I am at a loss because my therapist, friends, and support group do not know what to do with me. I have made the horrible mistake of separating my consciousness from my body and dividing my consciousness into multiple pieces. The main two are a logical, level headed me, and an emotional anxious me. I can feel them fight for control over me. I (as a group?) live inside this body. The physical structure of my brain that gives rise to my consciousness is defective. AuADHD, can't focus, overstimulated easily, struggles to take care of myself and do things like a normal person. I do not like that my consciousness is influenced by these physical structures.My body, horrifyingly, is not(?) defective. At teenager age I was raped by male puberty. My body was violently masculinized against my will. My bodily autonomy and safety violated my own body. The worst part is that this was "working as intended" and "business as usual" from a biological perspective. My body was designed to rape me and now I am left to clean up the damage. I have been on HRT for a year and a half (early 20s) and things have gone well enough and I feel better about my body than I have ever have, coming to terms with what happened to me as destroyed my mental health and supercharged my dysphoria to focus on my insecurities. I have hair I shouldn't. My genitals will never function like a cis woman's. Etc. I don't understand how this has happened. I used to be able to function better (not perfect) and I had more regular joy and whimsy in my life, and since my realizations two months ago my mental health has slowly declined. I do not want to die because I have friends and hobbies I want to live for. I'm not ugly and even pass sometimes. But I have no idea how to overcome or cope with these feelings. I thought I knew dysphoria inside and out but this is new even for me. Sorry to dump this here but this is a cry for help I am seeking expert opinionsArt by me sadly
>>41737197Hello, you are not seeking expert opinions, you are seeking asnwers from fellow retards on 4chan. If you want expert opinion the go talk to old people or smth.What my opinion is, that you have some form of split personality thingy, or just generally having an existential crisis. Having an existential crisis at this age is considered "normal" but it just is a pretty fucked fact about existance and how our brains are self-aware subjects in general.Biologically it might be explained that your brain is in the maturing phase, where you get really important abstract and emotional and social thinking, basically preparing you to face the real world.Overall though, you should look into somehow actualizing yourself and ypur thoughts, mayhaps through some form of art or other creative exercise
>>41737480Thank you for your reply. Yeah "experts" was not the best word choice. Moreso meant people who potentially have been down this road before. I did speak to a couple older trans woman about this. One of them made me feel worse, and the other one is probably correct in saying I'll grow out of it.The multiple personalities explanation has been on my mind but I would like to... not have that. Used to know someone with DID, really don't want to go down that path. Existential crisis is also likely, and yeah this is adjacent to things that psychologists and philosophers or whoever have been probably been studying forever. Being self aware is crazy. Definitely in the "maturing" age range. I think I'll dip my toes into researching stuff about being self aware.I do think that creating art or writing about this would be a good outlet for me and hopefully help me work through all of it. I appreciate you pointing that out and for your other insight.
I sort of relate to this splitconsciousness stuff, even if I ult8mately know it's fake as shit. I dunno.
>>41738110I don't think it's fake? I would love to hear more about your experience with this.For me the split happened because when I am upset, anxious, etc. it can feel like irrational thoughts are overriding what I believe my "normal" is. The "Normal Me" who is calm and logical looses control of the wheel (as illustrated above) and another force gains it. My BF points this out to me. That sometimes I'm in dysphoria depression land inside my head and his words might as well not matter because I won't listen or think logically. I needed an explanation for that. I try not to demonize the emotional and frantic side entirely. I don't want to make a part of myself a villain. I hope she is capable of feeling good things too but it's hard to tell the other times she might come forward.Does that resonate with you at all? Out of curiosity.
>>41737197You should fuck them.
>>41738616I wouldn't say that my experience is based on an emotional split so much as a split between d8ifferent thought patterns/schemas that tend to be in effect at different times. e.g. a religious schema, "boy" schema, etc. I guess it's weird to conceptualize how one's feelings can change over time over just a few days or so, so that one transitions from feeling like a boy who needs to detrans to a girl who feels like she needs to girlmode. Or having upswings in piety at random moments. These schemas are attached to characters that I imagine having conversations with sometimes. Attaching them to persons is something I actively fostered when I was a teenager and coping hard with masculinizing and having zero friends and running into 'plurals' and the like in the reddittroon ecosystem. But I think it'd be weird to say they're real people. Also I don't have any trauma or anything like that.Awareness of schemas vs having a more unified consciousness has varied a lot over the years but it never really went away even after I accepted it's fake as shit and a sad larp I'm doing with myself. But I think the underlying schema stuff has explanatory power for how I think.
