It's because we lack the female inner gender identity that gynephilic trans women possess.

>>41902667
I think this is it too. It seems more like I'm the Bad Type of autistic male than anything resembling a woman.

>>41902661
I think part of it is that we just have very different stories and a lot of "tranny culture" feels very othering.

>>41902661
Its the difference between autistic gay men and autistic straight men

>>41902671
My view is that I'm a very girly androphilic man who looks and acts like a woman.

>>41902661
They don't seem too different to me because even "transbians" are to varying extents, bi, whereas your "HSTS" is more like a Kisney 6 but even that has cracks, according to the writings here.

There's something about internalized attraction target that thus makes a person ambivalent to external targets. This is a trait found in AFaBs so commonly that it might be the only overlap between transwoman and woman.

>>41902678
Wonder if there's some sort of horseshoe going on here WRT identifying as a straight tranny.

>>41902677
I'm not a gay man. I'm a pseudoandrophile, really.

>>41902697
>Wonder if there's some sort of horseshoe going on here WRT identifying as a straight tranny.
WDYM?

>>41902701
I see myself as a borderline autistic, low-value male who is not gay, you see yourself as a very girly androphilic man. Very different, but we're both "straight trannies."

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I wish it was possible to have a community of just straight trans people without it being cannibalized by transbians

>>41902714
I think that would be nice and do wonders for my own acceptance. Every straight MtF I've talked to has been pretty pleasant. But I don't want to be, like, exclusionary or anything.
The problem is just that the non-straight trans experience is so radically different. Jennie June and Julia Serano, both great authors regarding the trans experience, are really different people and articulate really different experiences. I think the heavy fixation on the latter sort and nearly none on the former is what makes it so alienating. And community *of* straight trans women, or more articulating their experiences, could help ameliorate things.
Idk, now I'm rambling.

>>41902744
I feel alienated from my local trans community because most are transbians who seem to be very deadset on having a female internal identity.

Meanwhile I feel like I transitioned in part due to body issues and desiring male companionship.

Straight trans women here, I think its because transbians view lgbt community events as access to their entire dating pool, and so when a trans women isnt part of that pool they get ignored

>>41902825
>>41902848
All the transbians I've encountered have a strong sense of internal female identity. Moreover, they're proud of the fact they don't like men and they're simultaneously rejecting the imposition of masculinity upon themselves and from within. By being lesbian and trans, they've achieved the ultimate liberation from patriarchal society and stand firmly on that.
In my experience even taken transbians still have this sort of exclusionary behavior towards straight trans women. There were some at the trans[fem] events I went to who had wives and that didn't change how they treated me.
I suspect it's because we're viewed as patriarchal collaborators or gender traitors in another way.

>>41902879
Thats for sure part of it. Many of them seem to be total cismoid death type people and my interaction and love for cis moid chasers is seen as traiterous to "the movement"

>>41902879
I'm straight and I personally dont have a strong female identity I'm just me and I like being feminine and dating men it's not much more than that

>>41902879
It fucking sucks...

Especially when, despite not having a strong female internal identity, I'm more traditionally feminine?

>>41902902
I don't like saying this because it comes across as tooting my own horn but like. Whenever I read a transbian write something like "I cry so much more on estrogen! I can express my emotions" I'm almost confused. Despite relentless attempts to correct it I've cried routinely from infancy onwards, long before I started E. I couldn't even get in an argument without bursting into tears.

>>41902915
Same, I couldnt get into any type of confrontation without tears coming out

>>41902927
To add if anything estrogen and my supportive boyfriend have made me more comfortable with standing up for myself without crying now that I feel better about myself

Everyone is a unique special thing. One day you will die and there will never be another one of you in the world.

>>41902902
It's the difference between innate and performative gender nonconformity.
I'm a physically hypomasculine male because of partial androgen insensitivity. My body language reads feminine even when I'm trying to be masculine, because my physiology forces me into feminine movements. There's no deliberate performance.

>>41902661
there used to be a distinction between transbian and trans girl that just happened to be lesbian, now they're used synonymously to the exclusion of seeing any real difference
I don't think the current lines of division are that different at all, plenty of ppl don't engage w/ the larger 'trans community' especially online, as it has drifted more and more to basically a subculture of sex work, also distinct from the old sex work culture
of course, the question should be if u can participate in a straight relationship within the lgbtq++ etc community?? in some sense it makes sense that it would distract from this, whereas lesbians would inherently need to participate to some degree or remain single

>>41902915
Oh I cried so fucking much starting out. It was weird. But I also have other weird medical difficulties on E that I wanna figure out.

