Let's say, hypothetically, like, 30, 40, 50 years from now, great future trans rights are doing way better, and in the process of trying to prevent EDS or something they accidentally figure out the process that causes the mismatch in like, 80% of trans people. (Zero way it's one thing for everyone).Like "Oh if so and so gene thing is defective the body and brain don't line up on sexual identity and gender and all that and there's a mismatch", and we figure that out, and there's a way to stop that mismatch from happening.Would that be trans genocide, because you are stopping this person(or future person I guess, these would be embryos being messed with) from becoming a trans individual? Or would this be like...pre-emptive transition, fixing their developmental sex to match their gender before they've even been AGAB and saving them a lifetime of medical expenses and trauma dealing with the wrong puberty? What do you think?
Does changing the gene result in a different brain gender developing to match the body or a different body development to match the brain, in this hypothetical? My answer hinges on that
>>42563422This is confusing and retarded, but if you're asking if there'd been a cure for trannyism before I started my transition would I have taken it? The answer is yes.Nobody wants to be trans. Being trans-anything is awful. I just want to be a normal girl.
If such a thing were found, then you'd essentially be killing the trans part of the person at birth and stopping there from being more. So yes, genocide fuck that
>>42563469this. anyone answering otherwise is either a libshit concerned about the "erasure" of the "lifestyle"/"culture" or a selfish chaser.
i think that this is more akin to genocide as it is an inherently eugenic fucking-with of the genes of this person, but i also think that's okay. honestly i think there is some beauty in being transgender and i can appreciate my condition now, but it's certainly not an easy life and i cannot imagine any downside to ensuring the congruence of someone's mind and body in the womb. this is a good thing.
>>42563422Unless I'm stupid what you're basically asking is "if we could detect what someone's gender truly is during development in the womb would it be unethical to manipulate their chromosomes mid-development so their sex organs match what gender their brain is."I think it really depends. If we're just changing one chromosome in order to change what sex organs they have then I fail to see how that'd be worse than just letting them roll the dice. If we're basing it off what we somehow know their chosen gender will be, or at the very least what gender their brain will likely be, and assuming we're able to somehow achieve a 100% accuracy rate, I don't think that'd be genocide. However I think the real consequences would come from what the current state of society is, as this could either be used to completely erase trans people from history and reinforce societal gender norms or as a way to fully separate gender from sex in the public consciousness.The ethics really depend on the context, however in this basic scenario I'd say yes this is unequivocally a good thing. Assuming of course that the implementation of such technology doesn't make the trans fight for equality amount to nothing.
>>42563469>Nobody wants to be transSpeak for yourself, lame ass. I love it. Inb4 you're not really trans or sumn.
>>42563558i think whether you personally like it is irrelevant, though, when it comes to this sort of thing. yes, it can be cool, and even good, but that is sort of a gamble. i think it is more ethical to remove the dice roll from the equation entirely and allow children to develop normally and be totally content with that development, EVEN IF they would have also been totally content with being trans. if there's one way to ensure their contentedness, i think the ethical choice is to pursue that.t. >>42563507
>>42563691>I think it can be I think I thinkMr. Lamar, do you really know how to play the game? Then tighten up.
