how do you cope with knowing you'll never be able to shed your male socialisation? hearing from women, i know I'll never be able to catch up, hell most autistic cis women eventually fall too far behind, an autistic man like myself stands no chance. and i realise, that I'm not willing to let go of my make friendships, and I'm too scared to make female ones, scared of how you need to be emotionally vulnerable, I've never been able to be.i feel so awful, knowing I'll never be able to fit in with the group i so desperately seek to join. i feel so fucking weird, I'm desperate to be able to fit in with cis women, because it'll forever clock me, other me as a "transwoman" instead of just, a woman, yet I'm unwilling to let my moid friends go, my moid hobbies go, my moid behaviours go. it feels like a vice, i know it's hurting me long term but it's helping me cope now.it disgusts me, desu, that some day, i will try to convince people i am a woman, while behaving so uncannily unlike one. it's truly sickening. and every time i see terfs talk about socialisation it's what hits me the most more than anything, more than any talk about gamete size or chromosomes. I was molded through my childhood, through my own experiences to be a man, and that is tough to erase.
You can't internalize TERF talking points dear. They parrot concepts of socialization because it fucks with you and provides the rationale behind their cynical, homophobic, misogynistic conceptualization of womanhood. "Male socialization" is a more digestible form of bigotry for the plebians that achieves the same effect as "gender is what's in your pants" or "chromosomes", the belief that your birth sex imparts a permanent taint on your soul, or more succinctly, bioessentialism.Their ideology is a poisonous slurry of thought terminating cliches. Don't validate any of the shit they spew by entertaining it in your head, except to acknowledge it for the semantic stop sign it us.
>>42271053By recognizing that it's not your fault. They did it to you on purpose, you didn't choose it. They thought they were doing the right thing by making a weird little boy toughen up and fit in, instead they were torturing a neurodiverse little girl who did the only thing she could by retreating into hobbies as a form of escape. And once you're aware of what happened to you, why it happened, why it shouldn't have happened, and why it's not your fault, you can start to heal those wounds. That's not a sudden thing, wounds take time and care to heal, and emotional wounds take even more time and care to heal. So you can start by being kind to yourself. Do things that fulfill you as a woman and make you feel valid in your own life. Whether that's trying on outfits or makeup or whatever. For me it was painting my nails, by painting my nails something men in my culture would never ever do, I started to feel more femme and like myself more. You don't have to give up your old male hobbies, I didn't and it's been a huge advantage in the dating market. Just get new girl hobbies, just whatever makes YOU feel good as a woman.
>>42271255>"Male socialization" is a more digestible form of bigotry for the plebiansAre you even trans? Male socialization is the intentional infliction of trauma. As trans women, and particularly for the neurodiverse, we HAVE to deal with that.
>>42271280Yeah I read bell hooks too. I wasn't male socialized. I was socialized as a trans woman.
>>42271324I've never heard of Bell Hooks and if your parents socialized you to be a trans woman then they probably belong in jail. Socialization is how you are raised. It starts young, before the brain is even remotely processing gender. 2 year old girls can't run around outside without a shirt on. 2 year old boys get taught to stop crying.
>>42271347>2 year old girls can't run around outside without a shirt on. 2 year old boys get taught to stop crying.Maybe in your family.
>>42271347effeminate young boys who prefer to spend time with girls get abused, raped and even sex trafficked at inordinately high rates. regardless if male socialization makes somebody a male, then it doesn't explain why trans women want to be female.>I've never heard of bell hooksshe's decent, you should read her. her name is spelled all lowercase.
>>42271399Yeah okay, good luck with your therapy weirdo. In the meantime maybe don't minimize other people's trauma. >>42271406>then it doesn't explain why trans women want to be femaleTrans women want to be female because their neurological female. But trans women get asigned male at birth, and long before they're old enough to actually figure out what "girl" and "boy" means, society including every authority figure a child will ever meet was teaching us how to be boys. And boy are taught violence. Which means we get to exist in a world where are either good at violence or the victims of it, and usually a good degree of both. We are taught that women's emotions are our responsibility, while our emotions are forbidden from being expressed. Deviation from this is punishment, and sometimes the punishment comes even when you're following the rules. We are taught to be constantly on guard. We are under constant scrutiny to conform to male standards, even though we are literally not wired for it, and at the same time we're getting blamed for it. Because the one thing every feminist does and NEVER gets pulled up on is blaming 17 year old boys for the actions of their 70 year old fathers. It is TRAUMA from the age of 2 until you figure out how to retreat from society entirely. And the trauma doesn't stop with transition. I still have to make sure I am not making any women "feel threatened" or giving anyone "the ick". Because there are serious and permanent consequences for that.
