There's a lot of discourse about whether cis women can be AGP. I'm not here to answer this question once and for all, it heavily depends on how you define and understand AGP. One thing is clear: cis women who experience autosexuality or self-centered arousal in any form have vastly different experiences from AMABs who are aroused by the idea of being female. It is kind of hard to fantasize about something that you already do irl, like for instance AMAB AGPs frequently fantasize about masturbating while being in a female body, while cis women just do that on a regular basis and don't think about it in an unusual way. In order to know if cis women have the capacity to be AGP, they would have to wake up in male bodies with dicks and testosterone. You could think of FtMs with forcefem kinks, but they can't really be considered cis women. Or one could compare fully transitioned MtFs with cis women in order to determine AGPness, but still, there's a substantial difference in essential early experiences with gender (aka socialization). Girls are rarily taught that femininity is something wrong and shameful, while boys are being told this all the time.You ask yourself whether cis women experience AGP too in order to depathologize it. But independently from whether cis women have similar experiences or not, AGP is not wrong. The points brought against AGPs are identical irrational points that were brought up against the gays in the 60s. They were also made to believe that they are sick and a threat to society. Also, if you need to validate yourself in your gender identity, keep in mind that men don't really fantasize about being women. You thinking that they do is you projecting things onto them.
>>41901959>AMAB AGPs frequently fantasize about masturbating while being in a female bodyYeah I think that's weird I've have seen some of my cis male friends describe what is AAP so I don't see why AGP can't be a thing in women.
agp is so boooooring
>>41901959i am only agp as a coping mechanism because i hate being female>You could think of FtMs with forcefem kinksyea thats me>a substantial difference in essential early experiences with gender (aka socialization)not real btw
Is this AGP:I'm a cis woman.Seeing a man humiliate himself by dressing up as a girl makes me really aroused.
>>41903341No. There's no "auto" component in that.
>>41903341this is something totally differentAGP is about being aroused by your own (existing or imagined) femininityand you're just into sissies but not into being a sissy yourself
>>41901959I don't think this is relevant to anything, I think the existence is proven by the opposite also being true in woman who get off on being a man sexually, the question of if cis men get off to being a man is irrelevant just as irrelevant as cis woman can be agp, we already know these things exist
>>41902032>not real btwWhy do you think that socialisation isn't real?
>>41901959It is wrong though. Being gay is a sexual orientation, being AGP is a fetish. I'm fine letting actual trannies transition but if you want to change your entire body because it gets you off you shouldn't be allowed out in public.
>>41902001What have they described?>>41902032Socialisation is so obviously real. Women are raised differently to men, and there are ways each sex carry themselves that belie this. I can tell a pooner from a mile away because they're too cautious and refined and neat. And I can guarantee a cis woman would always be able to clock me because I'm so boisterous and crude and dirty.
>>41903657>if you want to change your entire body because it gets you off you shouldn't be allowed out in public.unironically, why?why should your right to be out in public depend on your intentions and not on whether you actually do measurable bad stuff?you basically want thoughtcrimes to be a thing
>>41903706What are you going to do when you walk past a school in the body you've warped for a fetish? Sex should be kept to the bedroom. Trooning out should be restricted to people who suffer dysphoria, or else we risk making every tranny look bad.
>>41901959Didn't read
>>41903841>What are you going to do when you walk past a school in the body you've warped for a fetish?nothing particular, that's a non-issue>Sex should be kept to the bedroom.if human bodies are inherently sexual, should all humans not be allowed to leave any bedrooms?>Trooning out should be restricted to people who suffer dysphoriawhat if you suffer crippling dysphoria AND are have a huge fetish for becoming a woman?
>>41903862didn't care
>>41903841Dysphoria and fetish are the same underlying phenomenon of agp, just expressed differently
>>41903885>that's a non-issueWalking past a school dressed in effectively fetishwear isn't an issue?>if human bodies are inherently sexualThey aren't inherently sexual. But a female body is inherently sexual for a man with a fetish for becoming a woman. What reason does he have for living in one otherwise?Like, if a podiatrist asks to see your feet then it's a perfectly normal thing. But if Quentin Tarantino asks to see your feet you should run away.>what if you suffer crippling dysphoria AND are have a huge fetish for becoming a woman?AGP precludes the existence of dysphoria. An AGP man can never be a tranny. We have to rep.
