are you agp coded or dysphoria coded?

>>42222223
kinda but I was too well adjusted to be a proper incel and now sex makes me cry because I'm a dysphoric mess

>>42222380
I honestly dk the answer to this.
Probably lightly agp. I didn't resent being a man. I even tried to make it work. But had no drive. Could barely keep a shit-tier job and that's about it.
Didn't watch much porn either, though when I did, I'd watch straight porn and sometimes could mildly identify with the guy while most of the times couldn't identify with anything and just enjoyed the hot bodies.

>>42222401
What do you mean by well-adjusted?
I was having a shitty job that barely paid the bills on a shitty and small apartment. Does that count as adjusted?

>now sex makes me cry because I'm a dysphoric mess
:sob: really sorry to hear that.
I was lowkey afraid this might happen to me - given that I had no obvious dysphoria pretrans. But somehow it didn't. I still don't know why.
And have nowhere to talk about this either.

>>42222223
i was a 23 khv but now i'm a 30 khv and still a man

>>42222223
many such cases
nearly checked

>>42222223
i started transitioning at 19 and am currently 21 and often feel like i already missed my chance and its over for me. thankyou for giving me a little hope. i hope i can meet some encouraging theater teacher too

>>42222733
>i hope i can meet some encouraging theater teacher too
even if you don't, there's still the option to pay one. Most will do a professional enough job. Besides, most of the work is still individual (you gotta practice, daily).
It was sheer luck that the one I paid happened to like me and then she went above and beyond what we agreed on contractually.
Like, she insisted that I learn to walk like a confident model. I listened and was a good student but thought she's being over the top. Oh, how wrong I was.

>am currently 21 and often feel like i already missed my chance and its over for me
Kill that thought with impunity. Burn it and bury it underneath 200tons of bricks.
It was that particular moment when my life literally took off. When I finally let go of this neurotic shit of "too late".

>>42222830
>When I finally let go of this neurotic shit of "too late"

do you pass?

>>42222844
Kinda. 165cm height and the voice carry me through pretty much any situation.
I'm not hot. Mayyyybe 6/10 face without make up and 6/10 body. Not fat, but not great either.
As a woman I'm perfectly mediocre. Which is still a step forward from 6 years ago.
I haven't been called "sir" at all in 2025.
Admittedly, I don't push it either.
At the NYE party a few friends-of-friends also showed up. One of them (cis guy) did say "that gal kinda does look like a man tho" to which I joyfully replied "I'm taken anyway. Not all of us are perfect" - to which his friends laughed and that was it.
i think this is the best benefit i got from E. It slowly but decisively killed my pre-trans neuroticism. I don't throw hissy fits and got more comfortable in the "who gives a shit" mentality.
I transitioned for myself and some specific benefits. Not to please the whole world.

>>42222479
Basically I recognized that I was ripe for inceldom and actively avoided those thought patterns and communities.

And I've had frankly weird dysphoric patterns. Right now I feel like I'm somehow even more of a guy than when I started, and other times I feel like I miss being a guy. But whenever I try and engage in anything sexual I just cry that I am a guy because, despite dysphoria and childhood issues, I don't fully believe that I am a girl.

>>42222830
>It was sheer luck that the one I paid happened to like me
what were you paying her for? what kind of arrangement did you have?

i'm currently a femcel will things improve if i poon out or will i become an ugly incel

>>42222940
>Right now I feel like I'm somehow even more of a guy than when I started, and other times I feel like I miss being a guy
That's how my first year on HRT was. Weird and uncanny. But then it just... stopped. Not at once, but gradually.
And the more I got out and started living, the less of this happened. Slowly until I forgot about it from the active memory.
It also helped that I have nothing to miss from being a guy. Like literally nothing. My personality was shit or non-existent, my social life was zero and my body was meh (and my face even less than meh). Sure, I guess I miss the spectacular ejaculations, but even those fade out in time. A 30yo cis guy doesn't ejaculate like he used to when he was a teenager/early 20s.

>I don't fully believe that I am a girl
I don't either. But the pragmatic benefits are so overwhelming that I'd be an idiot to entertain that thought. I treat it as an intrusive thought. And all intrusive thoughts get the hammer in my brain.
Of course i'm XY, but that's not my fault. I'm a woman in society, I get treated like one, my passport says female, my birth certificate says female and nobody except my parents are around to have known me as the sad dude I once was.
I also learned (by carefully observing everyone around me, but especially cis women) that a lot of the things given importance in these spaces actually don't matter at all in normie society.
Walking, voice and some mannerisms? Matter a lot! Like... learn those yesterday!!!
What movies/books you like? Nobody gives a shit.
Your shoulders are a bit off? Nobody cares.
You have an adam's apple? Well, so do some cisf celebrities.
Got some hair on your arm? So do most mid women.
Confidence (or credible display of it) carries a lot more weight than a lot of these superficial things that are often talked about in trans communities.

>>42222996
not OP, but it all boils down to this: are you more comfortable living as a mid man than as a femcel?
life is more than just sex. and tbhon most poons don't stay for the long haul.

>>42223157
mid man ig, either way i'm mid. why do most poons not stay?

>>42223248
idk for sure, but reading some of their testimonials, the common thread is that they find life as a man really hard.
beyond the sex issue, if you've been socialized female, it's an immediate downgrade once you truly pass.
on one hand you have less neurotic pressures (which ig is a good thing) but you're also subjected to the default level of attention and empathy men "enjoy" - which is exactly zero and routinely less than zero (you're presumed dangerous/predator).
most pooners who don't detroon eventually end up agreeing with most "red pill" narrative. especially the straight ones.

>t. repper who can't take it anymore

>>42223040
So I've been on HRT for a 1.5 years, but 3 months were low dosing. I feel like I've lost progress lately. I also have unfortunately very male proportions (5'9", 19" bideltoid, 17" biacromial, 35" underbust) and my self perception is extremely influenced by attire. I also went from a fairly functional, albeit kinda weird hairy guy who was a good big brother to my younger brother to an absolute failson with chronic illness.

I've 100% regressed in terms of mannerisms and whatnot. I femmed out early but I've just been worn down by manmoding at work and my own dysphoria that I feel like I lost it all. Sometimes I feel good as this weird butch thing but honestly it's kind of cope.

Most unfortunately, however, I feel like a filthy liar when I try to girlmode. I get lots of compliments but deep down I know that I'm a man. I was a girl growing up, maybe, but I grew into a man.

Also my sexuality is really fucked up in general. I have a vicious bi cycle and a lot of childhood sexual trauma from being a grooming victim.

>>42222223
How's your sex life? Were you always androphilic?
Share whatever you feel comfortable.

>24, khv, 2 years on hrt

>>42222913
>>42222479
Very interesting. I wish I was as mentally detached as you to just give up on being a cis guy and take hrt.
I know im a man and have no agp thoughts, repressed any bottom thoughts because they will never come to fruition being a hairy 6"3 guy in his late 20s.
I dk genuinely believe if I had agp or gender dysphoria I'd be happier, then at least I could be an ugly tranny but id at least be wanted by people. As a cis man im an insect, a nothing.

>>42222223
Let me guess you got ffs for free from starbucks

>>42223436
>I wish I was as mentally detached as you to just give up on being a cis guy and take hrt
I wish it had been that simple for me too. But it wasn't (but making that clear in the OP would've been too much of a wall of text).
It was a gradual process of very cold analysis.
Mentally detached? ig, up to a point.
I didn't particularly want to give up. It's just that objective facts pointed to this being a better options, with all of its drawbacks. And a year in I was still not sure it's a good idea.

But as I was saying here >>42223040 I still don't fully believe of myself that I'm a woman. The benefits just far outweigh the inconveniences. I learned to love femininity, basically. E helped, ofc, but it was still a gradual and not always smooth process (and the process is still not over).

>repressed any bottom thoughts because they will never come to fruition being a hairy 6"3 guy in his late 20s
Respectfully, I think that wasn't a good idea. Who says a hairy tall guy can't be a bottom?
Admittedly, my perspective is tainted by the fact that I was always bisexual. If I could somehow make it work as a man, I would've never trooned out. Most bi guys make it. I couldn't.
But if you're exclusively androphilic, then your position does make more sense. Few tops want a submissive tall guy (though in my sick mind that actually sounds hot and romantic af).