This is just the Mutant question except replace Johnny Fivedicks and Chainsaw Hanss Joe with Lilith US Hondepressitisis and June Double-D McWealth>tumblr was right again
>>42563422I get the bad feeling this is gonna happen IRL by complete accident. Like someone will cure Ehlers-Danlos in embryos and like a decade later we’ll notice the trans rate in them is way lower by which point cat is out the bag.Autists might be caught up too
>>42563720what
>>42563758I mean do you know how much dumb shit humans have done just by fumbling around? Shit
>>42563422The deaf community is going through something similar now. The answer is that no one speaks for the entire community, so younger people will shift to adopt the new paradigm, while a small minority of oldheads seethe because they are ingrained in the old culture
>>42563782I hate talking to brainlets bruh
>>42563826you cannot possibly be serious lmfao
>>42563422>Oh if so and so gene thingthats 1000% not how genetics work. Single genes to single phenotypes are exceptionally rare and generally not the rule. basically if you think you identified the gay/autism gene or in this case the tranny gene no you didn't and this is some dumb phrenology tier shit that wont work and yes it would end in genocide and i dont mean if your hypothetical were true it would be i mean that your hypothetical is unscientific and the kind of thinking that leads to unhinged retards doing actual genocide on bunk psuedo-mythology
>>42563921You was thinking a second ago but then stopped so it's not worth it move on kek
>>42564019nonny i'm just not interested in learning about Kendrick Lamar's sportsball halftime show to have a discussion which could have been more productive had it never been brought up in the first placei believe it is often unwise to speak in objective terms especially about something as inherently subjective as fucking ethicsyou try thinking maybe
>>42563558>I would deliberately choose to engage in 3-5 years of pain and humiliation, at enormous expense, while being blamed for destroying society and harassed and threatened on a daily basis, if I didn't have to. The only reason to transition is gender dysphoria. Trying to function while visibly trans is playing life on nightmare+ difficulty, gender dysphoria is just worse.
>>42564004i don't really think anon's point is that it would literally be a single gene. the hypothetical is about whether you think transsexuality should be eliminated in utero if such a thing were possible.
>>42564004Who said single gene?I'm assuming it's a cluster or whole pattern that is also probably tied to something else(OP says Ethlers Danlos which is correlated to being trans hard enough I could see curing the former effecting the latter) and would get caught by accident.
>>42564004Unserious people are incapable of interacting with hypotheticals.
>>42564154>if such a thing were possible.my point is that its not possible>>42564179>I'm assuming it's a cluster or whole pattern that is also probably tied to something elseyeah, something else like "lung function" or "bone distribution". thats how you get fruit flies with eyes growing out of their backs >>42564192>Unserious people are incapable of interacting with hypotheticals.no its just that hypotheticals that dont understand the basics of the science underlying their hypotheticals are bs. real life doesn't work by mixing and matching variables. things are interdependent and overdetermined not puzzle pieces that you can just choose to fit together differently.it really is just a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of reality to think that things exist as discrete objects in a void untethered from their material history and development that could just be swapped out its as meaningful as asking if you could hypothetically be an attack helicopter. its incoherent
>>42564264>my point is that its not possiblethat's why it's a hypothetical?
>>42564287what is the purpose of a hypothetical that is incongruent with reality? that is not a hypothetical thats fantasy
>>42564264>its as meaningful as asking if you could hypothetically be an attack helicopter. its incoherentnta but this is unironically also a perfectly valid hypothetical scenario desuwhether something is literally, actually possible is immaterial; that's not the point of the discussion.
perfectly valid hypothe>>42564327>perfectly valid hypothetical scenarioits a perfectly valid fictional scenario >that's not the point of the discussion.what is? to spread propaganda?like i initially said entertaining this fantasy "what if xyz then would it be genocide" is how you get real genocide. these "hypothetical" "thought experiments" are so wrapped up in liberal presumptions about ethical norms and positivist science that they just serve as vehicles for reinforcing the status quo and obscuring the reality of the situation to test for logical contradictions that dont necessarily even apply if you dont subscribe to the aforementioned liberal assumptions the hypothetical presented is "what if they find the genetic mismatch gene(or complex)"this isn't how genetics work, phenotypic expression(eg being trans) is not determined by genetics(trans gene(or complex), its genetics interacting with the environment, so you would also have to change the environment(society) on top of changing the genes. its not nature or nurture its both equally interacting and reinforcing eachother. "ah but what if hypothetically we lived in a world where genes were the sole determinative" well then you just changed the entire fucking history of humanity on top of changing just that one thing, because reality isn't mix-and-match create your own scenario video game "ah but what if it was" well now you are back to being in fantasy land and completely disconnected from reality. when you change one thing you change a whole cascade of other things, because things-in-themselves are not discrete self-generating entities disconnected from the rest of the material world tical scenario
>>42564297all hypotheticals are incongruent with reality. do you know what a hypothetical is?