>>41903984>WeTroon out, repper
>>41903984Body dysphoria is AGP. It's the anatomic autoandrophobic component of AGP.
>>41903984>school dressed in effectively fetishwearthen criminalize wearing fetishwear in public, not transitioning for a fetish. these are 2 different things.>But a female body is inherently sexual for a man with a fetish for becoming a woman. What reason does he have for living in one otherwise?this is not enough of a reason to forbid someone from being in public. Should furries also be screened for having some sort of a fetish and if they do forbidden from wearing fursuits?>AGP precludes the existence of dysphoria. An AGP man can never be a tranny.this does not answer my question. I didn't ask what comes first, I asked what if these 2 things cooccur>Weohyou're the guy who spammed the last AGP thread with ropefueljeez pls leave this website and get help or kysi concede to whatever you want but pls don't spam this board with seetheslop
>>41903964>>41904040Dysphoria is a serious illness currently cured by transitioning. AGP is a dirty fetish for gross old men. There is not a fetishistic component to a serious and tragic illness.>>41904025I'm not trooning out for having AGP. If I want to get rid of the thoughts I just go masturbate. I don't want to take hormones and end up roping in the post-nut clarity.
>>41904065AGP is not a fetish. It can lead to the development of fetishes, but AGP itself is autoheterosexuality, and dysphoria is the distress of effectively being forced to live with a partner of the wrong sex 24/7.
>>41903341>Seeing a man humiliate himself by dressing up as a girl makes me really aroused.What about if he goes all the way to getting SRS?
>>41904056Pretty sure furry communities try and keep a tight lid on all the fetishists. Anyone trying to do fetish things in non-fetish spaces is hated. Also anthropomorphic animal costumes aren't the same as literally changing your body.>I asked what if these 2 things cooccurHow could they? Someone with dysphoria will be too depressed to fantasise about being a woman.>>41904090>but AGP itself is autoheterosexualitySo they want to transition because they find the body sexy. That's just a fetish. Dysphoria is a result of a chemical imbalance in the brain, like all diseases.
>>41904125>Dysphoria is a result of a chemical imbalance in the brain, like all diseases.Transmed cope.Most intersex people donnot experience dysphoria and do not transition despite having hormone imbalances severe enough to affect physical sex development.Dysphoria is an AGP phenomenon.
>>41904142Okay, so it's all a fetish? No one should troon? Why do so many trannies rope if it's all just AGP?
>>41904125 Also anthropomorphic animal costumes aren't the same as literally changing your body.so, whether you are allowed to have certain characteristics of your appearance in public depends not only on your intentions, but also if this characteristic is permanent? what's the logic? >Someone with dysphoria will be too depressed to fantasise about being a woman.??fantasy is cope
>>41904160You haven't understood what I've been saying. AGP by itself is not a fetish. If anything it's a sexual orientation. AGPs are heterosexual but they are also their own partnering target. If they don't transition then this leads to distress because they're effectively forced into a gay relationship they cannot escape. That distress often takes the form of hating their natal sex characteristics i.e. dysphoria. Sometimes they attempt to relieve the distress and frustration by cross-dressing in an attempt to see their partnering target (themselves) as the opposite sex. Sometimes that makes them horny because they're finally seeing their partner as the correct sex for their sexuality, and a fetish ensues. Other times the relief is so overwhelming that they cross-dress more and more until they're doing it full time.Transition can help with the distress and should be offered to them. The point is not that "AGP bad and should be repressed." The point is to reduce distress and enable a workable life.
>>41903657Wait but AGP causes mental anguish through ETLE
>>41904229AGPs in denial have a vested interest in mischaracterizing what AGP is
>>41904240If your entire philosophy regarding a condition is built on believing that everyone with said condition is lying about their experiences, then maybe your philosophy is bullshit?
>>41904090>>41904203>>41904229>autoheterosexuality>partnering target (themselves)>ETLEfucki summoned unironiocal blanchardists with this threadhow do i start with explaining how blanchard's typology is a textbook example of poorly conducted science? do i really have to do this? do i want to do this?