>>41903003
I used to cry a ton growing up but during puberty it got harder. Though I think part of it was antidepressants.

>>41902992
>the question should be if u can participate in a straight relationship within the lgbtq++ etc community??
Very astute question. Is the doll living as a straight woman or just another kind of fag?

transbians are delusional fags btw
if you cant into transbian delusions they wont like you

>>41903144
They're not, please don't steal valor

>>41903180
okay they are straight men who engage in gay sex with other straight men and that's delusional and gay but I cant call them delusional fags because its stolen valor

>>41903192
They're lesbians. Trans women are women

>>41903225
lark

>>41903028
I think it depends

Interesting, I feel this a little bit too. At the same time I don't know if I fit either very well, not straight enough to be straight but I still strongly prefer men. Just that I'm too autistic to be a straight tranny but too male-attracted for transbians.

>>41903890
Real tbhon

Vag bro (people who have srsussies and feel like men) meetup when?

>>41903225
kek
yet they are:
not AFaB
and attracted to
not AFaB

>>41902661
I don't understand a fucking word of what's being said here. I cannot make any sense over the self-derision, the ignorance, the repetition of one-liner memes, the meta bullshit.

>>41903913
Don't appropriate my thread please

>>41903225
You have to be born a woman to be a lesbian
troonsbians are straight men

>>41902661
Transbians take big smelly gorilla shits. Straight trannies take dainty little rabbit poops. Know the difference

>>41904028
>lol idgi
>describes everything perfectly

I am a transbian and have befriended strannies before. I think it helps that im just kind of retarded and funny so it smooths the differences over

>>41904410
Hussies who acknowledge their fake pussies stink too can be friends with jeeps who understand that not everywhere is appropriate for sexy talk

>>41904028
What exactly is unintelligible?

>>41902671
what if ur autistic in a girly way awawawa :3

>>41902661
>"Why are straight trans women and non-straight trans women so different?"
Straight and gay women are already different and have (some) different kulture (its more klear in the kase of gay women ,kuz straight kulture is the norm so things outside the norm stand out more)
Transbians seem to be dominant ,in part bekause some people in the trans 'kommunity' havent transitioned and so just have male sexuality (mostly into women ,a few into men or both) on average (maybe a bit skewed towards bisexuality or being into men by the hormone exposure that kan make someone a tranny) ,ontop of many just having male sexuality in general (on akkount of a lot of stuff) ,and so trans kulture tends to mostly be transbian

>>41902825
>"I transitioned in part due to... desiring male companionship"
A bit same tbo
Men like me more when a tranny then a bemboy

>>41902915
>"I cry so much more on estrogen!"
>"I couldn't even get in an argument without bursting into tears"
Im kinda both
Used to kry a lot whenever people (mostly my parents) yelled at me or got in a fight with me ,but then T hit and terrible konditions at home and at skool forsed me to toughen up emotionally
I kry way more on E now ,it feels like how I used to be

>>41904244
Ok then. So that's the point of these threads... good to know & I'm outta here.

>>41902661
the real differentiation between people is not man/woman nor male/female it's androphile/gynephile

>>41905209
Where do pseudoandrophiles belong here

>>41905209
this

i am a straight trans woman and i have literally never met another straight trans woman except on the internet unfortunately but i am in general pretty offline
but i would say i get along very well with trans women who are bi or even lesbian as long as they are not white. my theory is that they, like us, exist outside of the bizarre trans lesbian monoculture which we are all familiar with

>>41908610
I know two irl. One is the first trans woman I ever knew (though maybe she's not straight anymore) from college. The other is local and she's like a decade older than me.

>>41908623
i do really wish that i knew more older local trans women like that because i always find it inspiring to see them living relatively normal and fulfilled lives. i remember seeing a lot of older women at pride events who were invariably there alone which made me very sad.

>>41908681
I know a lot of older trans women, some who are only recently on HRT and some who have been on it for 10+ years.

But most are lesbians.