>>42271347Socialization prior to adolescence is childhood, socialization during adolescence corresponds to manhood/womanhood. I don't think the fact that four year old me got pirate makeup instead of princess makeup changes the fact that my teenaged years were spent agonizing over the disassociation and alienation I felt from my birth sex that shaped me into the woman I am today. If you want to argue otherwise I'll follow my own advice: don't entertain the opinions of TERFs.
>>42271524Well it certainly didn't help your intelligence either. Socialization doesn't make you trans. It's make you fucked up if you are trans. And you pretending that's not a problem we're all facing make you actually worse that a TERF. You can get rid of TERFs by closing twitter, but you're here fucking with a neurodiverse person because their experience doesn't precisely match yours. Fuck you, fucking die, you fucking cunt.
>>42271053its too late nonagive upthast all you have leftdont bother arguing evenif you think like this and have tried female socialization with real owmen(trans or cis) its over
>>42271550Honestly you shouldn't be on the board if this shit of all things effects you so much.
>>42271605Honestly you shouldn't be on this board if you're just here to troll. This is literally the only safe space baby trans have to come to be supported with the protection of anonymity. We NEED this space to discuss our real issues, because God knows if we go on reddit someone like you is going to screencap everything we say and spread it across the internet. Are you Jewish? You seem Jewish.
this thread got me anxious for a moment. then I remembered I never had much if any male socialization at all and always found girls to be much, much more interesting people, with likes and dislikes and interests that weren't just "kick ball, play shooter vidya"
>>42271619I think it's time to close the browser hon
>>42271644>I just came into this thread to say I don't have this specific problemOkay. >>42271656>I am JewishYou'd think the fact that I can pick you purely by what you type on an anonymous imageboard would teach you something about your behaviour. But in 2000 years you've never learned.
>>42271665Schizophrenia
>>42271667I'm not schizophrenic. You make that up because you want to hurt or gaslight me. I don't need to make anything up. You are a Jew. You don't even realize the rest of civilization does not behave like this.
>>42271491You're ignoring the basic premise which was certainly true for me and true for many others, if not also yourself. That "trauma" is not distributed evenly as a necessary aspect of male socialisation, in fact it is the case that people who are rewarded for traumatizing, being violent towards others and "winning" in some capacity or another don't become traumatized themselves. >Either good at violence or victims of itDo you think cis girls aren't victims of violence too? The media is replete with narratives of men defeating other men, men raping and objectifying women, and even if extremes are made out as bad examples there's a lot of "grey area" rape that is rewarded and shown in a positive light. While it is true that media and real life are different, plenty of this happens in both.It's true that there are non-dysphoric men who tend to be on the receiving end of violence as well, and as a result may grow up to be more soft spoken or meticulous. However these men often compensate for it in different ways, and have a history of compensation that becomes part of their identity as they grow up into adults. This necessarily shapes the way they are treated and their socialization. Trans women largely don't do this, in fact I will argue that trans women experience prejudice growing up precisely because they have no such internal & intentional compensation. This is significantly more traumatic than boys who enjoyably do so voluntarily (even the so-called incels do this, because they gratuitously self identify and pursue this label), and especially moreso than boys who were rewarded for their very existence in the first place. I know I'm starting to sound like a femcel but idc.>It doesn't stop being traumatic after we transitionabsolutely. What you are describing at this point is trans misogyny and it is safe to say something trans women exclusively experience. After all it uniquely occurs after your transition begins.
>>42271832You are just an insensitive idiot. That's what your post is expressing. And you're CLEARLY not trans. You have a theory of trans, but no actual experience of it. So I reiterate, fuck off and die. You clearly are OP, that's why OP hasn't responded, so I'm guess that was Ai generated based on the MILLIONS of accounts of trans women struggling with their male socialization. Something you can't relate to except in a purely abstract sense, because you're not trans. Even the fact that you keep trying to turn this into a "debate" that you need to win, instead of an opportunity to support a sister identifies you without doubt as "cis male". And by process of deduction we have determined your true cause here, you're just trying to stir up shit between trans and TERF, and I really need you to tell your entire fucking tribe thisWE ARE NOT FUCKING INTERESTEDWe hate Israel because you're a genocidal and expansionist regime. It does not matter how many fights you stir up, how many people you "explain" transphobia to, you're still the bad guys. And you always will be because you're incapable of change. Those of you who are capable of change are Christian now. Saged. Thridden. Fuck you you fucking demon.
