If I can use his pussy, sure. I don’t mind calling him a guy, and maybe even seeing him as one as long as there’s a vagina. Penises are the real issue, and I’m a top.

>>42457536
Those types of butches are always stone tops desu

>>42457541
Guess not then, which is fine. But if they aren’t (I’m a stone top) then I’d be fully open to it, I don’t mind if they’re masculine in daily life, they just have to be submissive in the bedroom. Or dominant bottoms, I don’t mind being ridden by a confident butch.

>>42457524
Honestly I really want like a r/growyourclit MILF lately. I was like Bros Lite with one of those guys, but we were both tops and he wasn’t into top4top.

>>42457549
Are you a lesbian ?

I really like big clits too >>42457553
so sexy. Experiencing them me disappointed when a girl doesn’t have one. Oral and playing with them while you fuck him/her is amazing.
Obviously it’s just me, but I don’t know why anyone would settle for a penis or even find it remotely attractive when clits exist.

>>42457566
Yes I’m a lesbian. I’m also butch, but I’m into other butches and femmes too. Anything with a pussy, really. Pronouns don’t matter and don’t bother me

OP... i used to dream abt dating a butch, my biggest crushes were feinberg n bechdel. i drew portraits of masc women id see on tv, anything that featured a butch lesbian character id binge and then binge again - i had a fan acct dedicated to a side character from the League of Their Own reboot that never got a second season, read butchfemme poetry book compiles

but like, eventually i had to face facts and admit theres rly no butches going after mtfs

i try and manage with straight guys. its not the same, i feel nothing being treated by them. i just crave masculinity but apparently in only one specific way

>>42457524
Definitely

>>42457680
be honest, are you planning to try and use your penis on them?

>>42457702
no legitimately most of my fantasies were abt stone tops w their clothes on, or not involving sex at all-

im dead serious, my sex drive is non-existent when it comes to anything else. its my special helllll

>>42457711
I see. That’s acceptable then, since most of them would rather die. Maybe you can find an mtf butch who looks like your type of woman and treats you right. I would agree though that cis butches probably only want to perform on vaginas. I’m sorry you had to be trans

>>42457716
i dated an mtf butch & it killed the fantasy.. she hated being referred to w anything too masculine and had a fetish for being feminized - it just wasnt my thing. i realized if this was the best i could get im better off looking elsewhere

i try & cope thru art + writing that touch on the butchfemme experience but ive accepted ill never be able to embrace it fully =w=

>>42457733
Preface, sorry, I know it sucks to realize they might have to be bi, but…

Obviously cis butches go wild for vagina, but there’s a very rare few of bisexual butches (who are still stone tops, pretty much always) that would love to pamper a cute trans woman and wife her up. Don’t give up hope.

>>42457716
>cis butches probably only want to perform on vaginas
I would say there is a considerable well of sublimated penis envy sadism and faggotry within butchness.

>>42457748
There is, yes. I’m only into vaginas myself, and I’m ftm (but realistic, I’ll never pass, so I live as butch) and it’s not sadism, moreso just a sexual inclination toward extreme domination, but the penis envy is all consuming. I love pussy, I hate having one. It’s worthless and doesn’t match my needs at all, whereas a penis is perfect. If I had one everything would be exceptional. I plan to get phalloplasty and focus on sensation over anything else in the future. It’s the best I can do.

>>42457744
youre so sweet n i rly appreciate this like im touched someone cares so much. this part of me is prolly gonna die w me skdjsjdh and ik that this is annoying as hell but like bi butches/femmes dont rly exist. i promise i wont bore u w/ the details but its an oxymoron thats only become a used term in the last like 8 years & most actual butchfemmes hate it

(this also includes me i forfeited my right to call myself femme for whoring myself to men for attention haha)

>>42457767
>post phallo butch on T bf (lesbian)
Peak cinema

>>42457774
Nta but I can tell you have a female soul it's so sad that you have to be born mtf. I'm sorry nonnie.