>>41902661
Literally just read Blanchard. It's the AGP/HSTS divide. Straight trans women have fundamentally different psychologies from troonsbians.

>>41908700
The AGP/HSTS divide isn't really from orientation, though. It's dysphorics vs those with hypogonadism.

>>41908707
Lmao, I haven't heard that one before. In my experience not all HSTS have hypogonadism.

>>41908739
As soon as people mention dysphoric androphiles people still just call them AGP or whatever.

>>41902661
transbians r just misandrists and that much hate every day corrupts ur mind and body

>>41908755
Well, a lot of "HSTS" are actually just meta-attracted AGPs who are LARPing as gay males, and some HSTS aren't that dysphoric, so there's some truth to it.

>>41909209
When HSTS are dysphoric it's different to typical AGP dysphoria, too.

>>41909219
What's the difference usually, then?

>>41902661
>Why are straight trans women and non-straight trans women so different?
they aren't, at least there isn't a real difference between straight and bi one, i guess you could make the case for transbian tho

>>41909223
HSTS genital dysphoria is that they don't like having their genitals touched, or using them penetratively. HSTS are obligate bottoms. They don't get dysphoria like AGP do merely from the fact of having male genitals in daily life, and certainly not to the point of dissociating over their bodies in daily life.

>>41909259
Hmmm, I think I get it. I flip flop between the two, but I wonder if it's because as I've feminized my thighs have gotten larger and now there's this constant sensory input there that wasn't there before.

When it's not there it's actually kinda fine. Sometimes even good. Just very odd and inconsistent.

>>41909219
I know some of them are, but talking to some HSTS it's just that they're naturally feminine, they like men, they'd be more comfortable as women so they take on the female identity and then a lot of the dysphoria comes from the conflict between the identity and reality. It seems less embodied but idk really

>>41909259
not what the typology say at all, but who even cares since it's pure dogshit, go outside

>>41909312
Huh, this is part of my case too. I flip flop between "well it makes more sense for me to be a woman, but my identity is a man" and "I hate being a woman trapped in a man's body."

I'm curious if there's any research done into people who exist simultaneously as both HSTS and AGP.

>>41909277
As an imperfect analogy, consider the horror and revulsion a typical straight man would feel about the idea of another man penetrating him anally. I suspect that would be similar to HSTS dysphoria.

>>41909312
If HSTS make it to puberty without transitioning, then they really try to make being a man work, and only transition if it doesn't. The reality that they are male sets in sometime between early childhood and puberty. They hit the gym, they try to bulk up, they try to find boyfriends as men. They want their bodies to be more masculine, not less, prior to giving up and transitioning.

>>41909317
I've actually read it an understood it. See http://individual.utoronto.ca/ray_blanchard/GID_Men.pdf which briefly touches on HSTS genital dysphoria.

>>41909328
HSTS typically get nonzero scores on the Core Autogynephilia Scale. (HSTS score 2-3; AGP score 5+)
Blanchard wrote that it's not clear that HSTS actually verbalize a female identity or a wish to be female as young children. Both HSTS and AGP backdate the onset of their desire to be the opposite sex when being assessed by clinicians.
It's not always easy to figure out which cluster best describes someone.

>>41909350
Wait fuck, am I HSTS??? I did try and masc out and did kind of succeed in forming my own kind of masculinity but like, didn't do well with finding a boyfriend. Or a girlfriend for that matter. I wanted to be a guy, kind of? Hard to say. Sometimes I really didn't want to but other times it seemed like the goal.

I don't like being touched down there, nor the idea of penetrating (very rarely it does come up and those times freak me out desu).

But I did also have AGP tendencies that were on and off.

I also have a genetic profile that points to strong ESR1 receptors, weak ESR2 receptors, low T, and high conversion of T to E, but I do have strong positive androgyny in bone structure as well. Plus a natural fagcent.

Weird.

>>41909328
If you experience any female attraction at all, you're AGP. I think some solely male-attracted trans women also experience something like AGP as well, as in they ilke to be feminized sexually (even if for different underlying psychological reasons).

>>41909370
Interesting. I didn't necessarily "want to be a girl" growing up but I did agonize over masculinizing and struggled a lot with androgyny. Thought I needed to be more masculine, but also really hated people seeing certain parts of my body. I know I could probably convince my past self to start E, but I think I would have to go back to specific days to do it.

