US is a country where people have no healthcare, but we bomb and kill people overseas. It's a culture of death.

>many
how many?

>>42254281
One of the only truly based things the Trump admin is doing. "Gender-affirming care" has been laundered into the medical-industrial complex, so it's difficult to shut it down completely. Pressure from the federal gov here will prevent at least a few kids from being castrated.

It's a shame the US doesn't have universal healthcare, we could do what the UK is where they make the waitlists 5-6 years long. God willing in a couple of decades we'll view "Gender-affirming care" the way we do the lobotomy now.

stop tolerating faith and this stops happening

>>42254355
I hope you die from preventable diseases because the govt hates you

>>42254437
>"Let me castrate myself and crossdress 24/7 or I'll kill myself and if I do it will be your fault"

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726 KB PNG

>>42254355
>we'll view "Gender-affirming care" the way we do the lobotomy now
ik this is ragebait but how is being treated like a human being at the doctors office on the same level as turning someones frontal lobe into a slushee??

>>42254445

>i refuse to acknowledge gender dysphoria as a legitimate mental illness because i am ideologically primed not to

>>42254499
Doesn't even need to be GD. PAIS and primary hypogonadism exist and GAC is useful for treating those conditions.

>>42254479
for a man, castration is equivalent to lobotomy

>>42254569
Is it because you think with your balls?

>>42254355
>being castrated.
HRT does not cause permanent chemical castration. Please stop with the fear mongering about a subject you clearly have zero idea what you are talking about.

>>42254569
>for a man, castration is equivalent to lobotomy
Who is being "castrated" here? You can undergo SRS once you hit 18 years old, but that's genital reconstruction into a neovagina. It's not "castration" per say, because they are not men, they are women trying to reconstruct their body to the structure of a women. A man who is castrated is a men without a penis.

>>42254583
it's a crucially important part of the male central nervous system

>>42254549
Yes and those conditions are all gatekept behind a diagnosis and proven treatments, as opposed to self-diagnosis and patient responsibility under the guise of informed consent.

>>42254569
is that why you're so fucking stupid

>>42254316
Four theyfabs

>>42254773

The fact is that detransition/desistence is trivially easy compared to transition. The gatekeeper model might protect a few cis detransitioners, but it comes at the expense of a lot of trans people who don't have the material means to access psychiatric services. In short informed consent is good for trans people, the gatekeeper model is good for cis people.

>>42254850
What you call informed consent is not informed consent. Informed consent is a general principle of medical ethics, it’s not a unique method of dispensing hrt whereby the patient assumes all medical responsibility by singing a ”no will sue” waiver. It’s never been an alternative to medical gatekeeping, it still means a doctor is supposed to decide the correct treatment and take responsibility for it, but that the patient should understand what it entails.

And is the consent here even informed? Objectively speaking, so many people say untrue things about hrt, so its observably not even informed often.

>>42254773
Informed consent is only for adults, dipshit.

>>42254479
Nah it's not even rage bait. You realize when they were giving people lobotomies they genuinely thought it was helpful? "Being treated as a human being at the doctor's office" does not require providing "medical treatments" that manifestly harm the body.

There are quite a many people who suffer from BID- they desperately want to have limbs amputated, and report dysphoria over it. But we don't let doctors remove their legs because doing so would be harmful. Similarly, we shouldn't carve neovaginas out of people's penises because they're dysphoric, because doing so would be harmful. Although I suspect people around here would support doctor's doing leg amputations for BID sufferers (they report remarkably similar experiences to trans people, you should check out some of their forums).

>>42254499
You have to think about what a DSM diagnosis actually is. When you get diagnosed with a mental illness, it's because you've had symptoms that meet a set of diagnostic criteria. That's all "mental illnesses" are- checklists of symptoms with labels attached.

So is gender dysphoria a "legitimate mental illness"? It doesn't matter, it's just a set of symptoms. The question is how to treat those symptoms, and I don't think affirming the gender dysphoric person and feeding into their obsession/delusional beliefs about their gender/sex is helpful, much less giving them HRT or sending them off for surgery.

>>42254589
Fuck off, I'm literally a detroon. Yes, fertility *usually* comes back after stopping HRT, but not always, and even if you go off the E your reproductive system is permanently affected- lower libido, ED, etc.

>>42254927

The existence of mis/disinformation does not mean informed consent is invalid. The practitioner dispenses the best available information to the patient and diagnoses the patient with an unspecified gender disorder if they meet the criteria to consent. What the patient does with information gathered outside the walls of the clinic has nothing to do with what the practitioner dispenses. Also your history is incorrect, at least in the States, the informed consent model explicitly replaced the gatekeeper model in 2015.

>>42254999
Actually severe BID is literally treated via amputation.

No one is going on HRT without explicitly desiring it, and anyone can cease treatment at any time.

>>42254999
Are you that crazy eyes tiktoker detroon

>>42255018
Informed consent isnt a model its a principle of ethics. Its not exclusive to hrt and its never in any other case an alternative to a doctor diagnosis. And you are contradicting yourself, if a person is misinformed then that means the conditions for informed consent has not been met. If the existence of misinformation is within the patient then yes it invalidates informed consent. Of course CONSENT only makes sense when you are consenting to the treatment as prescribed by the doctor, in other words, the patient doesnt decide per se, they only accept one of the options first decided upon by the responsible doctor. So informed consent only makes sense if gatekeeping exists.

>>42254850
No, informed consent is very dangerous. What other mental illness is there, where you can just walk into a clinic, say you have it, and walk out with medications that will affect your body permanently? Can you self-report ADHD and get Adderall, or self-report depression and get Zoloft through informed consent? No, it's a basic principle of medical ethics that you actually have to know someone has a condition in order to treat them for it (even if you accept that GAC is an appropriate treatment for GD, which I don't).

I'm sorry, it's absolutely retarded that a severely ill 18-year old can schedule an appointment with a clinic and then walk out three months later with a prescription for HRT without any psychiatric assessment.

>>42255046
It's only been treated via amputation in a few cases, and very controversially. If amputation as a treatment for BID was widespread like you're implying, they wouldn't be sticking their legs in dry ice for twelve hours and then driving to the ER to get their legs cut off. If you check out the BID forums, their number one complaint is that doctors won't just cut off the limb they want.

>>42254499
Gender dysphoria is an erotic target location error, not a medical condition.

>>42255082

You're arguing about concepts not reality. "Model" refers to the system of healthcare. There is a tangible difference in how trans healthcare was dispensed before and after 2015 following widespread adoption of WPATH-7 and these two systems are referred to as models.

https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/article/informed-consent-medical-care-transgender-and-gender-nonconforming-patients/2016-11

Sure is weird how obsessed some people are with freezing children's development and making them look permanently underage even as adults

>>42255099
Actually you literally can get SSRIs on a first visit to a psych. I literally did that when I was a teenager.

>>42255181
HRT doesn't freeze development, shit-for-brains. It's cissoid trash that advocated for the "shove them on blockers for three years."

>>42255099

...Yes, the entire basis of psychiatric diagnosis is based upon symptoms of the complaining patient. You quite literally can schedule a consultation with a psychiatrist, complain of ADHD symptoms, and be prescribed Adderall.