>>42457775
Such is life as an ftm. I’m eternally grateful for lesbianism and butchness, because even on the off chance I did pass someday, a straight woman probably still wouldn’t want to date me. Lesbians are the only ones who don’t expect me to use my equipment, don’t obsess over my lack of a penis more than I do, and can handle how unbelievably castrated I am physically as long as I offer a little bit of masculinity. I’m 5’4”, so it was over before it began.

>>42457524
that amab rapist stare. hgmi

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>>42457536
>>42457574
>>42457680
>>42457687
>so called lesbians would fuck a whole ass man
the absolute state of pussysexuals and to think there's trannies out there wishing they were lesbians lol

>>42457783
Are you on T ? If not how can you know you won't pass.. But I get what your saying, lots of straight or even bi women are basically cocksexual.

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>>42457783
I'm mtf and tryna be butch and it's so hard because I'm straddling this line of just looking like a normal guy and idk what to do. Do you have any advice? I really want to be butch I don't have much interest at all in being a feminine woman.

>>42457794
What are you even talking about?
I am a tranny

>>42457779
yall are nice as heck i thought id just be clowned on. thank you

>>42457524
i'm masc4femme but i would support bro

>>42457796
Nta but. You can't be butch lol, real but butches the one with that natural attractive masculinity nonna was talking about all want to be men. The essence or a real butch comes from wanting to be men, wanting to have a penis is what makes them the best in the world at eating pussy.

>>42457795
I’ve been on T for 3 years yeah, can’t live without it frankly. Passing just isn’t an option for me. My genetics are cooked beyond reason and any hope of bone growth was gone at 12 years old. I’m thinking of working with a surgeon to design custom implants in the future, but I don’t have nearly enough saved and honestly, a post-surgery face would look uncanny and out of place on my unfixably female body. At least I get to have a sex life and the possibility of a girlfriend. Not like I’d be dishonest either, I don’t care if she’s a lesbian. I’d be up front, and chances are she’d be okay with it since I’m already late transition (assuming she’s into me). In my experience a few have been, and that’s good enough for me.

>>42457807
If you're mtf I don't care what you think on this topic, just do your hecking dress go spinny and leave me be.
I want to be like a man but in a woman way.

>>42457802
grim

>>42457796
It’s definitely a hard path aesthetically. I’ve seen a lot of trans women who were able to continue working out yet change their muscular male build to one that’s visually female but still incredibly strong and muscular, so I imagine it’s a similar story… hrt and ffs enough that you look female no matter what you do. I’m sorry I couldn’t give better advice, it really is just forcing your body to be female regardless of what you choose to do with it, and the answer to that is a long time on the perfect HRT regimen.

>>42457818
Are you sure you don't pass or have no chance of passing even with facial hair ? Or is it you would rather womanmode if you cant be unclockable ? Still I'm sorry being an unluckshit is cruel. I'm perma butch/womanmodding in the untranny valley as well.
>>42457821
I'm a cis butch woman (on T)

>>42457827
Thanks for trying and hearing me out. I'll keep trying my best. I'm naturally really strong and when I pick up this tranny I have a big crush on and she gushes about how strong I am, I feel so happy inside xd. She calls me butch and hugboxes me but ik I don't pass. But I still feel happy when she does it
>>42457838
Okay, fair then. I just can't stand hearing mtfs say this shit, they have no right. If it's a butch woman then it's fair.

bisexuality is ok.

>>42457524
>Questions for lesbians
>a fuck ton of tranny replies
Bruh.

As for me, testosterone is where I draw the line. Even non-passers sound and smell and feel different somehow. I just can't. Early T could be fun though, when the only change is that she's horny as fuck. Maybe. I've never actually dated anyone who was actively transitioning, but I have been approached and, like, no. Also using he/him is a turn off as well.

as a butch i dont think i'll ever be able to understand the rationale of mtfs wanting to be butch
theres a point where if you divorce gender roles from gender, the gender ceases to have any meaning, so then what purpose does changing your gender serve?
why want be woman if want be masculine and do man things. what does being a woman mean to you atp

>>42457874
I want to be physically female and take estrogen to become closer to it. I will hopefully one day be able to afford surgeries to become closer to it too.
I don't really care about pronouns and stuff. It doesn't matter to me if I get called he or bro or whatever.