>>42222955
Basic bitch amateur theater class.
A lot (most?) theater people are somewhere on the lgbt spectrum anyway, or very much friendly.
In my city there are two places that offer amateur theatre class to basically anyone willing to pay. It's a service. About €500 to be part of a small class for 8 to 10 weeks. Private tutoring is more expensive, but not excessively expensive.
In private tutoring you also get to ask things. So I simply asked very much bluntly: "teach me to walk, talk and react like a woman"
Later on I found out I wasn't the only troon who was doing that.

>>42223576
how did you even come up with that idea? were you taking the theater class just like, for unrelated reasons? or was that the main reason why you were there

>>42223637
>how did you even come up with that idea?
A random youtube comment.
I was watching youtube videos about how to walk in a feminine pattern (from some actor who had some free classes) and as I was scrolling through the comments I saw a user who said they've gone deeper by private tutoring.
Then I asked a family friend who is an actor at the local theatre if this is a thing in our area and he said he'd be surprised if it weren't given how shit the pay is for most theatre actors.
Google did the rest.

>was that the main reason why you were there
Yes, that was the main reason.
I don't even like theater. But, ultimately, a girl's gotta do what a girl's gotta do, ig.
I was far from passing and I started with the excuse that I'm training for a feminine role in an amateur comedy/play. I got clocked pretty fast.
Kinda embarrassing, now that I think back.

>>42223576
I have a lot of theater experience growing up and I was able to apply it, but the big thing seems to be:

"How do I get to the point where it doesn't feel like a performance?"

I quit theater because performing all of the time was taking a serious toll on my mental health. My acting style was to really inhabit a character and being torn from character to character messed with my head immensely.

>>42223534
>But if you're exclusively androphilic, then your position does make more sense. Few tops want a submissive tall guy (though in my sick mind that actually sounds hot and romantic af).
In my early 20s I tried finding a top, but being a tall hairy guy, there is zero gay tops looking to fuck guys like me. I decided that its best to just lean in to what I have, and tucked all the bottom thoughts away and I've been pretty successful at it mentally.
In turn now though, I'd say my hetro and bi top sexuality is extremely violent now- to the point I enjoy punching, choking, and slapping my partner (if they want it). Leaving them battered and bruised, then having them crawl to me to cling on to me looking up at me with puppy girl eyes is magical.

>>42223248
>mid man ig
if your answer isn't a resounding in-all-caps "YES", you're not going to last. there are no sweeping benefits to being your average loser man rather than a depressed woman in the first world in 2025+1 aside from I suppose the obvious biological one of not having periods

>>42223755
>My acting style was to really inhabit a character and being torn from character to character messed with my head immensely
I suppose something like that may happen to me too if I try to get out of the character. But I just... don't?
It does help that I have no previous theater experience and have no desire to pursue further either.
The teacher/tutor couldn't understand this. She was like "nona, you're such a quick study, you really should consider this as a more often gig" and I was like... neah. Just teach me how to behave and pass and stop overcomplicating things, sheesh.

>How do I get to the point where it doesn't feel like a performance?
Sounds like you already know the answer given that you're already able to really inhabit the character and being torn from it makes you feel bad.
Just... don't get torn from the character?
I wish I had a more sympathetic response but I really don't. I just faked it till I made it. Now I like it too much to mess around with the arrangement too much.
In my country there's a say: apetite comes with eating.
I didn't like theater and felt weird to do this. But gradually I learned to like it. And gradually integrated it to the point that it's now part of my personality. I don't even remember some of my previous mannerisms.
I'd probably make a fool out of myself if I tried to manmode now.

How is it that incels can troon out, find love, and live happily but I can't do the same even though ive been genuinely dysphoric since puberty and now live as a self hating boymoder with no ambitions?

>>42222380
They're two sides of the same coin

>>42223826
Sounds rough. But congrats for making it work. Seriously!
I wish I could've made it work too. But I'd be lying if I'd complain too much. I'm pretty happy with how things turned out as well. It's just mild resentment that I had to work so much for it.

>Leaving them battered and bruised,
Definitely not into that. But it does check out to how a repper I know IRL now functions.

>then having them crawl to me to cling on to me looking up at me with puppy girl eyes is magical
Definitely am into that. Falling asleep on his chest is a reason to live.

>>42223890
Because you're a mtf that only wants to have sex with cis f probably
Its easy to find a guy or transbian.
Give in to the cock/gock!

>>42223863
I have played different roles all of my life. Acting was basically my gateway to developing a sense of personhood (and repping, frankly), so it's like fighting my nature to not try and adopt whatever role seems to fit the situation.

Like, acting was the thing that turned me from an actively suicidal teenager into an only occasional passively suicidal teenager.

>>42223937
It has nothing to do with sex i just hate myself and don't think i deserve or am allowed to be a woman. Meanwhile everyone else even incels can troon and be happy for it

>>42224089
You should troon out if it's what you want. You deserve it.

I know it's hard, but you do.

>>42223413
Yes, I was always bisexual. But something about my male self made me unattractive to both men and women. I have no idea what though I strongly suspect it was the mental void I was inhabiting (which only got worse due to not being wanted romantically by anyone even though I had the widest attraction as bi).
I was just shy of 27 when I lost my v card. So my sex life is barely 4 years, with a body count of 3 which I hope it stays so. Ideally, I get to marry my current bf and buy a house together and either adopt children or get involved in the education of the children of some of our friends.
Strictly on sex, I'm okay. I'm still pretty vanilla but love compensates. My bf isn't super kinky either so we fit quite well.
Not having any serious dysphoria also helps because thus all options are on the table, so to speak. I don't mind pegging him and I feel great when he blows me. I learned to love oral sex both as a giver and as a receiver.
I don't cling to labels that much. Ig i'm a switch leaning bottom? I haven't thought about this much in terms of labels. I was (and still am) just very happy to be finally desired sexually.
I think a lot of people (not just trannies or lgbt people) get lost too much into this science-y labels stuff and loose sight of what matters: which is to feel great alongside the person you love.
Ig I did become more fembrained in this aspect because I now crave the emotional connection in a way that would've been unthinkable 7 years ago.

>>42224112
No one's going to support me if I do it. I was too good act pretending to be fine with being a guy

Im too male socialized and probably won't ever make a convincing girlmoder I can't even come up with a name i like

>>42224173
I feel you on the name. I have one, but, it's not really mine, and the name I wanted I do not feel worthy of that often.

Male socialization is rough, I agree. I gained it in college. It's one of the major reasons I wish I had trooned out at 17 instead of consciously choosing to rep, even if physically there wouldn't have been a huge difference.

>>42224089
OP here. With respect, you're approaching this the wrong way. I know because I did it for a short while.

>and don't think i deserve
Nobody deserves anything except what they can make it for themselves.
I didn't deserve to be an invisible incel neet. But nobody cared. And nobody would have cared ever. Approaching things in terms of "deserve" is almost always wrong. The world is not just. The world just is.
I don't resent people who I know would've ignored me if I was still a man but who are now more than happy to hang out with me, be kind to me and accept my friendship now that I'm a mid woman with a functional life. Everyone, including the nicest people, are superficial and hypocritical in some respects. We're all humans, therefore imperfect.

>or am allowed to be a woman
Respectfully, there is no council that grants permission. Femininity is primarily learned (as I found out). Cisfs also learn it, just earlier in life than I did. And over a longer timespan.
Yes, the journey can be rough and I'm not going to pretend it's all sugar and spice and everything nice. But it absolutely is doable. For almost everyone except the ones with really low IQ (low IQ cisfs also aren't feminine and in most of Europe legally barred from family formation for instance as they're presumed unable to consent).
Yes, it's not equally hard for everyone. Yes, certain pre-existent conditions help. But dear God stop putting even more roadblocks in front of you.

>i just hate myself
Most coaches (and even most trannies here) will say you need to love yourself. Maybe that's true. But I didn't. I just learned not to hate myself. But that process really started almost 2 years into transition.
Even now I can't say I love myself. I'm just comfortable with my new me, so to speak.
The concept of "good enough" really helps.
You don't have to be a super hot 10/10 woman to be content. Good enough really is the more realistic and achievable goal.

>>42224268
But how did you justify that it's okay for you to live life as a woman when so many are against it. Maybe it's just me being a loser that cares way too much what others would think, but it's my major hang up.