>>41904267I'm not a Blanchardian. He fudged the numbers because he wanted to show a correlation with sexual orientation. The real correlation is with severe lifelong undervirilization.
>>41904267I mean Blanchard's model is the only thing that actually has a model for trannyism. Everything else is just a loose assortment of vaguely true-sounding things.>>41904167>fantasy is copeBut a person with true dysphoria wouldn't make it through the fantasy without breaking down. I can use the fantasies to get rid of it. Once I finish masturbating I stop thinking about it for a while. >Transition can help with the distress and should be offered to them.But trying to sell that to cis women isn't going to work. Being in a relationship with your own body sounds like something out of My Strange Addiction. We're better off not looking in the mirror and conditioning ourselves into a more masculine sexual role with pornography.
>>41901959AFABs can't have AGP.Only AAP.>>41903341No.
>>41904384The AGP denialism is hilarious.>agp isn't real>but most cis women have it>and it's only the ugly old men who hate being male, not skinny young men who hate being male
>>41903670>What have they described?They talked about how they looked in the mirror and jerking off to how hot they are
>>41904298>I mean Blanchard's model is the only thing that actually has a model I mean yeah the model seems appealing bc it gives us 2 specific cathegories This doesn't mean it's accurate or clinically relevant>wouldn't make it through the fantasy without breaking down.kind of true bc what comes up must come down. once you realize your fantasy is just a fantasy, then it hurts. yet, humans tend to escape into temporary relieves even if it's ultimately not good for them.>conditioning ourselves into a more masculine sexual role with pornography.you will struggle to find 1 modern sexologist who would support this
>>41904384>>41904427I think if AMABs can have AAP then AFABs can have AGP I don't see why they can't have it
>>41904427Really? Are they gay or something? Who would do that?>>41904405As in only ugly old men have it?
>>41904446Young AGPs in denial will insist that only old AGPs are actually AGP.
>>41904384i meanwe kind of know, but that's not the point of the thread
>>41904446>Really? Are they gay or something? Who would do that?I don't think they're gay, they definitely like women, but, I also doubt they're bi desu
>>41904405ehh it's weird to think it the other way around tooit's agp to fantasize about being fucked in your pussy unless you have a pussy, thanks srs cured agp
>>41904427>>41904442prediction: >>41904384 anon will tell you that this is not AAPalso confidently saying that 0% of women "looked in the mirror while jerking off to how hot they are" is borderline borderline
>>41904405What is your definition of AGP?>>41904442AAP in AMABS is just normal male sexuality, it's not really AAP but it might seem like it AGP in AFABs is just normal female sexuality, it's not really AGP but it might seem like it
>>41904479I can only jerk off to myself if I imagine I'm male.
>>41904490AGP is autoheterosexuality in males.
>>41904490>being aroused by the concept of your own femininity is normal female sexuality but only if you're afabtry again but without the double standard
>>41904452I'm AGP and I'm a young man. I don't want it though. It feels like an old man's disease. >>41904465That's really weird. Are they just getting off to the idea of being a man? They're not attracted to any features or anything? Do they like the feeling of power? I do not understand how anyone can view the male body with anything but revulsion.
>>41904437It's the best we have. The scientific method requires something to be replaced or disproved before it's gone. >you will struggle to find 1 modern sexologist who would support thisWhy? I've given myself plenty of fetishes through porn. If I can give myself AGP through forcefem content I can take it away with masculine porn.>>41904509Men aren't supposed to be feminine. To enjoy an unnatural role is a fetish.
>>41904541Hypogonadal men often cannot help being feminine.
>>41904541>It's the best we have.There was a time when Freudian psychoanalysis was the best they had. But even back then it was as wrong as it is today.>I've given myself plenty of fetishes through porn.then, I'd assume you have already tried this and it didn't work. You can't just modify your sexuality freely by exposing yourself to stuff and you not being able to turn a gay straight is a perfect example>Men aren't supposed to be feminine. somehting something ad naturamWhy? By which standard? Who determines this?