>>42271053Female socialization is learned helplessness. You're better off without it.
>>42271053tfw no socialization due to always being alone
>>42271927how do i get wellness check for this nona?
>>42271985high 5 twin (from an infinite distance)
>>42271963>t. Turbo Male Socialized (Champion Edition)
>>42271053if you couldnt make friends with girls at anypoint in your life then ur just a trender. i mean doesnt it speak on your character that you find male friendships easier? just give up cus im also guessing you dont pass
>>42271406>her name is spelled all lowercaseThis is not a thing. Orthography is not semantically or phonetically differentiating, it's a convention of writing and not subject to individuation in any way. Her name is Bell Hooks.
>>42272171I'm ftm, so that's a good thing for me.
>>42272208her name is Gloria Jean Watkins. bell hooks is her pen name and you are an insufferable pedant
>>42271491>Trans women want to be female because their neurological female.There is absolutely no evidence of this in any way, shape or form, also for the love of God learn to tell their/they're apart, you're an adult and shouldn't struggle with third-grade English.
>>42271927I'm literally trans lmao, and I only have two replies in this thread before this one. I think you're getting me confused with somebody else. I'm not sure how to prove my transness but here is my hand with a timestamp in case that is something you find convincing. You also seem to think I am part of the Jewish internet defense league or whatever it's called. I'm not, I hate Israel, but I'm sorry that something about my post seemed to convince you otherwise. Sincerely. Israel is a deeply fucked up state that violent towards thousands of people every day and it's painful to imagine that I might remind someone of or be somehow in line with their savage and dehumanizing behavior.
>>42272460I'm the other anon she was "arguing" with (not sure exactly what happened) and I really hope for her sake she actually did hide the thread and doesn't see anything else here. I, too, am not Jewish, and I'm adamantly anti-Zionist, for the record, since somehow that became relevant to my opinions about gendered socialization
>>42272518idk what to tell either of you because I did not say anything remotely connected to Israel in my post
>>42272188>>42272460nta but if u are really trans why didnt u reply to me comment?
>>42272630I'm not OP. In fact I'm literally disagreeing with OP because I don't think ANY mtf counts as an autistic man. For the reasons stated. I think mtfs experience trans misogyny before we trans and that makes us different from having "male socialization". Even though I do think trans women need to learn some things in order to pass as female, if that's what is desired.
>>42272689i mean if you cant socialize with any girls/women your age ever then that ipmlys you cant relate with them and if you cant relate to other women then how are you a woman exactly?
>>42272706I socialized with women from a young age but nobody answered your question because it was obviously retarded and didn't deserve a response. I mean look at yourself. Even your ability to form words has broken down at this point.
>>42272716> nobody answered your question because it was obviously retarded explain? >Even your ability to form words has broken down at this point.false, you cant just openly lie
>>42272741It's very accusatory in tone in a bait-y kind of way, I don't know how to specifically dissect it nor do I really want to because I feel like you will just use the feedback to make more bait. If you sincerely want to help people like OP I would recommend maturing as a person.
>>42272790well you are a liar so i cant really believe what you have to say. it tells me a lot to see you not refute my call out on ur lying.
>>42272803No, you are just retarded, as you should have been able to notice what the mistake you made was. But you are seemingly illiterate as well. You said "ipmlys" when you presumably meant to say "implies". You probably did not notice due to narcissism however.
>>42272822>what the mistake you made waskek dont throw rocks from a glass house
>>42272839>I was merely pretending
>>42272850?? how about you exactly say what you want to say instead of sending me this bullshit
>>42272706"Womanhood" is a concept that you cannot possess but something other people attribute to you (or do not attribute to you) based on their own intuition of womanhood. For example it was taken as a given by most American suffragettes that their fight for women's equality did not include black women, because their intuition of womanhood excluded them categorically, regardless of using the word "woman" to describe them.It makes intuitive sense that a self-identified woman ought to be able to relate to other self-identified women but that intuition is misleading in reality. Identity is arbitrarily assigned and unassigned by cultural hegemons at their leisure. Also, women often barely relate to each other at all. The idea of an unspoken universal bond of sisterhood among women is the wistful nostalgia of the marginalized sex. Another product of patriarchy.