Informed consent of HRT is not dangerous because use can cease at literally any time with virtually no consequences. Adults take greater risk by taking multiple NSAIDs simultaneously than the "risk" of accidentally transitioning for 2 years before realizing you didn't actually want to transition.

>>42255164
Wrong I am talking about reality, that is that informed consent an ethical principle that is applied to ALL medicine. It is the reality today. Its not some hrt exclusive thing. And it does not stand in contradiction to ”gatekeeping” in the sense that the doctor has responsibility. The ultimate irony is that people are misinformed about what informed consent even means!

>>42255214
HRT freezes development too, otherwise you wouldn't clamor for its use in children: you'd be okay with people waiting until adulthood before starting.

>>42255227

Done replying, you clearly don't know what you're talking about. Read the article I linked if you want to educate yourself.

>>42255241
ffs you dont even read the links you post. It literally agrees with me
>Informed consent is a concept that is familiar to clinicians. On a practical, day-to-day basis, informed consent is often implied rather than explicitly ensured, and whether explicit or implied, informed consent is the ethical and legal basis for most patient care decisions.

>>42255228
>freezes development
>it actually just changes development
kys troll

>>42255192
You don't even need to see a psych to get HRT, you can go through a nurse practitioner. And SSRIs are way less risky than HRT.

>>42255226
Wow, again you actually have to see a psychiatrist to get Adderall, that's wild. I wish HRT had that requirement. And again, Adderall is lower risk than HRT.

And no, you can't just quit after two years with "virtually no consequences". In FtMs, you'd still be left with a deep voice, t-dick, extra body and facial hair, and potentially other health issues, and in MtFs you would be left with gynecomastia and potentially ED/low libido, depending on whether you took pills or injectables.

This ignores the fact that it's not as simple as "take HRT for two years and realize you didn't actually want to transition". Once you've been on HRT for two years, there's enormous sunk cost especially if you've undergone a social transition, so you have motivated reasoning to continue your transition. If you look at the public detroons, a majority of them were trans-identifying for 5+ years and may have gotten surgery.

>>42255305
You want to make adults who look like permanent teenagers, sicko

>>42255283
you think I disagree with that quote or anything stated in the article, you never understood what we were talking about in the first place.

Thanks for reaffirming my view than detransitioners are just retarded though.

>>42255384
Im not the detransitioner. As per the article, informed consent is used every day where it means something completely different than in the hrt ”model”. IMO it’s clever deception by whoever chose to call the model by that term.

>>42255317
SSRIs are actually pretty risky. Serotonin syndrome and permanent arrhythmia are serious risks for a medicine that doesn't actually help much.

>>42255317

Adults undertaking cosmetic alterations to their bodies are not "taking on risk" any more than women getting boob jobs. If you decide to detransition and are unhappy with the effects, that is not the fault of the medical system, you were an adult and you opted in. Seriously, grow up and start blaming yourself instead of gesturing vaguely at the Internet and medical institutions.

>>42255320
>permanent teenagers
>it's literally just mostly cis-passing or slightly clocky adults

>>42255458
>its life saving healthcare and a human right, until it isnt and was just a lifestyle choice
gonna have to pick one or the other

>>42255466
>tranny sex blindness and autoephebophilia strikes again

>>42255473
Care can be life saving for some and lifestyle choices for others. HRT is not the only medication like this.

>>42255508
Except its the SAME person. When a person hasnt or is still transitioning its healthcare. When they detrans it was always just a lifestyle choice.

>>42255534
>person who doesn't end up needing care doesn't need care
wow

That and a lot of detranners detransition due to social pressure OR because they alleviated their dysphoria and being their AGAB works for them socially

>>42255415

Informed consent is self-determination, it is the practitioners' responsibility to dispense information, and if the patient has the capacity to consent, they have the capacity to determine the necessity or non-necessity of the treatment. The implementation of informed consent as a system of dispensing care is referred to as a "model", in contrast to the prior model, which typically involved (1) social transition for at least one year prior to HRT, (2) 6 months of continuous psychiatry, and (3) formal diagnoses of gender dysphoria/transsexualism.

WPATH-7, published in 2012, explored the shortcomings of the "gatekeeper model". Specifically, the self-selection bias it produced, as the only people who were able to access prescribed HRT were typically (1) young/passing, as very few adults were willing to endure the humiliation ritual of social transition prior to HRT, (2) insured or comparatively wealthy, as psychiatry and continuous therapy is expensive and trans people are a materially marginalized demographic.

>>42255458
If HRT/surgery is just cosmetic, why should it be covered by insurance? And why would denying someone HRT/surgery be destroying their life if again it's just cosmetic?

And buddy believe me I blame myself plenty. Nobody forced me to stick the estrogen needle in my thigh. I take responsibility for my poor decision-making, but it is relevant that my poor decision-making was enabled by a medical system that said HRT is a good treatment for gender dysphoria and a community that teaches that "repression" will inevitably lead to suicide or john 50ing.

If someone with BID gets a doctor to cut off their leg, and they regret it, the person with BID does have responsibility for choosing to get their leg amputated, but the doctor/medical system also bears responsibility for facilitating their act of self-harm.

>>42255558
Only trannies who will be able to pass should transition. There would be far fewer optics nukes.

>>42255554
>X transitions
they were always trans
>X detransitions
they were never trans!

>>42255560

A cosmetic alteration does not mean it's not healthcare. Go tell a victim of an acid attack or severe facial burns that their reconstructive surgery shouldn't be insured.

You thought HRT would help you. It didn't. Get off /tttt/, that will help you more than anything else I can patiently explain to you.

>>42255558
>on, it is the practitioners' responsibility to dispense information
no, they have to make sure they’ve UNDERSTOOD the information. It’s not enough to act like a tape recorder and just ”dispense” the information. No degree is required to be a tape recorder.

>if the patient has the capacity to consent, they have the capacity to determine the necessity or non-necessity of the treatment.
That is a retarded thing to say, the entire reason the clinician exists is to determine if and which treatment is needed. That is why they have medical responsibility.

>>42255560
you sound like a future retrooner tbhon

>>42255631

The practitioner diagnoses the patient before prescribing anything. "Understanding" the effects of the prescription is as simple as explaining it to the patient and asking if they have any questions or concerns, which happens once in every unspecified gender disorder diagnosis and twice at the pharmacy. You cannot be prescribed HRT without a diagnosis of GID. A patient can fool a provider into diagnosing them with GID by rattling off the symptoms, just as they can fool a provider into diagnosing depression, anxiety, ADHD, autism, schizophrenia, narcolepsy, or any other psychiatric affliction. The fact that people only complain about so-called "self diagnosis" of gender dysphoria is political backlash to trans people and you're retarded if you think otherwise. If you want to finger a real issue of medical malpractice, look to the mass prescription of SSRIs to teenagers exhibiting symptoms of social media addiction, instead of wasting your breath protecting the one in one hundred informed consent patients who end up detransitioning.

>>42255762
>The practitioner diagnoses the patient before prescribing anything.
ok so they can say no you are not trans(eg correctly identifying future detrans people)?