>>41737197everyone is plural, your brain is made up of millions of independently processing neurons. don't sweat it, you'll be fine. just do some narrative journalling if you feel like you need it, like socratic dialogues or a comic strip or smthi like your artwork btw
>>41738761Honestly you're right it would actually be really hot. Who's topping and who's bottoming though?>>41738789This is very interesting to hear. Different thoughts for different modes of thinking, and they are represented by different characters that talk to each other. I actually like it as a representation of the mind it's neat. Also good that you don't say that they're real people though because that's what my old friend did and it got out of hand very quickly. Thank you for sharing!>>41738800I guess that does makes sense, huh. Like the other anon mentioned I do think that expressing this via some form of art will be good for me. And thank you! I put it together very messily in MS Paint. My BF is a real artist but can do little doodle people and I was trying to mimic some of the stuff he's made for me. Gonna ask him to teach me.
>>41737197this is nonsense, things only happen cos they have metabolic meaning, take that away and it becomes inert, and it's quite literally impossible to isolate 'thought' outside of that contextthis 'consciousness' exists for the body, rather than the other way around
>>41739023The body concentrates consciousnessThe universe is also consciousness
>>41739164no, that's just words, and the only reason u can make up those words is cos u secured the atpfail to do so at some point, and u will not be conscious enough to find out where that leads tbqh
>>41738616nta my brain and ego are definitely separate i tell my brain to go fuck itself whenever it has an intrusive thought. i have had my brain chant "listen to me listen to me" to break through whatever trance i was in while playing a game just to think about some dumb shit and that annoyed me and kinda solidified the fact there is a secondary mind aspect, idk how normal people dont have this its kinda useful to know i can offload info to my brain but it also makes me talk aloud to separate the two streams of consciousness. its weird and autistic but i feel more whole by trying to work with it than take control because my brain and ego are a symbiosis
>>41739245You choose to not type words properly or legibly in the age where you can say what you want to type out loud and have it typed for you, so don't be so full of yourself.If you want to prove me wrong then create living DNA from space dust, the same way we were made. Or just create a universe. Before we were born we were of space dust and oblivion, and no matter that isn't alive can spontaneously give birth to another organism that is alive. Our universe has rules, one is consciousness. Another rule is that energy isn't lost or gained, it just moves and changes forms. We are a form of energy.
>>41737197is that art really called "be done"?its beautiful..........
>>41739420what are u talking about? u keep typing stuff but that doesn't make it true, it's pre-modern nonsense acting like there is such a thing as a disembodied consciousness, when the correct interpretation should be radical embodimentu reference rules of the universe when what u mean is idealizations and models created by living organisms, no proof is necessary, cos u post since u live, and when u cease living so does ur nonsensespacedust has nothing to do w/ it, since it is inert, like how rocks can store energy just like neurons in a brain but are also otherwise inert tbqh
>>41739471Sorry, I guess you're too young to really understand or participate in a discussion requiring intelligence. Think about the words I wrote and talk to an adult who can tell you what the big words mean, okay?
>>41739490yeh I'm just a middle aged neuroscientist and philosopher, but do pop off
>>41739245>>41739471i don't get your point. if consciousness is strictly a product of metabolic mechanisms, then doesn't it make even more sense to view it as a machine that is discrete from, yet interdependent with, the rest of the body, like an engine is to a car?i'm not gonna defend the schizo >>41739420 , but they make a semantic point, which is that "consciousness" exists separately only on a superficial level, and that this distinction can occasionally be quite useful
>>41739504You've supposedly reached middle age but still haven't figured out consciousness... that's rough. Guess that's why we let the real scientists and real philosophers think about this stuff instead. Science doesn't deal with being, that's what psychology and ontology is for. Your science credentials carry nothing in this subject matter, and your idea of philosophical discussion seems to be "no its not". So it's easy to mistake you for a edgy young materialist who thinks we are made of only physical matter.
>>41737197I mean isn’t everyone part Apollonian, part Dionysian? Go listen to Hemispheres by Rush or something.