>>42272875>American suffragettes that their fight for women's equality did not include black women, because their intuition of womanhood excluded them categorically, no it was cus they didnt view black ppl as human. if they could theyd get rid of black mens votes too.>"Womanhood" is a concept that you cannot possess but something other people attribute to you you must first be a woman on the inside for people to see the woman on the outside>The idea of an unspoken universal bond of sisterhood among women is the wistful nostalgia of the marginalized sex.theres not like some hidden connection all women have but just the fact women hangout with women and men hangout with men. people prefer it like that for the most part. they want to be friends with people like them
>>42272915You're talking about womanhood in a specific context, I'm talking about "womanhood" at its most abstract/conceptual levelSo yeah, a trans woman who never hung out with women and bonded only with men will have a difficult time fitting in with her female peers, and this will affect their capacity to see her as "just as much a woman" as they are. In that context her womanhood is being arbitrated by her female peers. However this same trans woman, in a different context (i.e., with women of different cultural upbringing, age, material wealth, so on) may not be regarded as lesser. In short as I already said, you cannot possess womanhood, it is assigned to you. "Being a woman on the inside" is just a teleology of trans-ness.
>>42273015What does teleology mean?
>>42273020Describing something by its function or purpose, explaining why something is the way it is.Why is the trans woman a woman -> Because she is a woman on the inside.
>>42273042I don't see how the latter part connects to purpose, the use of word teleology seems unnecessary
>>42271255idk i mean i understand it is on some level misogynistic, i feel awful for even caring at all desu. but i see my behaviour, and i compare it with my two sisters, who behave damn near identically and i just can't help but ig see the differences. idk, maybe it's because i was late onset so like, i was a man before ig in my experience idk. i mean, idk it does to me seem pretty clear that how you were raised will impact your future behaviour, and people are raised in gendered ways, i was raised in a gendered way>>42271257yeah, the fact this was done to me is kinda comforting ig, but I can't help but continue to blame myself, probs cuz i had late onset dysphoria so i feel more guilt for just going along with being a normal cis man until i was like 17 with no problem, so i tend to blame myself anyway.>>42271927nah I'm op, i was sleepy and sad when i wrote this and went to bed right after and had work the morning after I'll read and reply to more after work probs, I'm kinda not used to threads i make not dying overnight lol
>>42271491>And the trauma doesn't stop with transition. I still have to make sure I am not making any women "feel threatened" or giving anyone "the ick". Because there are serious and permanent consequences for that.No offence but that is the bed that you made for yourself. You could have also just been some guy that nobody gives a second glance like that.
>>42274725You have to stop caring what ciswomen think
oh ok i accidentally made a troll thread i think I'm so sorry lmao >>42272188well no i mean i have some cis women friends I'm not like that bad lol, I could never get on well in like hypermasculine groups. but in spite of there being a few women in the group it's obvious from like the group dynamics and shit that they're still very much primarily "male" friendgroups. it does speak on my character, it rly upsets me that I'm like this, and no I don't pass either and probs never will. I'm just trying to do my best to deal with my dysphoria even if I'm not convinced it's real cuz I'm so obviously faketrans, idk. sorry>>42272689yeah, ig this more a me thing/trender thing, cuz i did not experience tranny socialisation growing up, i have rogd, and wasn't "trans" until i was 17. i was socialised as a normal man before then, though i can now look back and regret that idk. i think because of that i have too much to unlearn, and will always be clocked as fake and male because of that, it rly upsets me cuz i mean wtf can i do i mean like it's not like i could have changed how i was as a kid when I wasn't even trans and try as i might i can't change things now either to continue living as a man. I'm just trying to do my best ig idk but i know it'll never be enough cuz I'm faketrans. I'm sorry if i implied my experience on all other trans women cuz it does seem maybe something more so just experienced by frauds like me>>42273015yeah i agree, i consider my womanhood assigned to me cuz i certainly don't feel it on the inside, not least because I'm so faketrans it'd be laughable to pretend i "always felt like a woman on the inside". and I'm upset because yeah I've mostly socialised with men and just will never be able to catch up atp desu. idk i mean the idea of women not seeing me as a woman is utterly terrifying to me. it has me terrified to come out to my sisters, I don't think they'll see me as their sister and I don't blame them obv but that upsets me more than anything
>>42273142I'll put it another way, a teleology is an explanation of something's root cause. It's a way of arriving to (seemingly) logical or intuitive conclusions by identifying a cause as ultimate, or "ultimate enough" to be rhetorically useful.Why does the man have a gunshot wound?1. Because a gun was fired.2. Because he is a soldier.3. Because Germany invaded Poland.4. Because there is a bullet in his chest.These are all teleologies. All are "correct" in their own right, but how satisfactory you find them as rhetorical arguments can obviously vary.In the case of "A trans woman is a woman because she feels she is a woman on the inside," I don't NECESSARILY disagree, but that teleology does not satisfy as a rhetorical argument.