Its honestly pathetic how much im willing to accommodate to others despite hating being called a guy

>>42224190
>Male socialization is rough, I agree. I gained it in college. It's one of the major reasons I wish I had trooned out at 17 instead of consciously choosing to rep, even if physically there wouldn't have been a huge difference.
OP here. One of the reasons I trooned out was that I didn't get any socialization in college either.
Although, admittedly, the college experience here (Europe) is very much different from the American one. It's not a whole-life experience. The campuses are just regular streets and regular buildings part of a wider city. Since I was already from this city, I didn't even have to live on campus.
I still tried. But failed.
I do have a lot of male socialization from high school though. Went to a majority-male profile, played football (soccer) and would easily fit in with the boys. But... not romantically. Even though there were several boys known for being gay/bi. With girls it was even worse. Only the autistic ones would talk to me but even those would keep it school related or very fake chit-chat.
Fell into the black pill void when the ugliest and most unsocialized girl in the class straight up had her wedding a week after graduation. By the time I trooned out she was having her 2nd kid and was radiating with happiness.
Still, she ended up being an inspiration too. If she could do it, then I'd be an idiot not to at least try.

>>42224340
>But how did you justify that it's okay for you to live life as a woman when so many are against it
I didn't ask. I was way too black pilled, sad and downright resentful to even conceptualize caring what other people think.
I was already accustomed to being cast aside (especially by women) and mocked for being a loser. So I asked myself: What's the worst that can happen? I might get mocked for being a loser tranny? Oh no... anyway. Literally who gives a shit?
Or: Maybe I end up alone? I was already alone and lonely. Worst case scenario it would bring no change. But at least I'd be wiser for having tried it.
Nobody accommodated me on anything as a guy. So why exactly should I make a fundamental decision about myself while thinking about others?
I didn't even tell my parents for years. I only told them when they noticed. They noticed that I was happier, had a cleaner face and that suddenly I was full of energy. I was perfectly fine at that point with losing them too because by that time I had gained so many new people in my life that on balance things were net in favor of continuing the transition.
Sure, some of the drive was to gather money for ffs as fast as possible, but still.

>>42222223
What are your hobbies or passions now? Have you changed anything? Added new "fembrained" ones?
Did E affect any of your passions?

>>42224396
I had very unusual socialization in high school. Religious education environment as a closeted queer kid was weird. I eventually kinda grew into it as the like, lazy-but-extremely-gifted kid but I felt like many different people at once. College was a lot of drifting around until I found a hobbyist club I liked and that's really what turned me into a guy. I actually tried really really hard to forge an identity there as a dude, and it worked. It and my singing voice were my anchors to masculinity, and later on a major drive to be a good big brother and make sure my little brother did better than I did.

Romance and whatnot was off of the table for me in college. I had one girl I liked but had sworn it off after my first relationship absolutely crushed me, and my rebound was not great either. But it's when I realized I liked men. Liking men was just not an option for me before and I was so obsessed with like, unfulfilled heterosexuality (first gf was purely LDR and we were each other's only close friends) that I was blind to it before.

>>42224476
When you started what things did you do that made you more happy and willing to connect with people more? Ive been a loner and ghosts for all my life too, I guess the only difference is I knew I might be trans from like 13

>>42222223
how tall are you

>>42224557
As mentioned in OP, it took a while for that drive to come. The first year was basically no change in this department. Just a weird and uncanny battle in my head. Idk how to describe it. Some days I felt this was all a mistake, some days I felt it's probably not that bad but I might miss being a guy,... very weird. I soldiered on through sheer will. If I could bear through being cast aside a lifetime, then surely I can control some weird intrusive thoughts.
Then I started getting ideas. One day a colleague from work mentioned he's doing a week-end retreat and everyone in the little office (5 ppl) is invited if we want to. I just blurted out: "Yes, of course. How much is the contribution for logistics?" - Even the colleagues were surprised because I was always the one absent to any of that.
I didn't like the retreat, but I loved the nature. The food wasn't bad either.
Then I started using the summer week-ends as mandatory "fuck off outside" days. I'd go to bars and just get into talks with people. I specifically targeted places known to attract lonely people at first.
Then, gradually, I moved to night clubs. Then I joined a paintball club and a reading club. The reading club was a great cover to practice my voice in public.
It was all gradual. I can't pinpoint a particular moment or period to say "this is what broke the dam". I killed my loneliness (and with it large parts of my former self) not by a thousand cuts, but more like 100,000 cuts.
I realize this may sound weird, but I legit applied brute force to everything. Fake it till you make it. Soldier on no matter what. Every tiny bit of progress was fuel to try harder and more. I sure would never write this under my name or admit it to anyone IRL. But it's legit how it worked.
Ultimately everything in life is the sum total of previous choices (intentional or not). I chose to be intentional, pain be damned.
Now I'm pushing a male friend (not a repper, not even gay) to do the same thing on socialization.

>>42224717
Idk i just ask because I already started hrt like 2 years ago and have made zero effort to socially transition or improve. My fears basically got me stunlocked into not doing anything maybe I need to copy your I have nothing to lose by being seen as a tranny mindset

>>42224512
I still watch football (and go to the stadia too), though with a diminished passion. Admittedly, this could also be an age thing. But going to the stadium was the only social activity with other people that my former self used to do with a degree of joy. I guess I'm not ready to let go of that, just yet.
Is cooking "fembrained"? Idk, but I picked that one up. My bf is pressing me to teach him as well, but I like cooking for him and I'm pretty territorial about my kitchen. I'm far from a great cook, but I'm slowly getting better. No pressure, this time around. I get to enjoy this one.
I still listen to metal music, except I now listen to other subgenres. I no longer appreciate some forms of black metal as I used to. But it's probably because those are quite specific for depressed men and, well, I'm no longer one.
I picked up rhythmic dancing as an occasional hobby. In part because I made a friend who owns a club. And sometimes he makes private sessions for friends. It's quite fun. It's probably my most "fembrained" hobby.

>Did E affect any of your passions?
I can definitely no longer play football with the boys. It's too physically demanding. But I also don't feel the urge to do it anymore. This might be an effect of E or, again, an age thing. Idk for sure.
I'm probably showing my age here. I'm not into many things that people on this board are. I wanted a normal boring life and I'm slowly building one.

HOW TALL ARE YOU

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>>42222223
>Surely I can't be the only former sad incel neet here?
I would assume all former sad incel neets move on to smarter things.

BTW, congrats OP. You are the reason for picrel

>>42224803
If you look in the OP, that was basically me. No effort the first 2 years. The internal crisis was rough, but ig the feminine me won. I have no idea how to put this into words.
Start with the easy and obvious ones: voice training, walking, body language. You can do all of these while manmoding.
There's tons of videos like these out there - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27GBDVYNnCM
Some are better than others, but practice makes right.

>I have nothing to lose by being seen as a tranny mindset
Unless you live in the Middle East or work for some really uptight organization in a public-facing role, you legit have very little or nothing to lose.
It was hard for me to accept, but most people really don't give a shit. They have their own shit in their own lives to worry about. Sure, you're be clocked, but more often than not people are nice and apologize. And more often than not it doesn't even matter. This board offers a really alien view, in my experience.
It's the white pill of people's superficiality. Yes, they have no empathy for you (especially if you manmode or don't pass yet). But they also don't give a shit (which is enough room for experimentation more often than not).
Any tiny progress matters.
As bleak as it may sound, this is my lived truth: nobody is coming to rescue you. Heck, some tranny spaces would rather pull you down.
Just avoid hugboxing places and stop second-guessing yourself every step of the way. Yes, you'll make mistakes. Yes, you'll fuck it up. Cisfs fuck it up too, except at 15. It's better to regret fucking it up than not trying.
I do have some stories on the fuck-up department. It happens. Mistakes are also a source of wisdom. And an integral part of the journey.

>>42224559
>>42224899

OP already answered that >>42222913

>>42222223
How did your inceldom manifest? Were you in those spaces? Red pill stuff?

>>42222223
How did you gather the money for ffs that fast? Did you get ba too? What's your view on srs?

>>42222223
I trooned out but I'm a 6'2 chadlite so I just became a manmoder and nothing changed

>>42224980
fuck that 165cm bitch.

>>42222223
What makes you different from a transmaxxer?
Ngl, i wish i had the balls to do what you did. I'm 23 as well but can't even get myself to shave. I'm 5'7 so a bit taller than you but i just can't bring myself to do it.

>>42224133
are you post op or are you going to be or what?