>>41739458"be done" is the name of a song from binding of isaac, i'm assuming they were listening to it while drawing
>>41739023Holy word salad Batman. What the hell is even the point of what you're saying? Yes the consciousness is brought about from the existence of the body. But humans are self aware we obviously have thoughts that go beyond just instinct. Creativity and stuff. Are you stupid?>>41739323Yeah even before this whole can of worms opened in my head I would talk and have conversation with myself. I've also had the intrusive thoughts. I guess I didn't even think about the fact that normal people don't have that?? I definitely am not fighting with my mind all of the time. I still talk to myself sometimes but the intrusive thoughts have gotten less frequent since I started medicating my ADHD. Huh.>>41739458"Be Done" is a track off of the Binding of Isaac (Flash) OST I think it just encapsulates the mood well. Thank you though <3
>>41739023retard
>>41739023only correct anon in this thread
>>41739245I know we're on 4chan so its laughable to say touch grass but like. You know.Anyway I was getting a degree in this shit so time to yap I guess? Word salad aside, have you ever considered that maybe we are more than our biological function? We are a miracle of science and evolution- we aren't single-celled organisms anymore, and i think splitting hairs over whether the consciousness exists for the body or vice versa is pointless. We've evolved beyond that point, and they really go hand in hand at this point. We are a horribly complex system of being, and reducing the complexities of the brain and identity down to metabolic function alone is a disservice to critical thought. We do not make art or music or write for metabolic reasons. We don't need them to survive, but life becomes far less interesting if we neglect our desire to create. The consciousness yearns for freedoms beyond what is necessary for survival alone, and that is what give us life.Tldr because I just served up a fresh yappuccino; we are more than a single celled organism, and its honestly disingenuous to reduce us to as much in a discussion surrounding humanity and complexities of thought.You can be as nihilistic about this as you want, but like... sometimes you just gotta go outside, man. We are more than science. Reducing us to a body and denying us discussion of our conscience and humanities is dumb shit
>>41739023>>41739617explain the universe's causality, 99.99999999999% of which has nothing to do with organic metabolism.if things only happen when observed by metabolic beings, then it follows that we were spontaneously made while being observed.
>>41739504and youre on 4chan? yikesbetter get back to that philosophy degree if you still think like that bro
>>41739566i personally like to think of it as part aphrodisian, part hephaestian, but to each their own.i think camille paglia (boo hiss) refers to them as apollonian and chthonic, which i always liked better than neitzshce just pitting two gods, that are almost never linked in greek mythology, against each other
>>41739557nah, u can only make the distinction cos ur metabolizing, it puts u in motion and makes things matter in ever more complex ways, not as something distinct, like thinking the fuel tank in the car drives it and the rest is unnecessarya unity of brain, body, and environment dissolves the issue of dualism and disembodied minds, not as a thing that can be held fixed, but a deeply relational activity in constant motionwhich is why it should be radical embodiment, rather than disembodiment, which would be a theoretical construct w/ no causal powersyet embodiment has causal powers, necessarily so, nobody can deny that we know of no examples w/o it, and so denying those contingencies is at best a thought experimentconsider the idea of a minimal self for the consequences of why the body mattershttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SI8KDiS6tlU>>41739565yeh I only have baby words to describe what u post like panpsychism and delusional, but don't let me keep u from quantum meditation and entangling w/ the double helix to rewrite ur consciousness into the cosmic rays emitted by the starsI'm sure it makes sense to somebody, maybe tell ur psychiatrist tbqh
>>41739653>quantum meditation and entangling w/ the double helix to rewrite ur consciousness into the cosmic rays emitted by the starsYikes, you actually believe in those scams? Hey, we're talking about actual ontology, not that snake oil shit. Try to stay on topic.
>>41739630I didn't reduce it, I blocked a nonsensical reduction leading to an erroneous abstraction, think it thru
>>41739653i mean, an engine is certainly going nowhere with out a car, or a driver to put gas in it, but you would not say "there is no such thing as an engine, it's all just car", would you not ?sometimes it can even help to isolate the engine from the system, for repairs and such (psychotherapy).also, bro in the youtube video literally has the "brain in two" decal on his laptop, a symbolic representation of precisely this arbitrary, yet pragmatic, distinction
>>41739675I choose to not be a materialist, because believing only in materialism is missing the other half of the picture. And I won't consider the viewpoint of people like you who call themselves "philosophers" but are closed off from all viewpoints other than their own. I recognize that we are also spiritual beings. Universes don't make themselves.You think it through.