>>42457838
That’s what I believe, yeah. I could pass as a kid at best, and that feels more feminine than just sucking it up and being butch. Facial hair is just a neckbeard for me. I can’t grow a mustache, and the slight amount that’s on my face just rims my small chin, which makes it look like I’ve got a little bulb chin (I do, but it’s worse when it’s obvious like that.) I’m pretty obviously a tranny even with facial hair, and I’m not interested in being or living queer. I’d like to be as close to normal as possible in a healthy relationship with a woman, so butchmoding is the only reasonable path. Even if I did pass as a man I’d be the very bottom of the barrel because of my genes. I’m content enough with how I am, at least I get to keep trying while still having hope for a future.

>>42457855
Two well meaning mtfs, and three (?) ftms who live their lives as lesbians. Seems like a reasonable bunch of trannies to be replying to the thread desu. It’s /lgbt/, so it’s a given that there’s a lot of trannies here anyhow. Reception has been pretty good imo

>>42457884
why do you want to be physically female? what purpose does that serve for you? what motivation drives it?

>>42457905
I don't know, I just do, sorry. I've been obsessed with it since I was a kid.

>>42457767
>I’m only into vaginas myself
Why? I never understood this obsession with genitalia
>I hate having one. It’s worthless and doesn’t match my needs at all
If you want to fuck then you're still going to be using your genitals to feel good with another person's genitals. It's obvious a trans woman's penis is the perfect fit there.

>>42457874
Transsexuals understand that “gender” as a separate categorization is retarded and only started to exist in the past 15-20 years. For most transsexuals, it’s about the sex characteristics. Objectively, a woman who looks/acts masculine appears differently than a man who looks/acts masculine solely due to sex characteristics, so the woman in this thread wants to have female sex charactistics while being masculine, as a butch would. It’s always been about sex, and getting as close as possible to adopting the phenotype of said sex.

>>42457914
>I dont understand genital dysphoria

>>42457914
>>42457914
It’s not an obsession, it’s just how my brain works. I can’t get it up for anything that isn’t a vagina, and I don’t get mentally excited or visually interested if it’s not a pussy. That’s just how it goes, I didn’t make any particular choices to end up like that, it’s just my sexuality.
>a trans woman’s penis is the perfect fit there
No thanks. There’s nothing arousing about being penetrated for me mentally or physically, and I’m honestly repulsed by the idea of doing it. Just doesn’t work that way for everyone. Additionally, I’m just not into penises even if we just did intercrural. I wouldn’t be aroused or invested in the activity at all. Because I’m incompatible with being penetrated and have a desire to penetrate, my genitals are worthless. I just finger a girl while I jerk off or get off to strapping her mentally, and that’s all that appeals to me until I get phalloplasty. Not interested in anal either, I like to play with a girl’s vagina and I don’t find assholes arousing.

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>>42457902
>trans man who live their lives as lesbians

>>42457936
Yeah. Equivalent of perma-manmoders. Not everyone can pass, and you still have to find a way to suck it up and live your life. It’s a classic story: cope or rope.

>>42457914
>It's obvious a trans woman's penis is the perfect fit there.
Fucking disgusting. Sorry I'd rather jerk my roidclit while eating pussy nothing is going in my rapehole. Also seeing/eating/fingering a woman's pussy is the only thing that really arouses me. I'm big enough to penetrate a woman a this point but I've been celibate most if the time I've been on T so I haven't tried yet.
>>42457936
Aren't we allowed to cope ? I want to be a man not a pooner, even being a woman on T with ftm surgeries is better than being a poon.