>>41909385
It feels odd for it to just be one or the other, though. Wouldn't it make more sense to have it be a two axis chart or bimodal distribution rather than wholly discrete categories?

>>41909375
The precise nature of your "AGP tendencies" can be important. Behaviors can appear similar, but one might be AGP and the other not depending on the exact details.

A rough heuristic for whether you're likely HSTS or AGP is how you would answer the question, "If you were marooned on a desert island, with nobody else around and no hope of rescue, but with the means to medically transition, then would you transition?"

HSTS answer no, because their need to transition is driven by an external problem: being unable to fit in as men socially and romantically. If nobody else is around, then that problem is moot.
AGP usually answer yes, because their need to transition is driven by an internal problem: an unrelenting need to be the opposite sex. If nobody else is around, then they still have that problem.
(Less common types of AGP, like social AGP, might answer no, but anatomic AGP seems to be the most common type of AGP today by a large margin.)

>>41909385
This is incorrect. A very small minority (no more than 2%) of HSTS are not exclusively androphilic. The important part is that they transition for the same reason as androphilic HSTS: inability to find social and romantic success as men. They're a tiny minority (gynephilic HSTS) of a tiny minority (HSTS) of a tiny minority (transsexuals).

>>41909350
envious of madeline in this story

>>41909433
I've flip-flopped on my answer to the island question at times. I'm not really sure what my answer is anymore. Maybe like half a transition. Neutering and being an androgyne. The answer is chaotic and also influenced by other health issues.

I know I did begin transition in part for more male attention and tried to force myself to have a "better reason" for it though.

>>41909441
She had a happy ending, sure, but she had an awful childhood.

>>41909453
Why do you think you would do half a transition, if it were possible? What would be the motivation for removing your testes?

Transitioning for male attention is somewhat broad. Were you able to find and keep a boyfriend before transitioning? Or was transitioning the only way you could find a stable relationship?

>>41909467
I have weird sensory issues and various body parts and want those resolved, but also don't want to lose some of the things I've gained in transition. I have had weird "reverse dysphoria" issues as well, so it's like, I just wanna find something that works?

I was not able to find or keep a boyfriend. Just couldn't. I was awkward and off-putting.

>>41909484
Do you want to keep the body parts because they're necessary to keep a relationship, or do you want to keep them because gaining them resolved dysphoria?

Has transitioning improved your ability to find and keep a boyfriend? Was your awkwardness because you were behaviorally feminine, or because you were socially awkward in general?

I think sensory issues around having testes would be unusual in HSTS. It sounds like it could easily be a manifestation of anatomic AGP dysphoria, but I'm hesitant to say it's definitely that. Would you still want to remove them if they were completely numb to the touch? What about if they were smaller and more manageable, but still pumping out testosterone?

I'm not sure what you mean by "reverse dysphoria" issues.

>>41909530
I've had panic attacks over my boobs every now and then.

If my genitals were completely numb, I probably wouldn't remove them? I flip flop on removing them even now.

Finding and keeping a boyfriend is still tough but there's a lot of anxiety and guilt there. I tried transbian coping but it's not working out. Awkwardness was due to positive androgyny in physique, personal uncertainty, struggling to force masculinity, and being off-putting when I relaxed and was more feminine.

I want to keep body parts in part because my body changing has been kinda traumatizing and I'm afraid of making things worse. Also fear of surgery in general alongside general medical anxiety.

I do know I'm not trans the same way my sister was trans, at the very least.

>>41909565
Are you actually physically attracted to men? To women? I tried to make myself be attracted to girls when I was in high school in order to escape being called gay; it didn't work. "Transbian coping" if you're not actually gynephilic will likely be unfulfilling at best.

If transition hasn't helped you attract and keep a romantic partner yet you're continuing it anyway, then I don't think your transition can truly be said to be about finding romantic success anymore, unless you're not very far in (I usually regard 2 years HRT as the cutoff point, but that's probably a little too low).

Panic attacks over having breasts is not a good sign. Is being a woman for the rest of your life going to work for you? Women typically have breasts. I would definitely stay far away from any sort of bottom surgery, even just orchi, if you're flip-flopping. I don't know whether there's any treatment or therapy you could pursue to help with sensory issues, but I think that would probably be worth looking into before considering any sort of removal in your case.