>>41739718Pags this is OP I don't know who you are but you're very cool for arguing with this dumbass and for knowing about Isaac can we kiss
>>41737197Sounds like CPTSD desu and I’m sorry. Living with that can be really brutal, and if you think about it, a preconscious mind engendered in an opposite sexed body exists is in a very traumatic condition that only gets worse with puberty. But over time the insurmountable aspects will become easier to accept, and you’ll feel a lot more whole as you align the rest of your body and life closer to who you were meant to be. Just keep pushing, you got this babe
>>41739675word salad lmaoof course you think this makes you sound smart, youre 12
>>41739718no, no, I would say that the car does not exist for the engine, and that anyone that claims such has become conceptually confused, nor does the engine drive the carthe issue is that ur not isolating just an engine, ur isolating the 'driving' as if it is a thing unto itself, rather than an activity that requires the collaboration of the whole>>41739740it's not strictly materialist tho, that's just a useful assumption to dismiss changing ur viewsthink it thru, I am making no reductions here, cos I am not claiming to carve our necessarily dependent parts
>>41739742omg u know isaac ccan we kiss
All philosophy stems from misunderstanding words
Umaruchan, are you single?
>>41739588what do conversations with yourself sound like?is it like a way for the different parts of yourself communicating? are you aware of it when it happens?i find myself speaking my thoughts aloud to myself quite often - i'm not always aware of it though, i will catch myself doing it. frequency increases when i'm "doing well" and when i'm depressed it pretty much never happens
>>41739742just your friendly neighborhood bog witchalso, let me ask my partnerokay they said yes :3>>41739786group kis
I just want to take a moment to reflect on the irony of accusing anyone of word salad in a schizo thread about separating the mind from the body.
>>41739775>ur isolating the 'driving' as if it is a thing unto itselfhave you never taken a defensive driving course? it is absolutely possible to separate the driving as a system unto itself, in fact, we would not be able to quantify it in terms of 'driving exams' and 'licences' if we didn't. so, i would say considering them as discrete things is actually quite useful>>41739790based and wittgenstein-pilled
Since we are just saying random shit: The reason why one can cause an sense of existential panic when thinking excessively about existence is due to the mental distance meta thought produces. In the process of both being and thinking of being there is a space created where one may observe what is taken for granted at unnatural angles. These angles are created through words that do not reflect materialist reality. For example "what created the universe" has no actual meaning since the universe is the begining of causality. In a similar manner, when one lucid dreams and tells the inhabitants of their dreams that they are in a dream, the inhabitants typically try and scare the dreamer awake. While we sleep parts of the brain shut off and the brain, which is normally a whole, becomes a multitude of partially seperated faculties. Brining a conscious awareness to these spaces and reflecting it back at the isolated faculties that hallucinate dreams creates a space similar to that of an existential crisis. The meta thought causes a feeling of unease which is expressed through the dream people transforming into something scary.
>>41739873no, no, I specified it's an activity, which conforms to ur examples, it is not however like an object unto itself, separable from its constitution and dependencies
>>41739751I am going to bed because I have work in 7 hours and I have a feeling the thread will disappear overnight but thank you for this. I will do my best. Things have a tendency to work out eventually.>>41739827Group kis :D
>>41737197It sounds like the problem is that you have multiple, situationally dependent, facets to ur personality yet no larger executive system to contextualize and balance them. Which tracts with AuDHD. Personality is something you build not something u are. U build it as a relation between ur verbal mind and emotional mind. U probably have low intrapersonal effectiveness which is keeping this fron happening. Just learn to listen to urself more in a soft nonjudgmental way. u will naturally develope out of this. Just remember suicidal thoughts will get in the way since ur emotions wont want to talk to u if they are angry/scared at u for harassing them with thoughts of death constantly
>>41739904driving is not an object unto itself, and yet, it is entirely separable from the constitution of a car. for example, you can hold a cardboard steering wheel and simulate 'driving' around your house, in order to practice or replicate any particular facet of driving, such as following traffic signs
>>41740020goodnight kis
>>41740219either ur now confusing epistemic w/ ontological, or u allow for sentences like 'driving a car without a car', I have not said concepts can't be separated epistemically, but talking as if such a separation has causal powers is another matter entirelyI mean u say u like wittgenstein but the op is a clear example of language going on holidaymetabolism isn't a fixed material structure either, it is also an activity, the basic activity of life more or lessbut it's like saying 'oh yeh I separated my metabolism from my cells' it's not an incorrect sentence, but it's nonsense, and claiming it's nonsense doesn't reduce everything to material determinism eitherflawed abstractions are possible, wittgenstein understood that, conceptual confusions, and wittgensteinian philosophers have argued that cognitive neuroscientists commit a mereological fallacy by over-ascribing to the brain, but op's position isn't even that, it's the position that those scientists are then being accused of devolving into: dualismmaybe u have a different read on that tho, but I'm not waiting to read it tbqhokay I separate driving from all forms of motion, nonsense, it's all nonsense, language is on holiday tbqh