>>41904524>I'm AGP and I'm a young man. I don't want it though. It feels like an old man's disease.There is no way those old men were thinking like you when they were your age. Absolutely no way.
The infinite loop of chuddy reppers coming on this board to le own the troons and rep with fax and logic and eventually cracking is getting so old after seeing it for 12 years. Groundhog day except now its fucking annoying zoomers doing it
>>41904573>But even back then it was as wrong as it is today.Okay but it was the most correct any psychologist had been at the time. And it was only proven wrong by other psychology. So until we have a better model than Blanchard, the scientific method demands we keep using it.>I'd assume you have already tried this and it didn't work.I'm trying it right now. I didn't realise how much I was ruining my life until I ended up a full blown AGPer.>Who determines this?Evolution? You can't tell me men and women act the same. Men are wired to act a certain way and women are wired to act another. You can't break that boundary except with gender dysphoria.>>41904617I can't imagine them as anything other than old sissy John50s. When they were younger they probably didn't have it. Or acted on it in an equally fucked up way. Like becoming drag queens.
>>41904739>You can't tell me men and women act the same. Men are wired to act a certain way and women are wired to act another.This is largely driven by hormones. Estrogen and Progesterone change how your brain works. >I can't imagine them as anything other than old sissy John50s. When they were younger they probably didn't have it.So you are probably way younger than me... I had dysphoria from the start of puberty. I repressed it for 20 years. Ended up trooning out when I was 35. The dysphoria was my constant companion until I trooned out, but being brought up as a man, I thought it was my duty to deal with it.
>>41904739>So until we have a better model than Blanchardblanchard is not recognised as current state of the art when it comes to treating trannies. literally "treating dysphoria by transition" is a better model if you will>I didn't realise how much I was ruining my lifebut it kind of seems as if you were still seething. you are not any different from a gay man who believes that being gay is wrong and tries to cure himself by watching naked women>Evolution?evolution has no intention. "fit" does not mean "morally good". but if you believe otherwise, go off the internet, touch some grass, go for a barefoot walk, evolution clearly didnt want you to sit in front of a screen and talk to strangers online>Men are wired to act a certain way and women are wired to act another. You can't break that boundary except with gender dysphoria.true but also not exactly bc humans are super random and human brains are super plastic. gendered behaviours are mostly determined by socialization and hormones and only slightly, if at all, by "brain sex".
>>41901959it isn't an experience, it's a type in a typology, to be that type one must be transsexual, the rest is just silliness
>>41904833And what about when transition fails? When it makes dysphoria worse by showing that living as the opposite sex is impossible for someone?
>>41904860>what if transition fails?what if chemotherapy fails? what if knee surgery fails? you just make a risk-benefit analysis. >When it makes dysphoria worse by showing that living as the opposite sex is impossible for someone?idk how that's worse than never trying and living your whole life thru regret, thinking how you couldve at least tried
>>41904845if the typology describes something relevant, people of this type should have some shared experiences
>>41904781>Estrogen and Progesterone change how your brain works.But I haven't taken any of them and I still suffer from it. How did I end up like this?>I had dysphoria from the start of puberty.But you aren't like them. You have real dysphoria, not a fetish. My urges only came about at 18. This is a classic sign of AGP.
>>41902022thismef is where it's at it's like you can feel your lifelong desire to be persecuted and shamed for existing and letting it out
>>41905872AGP dysphoria can begin during or before puberty too. The notion that early onset ≠ AGP is false: a combination of historical artifacts of typical ages of seeking treatment and AGPs backdating their dysphoria to try to appear less AGP.
>>41903341humiliate how? like cause he can't fully embody it because of his biology but seems like he really wants to and then fails and looks like fag or just acting like a clown deliberately do you want to shame a man or find the bitch lol
>>41901959AGP is probably as common in males as most variants of bisexuality.
>>41905887No, I said I have AGP. Anon has real dysphoria brought on by the start of puberty.
>>41903341>>41903369>>41903373>>41904091>>41904384>>41905893>i'm a cis woman
>>41905945AGP and "real dysphoria" are the same phenomenon.
>>41905904how so?