Ultimately if you're in a bit of a gray area with respect to AGP/HSTS then I don't think it needs to matter. The model is about predicting transition outcome using sexual orientation. If your transition ends up successful, then does it matter if you're closer to AGP than to HSTS? There are good HSTS and bad HSTS. There are good AGP and bad AGP.

>>41909399
It is sort of one or the other though, most of the time. Female-attraction is the root of AGP, the dysphoria is ultimately centered in male attraction to women, so if you're female-attracted 98% of the time you're AGP.

>>41909433
Fair enough.

>>41909640
I am definitely attracted to men. Growing up I was attracted to women, but it was more appreciation? The thought of doing anything sexual with them felt weird unless I was emotionally close to them, and even then any occasional sexual urge felt invasive and monstrous. My urges towards guys those are fulfilling. It's like my attraction to women is in my head but my attraction to men is in my body.

I'm only 1.5 years on HRT, and 3 months of that was a short stint at detransitioning.

The breast panic attacks are weird. Sometimes it's "I've done this to myself for male attention." Other times it's struggling with positive androgyny. Other times it's just that they hurt. Sometimes it's just a nerve pain issue that affects my entire upper body.

There's definitely a psychological aspect to it, too. I could picture myself being an old man before, but struggle to picture myself as an old woman. I don't like picturing that old man. I'm also surprised to see a woman in the mirror at times. My older sister is also trans and straightforwardly AGP, and she really messed me up. I know I'm not trans the same way she was, but I really don't think I am "typical HSTS" either.

>>41909668
>I am definitely attracted to men.
Did you have sexual fantasies about doing non-penetrative things with a man, as a man, e.g. frotting or intercrural sex? If you did, then that points more toward HSTS. (I don't understand the reason why, but, Blanchard assigned a negative weight to anal bottoming on his Modified Androphilia Scale. I wonder if he viewed it as being an indicator of of meta-attraction for transsexuals.)

>The thought of doing anything sexual with them felt weird unless I was emotionally close to them, and even then any occasional sexual urge felt invasive and monstrous
Would it have been different if a woman were doing something sexual to you, as opposed to you doing something sexual to her? Those occasional urges feeling invasive and monstrous is something I'm inclined to say points toward AGP, in the sense of it violating the fantasy ideal of being a woman: "Real women don't have such impure thoughts about doing things to other women."

>I'm only 1.5 years on HRT, and 3 months of that was a short stint at detransitioning.
Let's say you're at the equivalent of a year in, for the sake of argument. I socially transitioned at around that point. I think it's fine to still feel awkward and scared at that point.

>The breast panic attacks are weird.
If it's a nerve pain issue, then you should probably get that looked at, not because you're transitioning but because pain sucks. You might have already gotten it looked at in which case ignore me. Do you think you can cope with having breasts for the rest of your life? What about if you got the nerve issue fixed? They're inconvenient, yes, but there's a difference between annoying and debilitating.

>I don't like picturing that old man.
At face value I'd say that sounds like autoandrophobia i.e. AGP. What about being a cool old man who was still spry and good-looking?

Don't post the answers if you don't want to. I'm not invested in you being in one thing or the other.

>>41902677
What if I'm an autistic bi man and don't really fit in or identify well with either?

>>41909749
Yes. I used to have fantasies about giving blowjobs to men. Intercrural is good too. Frotting is a no though. Don't want my penis to touch anything usually. Sometimes it's fine and other times it's good, but it's usually a no. Outside of sex I had fantasies of just being a good wife to a man. Doing this as a "man" felt off. Maybe internalized homophobia or weird sensory issues or just not feeling attractive enough to men. A twink worked though. I kinda saw transition as a way to get closer to a life as a twink I didn't really get to live as due to repression.

I often felt extremely awful about women being sexual towards me. It's especially bad now on HRT. I freak out at the idea.

I've also had weird medical issues. The softer skin weirds me out at times as well. Might be a sensory thing. It's like touching velvet and sometimes it feels good but it also feels weird under my fingers.

I'm on the wait-list for a neurologist for both the nerve pain and headaches and stuff.

A cool old man who is spry is cool. I used to often see myself as an old man trapped in a young man's body. But sometimes also a young boy trapped in an adult's body. Why it feels bad now is because it's both a feeling of being "fake trans" as well as a feeling of failure. Sometimes it's a feeling of not living up to it or guilt or something.