>>42255570
It's the classic No True Scotsman fallacy. "No trans person detransitions", then when a trans person detransitions, they say "that person wasn't *truly* trans then".

>>42255554
Wow, who knew that castrating yourself, crossdressing 24/7, and trying to pass yourself off as a woman when you're male would cause conflict. "Transphobia" is never going away, so serious enough social pressure can be a good reason to refrain from transitioning or for detransitioning.

>>42255611
So in your first reply, HRT/surgery is just like a cis woman getting a boob job, but in your second reply suddenly HRT/surgery is just like reconstructive surgery after an acid attack.

These are totally different, because reconstructive surgery after an acid attack is medically necessary, while a boob job in a cis woman is not.

I believe you would maintain that HRT/surgery is medically necessary, so no, I didn't get a cosmetic treatment done in the way a woman would get a boob job. Nobody believes a boob job is medically necessary, but I was convinced HRT was medically necessary as in not optional to treat my GD, which means that the medical system does bear some responsibility given that GAC for the purposes of treating GD is harmful/immoral, which I believe it is.

>>42255681
Highly unlikely

>>42255786
oh you're absolutely a future retrooner

>>42255778

Not necessarily because a detransitioner would still meet the criteria of having an unspecified gender identity disorder. The practitioner is not there to verify the authenticity of your gender identity, but to inform and ensure understanding of the effects of HRT and provide safe means of access to it. The diagnosis of GID is half formality (prescriptions require diagnoses) and half logical consequence of a patient complaining of GID symptoms. If you walk into a Planned Parenthood and tell them you want testosterone even though you have no interest in masculinization, you will not be diagnosed with GID or given a prescription, because you fail to meet the criteria of informed consent (understanding effects).

>>42255050
xe is
>>42255099
> Can you self-report ADHD and get Adderall,
you can
>self-report depression and get Zoloft through informed consent
getting depression diagnosis is so easy it might as well be

>>42255907
So you’re saying the diagnosis is a sham and has nothing to do with the treatment. Are you really surprised of public backlash when people find out about this deception?

>>42255955
>diagnosis is a sham
>describes the process of diagnosing any psychiatric disorder
you may be retarded

>>42255786
>It's the classic No True Scotsman fallacy. "No trans person detransitions", then when a trans person detransitions, they say "that person wasn't *truly* trans then".
actually it's usually the detransitioner themselves saying they were never truly trans, and when they say "i do still experience gender dysphoria i just found god and know that being a tranny is a reality denying sin" we all say they're just reppers now
>So in your first reply, HRT/surgery is just like a cis woman getting a boob job, but in your second reply suddenly HRT/surgery is just like reconstructive surgery after an acid attack.
>These are totally different, because reconstructive surgery after an acid attack is medically necessary, while a boob job in a cis woman is not.
not that anon, but breast cancer patients do get boob jobs covered by insurance if it's still viable after a mastectomy

>>42255955

Unspecified gender identity diagnosis is a sham, yes, which is why it is not the same as a diagnosis of gender dysphoria or transsexualism, at least one of which are universally recognized requirements for permanent surgical reconstruction.

GID lets you get HRT, nothing more.

>>42255786
>It's the classic No True Scotsman fallacy. "No trans person detransitions", then when a trans person detransitions, they say "that person wasn't *truly* trans then".
who is "they"? anybody who you're arguing at the moment, regardless of their actual opinions on the topic?

>So in your first reply, HRT/surgery is just like a cis woman getting a boob job, but in your second reply suddenly HRT/surgery is just like reconstructive surgery after an acid attack.
one man might use testosterone after his balls have been removed for cancer, the other might use it to grow muscle. Don't know how that's a revolutionary concept, but considering that you're a genuine christcultist it might be (I know you noah)

>Nobody believes a boob job is medically necessary
if you define "medically necessary" as "will spontaneously die in hours if not offered" then yes. However, that definition is retarded, just like (You)
>because reconstructive surgery after an acid attack is medically necessary
not by your supposed definition

>harmful/immoral
christoids should not be allowed to speak about "morality", given that the only thing stopping you from murdering and raping people is threat of permament torture

>>42255786
>castrating yourself, crossdressing 24/7, and trying to pass yourself off as a woman when you're male would cause conflict
this is your mind on christniggery

>>42254850
But the problem with informed consent is that a lot of pro trans activists are constantly aggressively lying, starting with claims like puberty blocked are totally safe and reversible or that their arguments are science - based etc

>>42256680
puberty blockers are safe and reversible until you're like 15, but if you keep delaying puberty there are consequences
>or that their arguments are science - based
they are, objectively. whether or not you think that science is sound is up to you, but the current model is based on research

>>42256710
Objectively? not really. Cherrypicking (shit) studies that support your arguments while ignoring the ones that challenge them is total bullshit. When it comes to care for minors it'd be especially important to admit that it's kinda messy and there's no reliable data etc if/when that's the case, instead of lying that it's all super clear and super researched and "objectively" good for you and ~life-saving~ and no one ever regrets anything and if you don't do it you'll kill yourself and anyone who thinks hormones for teens is a bad idea wants to kill you and hates you

The more I read up on the science and the actual data behind the studies that supposedly support the arguments, the more disgusted I become. It's all a goddamn cardhouse of lies, and it's unfortunately going to really do a number on trans and queer acceptance and rights once the mainstream cottons on to what "protect trans kids" actually means

>>42255943
You're saying I can make an appointment at a clinic, walk in three months later, sign a consent form, and walk out with a prescription from a nurse practitioner for Adderall if I self-report ADHD? Nah dude

>>42255982
Some say they were "never trans", but this isn't my position because I think the category "trans" has no meaning beyond referring to someone who identifies as trans and undergoes a social and/or medical transition. So I was trans then, I'm not now.

The "they're all reppers" position is more consistent, and I have found God and do think that being a tranny is a reality denying sin, but I don't experience nearly as much GD as I did when I began transitioning / I don't meet diagnostic criteria for GD anymore, so I don't really consider myself a repper.

>>42255995
>who is "they"
the people in this thread who are arguing with me, correct

I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make with the middle bit, but I didn't even attempt to define medically necessary, it's determined by doctors and insurance companies.

In fact, I would agree that HRT/surgery were medically necessary were it not for the fact that taking hormones or getting surgery to alter your sexed body is intrinsically immoral (and also harmful in my view, since it seems like you're basically affirming a delusional belief).

>the only thing stopping you from murdering or raping people is threat of permanent torture
this is such a low-tier strawman of Christian morality. You don't need to be a Christian to act morally i.e. understand that rape and murder are bad. God gives us a conscience for a reason

>>42256015
Truth hurts

>>42257074
The slogan being "protect the dolls" is telling. They want to turn children into dolls, not into healthy adults.

>>42257090
you are the most retarded faggot on the board

>>42257090

>discussing informed consent that only applies to adults 18+ btw

>>42257080
>christcuck troons out for a bit and reduces dysphoria
>christcuck is opposed to the same for others

>>42257074
>Cherrypicking (shit) studies that support your arguments while ignoring the ones that challenge them is total bullshit.
Great that we agree that claims about puberty blockers "stunting mental development" are fake

>The more I read up on the science and the actual data behind the studies that supposedly support the arguments, the more disgusted I become.
t. didn't read the studies and instead relies on substack nigger rambling
Also wait until you see the desistance stoody bullshit. Or the "agp" bullshit. Or the "rogd" bullshit. Or the sheep study bullshit

>>42254281
Until you guys figure out that chaining yourselves to child transitioning is political acid to normies, you're going to continue losing.