>>42457916
the reason gender as a separate category is new is because gender, a set of societal roles and expectations, has nearly always been implicitly tied to sex. when transsexuals transition to the opposite sex, it logically follows that they are also taking on that sex's gender roles and expectations, and this is a significant driving factor for most who transition. i find it difficult to understand why someone would desire to transition to the opposite sex while retaining their birth gender role, outside of some kind of fetish. important to note: i'm not accusing/saying that anon is transitioning as a fetish, but i cant imagine another rationale for it. from my perspective, changing one's sex without changing your gender role doesnt seem to serve any other purpose than giving you different sex characteristics, so i could only imagine this to be desirable for a sexual purpose.

>>42457962
>being a woman on T with ftm surgeries is better than being a poon.
What's the difference?

>>42457962
Damn. You get me perfectly. Only difference is I have a micropenis and would never be able to penetrate.

Realistically, why would most ftms ever let anything near their rapegash? I’ve never tried it and never will, never even thought to in my youth when I was already jerking off but innocent to sex. It’s just not right, frankly. There are other ways for a pooner to get off, and I doubt they’d actually get off to penetration, they’d just be raping themselves as self harm.

>>42457976
No social humiliation ritual of pretending to be a man while being inferior to them physically in every imaginable way, that’s the difference.

>>42457962
How big are you...

>>42457974
Idk, sorry. I have autism.
I do have a woman's name I picked out, and I wear makeup to look a little bit more womanly

>>42457974
I disagree with the idea that everyone who changes their physical appearance without changing their personality has to have some sort of sex-driven motive. There are plenty of reasons people desire certain aesthetics, and sex dysphoria as a standalone is more than enough, it just feels right to exist that way, and wrong to exist the other way. The same reason you’d want 5 fingers if you had 6, even if you functioned just fine with 6. Sorry, that’s the best I can explain it. I hope it helps somewhat

>>42457774
>bi butches/femmes dont rly exist. i promise i wont bore u w/ the details but its an oxymoron thats only become a used term in the last like 8 years & most actual butchfemmes hate it

I wanna be bored w the details here. Speak on that

>>42457976
Not suffering the humiliation or calling yourself a man when you are clearly not.
>>42457977
I don't get it either but some people just aren't that genital disphoric, good for them I guess, kinda giwtwm sometimes.
>>42457990
2.7~ in, almost 3 when stretched

>>42458031
After 3 years I have less than half an inch. Are you fully natural without intervention or have you been supplementing growth some other way?
I don’t have the money right now, but I’m going to get DHT and a stretcher. I’ve tried jelqing for a few months but I didn’t notice any gains.

>>42458011
nta but butch/femme dynamics purposefully exist in disregard to the male gaze; these roles are for women to occupy in the exclusive gaze of other women. if you are available to men, you can't occupy a role that by definition is not meant for the male gaze.

>be straight ftm
>suddenly go through a phase where I was convinced I was actually an ftm butch lesbian
>no real interest in lesbian culture or that "connection with womanhood" or whatnot
>slowly realize I'm still a regular pooner, except with a crazy pornosexual lesbian fetish

What the hell would you even call this beyond a lesbian fetish? I have no interest in having an actual lesbian relationship but my type is transbians and those hefabs that exclusively go after cis men. ATP I think the whole ftm lesbian thing for me at least might just be cope for both the fact that I'm just living my life as roided up woman and that my type wouldn't be interested in me anyways, but it's a shitty cope considering how dysphoric and alienated a lot of this "dykehood" shit or whatever makes me feel.

One of the few people in my life who actually see me fully as a guy is the transbian I have feelings for, fml.

>>42457952
>>42457962
>want to be men
>still iding as a lesbian anyway
ftms really aren't trans lmao when are you two going to detrans?

>>42458043
It was always abnormally big, sorry I dont have any tips at all its pretty much just genetics.
>>42458052
Can't detrans when you never where trans you retard. I want to be a cis man but I can't so I just live as a cis woman on testosterone. Simple as.

>>42458052
be as retarded and daft as you like, it’s the internet after all.

No different from neverpassing manmoders who cope on grindr or go on to get married. If you can’t conceptualize repression, coping, and xmoding, then there’s no point explaining any transsexual concepts to you, but dating lesbians is the only real way for an ftm to get pussy. Bi and straightfems are obsessed with cock.