>>41909756
Still AGP

>>41902693
>internalized attraction target
Could you elaborate? Do you mean meta-attraction?

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Since there seems to be good feedback in this thread, what am I?
I'm only into men but mostly because of how feminine they can make me feel in comparison. I don't like my genitals, don't use them, but also don't want SRS because I don't like vaginas and it wouldn't give me the ability to be impregnated. I'm exclusively submissive and am "content" with anal. I totally lack the desire to penetrate.
I hated the changes I got at puberty but could not transition then or young due to my [homophobic, transphobic] parents.
Part of the reason I wish I were a woman is because I was bullied really badly for being "gay" growing up, male trauma response occurred, and I can't express myself or socialize like a woman can. I recognize there's not a fix for this so I don't consider myself a woman. I also didn't take HRT to date straight guys, but it is a nice bonus that men like me now. Previously, only very few bi men did. Gay men have never been interested in me and I don't consider myself gay.

>>41902661
personally i haven't noticed much of a pattern of differences between the two groups? at least not irl. i feel like i have a decent sample size and i've seen just as many straight tgirls that act like gay men as i have transbians that act like straight men and vice versa. on a related note i don't think sexuality is a good measurement for how "agp" or "hsts" someone is given how many completely straight trans women i've met that heavily match the agp standard

>>41910213
what are you,,? you should be my gf...

t. straight fat chaser

>>41910252
if it makes a difference i'm bi btw. i thought i was bi then i figured my attraction to women was jealousy of their looks and considered myself a gay repper until i trooned out and realized that i was actually also into women.

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>>41910259
My problem with this board is that it's like /r9k/, where it's just thinly veiled fetish bait and desperation from low value men with no real options. But what bothers me about this board is that r9k is a p*** board. This attempts to masquerade as a discussion-based forum. When the rubber hits the road, when the mask slips it's immensely frustrating. Frustrating. I can't express anything regarding my own emotions or introspection or sense of self without being drowned out by some chaser. Who thinks that he has a chance with somebody? He doesn't even know what what they look like. That some rando online on a post will somehow magically come out of a computer screen and just happen to like him someone they also don't know anything about. And none of you even consider my own agency or whether I'm taken or anything like that. It's literally just objectification for lack of a better term. It's ridiculous. It's invalidating. It's hurtful. It feels like I'm drowning. I hate people like you so much. I can't even articulate it.

>>41910213
>I can't express myself or socialize like a woman can. I recognize there's not a fix for this so I don't consider myself a woman.
functionally identical to an autistic straight cis woman. you're just a straight woman with a different reason for being awkward.
>>41910320
based too

>>41902961

Gender Performance is never deliberate though it's a culmination of social encouragement, imitation, repetition, and reward mechanisms until the behaviors become automatic, same as spoken language. Spoken language is also not natural in any way. a person can change their behavior consciously just as they can learn a new language but with enough practice (andif they start early enough to have the required neuroplastivity) the new performed behavior can become automatic and intuitive. But it is still performative.

I suggest reading Judith butler and vasic introductory texts about anthropology or queer theory. your gendered behaviors are performative, they are not natural and they do not stem from your body. Gendered behaviors frequently change over time, or even switch from one gender to the other occasionally (like wearing tights for example.)

>>41904207

Then how come they have sex with other trans women.

>>41902661
>WHY are people with different phenotypes so different WTF? WHAT THE FUCK?
wowowowowowoowow i dont fucking knooooow! let's get homophobic about it!

crazy to read a thread with people debating pseudoscience

>>41910623
Serano discusses the same vexation I have in Whipping Girl, but it bothers me when feminists and trans women (among others) become so lost in sociopolitical theater that they genuinely subscribe to blank slatism. None of what you are saying here is biologically supported.
Our current understanding of language is that it's something that only evolved with humans, and later neanderthals (with human interbreeding), due to the specific formation of the hyoid bone. Moreover, the speed at which human infants learn language suggest it is adaptive (evolved) and innate, and not forced. I unironically think a lot of you people need to take a biology specifically like an evolution course or something before you start speculating what is and what is not "natural."
I'm not saying there are no external modifiers on one's behavior, but to act like it's all arbitrary or external is just patently wrong. I wasn't putting on a performance when I cried way more than any other boy should as a kid and even into adulthood as a man. I wasn't putting on a performance when people thought I was gay just for doing what came naturally to me. Etc.