>>42257127
Yeah this would be a fair criticism if it was the HRT that actually fixed my dysphoria. It wasn't. It was a mindset change that fixed my dysphoria, and these days I'm quite a bit more distressed about the leftover effects of E than I am with being male.

>>42257074
The actual data we have shows that people who transition younger report higher QoL than older transitioners, that detransition rates are incredibly low, that most detransitioners retransition, and that most detransitioners who do so permanently report not regretting exploring their identity.

>>42257080
>this is such a low-tier strawman of Christian morality
Is it wrong though? That's the main moral defense of christianity that was instilled into me on religion lessons, repeated by pastors and nuns.

>The "they're all reppers" position is more consistent, and I have found God and do think that being a tranny is a reality denying sin
So you're a deluded coping retard?
>it's determined by doctors and insurance companies
If you were using that, you'd notice that boob jobs are covered in many cases, depending on insurance
>the fact that taking hormones or getting surgery to alter your sexed body is intrinsically immoral
Christniggery is immoral
>affirming a delusion
Like christniggery?

>>42257170
>mindset change
>christniggery
ok see you when you John50

>>42257136

>it's okay to abandon healthcare for trans youth because right wing propagandists invented a narrative that it's actually relevant

>>42257170
>It was a mindset change that fixed my dysphoria
It doesn't seem "fixed" considering how ridiculously fixated you are on trannies "i miss rubbing my browbone" ""guy"". You can't even fake reverse dysphoria properly you retard

>>42257178

john50 discovers God and his latent narcissism leads him to believe all trans people are making a mistake because he made a mistake, more at 11

>>42257198
>I keep punching my arm and it keeps giving me a bruise. It only happens because of the right wing propaganda and if we would all just say "punching your arm doesn't give you bruises" it would stop giving us bruises

>>42254499
>you must treat my mental illness with elective cosmetic surgery

>>42257442
>it's actually the right wingers that are causing the bruises

>>42257188
>Is it wrong though?
What your pastors/nuns were probably trying to get across is that God is required to fully understand why murder/rape are objectively immoral. Because we have a conscience, we intuitively understand that murder and rape are objectively immoral, but you need God to fit that intuition into a cohesive system of objective morality.

>Am I deluded?
No, but if I was, I wouldn't know

>Am I coping?
Certainly

>boob jobs are covered in many cases, depending on insurance
Yes, almost always for reconstructive purposes. Your point? I won't bother responding to the last bit.

>>42257208
Call it a special interest. I do actually experience reverse dysphoria tho

>>42257272
You replied to someone else, but I actually don't think that all trans people are making a mistake because I made a mistake. I think all trans people are making a mistake because transitioning is immoral/sinful, and so it necessarily can't be positive.

>>42257555
A fake hell cant create real morality. And you’re such a liar since you just reworded the initial allegation, typical dishonest apologist antics.

>>42257555
What biblical support do you have for transitioning being sinful? Cmon, cite a verse or two.

>>42257816
1 corinthians 11:14

>>42257178
No it actually doesn't. I've read through a lot of the studies quoted to me that supposedly prove those things, and they tend to have shit data with rather short timespans and small sample sizes (one had like 15 people asked 2 months after starting hormones if they felt happier, most only track like 2 years max). There are also other studies with contradicting results, that are conveniently ignored. I keep seeing a 0,1% rate for detransitioning quoted and dug it up and it was from around the goddamn 1980s - reliable newer data with proper long term follow up is hard to find, but some studies suggest newer detransitioning rates might be close to 30% and climbing.

The data is nowhere near as clear as trans activists like to lie. It's all just lies and mistruths and cherrypicking

Also, even institutions like WPATH with their "standards of care" that are very widely quoted, turn out to ideology-based and actually SUPPRESS data they don't like:

>Litigation discovery revealed further politicization—this time through the creation of the standards of care for transgender-identifying minors. In 2022, an organization of self-appointed experts and activists[24] called the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) issued updated standards of care for medical interventions for transgender-identifying minors.[25] Several medical associations issued policy statements adopting these standards wholesale.[26]

>But as revealed during discovery in a case concerning Alabama’s law prohibiting puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones, and surgeries on minors, evidence-based science appeared to have little to do with WPATH’s standards. Internal communications showed that WPATH acted on the advice from “social justice lawyers” when it deliberately declined to conduct a systematic review (unlike its European counterparts) before crafting treatment recommendations for minors.[27]
Contd

>>42258033
>They determined that “evidence-based review reveals little or no evidence and puts us in an untenable position in terms of affecting policy or winning lawsuits.”[28] One WPATH author was more succinct: “[W]e need[] a tool for our attorneys to use in defending access to care.”[29] But WPATH went a step further: after hiring Johns Hopkins to review the evidence, WPATH suppressed the publication of the team’s conclusion that “little to no evidence” supported experimental transgender medicine for minors.[30]

https://journals.law.harvard.edu/jlpp/the-facade-of-medical-consensus-chloe-jones/#:~:text=An%20Untenable%20Position.%20.%20.,defending%20access%20to%20care.%E2%80%9D%5B

It's all ideology-based lies and bullshit and suppressing data and ignoring studies, all the way to the top. Every time there's a discussion about this online, the same lies get repeated, "The data objectively shows" blah blah, "science based" blah blah, "research confirms", blah, "life-saving care".

It's heinous. Lying to minors in order to persuade them to get on permanently life-altering meds and operations

>>42258033

not reading alla that, transition saved my life, have fun john50ing

>>42258075
I want to emphasise: The goddamn WPATH, whose newest "standards of care" were quoted in this thread as if they're reliable experts, admit in their internal communications that

- they know that facts and evidence do NOT support their claims, recommendations or "standards", esp. when it comes to care for minors,
- despite this, they want to find a "tool" to force meds on minors despite knowing there's no real proof it it being beneficial,
- and that they actively suppress research results they ordered, showing that there's practically NO evidence that supports medical "gender affirming care" for minors.

They know they're lying and that the data doesn't "objectively" support their claims at all. And yet people keep repeating their lies about "life saving" "healthcare" being "supported by science"

>>42258033
>some studies
The highest quality of studies, ones that track down patients and actually confirm their studies, tend to find detransition rates are incredibly low. Like, 2 out of 200+.

>>42258080
WPATH are lying and know they're lying, and can't find any evidence to back up their "standards" on youth care at all, and are suppressing data they don't like

So the WPATH standards are not evidence based at all, but a bunch of ideological bullshit actively suppressing actual data

Short enough for you?

>>42257816
I'm a Catholic, so I don't believe Scripture alone constitutes the deposit of the Christian faith. Obviously, the Bible doesn't mention trans really, so I'll rely mostly on Magisterial teaching.

But two important things from Scripture: the Bible clearly equivocates being male with the social role "man" and being female with the social role "woman", and there are different roles that men and women play in the family and in the church.