>>42271644>always found girls to be much, much more interesting people, with likes and dislikes and interests that weren't just "kick ball, play shooter vidya"Yeah instead they do, "buy shoes, make tiktok"It's fun to reduce everything to retarded tropes
>>42277801>An explanation of something's root cause That's etiology.I'll show my hand: the word 'teleology' is overused, and misused, on the internet, to such an extent that it is mainly confusing when you hear the word after having already a familiarity with it from philosophy.With that said I get what you're saying, but the examples you gave are only tangentially teleological, especially the last one. You can say it is someone's purpose to get shot as a soldier in a war, and I would help you defend the point because I think war is bad and because getting shot is a necessary outcome. But you would have to defend the position because it is typically understood that wars are meant to be won.
bump
>>42276174You shouldn't get too in your head at that stuff. For all you know the woman sitting next to you on the bus is thinking about her objectum fetish.More relevantly, it's very easy for me to see the scouring of my own past for signs that I was trans / should transition as cope, the reason I transitioned was not because of these things it was because I had accepted being a non passing tranny in addition to the realization I might actually eventually pass if I put in the effort. These come across as superficial reasons but to be honeston I don't think that being trans needs to be some core thing to someone's identity, and you basically have two reasons to transition: to reach a desired aesthetic, which for most trans women means passing, and to become comfortable with your own body. I can't say which is easier but I can say it does no good to make things mentally more difficult by holding yourself up to what are at the end of the day imaginary standards.
>>42279531i suppose yeah, I mean, I'm at the very least at this point not so totally convinced I'm faketrans as to deny myself hrt, but it is still hard to accept I'll never properly fit in with women because of everything that's happened in my life. it feels like a sort of mark on my soul
>>42271255Socialization is basically conditioning via your assigned sex being molded into gender, which you could then "transition" out of but only into "transwoman".How do you destroy conditioning?Trannies depend on sexism to even exist and the experiences of our sexist world.
>>42281065I don't think it's true that will happen. For one that feeling of guilt is common among women who, even if they have it for different reasons, nevertheless find a relatedness in the abstraction. It is in fact one of the media archetypes or tropes that women often relate to. The whole premise of >I can't be like them>I'm too damagedIs something every woman who's been raped has felt at some point. There are many other ways this can happen too, such as being poor or even being rich. And I would query a guess that this is exactly why women are more intent on forming community and companionship with one another. To challenge and overcome that feeling.Of course it might not feel good to you if cis women identify with their perceptions of you as a symbol of their own insecurity, it certainly does annoy me, but at least in terms of finding shared experiences it's not like I who feels like my CSA was transmisogyny have an easier time relating to random women because of it, to the extent that when I feel especially depressed I will misanthropically or self hatingly reject the community that is offered to me often.>>42282267Socialization has at least two effective definitions that most people agree upon and when you separate them from each other you will find there is nothing controversial or invalidating about them. It's not really interesting as a problem. >Being social among males (everyone agrees trans women to some extent do this)>Becoming a male (it is obvious trans women do not do this)
>>42284369i do feel it's a bit different it's not like, damage, it's years and years of learned behaviour to be unlearned. it just seems utterly opposite to what just about every woman has experienced but more distressing ig is that they will be able to recognise it lining up with men. idk again look, i was wrong to generalise this for all troons cuz i feel like it's something that affects me more cuz I'm so faketrans ig
>>42271053learn vocal feminization and stop shouting over women and you'll be fine stop giving up before u start
>>42286113yes i am voice training and i do just tend to stay quieter as a quick fix but i mean idk, i mostly notice it as i get more confident with ppl and less shy like yeah i keep interrupting ppl i am seriously trying to stop that and mostly have stopped thi but i mean it's a bunch of other stuff too. i just end up feeling kinda lost in conversations sometimes ig idk
>>42271491>We are under constant scrutiny to conform to male standards, even though we are literally not wired for it, and at the same time we're getting blamed for it. Interesting point. Makes me realise that it's not about teaching patterns to reproduce, but about measuring brain structures congruent with a role.Failing lads to external rejection and internal incongruence, the same process for any neurodiveristy.