>>42458048
Is the idea that there's some fundamental difference in aesthetic that would result from the way someone available to the male gaze would dress, as opposed to someone who is available only to the female gaze?

That computes only on a symbolic level. Physically, I feel like my personal aesthetic has evolved independently of my sexuality.

I've recently accepted that I do not like men at all. Not the general personality spread men tend to have nor their appearance. I can find men aesthetically pleasing, but when it comes to interacting with that I'm turned off and end up kinda just tolerating sex as a means to an end and being dissociated the entire time. Basically I fell for the comphet trap that I needed a reason to not be into men than needing a reason to be into them.

But either way, my own aesthetic has not changed. So is a butch identity now somehow valid when it wasn't before? Was it secretly valid all along?

It just seems incoherent, but I guess such is the business of labelling others.

What the hell do you people think it means for a trans ftm to live as a lesbian? Do you think it’s pride flags and running around in skirts and makeup? It’s being on testosterone, having top surgery, short hair, and wearing men’s clothes, but not going “u-u-um it’s actually h-h-he/him, s-sir!” And using the men’s bathroom while looking like, shocker, a woman with a flat chest and short hair. It’s not pursuing straight women who are obsessed with dick, and instead being the butch boyfriend of a lesbian who doesn’t enjoy real penises. It’s eventually getting phallo and having sex with bisexual women and probably still willing lesbians. Living as a lesbian isn’t some obscenely feminine lifestyle that could only mean someone’s faketrans, and it’s just hrtrepping you babbling retards. It’s the same as boymoding as an estrogenized man with long hair. Why the hell would you insist on being a man when everyone can tell you aren’t one? Just live your life as close to being a normal person as you can, and get pussy through whatever means available.

>>42458119
most cucked lifestyle in existence lol
sucks to suck 4'11 poona girlie

>>42458126
No shit Sherlock. What do you think it means to be a tranny? It’s cucked and castrated, you’re preaching to the choir.

>>42457997
"sex vs. gender role" =/= "physical appearance vs. personality." sex refers to exclusively the body's sexual characteristics and genitals. most other aspects of physical appearance fall under gender role and expectations. things like clothing, hairstyles, makeup or lack thereof, etc, are not inherent to a sex but fall into either the masculine or feminine gender role. the gender role of course then also encompasses the social roles and behaviors expected of men/women.
someone seeking to be a butch mtf, then, is seeking solely to change their body's sex characteristics and genitals, and retain all aspects of the male gender role.
i'm not doubting that individual experiences sex dysphoria, but i cant understand or imagine what a different underlying reason behind that dysphoria could be, if its in no way linked to the female social role.

>>42458119
most mtfs ironically cant conceptualize of this unfortunately

>>42458149
I can and it makes me feel weird and guilty that I want to be butch myself
Like I'm copying something sacred

>>42458130
>what do you think it means to be a tranny
actually blending into society? If you can't do that genuinely kill yourself you're a disgrace to both tranny and gay communities
same to "boymoders" with plastic tits, ffs and ridiculous clothing

>>42458152
It’s not like we want to be Butch or every Butch lesbian is a repping male. You can do whatever the hell you want, nobody cares if you “appropriate” something we do while hrtrepping.

>>42458154
Yeah retard that’s the whole point of hrtrepping. Choosing the closet applicable social role so you can blend into society.

>>42458152
i dont know what to tell you other than i just dont get it

>>42458160
kk..
Thanks
>>42458154
Go play in traffic, nobody cares about your mean girls routine

>>42458072
sorry shouldve said "when is the detrans grift gonna start"
>>42458074
yeah sure buddy you're a hecking valid male lesbian

>>42458170
Holy Reddit. The fact that you genuinely can’t conceptualize hrtrepping is hilarious

>>42457524
I wish my theyfab wife would stop taking T

>>42458175
you're simply not trans and thats ok

>>42458162
you're ignoring my point. If you're taking hrt while knowing you will never pass but will only make yourself look like a freak, why? You're only making shit worse for others at that point, and for what? Being a stubborn retard?
>>42458074
you are different from a "neverpassing manmoder" because a neverpassing manmoder looks like a man. You look like an abomination.

for a while there i thought the transphobes itt were some kind of bitter mtfs but i see now its just moids who dont want le breedable women to ruin their bodies with T again. kek.