Second, our body is a Temple of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 6:19), which means we're forbidden from harming ourselves.

From Dignitas Infinita, released by the Vatican Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith,

(57) "Regarding gender theory, whose scientific coherence is the subject of considerable debate among experts, the Church recalls that human life in all its dimensions, both physical and spiritual, is a gift from God. This gift is to be accepted with gratitude and placed at the service of the good. Desiring a personal self-determination, as gender theory prescribes, apart from this fundamental truth that human life is a gift, amounts to a concession to the age-old temptation to make oneself God, entering into competition with the true God of love revealed to us in the Gospel."

(60) "we are called to protect our humanity, and this means, in the first place, accepting it and respecting it as it was created.” It follows that any sex-change intervention, as a rule, risks threatening the unique dignity the person has received from the moment of conception."

So, self-determining your gender is a concession to the temptation to make yourself God and enters you into competition with God (this makes social transition immoral), and HRT/surgery threatens the unique dignity of the human body (making medical transition immoral).

>>42258075
>ADF author
lol lmao

>>42258261
>Catholicism
so you're not just a christcuck, but the a christcuck of the most cucked kind

>>42258258

could you point out the part of your sources that tell me i should detransition even though i'm happily transitioned? or are you just going to bible thump at me even though i don't believe in your religion?

>>42255317
>You don't even need to see a psych to get HRT
You do here in practice.
>And SSRIs are way less risky than HRT.
As a victim of SSRIs, false.

>>42258312
You're mixing up me (the Catholic) with the guy arguing with you about WPATH. God loves you btw.

>>42258298
This comment makes me feel more confident in Catholicism

>>42258338
Maybe where you live you need to see a psych, that's not the case in most mid-to-large sized US cities.

And I do have mixed feelings about SSRIs, but HRT is definitely more risky. If you go on SSRIs for 3 years and go off, you're more than likely not going to have any permanent effects. This isn't true for HRT, especially in FtMs.

>>42258388
If you go on SSRIs for 3 years your brain fucking melts. They're awful for you. Some people have lifetime brain zaps. Others have lifetime arrhythmia. I have permanent dysautonomia from them because I was prescribed prozac when what I really needed was estrogen.

Also you really are such a cuck lmao. Need your corrupt religious institution to gold plate their jew on a stick so you can try and pray the dysphoria away because you hate yourself too much.

>>42258261
If you cure someone's congenital blindness you aren't respecting the gift of a blind life GOD ordained for them

If you cure a child's lymphoma you aren't respecting the painful cancer death GOD ordained for them

If you cure your gender dysphoria by transitioning you aren't respecting the sex GOD ordained for you

The catholic church is run by clueless boomers who do not understand the trans experience and apply hasty and poorly thought out philosophical arguments against it because it makes them feel upset because they are bigoted and clueless boomers

You are a victim of brain damage who suffered a massive personality change and then detransitioned and became a religious zealot. Sis wake the fuck up

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>>42258468

She's too far gone. They get psyopped into believing that a reply like this is just God testing her faith. The church puts the rope around her neck and coaxes her into walking off the platform, many such cases.

>>42257458
Didn't you get the memo?
If an individual is claiming to hear voices, we cut off their ears to cure them.

>>42258246
Really. A lot of reviews I've seen tend to say "results are inconclusive, more (and more robust) studies are needed, many studies have issues" like

>The use of relatively short 1-2 year follow-up periods in gender care research risks missing people who detransition, which typically occurs several years after medical or surgical interventions. Studies show the interval between transitioning and detransitioning varies from months to decades,14 15 20 24 so accurate estimates of treatment discontinuation or detransition require a follow-up of at least 5-10 years after interventions. Given that many recent research studies have follow-up times of less than five years, this also disproportionately favours knowledge creation about trans people who are in the early stages of transitioning

>Finally, it is crucial to avoid drawing definite conclusions about gender care outcomes based solely on the subpopulation of patients who remain attached to their clinics and who respond to follow-up. Those who disconnect from care or who refuse to participate in gender care follow-up studies, over 30% in some studies,20 are poorly understood because they have not been adequately researched.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10265220/#:~:text=Finally%2C%20it%20is%20crucial%20to,part%2C%20because%20of%20feeling%20shame.&text=Non%2Djudgmental%20professionals%2C%20in%20whom,realistic%20picture%20of%20detransition%20outcomes.

It's just so offputting to find at every turn that practically all of the pro-trans arguments, presented as thoroughly researched and objectively backed by solid science, all the experts agree, 100% facts, turn out to be either
>eh different studies show different things, some data is very old and unreliable today, we just don't know, need more and better data, there could be underestimated risks
or
>there's no proof of that and some newer studies actually point the opposite

literally NONE of the claims are as solid as they're presented ffs

>>42258427
0_0 damn bro chill what did I ever do to you. I'm not some radical traditionalist who wants to stone gays and put troons in camps.

I just don't think kids can consent to HRT and have this crazy idea that you should have to be diagnosed with GD by a psychiatrist before being treated for it. Also we probably shouldn't put TW who are sex offenders in women's prisons. The rest I'm happy to leave up to the medical establishment to figure out

>>42258468
Your analogy here fails. The eye is designed to see, so if you cure someone's blindness you're actually helping them function better. If you cure a child from lymphoma, you're saving a life and helping them function better.

However if you transition and take HRT you're (a) destroying your reproductive system, harming your body and (b) rejecting the gift of your sexed body. Cis people also aren't allowed to destroy their reproductive system btw, it's gravely immoral for a man to get a vasectomy or a woman to get an elective hysterectomy.

>The catholic church is run by clueless boomers who do not understand the trans experience
It's probably true that the RCC is run by boomers who don't understand trans people well, but their philosophical arguments against transition are sound and based in a consistent 2000 year tradition of moral theology. To say they oppose trans because they're "bigoted" or "clueless" is dishonest.

>>42258509
This isn't testing my faith at all, lol. You don't even need to be religious to understand that women can't have dicks. This is something every human for the last 10,000 years until the mid 20th century understood, from a Chinese peasant to a hunter-gatherer in Africa to an Englishman in 1800. It's really not that complicated.

>>42257136
>you only exist as adults

>>42258583
There was an Aus study that tracked every single patient at a state clinic and tracked their status over a period of 2-8 years (all patients who began from 2014 to 2020 and the review was conducted in 2022). 500+ patients, with all but like, 10 or so whose status at time of review was unknown.

Of the 200+ that received any medical transition care whatsoever, literally 2 detransitioned. That's it.

>>42258592
>Also we probably shouldn't put TW who are sex offenders in women's prisons.
We are going to have to draw a line here.
If we don't allow trans women sex offenders into prison, what is the point in transitioning?

>>42258618
Y'all morons realize that prostitution is a sex crime, right? People who did nothing wrong would be chucked into rape factories if this decision is made unilaterally.

That's before we even get to shit like Michigan HB 4938 which makes being a tranny in public (or even online!) a crime.