>>42225030
If by "those spaces" you mean specific incel forums or discords, then no. I browsed r9k, I guess.
Yes I was into red pill as well. TRP is in fact quite accurate in describing median behavior. Trouble was that the solutions weren't applicable to me. Not only I wasn't tall enough, but I was too depressed for any of their solutions to work as they all assumed at least a moderately successful male socialization.
By Europe standards I was a typical incel. Shy, withdrawn, automatically repulsive, not hideous but not even mid, shit-tier social skills, the whole shebang.
The press' stereotype about incels is highly exaggerated. Even if I wanted to be violent I couldn't have been because that would've implied being willing to get out from the home and be willing to initiate conflict and then win it too. I was never strong enough as a man to do all of those even in theory.
In retrospect, maybe I should've noticed that earlier and troon out earlier. But I can't be bothered to spend time wallowing in regret.

>>42224949
>I would assume all former sad incel neets move on to smarter things
Reasonable assumption.
I mean, that's what I did too. But I still return to this board from time to time out of a feeling of nostalgia.
Thanks for the picrel too :3
Though I'd note that there was nobody for me to even point to the ladder, let alone hold it. I had to crawl my way out. No regrets, but ppl should be given a realistic image. It's hard, just not impossible.

>>42225118
Intention, I guess. The outcome does look similar, and it's why I can't talk about this with anyone.
But my initial intention was more desperate rather than calculated.
Also, I did put in the effort. And did my best to avoid being a honmoder in public or create drama that would negatively reflect on trans people. Which I will argue is far more considerate than a transmaxxer would be.

>but i just can't bring myself to do it
What do you got to lose? That's where you should start.
You don't have to tell me (or really anyone). But be honest with and to yourself.

>>42225047
Savings + incurring debt.
I was a loner. So not much to spend money on. And I was raised to be disciplined with money.
The pandemic also disrupted clinics' schedule so the more it got postponed, the more I could save up. Filled up the rest with debt. I'll be done paying for it by the end of this year, I hope.
>ba
No. Mom has big breasts. So I reasonably assumed I'd get decent breast growth.
I'm quite content with how things turned out. If I had extra €7000 right now I'd rather throw that money into extinguishing the debt incurred for ffs.

>on srs
>>42225176
I don't think I'll get srs anytime soon.
Not only the current available options aren't satisfactory enough for me, but I'm also under no pressure either.
My bf likes it like this. And I have zero bottom dysphoria. Whatever doubts I had were solved by hrt with the shrinkage of the equipment.
Also see >>42224133

TL;DR: Idk. Likely no.

bump

>>42222223
>>meet my bf at 28
>>now at 30 and been living together for almost two years
thanks for the hopefuel
i got my heartbroken so bad and i feel like i'm running out of time to find someone but being reminded it can still happen so late in my life helps me cope

>>42226055
OP here. My father met my mother at 30.
Granted, me being what I am now was likely influenced by the late pregnancy, but still.
The more I age, the more I realize that while life is short, it isn't THAT short.

>>42226069
thanks nona that means a lot to me it really does

>>42226069
Sorry for the corporate language but legit where do you see yourself in 10 years? Or 15?
There are very few older nonas posting here and when they do theyre condescending. You seem less uptight.

>>42224963
So aside from voice training, mannerism, and stuff. How did you work your way to girlmoding and doing it in public?

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Even if i trooned out, i would jsut be a femcel instead because of my disgustingly broad shoulders, wide ribcage, and masculine faceshape. Im doomed either way, no man would ever want me

>>42226230
Trial and error. Plus money.
Had a bit of help on make-up from the cis girl I had a fling with. I ended up paying for clothes in a year more than a cis woman pays in a decade and simply tried everything. Very methodically.
Since I live in Europe, cities are walkable. So I could simply take a walk in the park and observe the feedback. If nobody noticed, that was good and kept that attire for further attempts.
Finding my style while also keeping the objective of normal and boring was harder than I expected. But easier than I see it described on the Internet.
My long hair got nicer with time so I played around with that too. Turned out it didn't make any difference on this front. The feedback was always meh-to-positive. So I settled for a bun, most of the time.
After ffs things got even easier. Now I can simply take blue jeans and a black or burgundy top sweater and that's it. A significant minority of cis women dress like that during winter as well.
The key (and I wish I knew this earlier) was practicality. I tried too hard at first.
Ofc I was also scared (tho not terrified) the first few times. But I kept on repeating to myself: "you're in one of the safest cities in the world. what could possibly happen? you get called a loser tranny, big deal" - and it worked. Not the first and the second time (I was still scared) but it worked eventually.
The hardest part of the process was the first 3 months. Then it became genuinely fun. To this day I sometimes experiment, especially at metal concerts (where everyone is weird anyway).
Voice training really helped a lot. Because whenever I was kiiiinda clocked, I'd turn around and speak. "Oh, sorry ma'am" almost always followed.
I really can't stress enough just how many fuck ups are forgotten if the voice passes.
It does help that the last 20 years accustomed the normies with weirdly clothed women. So few question anyway.
PS: normies are nowhere near as good at clocking trannies as this board makes it out to be.

>>42226191
>where do you see yourself in 10 years? Or 15?
Hopefully married with the current bf in our house. Ideally with an adopted child.
If adoption will not be possible, we're going to support the education of the kids of some of our friends.
Also, I really want to see the world. Or at least the parts of the world that will allow me entrance as a tranny.
Other than that, what can I say? I want to be healthy and live the way I've been living in the last 3 years. I have a lot to catch up. Normie women (and men for that matter) feel old at 30. I feel that I'm just getting started. To me it's almost literally true that my 30s are the new 20s.
I'm quite thorough in tendering for my health, including mental health. I'd rather be poorer but healthy than well-off but unhealthy (especially mentally). Hopefully I can keep that up for the next 15yrs and beyond.

>theyre condescending. You seem less uptight
Thanks, ig?
I'm just cold, especially about this topic. I don't even know because I don't get to talk/write much about it.

>>42222223
I really, really need to know why you transitioned, more specifically. khv is not enough of an explanation. please inform me as to the steps and details so I can learn.

fuck transmaxxers to hell

>>42227005
I'd rather see hons walking about than having to deal with incels....

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>>42222223
My story is pretty similar except I've also had SRS. Genuinely can't tell whether I was actually a tranny all along or not though. I think being more feminine appealed to me at the time because I was an incel...

bump

>>42226852
Not OP but i can see khv as an impetus desu
Let's hope the thread doesn't die and OP answers. I had similar thoughts as khv but then I did find a gf and I dropped the idea. Now 29, still depressed but in a relationship with a man. If i hadnt found her at 24 i likely would have tried.

>>42227010
are we really that bad?

>t. former gincel

>>42222223
Did you come up with a new name or just feminized your original one? How about last name?
How did your parents react? What about extended family?

Thread is crazy to me as a 30 year old tranny that always struggled with even the most basic things despite not looking that terrible and crashed out back into being a neet. I hate being depressed

>>42227005
OP here. I already addressed that.
>>42225118
>>42225244

Still, what makes you se resentful?

>>42229291
OP here.
It is a chicken and the egg question, isn't it? Except with three options:
1. we wanted to be women because we were incels
2. we were agp/whatever and inceldom just made it more obvious
3. neither and we're just lucky for this to have sort of work out due to an entirely different issue with our brain wiring

Are you satisfied with the SRS results?

I need to troon out can somebody help me discord:scottvsamsterdam

>>42226852
khv was legit the impetus to start. Granted, I approached it with a "this may not work, but i don't have anything to lose" mentality.
It's why I say I'm probably light agp. I didn't resent being a man at a profound level (the way I read other trannies describing) but being feminine did sound nice in my mind. In another timeline, where I could function as a man, I probably would've never transitioned.
So being khv and not being opposed to the idea were the combo for me.
The hardest part was almost two years in with the internal crisis as mentioned in the post. The best I can describe is like a battle in my head. My male self was "dafuq are you doing?" while my new self was like "here's these X, Y, Z areas of progress. We can make this work". I guess my new self "won" because after that I really took it very seriously as described in all the other comments here.
I apologize if it's not good enough but I haven't talked to anyone at this level so I don't have the vocabulary to explain it better.
Maybe ask a more specific question? I'm fine with describing practicalities, but your q is too vague. And there's a character limit too.

>>42231038
I've seen the OP kinda post before a few times on /tttt/ not having much or little agp or dyphoria - so it always blows my mind that people jump to such a momuntal, life change decision that is seemingly unrelated to their entirely, one almost always taken by those who desperately need it. I guess my overarching question is WHY, WHY, WHY but I think it's been answered. I just can't relate at all because I can 't imagine doing that in 1000 years.