>>42458222
My rules are simple. If you want to, and can pass in the forseeable future, take hrt/transition visibly. Otherwise don't. agabmode until you pass (like i am doing on earlyhrt) or can get the docs, but don't treat it as a permament solution

>>42458232
So, functionally speaking, if I wasn't able to pass, I should have just killed myself? T is the only effective antidepressant for me, and I had untenable levels of suicidality before

>>42458250
any picrel? If you're not hysteric and overexaggerating and are actually that 1% that genuinely cannot pass, probably yes? Your life would suck in every case possible even as a ""butch""

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>>42458263
>any picrel?

>>42458263
No, I'm saying I do pass, but that it would have been an unreasonable ask to prevent me from getting on testosterone due to how effectively it stabilizes my brain chemistry regardless of how much it works physically

>>42458268
>genuine question is bait
...

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>>42458263
Nta but I built like picrel with smaller shoulders and face wisd can pass as a middle school girl easily despite being 21. For some of us it's over.

>>42458301
>can't even fathom the existence of true gigapoon genetics

threads like this r always such a blackpill
somehow it always devolves into discussion of mtf lesbians, and it's clear that most afabs cannot conceive of an amab who does not want to put their penis in things
and don't even get me started on the ftms, youd think someone who claims to experience gender dysphoria would be able to conjure up a bit more tact when talking to another gender dysphoric person about their body
i guess trans women just aren't worthy of tact in your eyes

>”butch”
>look inside
>ftm
Why do they do it

>>42458375
did we read the same thread

>>42458375
I’m a butch and I plap trans women until they goop on themselves and then I slurp it all off.

>>42458442
yes and i saw the same thing i always see in threads like this- meek trans women tying themselves into knots to try and demonstrate to some lesbian or ftm that they are not the 6'7 linebacker it's ma'am caricature of a trans woman that most have in their heads whenever they interact with us, while the other person just says "huh well i guess maybe you're one of the good ones just keep your dirty dick away from me freak"

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>>42458498
>6'7 linebacker it's ma'am caricature of a trans woman
That's me.

>>42458507
if you're not some sleazebag in a dress trying to fuck everything that moves and getting into fistfights with lesbians over not getting to fuck them, then you are NOT the image that most afab queers have about trans women

>>42458498
sure thing alice

>>42458074
>bi and straight fems are obsessed with cock.
I say this without any malice but I always felt bad for poonbros. Given that every transfem fantasy starts with "fuck me harder daddy" it is a genuine issue cause like it would be hard to have a satisfying sex life. Obviously strapons exist but yeah.

>>42458132
so trans women are fetishists except for when they live their life as some caricature of femininity, in which case they're... still fetishists
great

>>42458149
No actually most MtFs kill themselves instead because unlike for you, when they go out looking like some caricature they get their ass beaten.

>>42458542
nothingburger of a reply
i assume you're mtf? what does being a woman mean to you? what motivates your transition?

>>42458518
I am genuinely chill with and open to dating trans women, but also my last match with a trans woman on a lesbian dating app opened with "you ever sucked and been fucked by 9 inches"

>>42458590
>what does being a woman mean to you?
"being a woman" does not mean anything, it is pointless navel-gazing
>what motivates your transition
i have been violently disgusted by my sex characteristics for as long as i can remember
it started with my genitals, when i was a baby
then as i got older it became my voice too, my body and facial hair, my shoulders, hands, feet, ribcage, on and on
hence i have taken drastic steps to rid myself of the aspects of my body that i find intolerable
that is what transitioning means to me
and the fact that most other queer people cannot talk about bodies like mine without even a modicum of tactfulness, the fact that you people's first assumption about me is that i want to have penetrative sex with you, is deeply upsetting
i have spent my whole life being told that, because i'm a boy i must want to do this or that to women and girls, and for my entire life i have had to deny it, often times with tears in my eyes, and beg to be seen for the person i am, the person i always have been
and the fact that even now, even amongst other lgbt people, i still have to do it is beyond isolating
it makes me wonder how many of you people even understand what being trans is