>>42258592
For argument's same, if you cure someone's gender dysphoria with transition, you are also saving a life and helping them function better.
Their sexed body is not a gift to them. It is a curse that causes suffering.
Their reproductive system is the same.
You are intellectually dishonestly ignoring this because you are drinking the koolaid
>le 2000 year old tradition
Of men justifying agsinst things that make them upset through shoddy philosophical arguments and oppressing the weak, yes. Men do not like the idea of themselves being women or castrated so they project that with shoddy "philosophy" that does not stand up to scrutiny. These same men then violently suppressed anyone who dared point that out for thousands of years until thank fucking god they figured out how retarded letting religion run your life is, starting with the separation of church from state

>>42258273
>nooooo the WPATH aren't intentionally lying fucks who know there's no data to back up youth gender medical care
>nooo the court documents aren't real
>nooo I refuse to accept facts that don't support my ideology

https://archive.ph/wJCI7
here's a The Economist article about the same thing

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>>42258618

>american chuds trying to convince people that the possibility of 250 trans sex offenders being housed with women (they already aren't) is a legitimate issue that justifies submitting 1,000+ bills focused on enforcing gender laws
>meanwhile inflation goes up while technocrat taxes are go down and international alliances are falling apart
>but at least we stopped Samantha from playing in her little league baseball team

>>42255099
you can get both Zoloft and Adderall prescribed without seeing a psychiatrist you fucking retard
t.prescribed both by a family doctor as a teen

>>42258669
>Cass cuckery

>>42258559
Fucking hell man

>>42258659
So if they made a pill that made so called “gender” “dysphoria” disappear would you take it?

>>42258711
No because I already got rid of my gender dysphoria by transitioning

If I was pre or early transition I would have

>>42258655
>Y'all morons realize that prostitution is a sex crime, right?
It's not enforced

>That's before we even get to shit like Michigan HB 4938 which makes being a tranny in public (or even online!) a crime.
It never became law and died not even leaving committee

>>42258711

YES HOLY FUCK YES

if i could've been happily cis YES

>>42258711
before I committed to trooning? sure

Afterwards? Hell no. It'd be weird now.

>>42258711
If they made a pill that got rid of androgen insensitivity then I'd have been all over it

>>42258711
depends on what exactly it does
if it just makes me feel fine with my body i'd take it and keep transitioning, because i also like being female
if it makes me comfortable as a man and uncomfortable as a woman, i wouldn't take it.

>>42258772
>because i also like being female
agp

>>42258809
oof ouch, you really got me

>>42258592
>2000 years of consistent morals
>was morally good to keep slaves and genocide pagans
its impossible for your ilk to not lie

>>42258817
>oof
agp

>>42258829
no anon obviously it wasn't moral to keep slaves, but there are more and less moral ways to keep slaves and the rules for keeping slaves in the bible are there to guide humans on how to sin in the least bad way
it's like how homosexuality and crossdressing are always going to be a thing, but there are acceptable ways for a homosexual to be. you know, by not acting on it.

>>42258866
>but there are acceptable ways for a homosexual to be. you know, by not acting on it.
What? so gays should just have platonic relationship without sex? Just kissing and hugging?

>>42258880
no kissing either, gays can have homosexual desires they just can't act on them, just like you can keep people as slaves but beating them too hard is a sin :)

>>42258866
>weve been consistently genociding pagans and enslaving people in a way that pleases our deity the most
wew

>>42258897
>no kissing either, gays can have homosexual desires they just can't act on them, just like you can keep people as slaves but beating them too hard is a sin :)
There is no prohibition on kissing, just the sex. Look up David and Jonathan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_and_Jonathan#Homoeroticism

>>42258920
that's not the same sort of kissing

>>42258920
Nothing that enters the human body can make it impure.

What if I hopped in bed with you detroon catholic anon and we just kissed lol kissed and cuddled and held hands and stared into each others eyes uwu just two homosexual males (detroon+troon) and like we totally won't have sex I promise, no frotting because jesus wont want us to...

>>42258956
if we're both wearing chastity cages...

>>42258934
What does that mean?

>>42258944
>Nothing that enters the human body can make it impure.
Is the vagina not the human body? wtaf.

>>42258688
Well that's insane lol but at least it was a medical doctor who prescribed it

>>42258659
First, I don't think anyone claims that transition totally cures dysphoria. But for sake of argument let's assume it did, so we can compare it to the case of someone with BID who desperately wants a leg removed (assume that removing the leg would truly alleviate their suffering).

I can reframe your statement this way:

if you cure someone's BID with amputation, you are also saving a life and helping them function better. Their leg is not a gift to them. It is a curse that causes suffering.

This would not be acceptable, because you are mutilating the body in order to solve a mental problem. Moreover, you would be conforming the body of the subject to their perception, but humans are a unity of body/mind, meaning true healing involves conforming your perception to your body.

In general in Catholic moral theology, you can't harm the body in order to treat a mental problem, unless the harm to the body is an unintended side effect of the treatment. In the BID case, the harm to the body is the intended effect of the treatment, so it's not licit.

Since GD poses no physical threat to the body, and HRT/surgery causes the body to function worse (damages the reproductive system), you can't justify HRT/surgery in order to solve a mental problem.

The reproductive system is definitely not the same if you get SRS. If you're on HRT, your reproductive system is actively non-functional (unless you're super hondosed or something), and even if you come off HRT your body is still left damaged.

I assure you the philosophical arguments are not at all shoddy -- have you read them? Or are you just making assumptions.

I don't remember the verse in the bible saying you can't undergo gender reassignment surgery.

>>42258988
Damaging the reproductive system is an unintended side effect of transitioning. If we could transition to a healthy reproductive system we would

>>42258829
I should clarify, the system of Catholic moral theology is consistent over 2000 years, but its application is not. The changing of social conditions and scientific advances has led the Church to develop its doctrine. E.g. before the 1800s people thought sperm were literally little men, so they thought if you jerked off you were killing people. When they learned that sperm aren't actually human organisms, the moral gravity of masturbation was lowered- so the principle remained the same, but its application changed due to new information.

Also, the Church has never been a perfect institution by any means. The RCC has made lots of mistakes and supported things that were wrong, but the doctrine, dogmas, sacraments, and ecclesial structures all remained intact. The Church is a divinely ordained institution, but it is run by sinful men, so while the Church can never err on dogmatic or definitive teachings on faith and morals, it can absolutely err in even authoritative teachings at certain times and definitely in the realm of politics.

>>42258956
0_0 I don't think God would be pleased

>>42258988
>and even if you come off HRT your body is still left damaged.
Your fertility is mostly restored, wtf you on about?

>>42259026
>0_0 I don't think God would be pleased
he'll forgive you though

>>42259007
There's something in there about people who become eunuchs being okay.
That's basically what SRS did to me, right? No more balls. HRT and T-blockers di that chemically before the surgery too.
Not my fault I can still orgasm, and very easily at that.
>>42259017
Goodness no. I love looking female but not actually being biologically female. Menstruation and pregnancy risk would suck ass.

>>42259026
>0_0 I don't think God would be pleased
God is love, that's all that matters. You really think God doesn't love two consenting homosexual adults?