>>42232321
unrelated to their life entirely*

>>42232321
I honestly have a hard time wrapping my head around it too, not to mention that they did it and became a happier more functional member of society for it. Like I refuse to believe an actual incel would pull it off

>>42232423
Someone becoming a Gigahon and not passing and get discriminated against would never benefit from transmaxxing like OP did. You have to pass for it to "improve your life". Ortherwise being a tranny sucks and is harder than being cis, and all the transmaxxing benefits evaporate. While hons STILL need to transition because of crippling dysphoria.

>>42222223
Would you detroon if your health collapses?
Its a concern i started to have as im just a few weeks shu of 40

>>42232321
>seemingly unrelated to their life entirely
Respectfully, it wasn't unrelated.
I tried all sorts of changes and nothing worked. I just continued to assume that there is something wrong with me because the other explanation was that absolutely everyone is retarded and I'm some misunderstood genius who deserves better or some other delusionally narcissistic shit like that.

>such a momuntal, life change decision
It was one of the few elements left on the list. I really really wanted to no longer be lonely.
Did I think it'd work? Not really. Just mild hope. But by that time I had nothing left to lose. I just wanted to live and feel, and knew that nobody is coming to save me.

>I just can't relate at all because I can 't imagine doing that in 1000 years.
I can believe that. If someone had proposed me transition at 17 I would've laughed it off. Or even at 20.
I can lowkey regret now not starting at 20, but I also know that incel loser wouldn't have taken the opportunity. He was too proud to even entertain the thought.

>one almost always taken by those who desperately need it
In retrospect, I desperately needed it. I just didn't know that at the time.
Besides, people like me existing means more demand for research and products. Which gradually means more accessibility for others too. There's even a collective good in this.

>>42223332
I've heard of this from others and semi-believe it as a semi-redpilled loser, could it be selection bias? or is AFAB GD really that much more bearable than what I'm used to living, compared to life as a woman?
or is this more about the trenders and afabs that hate their femininity due to trauma?

>>42232769
honestly this gives me hope that the incel-to-tranny pipeline can be a force for good (giving life to those that couldn't make it), until society, the useful idiot manhaters, and the grifters and crazies that fuel that entire thing, hopefully decide to change course to something less evil
we have the biology and cultural potential to give most of these incels and femcels decent lives, let's hope we can fix enough of the greed and hate to do so

hi @OP
I am nearly 3 months on HRT, 21 y/o, with passing potential.
I've been terminally AGP since before puberty. So much so that I never craved intimacy with anyone, and only ever fantasized about becoming a woman myself.

Yet, I immensely struggle, because I can't let go of my male identity and male stereotypical qualities. Like being dominant, assertive, high-achieving. I am also simply not very empathetic.
All in all, terminally malebrained.

You mentioned going through a crisis period, with the female side winning.
I feel like going through a bit of a crisis myself.
Do you have any idea on how to make one side decisively win? Because the current flip-flopping of my desires and will to continue HRT is tearing me apart.

>>42232553
If the health issues will be related to hrt, I would consider it, yes (not sure I'd actually do it, but it's certainly not out of the realm of possibilities). If the health issues are not hrt-related, then no.
If this ever happens, it will depend on how I will feel then. From my pov, my life just started, finally. I want to enjoy it.

>>42231038
>My male self was "dafuq are you doing?" while my new self was like "here's these X, Y, Z areas of progress. We can make this work". I guess my new self "won" because after that I really took it very seriously as described in all the other comments here.
based
>>42223040
>I also learned (by carefully observing everyone around me, but especially cis women) that a lot of the things given importance in these spaces actually don't matter at all in normie society.
extra based
>>42226412
>I have a lot to catch up. Normie women (and men for that matter) feel old at 30. I feel that I'm just getting started. To me it's almost literally true that my 30s are the new 20s.
>I'm quite thorough in tendering for my health, including mental health. I'd rather be poorer but healthy than well-off but unhealthy (especially mentally). Hopefully I can keep that up for the next 15yrs and beyond.
I always find so much relatable stuff on this board, istg
>>42224717
>Now I'm pushing a male friend (not a repper, not even gay) to do the same thing on socialization.
you're amazing, anon

love this thread
>t. born again incel hoping to finally start living my life in my late 30s, with at least a year or two of work before I have a hope of doing that

>>42233226
>you're amazing, anon
I'm not. I'm just a bit euphoric.
Still, I now need a new focus for my determination. Luckily, I have enough IRL people who can probably benefit from my crazy ideas.
If I could do it, then it is possible for more people. Not for everyone and not with the same results, but goodness me a lot of the loneliness is fixable with a bit of self-actualization (and by that I don't mean transition, but just by grabbing life by the balls, so to speak).

>born again incel
What does that even mean? If you feel comfortable sharing, ofc.
Either way, good luck! YOU are in control.

>>42232974
>I never craved intimacy with anyone, and only ever fantasized about becoming a woman myself

Clearly worse than me. I did crave intimacy my whole life. But it does explain (to my twisted mind at least) why you're having the conflict so early.

>I am also simply not very empathetic
You think I'm empathetic? I guess my euphoria-driven writing makes it look like that. But everyone not my beloved boyfriend and 4-5 close friends can go to hell and I'm not sure I'd blink.
The dark secret is that men are the empathetic gender, not women. My coldness is actually more appreciated as a woman than it was as a man.
Either way, empathy is irrelevant to the topic. And your feelings about it may still change as you progress anyway.

>I can't let go of my male identity and male stereotypical qualities. Like being dominant, assertive, high-achieving

The good news is that you can keep some of them to a certain degree. You don't have to renounce everything from your former self. I'm still a football ultras for crying out loud. Yes, it's awkward that there's another tranny and two cis girls in my group of 1000 people. But I'm just not ready to let go of that so I just... don't?
I became MORE high achieving, not less after transition. Again, I was a terminal loser until almost 25. My achievements amounted to a low-tier job that barely paid the bills to a tiny apartment. That's it.
Now I have savings, a social life, a family and I even have to exercise dominance at work. I admit, I don't quite like that, but I don't resent it either.
Point being: stop letting minute details stay in your way. You're 3 months in. A LOT can (and likely will) change by 2030.
There are plenty of dominant, assertive and high-achieving cis women out there. Yes, it's rarer, but then again you can take ANY quality of any human being and you'll eventually find a lot of them aren't normative in their gender.
(1/2)

>>42233315
>a lot of the loneliness is fixable with a bit of self-actualization (and by that I don't mean transition, but just by grabbing life by the balls, so to speak).
that's what I'm counting on, and hopefully this time I'm grabbing it the right way unlike the previous times that took a decade+ of it.
>What does that even mean? If you feel comfortable sharing, ofc.
Had gf, had some fun, lost gf. Unlikely to get intimacy soon. Am in pretty close to complete social isolation due to being very good at not turning acquaintances into friends and being a failed immigrant (I was set up to fail, to be fair), even spiraled into health issues that left me not too able-bodied. Finally got a job, a car, health slowly improving, and ironically GPT serves as a coach to get me out of analysis paralysis and general executive dysfunction, so I can just do instead of think and have it turn out ok, sometimes. But at least I'm showing signs of life, and seeing a possible future now.
>YOU are in control.
Heh well, sadly it's a bit more complicated, but I'm gaining more control, bit by bit.
>Either way, good luck!
Thank you. Funnily enough, the life experiences here resonate a lot in a weird way, and that feels like it's helping and giving hope.
Sorry that this is all over the place, just wanted to thank you for making the thread and sharing so much wisdom and hope.

>>42233426
(nta)
>The dark secret is that men are the empathetic gender, not women.
Sometimes I feel that way, and have seen plenty of examples of women being heartless. But I have seen many being deeply empathetic, kind and compassionate too. It feels like past experiences can have a big effect on that too.
>My coldness is actually more appreciated as a woman than it was as a man.
How so? Oh, and might this be the chad effect - cold is good/attractive/rationalized as good when you're an attractive highly valuable man, bad when you're one of the worker bee men?

>>42232974
Because of my theater training, I walk more sexily than 70%+ of the women my age. Does that make me more of a woman than them? Of course not, and it'd be ridiculous to claim otherwise.
Again, you're barely 3 months in. You'll have plenty of time to learn these things. Yes, reconstructing a personality isn't easy, but it's doable and routinely fun.