>>41910700
The latter part of the discussion is neat. I do think acknowledging that the pseudoscience is flawed for complicated cases is important to replacing the typology.

>>41911474
I don't really think so. Biology in general has a lot of fringe exceptions to rules; I recognize transsexualism and adjacent stuff is at the intersection of biology and psychology, but I don't see why it would be any different. Moreover, I can't imagine anyone is eager for a typology anymore, as "if you want to be a girl you can be a girl" is the narrative now among pro-trans people. A typology or etiology beyond "u have a girl brain" will be dismissed as trans med or eugenics or whatnot.

>>41910213
>I'm only into men but mostly because of how feminine they can make me feel in comparison
Interpersonal AGP
>I hated the changes I got at puberty
Anatomic AGP

>>41910252
There's a lot of meta-attracted AGP who think sleeping with men makes them HSTS. Any "straight trans girl" space is full of them these days.

>>41910623
I'm talking about the structure of my bones forcing a specific gait which is female-coded because more than 99% of the time it only occurs in females.
You're talking about choosing to wear currently female-coded clothing because one wants to be female.

>>41911758
Transmeds hate the typology, because it categorizes their precious body dysphoria as AGP.

>>41911786
If this ain't me.

>>41902661
Most straight transwomen were gay men before, and thus had more exposure to normal gay culture and most of the time either stay there or slowly isolate themselves to the social environment of their bf. Most transbians basically were thrown straight up into uwu femboy online transculture and never really engaged with gay men

>>41912020
90% of trans women transitioning today are gynephiles.
HSTS has never been higher than around 25% of trans women in the West, and that figure has been dropping every year.

>>41909375
If you like women, you technically cant be "hsts" the way it is defined because hsts means homosexual transsexual. Its in the definition that you like men

>>41912034
Genuine question, where could you POSSIBLY have gotten this statistic?

>>41912034
>HSTS has never been higher than around 25% of trans women in the West, and that figure has been dropping every year.
Interesting, even in the past? One explanation could be that because in the west, you can be a gay man much more freely while paradoxically in thirdworld countries, being gay is not permitted but transitioning is. So i can see lots of gay men staying gay in the western world while transitioning is the easier route in the other countries to be allowed to love men. I personally never had GD but transitioned because i had more success with a feminine appearance as a gay male. Looking back, i should have just moved to a bigger city but hindsight is 20/20 as a teenager and i cant really go back now as I built a whole life already with a man.

>transbian
>feel pretty much the same, for trans spaces anyway
>the theyfabs are alright though
But wait where are you finding hordes of well-integrated transbians? 100% of the integrated trans women I've met IRL are straight or bi
>hsts spaces are worse though cuz I don't speak gay
>like what the fuck who cares about trade?

>>41912130
You don't get HSTS without severe lifelong undervirilization. That occurs at a fixed rate in a population, and has slightly decreased over time as we've learned to stop giving DES to pregnant women. The rate of people transitioning has increased over time, which means the proportion of transitioners who are HSTS has decreased over time.

Even back in Harry Benjamin's day, the overwhelming majority of his patients were not HSTS. He finessed HSTS and AGP together in his scale, such that "Type VI true transsexual" appears to describe HSTS but actually more closely describes AGP: no mention of undervirilization, but mention of "married, with children" and frantic cross-dressing no longer relieving the distress. Those two features are AGP through and through.

The more individual-oriented cultures of the West are likely the reason for AGP being more common there. In more communal-oriented cultures, AGP transition is harshly discouraged but HSTS transition is encouraged, because HSTS transitioning increases social harmony whereas AGP transitioning would reduce it. Pre-transition HSTS come across as incredibly sissy men even when they're trying their damnedest to be masculine.

>>41914538
wdym by undervirilisation, just low t or something else?

>>41916006
Undervirilization is a consequence of low T or some other conditions (like AIS)
>>41914538
I failed puberty pretty spectacularly--hard enough to transition in my mid 30s and still pass--and still wound up gynephilic.
Not really the picture of AGP though for what that's worth, except for the late transitioning transbian part.

>>41902661
I do think its just that straight trans women have to be more normal because their dating pool isn't other trannies.