>>42458590
Not that anon.
>what motivated you to transition
For some unknown reason I wanted to be a girl since I was a kid. Maybe its just trauma or psychological bullshit but even when I was eight years old I felt I didn't fit in with the guys and found them gross and crude and was jealous of the girls. Even when growing up as a teenager and being gay was starting to be socially acceptable i tried really hard to live as a gay man but once again the expectation of being a man, being around men and always being treated as a man just made every bad experience 10x worse. It didnt help that the gay community just always felt too campy and unironically too feminine for me. I just want to be a history nerd that obsesses over their anime and pet rabbits but with tits. That whole community just didn't vibe with me and to this day when people start mentioning typically "feminine" interests i just nod along. Im very sleepy sorry for word salad.

>>42458594
Maybe im a chud but a trans woman that starts a conversation talking about their dick is instantly sus to me. SRS isnt for everyone but yeah..

>>42458594
and that's gross, even more gross is letting people like that define your idea of what a trans woman is

>>42457524
looks like someone who'd fuck his underage cousin and then offer her meth after.

>>42458656
so, you experience sex dysphoria. how do you feel about societal gender roles? do you feel that the feminine role fits you more than the masculine role, or do you reject them on concept? do you outwardly present more femininely?
>the fact that you people's first assumption about me is that i want to have penetrative sex with you
not intending to discount your experiences, but i am not a part of that "you people." i've known many mtfs who are bottom dysphoric or otherwise exclusive bottoms. if you backread my replies, my stake in this thread is trying to understand why someone would want to be a butch mtf.

>>42458711
sorry
i got myself riled up
i guess i would say i reject gender roles
i grew up in a very "traditional" household where everybody's supposed to treat dad like a big deal and mom is supposed to be in the kitchen and do the housework, except my dad was also a total loser pos and my mom was the one who brought in all the money on top of doing literally all the other work, and she still got treated like shit by the rest of my family i guess cuz it's easier to blame a woman than it is to face up to the real problems
so i have a sour outlook on gender roles in general
i guess i have usually ended up fulfilling traditionally "feminine" roles like helping my mom with the housework and cooking and being the most emotionally supportive one out of my siblings and stuff, but mostly because i was just the only one who could be bothered to help my mom out
my outward presentation is a mix
i wear a mix of men's and women's clothes but my clothes definitely lean more masculine
but i also wear makeup and take care of my hair and speak in a voice that most ppl read as effeminate
i wouldn't really call myself butch but i don't try very hard to perform femininity either, most people assume i'm a woman but they're not really sure about it
i bristle at the notion that my transition was done for sexual reasons because i am celibate and basically asexual, i hate sex it feels alien to me and i have never had a good experience with it, though i would call myself biromantic

>>42457974
You're such a retard. How can you get it this backwards? It's the ones who transition for a fetish who have no physical dysphoria.

>>42458777
it's okay, i understand this topic gets sensitive.
your relationship with gender sounds pretty run of the mill for a lot of mtfs, i think.
the conversation i was having concerning sex vs. gender was specifically in regards to someone's expressed to desire to be butch as an mtf, not to mtfs as a whole, because the majority of mtfs desire to perform femininity to some degree in appearance/behavior and being a butch is obviously about not being feminine.

>>42458824
These topics are never black or white. A lot of neverpassers cope with stuff like calling themselves a butch because its less jarring to normies.

>>42458800
>the ones who transition for a fetish who have no physical dysphoria
completely separate demographic, not who i was discussing

>>42458824
i see, i guess i was misunderstanding ur point
sorry again
and thx for being understanding...