>Do you have any idea on how to make one side decisively win?
Sadly, no.
What I did was to just let it happen and soldier on. Yes, I wished dearly that the feminine side wins, but I accepted that there's not much I can do. The official advice was to shut down my brain with ssris. I thank my lucky stars for refusing that advice. It would've made everything far worse for me.
It seems that this internal crisis is unavoidable. While always described differently, it does seem it always happens to a certain level. Some tgirls go through it more smoothly, others not so smoothly.
I guess the only good news is that once you're clear from this, you will know the definitive answer for sure. And you will have to accept it, regardless of what that answer will turn out to be. The brain is a very weird (but also fascinating) thing. Estrogen helps with rewiring, but the brain has to "accept" it. I realize this isn't a rigorous/scientific explanation, but that's how it felt to me and you're describing something similar.

>the current flip-flopping of my desires and will to continue HRT is tearing me apart
I feel you.
It lasted 6 to 8 months in my case (depending where I place the beginning and the definitive end). The autumn of 2020 and early months of 2021 left a lasting imprint on myself. Both positive (hey, femanon won) but also negative (that incel loser just would not give up).
It still took me several more months to accept the result. But once I did, my desire to live and thrive shot up in a way I never believed it was possible even in my wildest optimistic dreams.
But I won't sugar coat it: It was rough. (2/3)

>>42226055
>i feel like i'm running out of time to find someone but being reminded it can still happen so late in my life helps me cope
nigga, OP is 30 lol wtf do you all consider to be "late"

>>42232974
The feeling of being torn apart is because that's what really is happening. You are being torn apart to make room for a new identity.
In my experience, you can't accelerate the process and you can't decisively influence it. You just have to let it happen.
In your case in my end up being easier since you actually fantasized about becoming a woman. I never did. My reasons for transition were neither physical/esthetic nor sexual. That may explain why my crisis came 2 years in rather than right away [tho there was some weirdness in the 1st year too, just not so bad]. Idk. I wish I had a definitive answer.
But look at the bright side: By the end of 2026 you will know. Just don't interrupt.
Soldier on with the shots and just let it happen.
In the meantime meditate (it helped me a lot), and try your best to just get on with your life (I know, it's hard, oh believe me I know, but all the other options are from the repper playbook).
Maybe read some relaxing literature (not porn, but more feminine). Listening to romantic ballads helped me a lot (but then again, I craved romance, so this may not work for you).
And remember: All that matters is you. Forget about what other people think. 99.9%+ of them have no idea and legit don't care anyway.
I still don't fully believe of myself that I'm a woman. The benefits just far outweigh the inconveniences. I learned to love femininity, basically. You're already starting from a better position than me on this front.
Hugs.
(3/3)

>>42233527
OP here
>It feels like past experiences can have a big effect on that too.
Of course. But if you look on the aggregate behaviors of men and women, it's men who DO the empathy. And women who mostly virtue signal about it.
Are there kind and awesome women? Yes, of course! Though my former self would've never agreed because he was locked out of even the theoretical chance of meeting them.
Point being that even nice people are in fact superficial to a large degree and if you don't fit them, then you don't exist. My former self experienced that for over a decade.
I'm not even resentful (anymore). Now that I have seen why, it largely makes sense. Nobody has unlimited bandwidth for everyone.
If I am to joke a bit, my transition was very malebrained because it started as an "improvise, adapt, overcome" attempt.

>How so?
Your explanation isn't bad. I just dk if it's necessarily the case for me. Maybe it is?
My former self certainly was less than a worker bee man. Technically a neet because my "job" was contracting and low pay (routinely under the table).
But what i do know is that my coldness is not automatically dismissed anymore and routinely appreciated. With better socialization I also learned to read the room so I don't blurt my coldness at random or inappropriately, so likely that helps too.

>>42233426
Thank you so much for your detailed reply!
I have a few follow up questions:
1) Would you mind sharing your twisted logic as to how my lack of desire for intimacy would explain me struggling with my AGP and dysphoria "so early"?
2) In the other thread you mentioned being sweet and deferring towards your bf. Was that something you learned over time, like you learned certain behaviours from a theatre instructor, or did this come from instinct? Didn't this clash with your male past at first?

>>42233543
3) AGP fantasies alone were never enough of a justification for me to transition. I just noticed that year by year, I became increasingly disgusted with how my body masculinized (even though, by comparison, I got quite lucky), and felt ever stronger envy towards how women get to style and dress themselves (crossdressing sucks since you still look male doing it). Once I understood that it was only ever going to get worse, I started HRT.

The thing is: I still hate that side of myself with burning passion. I hate the fact that I'm dysphoric, that I have AGP fantasies, that I can't just "man up". Because, and thats I guess the underlying problem: Rationally, I don't see being female as beneficial for myself. I don't want to be weaker, I don't want to be taken less seriously. I enjoy speaking in a commanding tone of voice. And I'm not exacly a looser either. Even though I somewhat struggle right now, I had good grades in school, attend a prestigious european uni, have good work experience already. And during my prime times at the end of high school a few years ago, I was basically a narcissist due to how proud I was of my achievements.

All that is to say: I kinda want my male side to win. So I never have to worry about how to style my makeup and whether to go out at night, but can continue to brute force my way though life. I just want to beat AGP and dysphoria, not my male side.

(okay, this last one wasn't much of a question. more a vent to clarify my problem, I guess)

>>42233543
>The official advice was to shut down my brain with ssris. I thank my lucky stars for refusing that advice. It would've made everything far worse for me.
This is how I feel about executive dysfunction and legal meth, at least for myself.

>>42233809
>1)
The logic is as follows: If one struggles with agp, then one already has built some semblance of feminine identity (even if twisted, fetishized, whatever).
Meanwhile, those who don't/didn't (like me) will require time for that to happen. The physical changes came fast, but the mental changes came much later because there was no pre-existent challenge to my former self.
I admit that my logic may be entirely flawed. But that's how the whole experience felt to me.
To clarify: I did not say your lack of desire for intimacy explains agp. But that your agp might explain why you're having this crisis now (barely 3 months in) instead of much later (as it happened to me).

>2)
A bit of both.
Do keep in mind that I was bisexual already. So the instinct was there to a certain extent, just not developed or exercised because nobody wanted me romantically.
As a result, the entirety of the manifestation of that instinct did end up being socialized feminine right from the get go, thus causing no clash with my male past.
My former self was already dead by that time.
As I was saying here >>42224717 - It was all gradual. I can't pinpoint a particular moment or period to say "this is what broke the dam". I killed my loneliness (and with it large parts of my former self) not by a thousand cuts, but more like 100,000 cuts.

>>42233918
1)
Understood. I mean, I can't entirely understand why one would take HRT without significant AGP or dysphoria, but I'm glad it worked out for you. I guess one really has to have nothing to loose for this path to appear viable.

2)
Okay, thanks for elaborating. I'm still not sure about my own sexuality. I've been attracted only romantically in the past, mostly to women, but I guess a few man seemed interesting as well. But I never tried to get into a relationship because I didn't want to waste their time / dissappoint them. And sexually, my singular focus only ever was to feminize, and to live as a woman, with no fantasy really ever going as far as actual sex. Just not interesting to me.
So I guess thats another thing to work out.

>>42233837
OP here
Some of your comment sounds like me, while other portions don't.
I was valedictorian (i think this is the term in English) in high school. Didn't go to a top-tier european university, but not shit-tier either.
I didn't have agp fantasies but I really resented that I couldn't man up. And kept on trying (that's why I didn't start hrt earlier) firmly convinced that there's got to be a way. That incel loser fought with everything he could. And fought hard. And he started from a better position than you. It's why I'm so surprised (and, yes, happy) that this worked. For all intends and purposes, it shouldn't have worked. But bruteforce and hopelessness were eventually enough.

>I was basically a narcissist
Joking a bit, you'll be fine. A significant minority of women are narcs over their meme achievements. I'm not even sure I'm fully joking.