>>42259026
Modern humans provide better guidance better than your enslaving genocidal 2000 year old desert deity

>>42259037
>Goodness no. I love looking female but not actually being biologically female. Menstruation and pregnancy risk would suck ass.
What I'm saying is you wanting to transition isn't intrinsically wanting to damage your reproductive system. You simply want to be female. Your desire to have a nonfunctioning reproductive system is separate from that

>>42259017
I can explain why this argument doesn't work.

Take the action: anon takes estrogen to relieve gender dysphoria. This has good effects (relief of GD) and bad effects (damage to reproductive system) that are inseparable. In cases like this, we can sometimes apply the principle of double effect:

If an action has foreseeable harmful effects that are practically inseparable from the good effect, it is justifiable if the following are true:

(1) the moral object of the act is itself good, or at least morally neutral;

(2) the agent intends the good effect and does not intend the bad effect, either as a means to the good or as an end in itself;

(3) the good effect outweighs the bad effect in circumstances sufficiently grave to justify causing the bad effect and the agent exercises due diligence to minimize the harm.

The moral object of an action is the proximate end (immediate goal) of a deliberate decision which determines the act of willing. In this case, the moral object of taking E to treat GD is the intentional modification of your sexed body.

Since this moral object is intrinsically immoral, it already fails condition (1). But even if we grant that the object isn't immoral, it also fails condition (2), because even if we intend to treat the GD but don't intend to damage the reproductive system, the damage to the reproductive system is the means by which you're treating the GD. Potentially, it could fulfill condition (3). But it's irrelevant.

>>42259032
Nah my body's still fucked up

>>42259044
God is love and God is truth, so truth=love. God prescribed the death penalty for sodomy in the Old Testament, and God doesn't contradict himself. Something doesn't go from being death penalty offense 2000 years ago to morally okay now.

>>42259138
> God prescribed the death penalty for sodomy in the Old Testament,
thats the OT. christians don’t abide by it

>>42259138
>it's immoral because it is ok
nice logic there

>>42259138
>this moral object is intrinsically immoral
It's not
>because even if we intend to treat the GD but don't intend to damage the reproductive system, the damage to the reproductive system is the means by which you're treating the GD.
No, attempting to bring the body closer to the opposite sex through hormones and surgery is the means. Damage to reproduction are unintended side effects, as any trans woman who wishes to be pregnant can tell you

>>42259138
>having bodily autonomy is intrinsically immoral
I genuinely can't fathom being this much of a slave, Abrahamism is a mistake

>>42259138
>Nah my body's still fucked up
because you got off HRT. If you want reproduction, you could freeze your sperm.

>>42254797
FOUR! AH-AH-AH-AH

>>42254296
>People
>Overseas
Pick one (1).

>>42260086
That's as many as zero men!

>>42259165
The moral law of the Old Testament still applies, the ceremonial and civil laws were fulfilled in Christ. It's a good thing we have a Church to interpret Scripture for us.

>>42259203
>>42259212
the moral object is immoral (I may have used intrinsically incorrectly), this is in Dignitas Infinita, I'll link it below the Vatican can explain better than I can. (Also, this is authoritative in the Catholic moral framework)

>>42258261

No, with SRS the damage to the reproductive system is the means by which you alleviate the gender dysphoria. You intend to alleviate the gender dysphoria, and the surgery is an unfortunate side effect, but the surgery is the thing that alleviates the gender dysphoria. The good effect is achieved by means of the bad effect (the surgery), so it fails condition (2).

Listen, the thing about wishing to be pregnant is that it's a fantasy. I've thought about this a lot, even when I was still trans-identifying, I said I would rather not be born a cis woman because I felt like I wouldn't be me if I was born female. But the fantasy was still powerful. At the end of the day though, it's not reality. Being a feminized male isn't worth it.

>>42259322
No, I have no desire to go back on estrogen. Believe me or not

>>42258866
>but there are more and less moral ways to keep slaves

>>42259251
No, you're looking at our relationship with God the wrong way. If you posit that God actually exists, the all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving, morally perfect Creator of the universe, there's no way for this dynamic to not appear a bit slave-like. It's literally impossible for God to alter the power imbalance, even if he wanted to.

CCC 1849 "Sin is an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience; it is failure in genuine love for God and neighbor caused by a perverse attachment to certain goods. It wounds the nature of man and injures human solidarity. It has been defined as 'an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law.'"

God's eternal law is just a reflection of his morally perfect nature, and it is revealed in Christ. We sin because out of love God has given us free will and we have concupiscence, the tendency to be drawn to sin.

Once you learn what sin is and what is and isn't sin and analyze the world, your life, other people's lives through that lens you start to see a pattern where sin begets sin, even stuff that may seem unrelated on the surface.

Again, God doesn't actively will sin, it's just a consequence of us being imperfect beings stacked up against God's perfect law, which he must have by definition since he's perfectly just.

>>42254999
>I don't think affirming the gender dysphoric person and feeding into their obsession/delusional beliefs about their gender/sex is helpful, much less giving them HRT or sending them off for surgery.
and that's why you're not a qualified professional in any related field

>>42261432
Your holy book is full of holes and Jesus doesn't fulfill all of the Messianic prophecies.

Your religious institutions are a sham.

Your god does not exist in the form you believe it does.

>>42261421
Yes, there are actually more and less moral ways to keep slaves. Most large-scale civilized societies in the ancient world had slavery. Some slaves were tutors or court officials and lived good lives in the hierarchies that existed during their time, others were treated very harshly. It's also worth noting that slavery in ancient Rome was not as brutal or as systematized as slavery in the Americas, and in ancient Judea they were required to free all Jewish slaves after a certain period of time. (This meant that slaves who were captured by the Hebrews or who lived in Judea could convert to Judaism and then be freed)

I'd rather be the enslaved tutor in ancient Rome than the enslaved plantation worker brought to the Caribbean in the 1600s, personally.

>>42261449
neither have I claimed to be ... we're on 4chan

>>42261451
You've fallen for some of the Jewish apologist propaganda I see?

>>42261526
>Jewish apologist propaganda
No I figured this out while I spent 10 years in a christcuck school.

>>42261535
If you're referring to the messianic prophecies of peace on Earth and such? It's a good thing Jesus is alive to bring those about in his lifetime

>>42261526
>there are actually more and less moral ways to keep slaves

>>42261549
Read your holy book, retard

>>42258669
>no data is when theres data but i dont like it

>tranny bad because my kike cult said so
this entire thread

>>42259138
>""damage"" to reproductive system is evil and bad
Can you not push your breeding cult on other people? We understand your ideology is so retarded humans have to be groomed into it since birth, but don't project that onto others

>>42261786
Yes, because having children is so terrible. 30% of all Christians are converts btw

>>42261761
blame it on muh jews

>>42261897
Other estimates put the figure at 10% and most converts are impoverished, uneducated morons susceptible to any kind of cult grifting.

>>42261897

I'm fine with you wanting kids. I'm not fine with you wanting me to have kids. Have some respect for your neighbor.

>>42261786
>Can you not push your breeding cult on other people?
Not breeding or pushing not breeding is actually suicidal and why we are in the mess we are in.

people like the unfortunate individual in this thread are why so many trannies have such a knee-jerk reaction against religion, it's sad
God loves you so he doesn't want you forced off your meds trannies

>>42262631
its really sad and yes does cause people to get so triggered by religion. because sure some all loving god won’t condemn two consenting adults for who they love or if a person is born in the wrong body.