>>41904833>blanchard is not recognised as current state of the artAnd yet he's the only one who recognises AGP as a phenomenon. A blanket 'let's transition everyone' ignores the realities of trannyism and fetishism.>you are not any different from a gay man who believes that being gay is wrongBeing gay isn't a fetish? And it's not an illness like dysphoria either. They're entirely unrelated. AGP is more akin to bug-chasing or a cuck fetish.>>41904833>evolution clearly didnt want you to sit in front of a screen and talk to strangers onlineWe evolved to invent the computer. That's got nothing to do with the fundamental circuitry of the brain.
>>41906040>ignores the realities of trannyism and fetishism.good. whether you have a fetish is by modern standards irrelevant if you do experience persistent gender dysphoria. you treat dysphoria, not a fetish.>Being gay isn't a fetish?self-seething gays from 70 years ago were told otherwise about themselves. it doesnt really matter if you label it as a fetish or as a orientation, it's an immutable characteristic of your sexuality. Also, whats wrong with cuck fetish? >We evolved to invent the computer.we evolved to invent gender transition
>>41906095>you treat dysphoria, not a fetish.But if it isn't dysphoria and is instead a fetish then it should be ignored, not lived.>it doesnt really matter if you label it as a fetish or as a orientationI mean it does. Gay rights was almost entirely based on the fact that gay men were romantically attracted to other men, and weren't just living a fetish. If they were fetishists they'd probably still be consigned to gay bars, and it would be easy to ignore.>we evolved to invent gender transitionIn the cases of gender dysphoria, which is the explanation for why you feel the urge to do feminine things. In the case of AGP, it probably comes from the taboo feeling of liking feminine things when someone knows they shouldn't.Look, if AGP isn't a fetish, then why does it go away after masturbating? Am I expected to troon out and then just keep edging to maintain my desire to be female? Mine is a fetish, like any other.
>>41908345>why does it go away after masturbatingdoes it though
>>41908345that's a repper
>>41908738It does. I cum and then I don't want to be a girl and I can go do other things.>>41908742I literally only do this for sexual reasons. And it only appeared when I turned 18. Either this is a fetish or it's ROGD, neither of which are valid reasons to troon.
>>41904509AGP = an unnatural role in males.AAP = an unnatural role in females.That's the whole point..
>>41905958I'm a cis woman but also a repping poon so don't include me in this.
>>41908738>>41910988>I cum and then I don't want to be a girlidk about you but male post-nut clarity was one of the worst things for me and the moments i experienced it were the moments i felt the most dysphoria>>41911327>unnaturalis unnatural wrong? what are the implications of something being unnatural?jeez why are y'all so essentialist? why can't you see the world as it is and not how it "should" be according to "nature" and "evolution"?
>>41911330>i'm a femrepper yet i presented myself as a cis woman to receive my afab attention
>>41911370> i presented myself as a cis woman all reppers are cis. and I'm a lesbain anyways.
>>41911361It's unnatural because women aren't supposed to be masculine and men aren't supposed to be feminine.That's the whole appeal of AGP and AAP.And that's also why cis women can't have AGP while cis men can't have AAP.
>>41911380>lesbian>has a fetish for MEN who dress up
>>41911391Where I said I have fetish for men who dress up?
>>41911390>It's unnatural because i didnt ask why idc. i asked about what is wrong about it being unnatural. i like unnatural, i like it when i can eat my unnatural processed candy, use some unnatural electronic devices and paint my hair an unnatural color. >women aren't supposed to be masculinewhy? where problem, chud? what's wrong with people doing what they want and not hurting anybody?
>>41911361>idk about you but male post-nut clarity was one of the worst things for meBecause you have real dysphoria. Mine is a fetish that comes up and I have to masturbate to get rid of it. No one who does that should be allowed to transition.
>>41911396here: >>41903341or was it someone else? sry i confused u
>>41911416>i asked about what is wrong about it being unnatural.I never said there is anything wrong with it.It's just the reason why AMABs can't be AAP and AFABs can't be AGP.
>>41911422That's someone else
>an entire thread about how existence of cis agp is irrelevant>multiple replies about how cis women can or cannot be agpi think i failed to get the point across