>I just want to beat AGP and dysphoria, not my male side
I am sorry but I don't think you can.
Best you can hope for is to go through this crisis and at the end of it to conclude that transition is not for you.
The result will be that at least you'll know (plus maybe some annoyance with breast tissue). But there's no definitive win against this. The tranny thoughts will keep on coming back, judging by what the reppers say.
I wish I had a more optimistic answer, but if this could be cured the way you want it, there would be global campaigns in favor of the treatment.
Also, if your male side wins, you are also likely to end up on ssris later in life. And that shit is poison. And it will affect your performances in everything else in life. Staying ssri-free is far more important than people think.
(1/2)

>>42233837
>Rationally, I don't see being female as beneficial for myself. I don't want to be weaker, I don't want to be taken less seriously. I enjoy speaking in a commanding tone of voice
Respectfully, you don't have to renounce all of that.
Yes, you will be taken less seriously, for a while, until you assert your competence in the subject matter. I learned to appreciate that desu. When I'm taken seriously, I know it's because I'm good at what I do/say. Since I'm not pretty/doll, there is no reason to get favors either.
But yes, I started from the situation where I wasn't taken seriously no matter how competent I was, so for me this is an upgrade.
The "commanding tone of voice" is a preference. You can try keeping it too. Heck, I had to learn it (never did as a man) now that I am in a sort-of leadership role. Trust me, it's not inherently a male-coded thing.
As for weaker, yes, your muscle mass does drop. But if that concerns you, you can work out. You can keep a lot of the physical strength.
I worked out for a while too. But eventually dropped it because I didn't like how it made me feel. But you can carry on. You can just do things.

>So I never have to worry about how to style my makeup and whether to go out at night
You think I do?
Nona, you'll not be young forever. And excessive and stylish make-up isn't a top priority even for the vast majority of cis women.
I wrote about clothing and make up here >>42226368
Point being: You're making a mountain out of a molehill.
You don't want to get good with make-up? Then don't.
I did. But now I dress casual 95% of the time. Because most other people don't give a shit either and I no longer feel the need to perform.

>>42234049
Hi,
good to hear that you can at least partially relate to where I start out from.

Just so you know: I am well aware of the risks of SSRIs and don't ever intend to take them. They basically fight symptoms of problems, not the root causes. It's why I so desperately look for alternative approaches / framings through which I could see my AGP and dysphoria, that would allow me to healthily step back from transitioning. Not in the way one would typically call "repression". I tried that and it ground me down.
But more in a way of accepting my situation as a missmatch of certain physical and neurological traits, without needing to fundamentally alter my male identity.
But so far, I haven't found this kind of holy grail of reframing, I guess
And from what you and others tell me, I'm not the first one to unsuccessfully search for it

>>42234129
Thanks for going through all my worries.
Sometimes I suspect that a significant portion of my aversion towards continuing transition is simply internalized sexism / stereotypes. I should probably leave that behind, no matter which path I choose. So it's good to get external opinions on these thoughts of mine.

One more question, that I am entirely okay with you not anwering for privacy reasons: Given you also live in europe, where did you get FFS? Are you satisfied, can you recommend the surgeon?
(again, I totally understand if that is too private a question)

>>42234132
im 39. Knew since 7.
Repressed. Even thought i grew out of it for almost a decade.
Starting hrt today, jan 5. Goddamn it i must try.
I repressed for over 30 yrs. And failed. Maybe there is a way. I just dont know it. I manned up (i actually could, unlike OP), did everything right... but when it came back, it came back 100 times worse. And after 35 it got even worse every year.
So this summer i scheduled laser, got an official diagnosis, now looking into ffs. At least i have money.
I may still never pass, but im done with this void. My thoughts literally dont feel mine at all.

>>42234200
I'm so sorry for you. I hope you can get something out of transition.

Stories like yours is why I've gone from repping to basically HRT repping. Because I've literally never read about it getting better long term.

But, having being raised with the principle of only myself and my own consciousness being the master of my actions and how I deal with my desires being a conscious choice as well, it's just very hard to accept that I can't exterminate that part of myself.

>>42234195
>where did you get FFS?
Facial Team in Spain. It's the more expensive version but they're explicitly focused on trannies. They also have options that are hard to come by elsewhere (such as forehead reconstruction that actually looks good). Their jaw and chin work is world class. Totally worth the extra money.
It really isn't cheap (north of €40k). I went into debt for it.
But I am very satisfied. And I'll be done paying for it by the end of this year too.

The cheaper end is in Türkiye where you can get away with €20k. Worth it if you already have a cute androgynous face.
I went extravagant due to the euphoria of actually making more money after the crisis and also because I knew I won't want anything else anytime soon. So might as well buy the Cadillac and be done with it.
Not the most rational decision, granted, but the results are worth it. Heck, I made the money for half of the debt in the first year. Not having to have "the talk" so often was a huge relief.
I wasn't bothered emotionally by being clocked. But it was becoming tiresome to have to explain it even every once in a while.
Also, passing with zero make-up is worth every eurocent.

>can you recommend the surgeon?
This information would not be helpful to you as the one who operated on me isn't in Europe anymore.
Their team has large rotation but Luis Capitán (the founder) is usually assisting with almost all patients.

>>42234376
Perfect, thank you for the openness

>>42234195
>I suspect that a significant portion of my aversion towards continuing transition is simply internalized sexism / stereotypes. I should probably leave that behind, no matter which path I choose
also OP here
Good mentality to have. At least on stereotypes.
However, do keep in mind that not every "norm" is harmful or sexist or a stereotype. Also, even if it is, that "norm" can still be really useful.
What I'm saying is that questioning and criticizing norms needs to have a limit too.
Too many internalized stereotypes is bad. But no norms is also bad.
Philosophy aside, you and I have to live in reality not on 4chan or in academic books. And in reality certain behaviors simply are more feminine or more masculine. And most (i would say all) of them can be learned.
There is no shame. I learned from age 25 onwards what cis women learned from age 12. There was a gap. It's not my fault. But the gap needn't be permanent.
It fills me with rage when I see 30yo trannies dressing like 12yo girls from 2014 and then they wonder why they get no social acceptance.
Yes, it sucks I didn't get feminine childhood socialization but that doesn't mean everyone else gets to be subjected to my weirdness, even if my weirdness isn't my fault.
Point being: dress your age, behave your age, and just live. Experiment. You'll fuck it up sometimes. It happens. Try again.

>>42234282
>having being raised with the principle of only myself and my own consciousness being the master of my actions and how I deal with my desires being a conscious choice as well, it's just very hard to accept that I can't exterminate that part of myself.
nta but if it's indeed brain miswiring while in utero, it might be like considering the need for water to be something that can be exterminated purely with extreme willpower. I'm glad you're at least on HRT, anon

>>42233544
OP here
Most of the people posting on this board is under 25. Older anons and nonas just lurk or post inconspicuously. I saw a few 40+ anons posting and they got harassed even though they didn't say anything wrong (quit the opposite).
It's why I wasn't sure I should make a thread to begin with.
Too many younger people today are much more anxious. And not just here. I see this IRL too. It's a generational problem. And they also don't seem to grow out of it either (at least not that easily/fast).
On this board I'm a "lateshit" for starting transition at 23. Some here have anxiety attacks because they started at 17 and think it was/is too late.
Zoomers and Alphas really do have a different (and worse/toxic) relationship with age.

>>42234548
True. One of my guiding principles, assuming I continue transition, is definitely that I don't want to fall into this cringe tranny category. I think, if one follows the school of thought of AGP fantasies being a way to cope with gender dysphoria / transition desires, it makes some sense that the longer one fully and unconsciously represses (therefore also not being able to reflect, develop taste and nuance), the more extreme the disparity becomes between reality (in terms of age, looks) and the point where behaviour and style start to really differ (early teens). So basically, the longer one reps, the greater the desire to make up for that lost time, resulting (in combination with arrested development due to trans inclinations) in this stereotypically cringy style and behaviour.

But I'm aware of that, so I'll hopefully avoid these kinds of extravagancies.

>>42234549
I guess one could see it that way. But given there is no definitive brain scan method today that would reveal one to be "legitimately trans" (whatever that means) or delusional and capable of living as cis, to me it doesn't feel as clear cut as the need for water. Especially since for the last 21 years, I've managed to at least survive as male. 21 years without water sounds like more of a challenge.

>>42232874
Not the anon you're replying, but OP
>could it be selection bias?
Respectfully, I don't think so.
Almost everything I read from older pooners is a version of how it was for me before transition.
I generally look for the accounts of older people (cis and trans) because they offer a more sober and less brainwormed view. Also, it's good to listen from them even if we end up disagreeing. At least we get to avoid some of their mistakes.
Point being, older pooners usually say that overall it was still a good decision to poon out but caution that the socialization and socializing gap is indeed brutal and that's something young pooners should take into account.
Basically, you guys have to do roughly the same thing we do. You have to get comfortable with the death of your feminine identity, including the good things that came with it.
I'm not going to claim I understand it entirely, but I do get this part (read my other comments here).