>>41917085
All HSTS are undervirilized, but not all undervirilized MTFs are HSTS. A very small number of HSTS are gynephilic, no more than 2%.

I've known AGPs who failed male puberty. They're the ones who were thrilled not to masculinize properly, as opposed to horrified that their bodies weren't developing like those of other boys.

Part of the problem is that the stereotypical AGP (pornbrained creepy obviously male person in fetishistic clothing) hides that any MTF who got dysphoria over puberty masculinizing them is AGP too. Femboys are AGP. HRT femboys are AGP. HRT reppers are AGP. Long term boymoders are AGP.

>>41917231
AGP as a term is used to characterize it as a paraphilia which is why people don't like the term. It's disparaging over a term like "dysphoric."

>>41917249
Blanchard going with the -philia suffix was very unfortunate, in hindsight. I think the term autoheterosexual is less stigmatizing. Rather like being homosexual, it doesn't seem that it can be changed once formed.

>>41917276
Autoheterosexual still feels kind of awkward to just saying "dysphoric."

It implies that it is solely a sexual phenomenon. It's one of the same reasons transsexual as a term fell out of favor.

>>41917299
Well, it is solely a sexual phenomenon, isn't it? Dysphoria is frustration and distress from being forced to be in a relationship with a partner of the wrong sex. It need not present itself in a sexual way, but that's what's happening underneath.

I think that likening it to normies as being akin to forcing a straight man into a relationship with another man is more likely to be understood than inexplicable distress over one's body being physically normal and healthy for one's birth sex.

>>41902661
>Why are straight trans women and non-straight trans women so different?
are they though? i feel like this is just part of the 4chan hsts-agp religion and not real
>All of the straight trans women I know (including myself) have absolutely nothing in common with the trans "community" and have articulated that going to trans/queer related events are also usually ostracizing.
well im a transbian and i feel the very same way. youre just retarded

>>41917336
I think this kind of falls apart when you consider detransitioners who started experiencing physical distress ("reverse dysphoria") as a result of their transition. Would those be autohomosexuals?

>>41917387
Does that happen in any great amount? MTFs frequently say that almost all detransitions are the result of transphobia, not regret.

>>41917231
I had very mixed feelings about it. Going through high school as a neverbloomer sucked and I definitely had moments where I wished I'd developed like everyone else.
It bothered me a little that people pointed out I could pass for my mother on the phone all the way through high school, and I got super self conscious about it sometimes. But I also appreciated I never lost the ability to hit high notes.
Mostly I dissociated. I actually managed to psyop myself into thinking I *had* masculinized too far to transition for a while, but 10 months of slow-ramped HRT was enough to turn me into an ugly woman.
Anyway I don't really care too deeply about the typology implications. I just call myself AGP anyway. But it's fun to read people's conceptions of it.

>>41917407
A solid chunk of detransitioners (70%) retransition and many do pivot to non-binary identities.

But there are those who fully regret transition and others still who report experiencing dysphoria as a result of transition.

>>41902879
i think ur firgetting 99+% of transbians r poly so they’re still looking to date

>>41917414
From last night in >>41909640
>Ultimately if you're in a bit of a gray area with respect to AGP/HSTS then I don't think it needs to matter. The model is about predicting transition outcome using sexual orientation. If your transition ends up successful, then does it matter if you're closer to AGP than to HSTS? There are good HSTS and bad HSTS. There are good AGP and bad AGP.

>>41917249
>>41917276
I think the real problem is it's sexologists who study us. They are going to see things through the lens of sexuality, and internally they're going to need us to make sense to them as a sexual phenomenon.
I transitioned fully expecting it to ruin any chance I had at a dating or sex life. But try convincing a sexologist your motivations have literally nothing to do with sex.

>>41917479
You had a dating or sex life to ruin?

>>41917523
Nope! When I transitioned I'd had one lifetime partner, who incidentally transitioned to male after we broke up. I had had no partners for I think more than 10 years at that point.

>>41917479
When all you have is a hammer...

This is why I think we need endos and neurologists to study us rather than pseudoscientists.

>>41917431
I don't really see how this would change anything?

non straight trans women are ensouled, straight mtfs are NPCs with no souls and no light behind their eyes. you can kill them and they won’t feel anything. it doesn’t even matter.