>>42262631

i was raised Catholic and forced into repping the. abused by a Catholic therapist so i have very little patience for Christian love. Keep it to yourself please and thank you.

>>42261928
>>42262631
Truth hurts

>>42262669
condemnation of an act is not condemnation of a person, and nobody is born in the wrong body. You were destined from the beginning of time to be born your natal sex, if you were the other sex you wouldn't be the same person.

>>42262749
>Truth hurts
so do emotionally manipulative lies

>>42262749
>nobody is born in the wrong body. You were destined from the beginning of time to be born your natal sex
there isn't even a point being made here, it's just unfalsifiable predestination bs
by this logic people born without hands aren't in the "wrong" body either since they were destined to be born without hands due to genetics they were predestined to have because their parents were predestined to have sex with each other
Predestination and Free Will are inherently contradictory concepts

>>42255317
>You don't even need to see a psych to get HRT
You're American aren't you? We need to see a psych is almost all other countries.

>>42262749
Are people born without a limb "not in the wrong body'? Are people wrong for wanting parts of their body changed if it's makes them happier?

>>42263026
By their logic someone disabled "isn't in the wrong body"

Someone fat or balding is "perfectly fine like that :))"

>>42254927

This just shows how little you understand the law. Doctors who are professionally licensed are ordinarily protected, medical negligence is regulated by administrative bodies and these seek to set rules for how you can be sued. So the anti trans law are at root an attack on the confidentiality between patients and doctors. Oh and the reason for this is inherently because doctors follow the best available science for suggesting treatments, not you. And no, being a detransitioner does not make your opinions worth more than other trannies. I detransitioned myself buy it just made me eventually be a retransitioning tranny who was even more retarded.

>>42262749
Im not smart enough to tell you exactly why but you are wrong. Transitioning isnt mutilative and is reconstructive, and trying to repress because of some shoddy philosophy and suffering immensely for it cannot be a good thing

>>42254999
>Fuck off, I'm literally a detroon
Ah, the crusader guy is back.
go worship the jew on a stick and leave us alone.
Maybe I should my ex-repressor thread to piss you off.

>>42258388
>If you go on SSRIs for 3 years and go off, you're more than likely not going to have any permanent effects
This is straight up a lie.

Detransitioning requires you to defend slavery. The Lord guided this fool from spending his time on make up to the righteous act of defending slavery online

>>42255099
Anon deppression and ADHD are both diagnosed through personal interviews with patients and doctors observations just like Gender Dysphoria.

Youre just angry because you are arguing in bad faith or are legitimately uneducated possibly both.

>>42254296
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHH. You have what a culture of death really looks like.

If puberty works well enough for you to be able to succeed as your birth sex, then you shouldn't be allowed to transition.

>>42258988
>This would not be acceptable, because you are mutilating the body in order to solve a mental problem.
You're so close, it's actually because a tranny doesn't get benefits for being a tranny

>>42265718
Also a tranny is more elligible for workcuckery than an amputee

>>42262541
>actually sucidal
Do you suffer from mental retardation?

>>42265458
I don't trust you or anyone to make that decision for others.
There's no way you can make that decision objectively.

>>42258988
amputation of a leg hinders or otherwise inhibits function. they can't walk withouth the assistance of a prosthetic.
srs enables function. that's the difference. srs allows them to function sexually in their role. it's a designated hole to take dick.

>>42254281
rightoids are anti-human

>>42263026
No, the point I'm making is that you wouldn't be who you are if you weren't born male.

And correct, someone born without hands isn't in the 'wrong' body.

The conflict between God's knowledge of human actions and free will is philosophically difficult to reconcile (technically, predestination is a different thing), but I like to think about it in a Molinist way. God can't predict what a free agent will do in a vacuum, but since he knows all the circumstances and all of our thoughts he can predict what we'll do. But i'm a layman so

>>42263720
Yes, other countries are more reasonable than USA on trans healthcare

>>42263811
Yes, someone born without a limb isn't in 'the wrong body'. They're just in their body. If they want a prosthetic that sounds like it would improve function. People can absolutely change parts of their body if it makes them happier, the issue is when they harm themselves.

HRT/surgery to people without GD is just harm, it's only conceived of as helpful by someone with GD because the harmful effects are perceived as positive due to the mental illness.

>>42263998
You're saying the majority of people will have permanent effects if they get off SSRIs after 3 years? Please enlighten me

>>42264225
You don't need a GD diagnosis to get HRT in the US .... this is literally all I'm advocating for

>>42265881
No, SRS destroys the function of your reproductive system. You can't have kids

>>42268711
>it's only conceived of as helpful by someone with GD
Wrong. I do not have GD and I do not perceive transition as harmful. The loss of undesired and unused fertility isn't a "harm" unless you're digging into your Platonic appeal to nature fallacies. The result of which cause actual lived harm to trans people when applied.

Transitioning does not cause disability like amputating limbs does so that's an erroneous comparison to make, and biid is a separate issue to litigate. Your position is arguing in a vacuum rather than to the reality of the situation. Common Platonism L

>>42268930
What I meant by that is that for men without GD the idea of their dick shrinking, getting ED, growing breasts, etc is horrifying. Alan Turing offed himself over it.

It's only when you have GD or I guess if ur a turbo AGP that you'd actually like those changes.

And it's not an appeal to nature, it's an appeal to natural law, which I don't think you believe in. I would agree that if there were no God / no design behind our bodies and minds that sterilizing someone wouldn't be intrinsically harmful.

If you accept that sterilizing someone is harmful though, the analogy with BID still functions perfectly. In both cases it's 'do physical harm to this person to relieve mental suffering'. Even if the degree of harm is different, in principle it's the same situation.

>>42269140
>when you have GD or I guess if ur a turbo AGP
same thing

>>42269140
The degree of harm is crucial when weighing morality. If your war causes a kid to get a sprained ankle while saving your people it's a different situation than if your war causes every child in your country to die. They are different situations with a different litigation.

Natural law is indeed an erroneous philosophy when it causes logical conclusions like the one you're positing here, with the morality of actions divorced from their material consequences.

>>42255479
>Why do you want to look younger, are you a pedophile?
>Why do you want to allow people to look younger, are you a pedophile?
>Why do you want to allow people to do something that incidentally makes people look younger sometimes (but not always), are you a pedophile?
Why don't you kill yourself, disingenuous fuckwad?

>>42269166
There are AGPs that don't meet clinical criterion for GD.

>>42269196
I'm not a consequentialist ... an action producing harm is an indication it may be immoral, but there are immoral acts that don't produce harm and moral ones that do.

Consequentialism sounds great until you start trying to consider edge cases. If I cheat on my wife and nobody ever finds out, have I done anything wrong? Why is voyeurism wrong if nobody finds out?

Consequentialism also leads you to conclude that the ends justify the means. You're committed to the position that torturing a child is justified if it will save millions of people.

Catholic moral theology actually does consider consequences, it's just not the primary factor that determines the morality of an action. I.e., torturing a child for any reason is intrinsically wrong, so it's not moral to do even if it saves millions.