>or is AFAB GD really that much more bearable than what I'm used to living, compared to life as a woman
Only you know the answer to that.
Statistically, this does seem to be the case. But it's obviously not always true, or otherwise there would be no old(er) pooners.

>or is this more about the trenders and afabs that hate their femininity due to trauma?
Certainly this does play a role.
But this seems to be improving, imo. Trenders and theyfabs are on the decline so with their interference gone, things should clear up. I hope.
Good luck, bro!

>>42234727
>there is no definitive brain scan method today that would reveal one to be "legitimately trans" (whatever that means)

There kinda is.
See this: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8955456/

And this: https://www.ese-hormones.org/media/ei0psrhz/transgender-brains-are-more-like-their-desired-gender-from-an-early-age.pdf

But, frankly, this isn't that important.
Under this model, I would've never transitioned. Also >>42234200 would have likely had a different result when she thought she "grew out of it" than today.
There certainly is a birth defect in us, but neuroplasticity is also a thing. That's why I'm much more interested in "how do we address it" rather than "why it exists".
Sure, it's fascinating, but my former self wouldn't have been helped by it at all. And even now, I can't be bothered to care why I like being a woman. I'm just glad I can finally live and be loved.
Being "true" or "fake" is derailment, imo. It doesn't help anyone.

>>42234727
>But given there is no definitive brain scan method today that would reveal one to be "legitimately trans" (whatever that means) or delusional and capable of living as cis,
well we do have those 4+ fMRI studies from 2008 onward that showed tranners (even pre-hrt) had certain areas of their brains look more like their felt gender
also surviving might just mean you have sufficient dissociation/tolerance skills - e.g. I survive my current disaster of a life but many others in my place would have either done a lot more drastic changes (and started living or made it worse), or would have committed train delay

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>>42230903
>Are you satisfied with the SRS results?
Yeah, my dysphoria surrounding that area is completely gone now. And I can have normal heterosexual sex with my bf now which is really fulfilling. The only weird bit is I now feel pretty far removed from what I used to be growing up. It feels like my life only really started when I transitioned and didn't really fully start until I'd healed from SRS. It feels like I lost 25 years not being myself until then.

>>42232962
OP here
>the incel-to-tranny pipeline
Does that even exist for real? Even on this board lurking I spotted at best two others.
It's why I asked the question in the post. If the phenomenon is more widespread (and it may indeed be), then nobody knows.
Either the former incels are not successful, or they're so successful they don't want to talk about their former selves.
Both are possible but the latter is also understandable because not even the lgbt community is too sympathetic to incels. Also, I do think a lot of those even moderately successful probably do resemble me - colder (or less emotional) and not much into communities.
I could be wrong entirely, ofc. But I did make this post in a euphoric/emotional/happy moment. The NYE party was gr8, Christmas was gr8 but now I have some extra free days while bf doesn't. So... why not share something lol

>until society, the useful idiot manhaters, and the grifters and crazies that fuel that entire thing, hopefully decide to change course to something less evil
I'm not that optimistic.
Normative misandry has been a thing for a long time. Disdain and even outright hatred for incels is what basically everyone does.
Again, 100% of my life is post-transition. Except for my dad, approximately nobody truly liked me even platonically, let alone romantically.

>>42234862
>>42234910
Oh, interesting. I guess I should read up on this stuff.

I just brought this up because even if there might be some studies indicating brain "miswirings" commonly associated with trooning out, I am of course in no position right now to have my brain analyzed like that, just because I'm insecure. And as long as I have no "neurological proof", I can't rule out that I'm just a delusional man who, with the right mindset, could live happily as cis (even though I feel that the likelyhood of that option being possible is rather low).

But you're right, that mindset is probably not helpful. If I manage to pass at some point, and maybe even find joy in presenting female publicly, then I guess the question of legitimacy becomes a less burning one.

>>42234939
>I now feel pretty far removed from what I used to be growing up
>It feels like I lost 25 years not being myself until then
I can certainly relate to that. It's just that I haven't come up with a way to finish the chapter. The best I can say is "my former self" or "that guy". We knew each other, but we're not the same and he had to go for everything to improve.
I certainly don't miss him. And he's out of my mind entirely when I fall asleep in the warming arms of my man.
As time goes on, I don't even resent anything anymore. It's how things ended up being. Dwelling on the past, and him, isn't going to help me. Building a life with my man will, though.
I probably wouldn't have become the woman I am without that past.

>srs
Glad you're satisfied.
I have no reason to consider it for now. We're both happy with the current state. I didn't have bottom dysphoria and still don't.
If the technology evolves enough to my liking, I'll do it. If not, then I won't.
But I'm really happy for you. No joke.
Those of us in this situation should probably speak up more often. And show there is a way to win.

Q: where did you get srs? or what method? (pure curiosity, don't answer if it's not comfortable)

maybe its shallow but one of my biggest takeaways from this thread is that transmaxxing genuinely works for incels who have strong passoid potential (like op being 165cm/5'5in tall jesus christ) and that you could be the truest "i knew for a fact since 4" tranny on the planet but if your genes and development say otherwise your only hope is to learn how to cope with being a freak or spend lifetimes worth of money on surgery

>t. a tranny whos neurotic about being trutrans and fembrained as a cope for the fact that its over bc my appearance, not my mind

>>42232449
>>42235776
Idk why being called a transmaxxer makes me feel weird. But I guess the intentions don't matter to anyone and the result is way too close to transmaxxing for anyone to care about nuance.

>like op being 165cm/5'5in tall jesus christ
Granted. My height was an absolute curse as a man, but a strong foundation for transition.
But otoh I spent over €40k just on ffs alone. I'm still not done paying down the debt on that.

One of my consistent cisf friends is 177cm (5'9?) and while she towers over most women she also looks kinda like a hon. The reason I bring this up is to underscore that more often than not the "it's over" story may not be quite true.

I'm not trying to deny your neuroticism, >>42235776 , in fact I really hope you find a way to make things better. But I am saying that embracing a mentality aimed at winning usually does make things better (yes, not equally better for everyone, but still).

Tearing yourself down won't make things better.
But taking some of the actionable advice might.

I partially get the resentment. It's not too different from the one I held at 21-22 for the lives of women. But it leads nowhere, nona.

Hugs.

>>42236092
to be fair in your case it does genuinely sound like it was either transition or suicide so while i think your transition would still reasonably be called transmaxxing its at least a much more genuine attempt than many others.
and im mostly just seething bc ive wanted to be feminine basically my whole life and was lowkey forced by my parents and surroundings to be into girls but bc of religious upbringing i had no idea what trans people even were until puberty was pretty much done. now im ~181cm with an outlandish jaw, shoulder, and ribcage combo and the possibility of living just a normal womans life seems nonexistent (which i know is irrational and defeatist especially bc im not even 21 yet)
anyway sorry for yapping but genuinely glad that worked out for u op, i hope all that effort keeps paying off and u live a fulfilling rest of ur life <3

You barely mentioned you parents. How did they react? Do you still have a relationship with them? Are you their only child?

>>42222223
If ig this right, you started transition around 2017.
How did you manage to stay course through the whole online trans mania?
Asking because i nearly didnt start due to how offputting too many spaces were.
Related, how did you resist the urge not to honmode or post pics everywhere?

>>42229842
I did feminize my original name and added a middle name that for some reason I always liked. I kept my last name. I probably will take my bf's name if/when we get married.
I mentioned a bit about parents here >>42224476
To add, my dad was more supportive than my mom. He always felt that something was wrong with me so from his perspective this at least answered the question.
Mom was more meh about it. But then later on she offered to help me with clothing. Tbh she wasn't that good.
As for extended family, I'm mostly disconnected from them. Grandparents died when I was still a kid and the wider extended family (aunts, uncles, etc.) were kinda dicks so one by one they were excluded by my dad (and I agreed with him then, and still agree with him now).

>>42236643
Yes, I am their only child.
Yes, I still have a relationship with them. But more closer with dad. They're still married and getting ready to retire.
My mom has gotten more accepting since I moved in with my bf. Any doubt she might have had about this being a phase likely got blown out by 2024 when I sent her a vacation photo from Spain.
In a way it is a blessing (even though I saw it as a curse at 23) that there are basically no people who knew me before transition. For everyone who knows me, i've always been a woman from their perspective.
I didn't focus on my parents at all because they had no contribution. And I would've been perfectly fine if they rejected me too.
My former self low-key resented them for raising me poorly. But now I can't be bothered even to resent them. It is what it is. Life's too short to dwell on stuff that happened 15+ years ago.