>>42564461>all hypotheticals are incongruent with reality. do you know what a hypothetical is?no they arent. yes i do. for hypotheticals to be valid they must be based in concrete material reality not on abstract ideals. otherwise its just circlejerkingthe "point" is to get you to concede "no it wouldn't be genocide" and then suggest that "if you want to be logically consistent" "by that same argument" then xyz but the hypothetical is already not logically valid in the first place because it assumes an abstract idealized (incorrect) view of not only genetics but the nature of being trans and the genetic relation to it. trying to answer in good faith only reinforced this incorrect "gender ideology"
>>42564515>for hypotheticals to be valid they must be based in concrete material reality not on abstract ideals.since when? nona, hypotheticals have many uses. often, unrealistic hypotheticals can serve to show a flaw in someone's reasoning. for example>i think all troons should be hung>well what if you had a kid who was trans?the hypothetical forces the chud to either confront the moral implications of his position, or make an explicit exception for his own children. now can you see how it'd be frustrating if the chud here just said>my kid isn't trans, your hypothetical has to be based in concrete material reality!
>>42564847to expand on this since i just thought of another way of putting it: for a worldview to be robust it needs to make sense even in situations that don't align with material reality, because material reality is unpredictable. there is a lot we don't know about the world, and even more we don't know about what the future holds. if your moral system can't stand up to a hypothetical, what's to stop a real life situation from coming along that puts it under the microscope?
>>42564847>unrealistic hypotheticals can serve to show a flaw in someone's reasoningugh i dont rly want to argue idk why i even posted all that. but this isn't true if you dont subscribe to deontology your implicit assumption is that their "flaw" is inconsistency making them a hypocrite. its not actually some kind of education tool but beating them over the head for not believing in your ethics. which i mean fine if theyre chuds but you arent teaching them anything
>>42564946>you arent teaching them anythingi know. i just don't have anything better to do with myself, and winning internet arguments strokes my declining ego.
If parents could take a pill that prevents their unborn child from being gay, would taking the medication be considered gay genocide?Essentially the same question. It just depends on whether you see being gay as a bad or good thing or if parents should have the right to make that choice. It just depends on your politics.
>>42565099I mean gay people generally don't feel any inherent discomfort as is while trans people generally need hormones or potentially surgery to reduce the discomfort caused by the mismatch
>>42565198Yes, dysphoria does add some additional complexity to the question. Devil's in the details. But it's just another point in favor of curing transgenderism/homosexuality. Gay people might to experience dysphoria but they experience a lot of violence and trauma living in a heterosexual culture. The degree of suffering is different, but the heart of the question is still the same.
>>42565491Gay people might not*Typo lol
>>42565491...Didn't OP mention this in the context of a more transpositive future?Like we're generally fine with deaf people nowadays, doesn't mean curing that is le bad
>>42563422i'm fighting the hypothetical a little bit by fixating on your mention of EDS but it looks to me like the EDS-autism-trans cluster people have a bunch of anomalous cognitive stuff happening, much of which is not obviously negative. gender identity is not the only unusual thing about them. if you start poking around this set of traits and trying to alter the underlying causes, there are likely going to be tradeoffs. it's not going to be as simple as "we fix this one thing and get a kid whose life is strictly better than if we hadn't intervened"imo we have to leave this up to individual parental choice and not use state force or medical authority to try to force a consensus. obviously there are extreme cases we shouldn't allow, if somebody crisprs a kid into having torsion dystonia for the IQ boost the legal system has got to step in, but we should tolerate a fairly wide range of practice. if a couple wants to make sure they don't have a trans kid, i don't necessarily think we should stop them, because i don't want a trans kid being born into that situation anyway
>>42565517Yeah, but everyone agrees that curing mental illnesses and disabilities is good. Being transgender or gay is considered "a natural variation of human experience" by health care orgs and neither are officially considered mental illnesses.
>>42565856because you can't cure transsexuality or homosexuality dumbass
i would kill god to have this done to me.i already wanna kms so this doesnt feel much different...ill never know what im missing.i used to feel happy abt being trans & i just don't anymore, every trans person gets to this point and the lucky ones have the courage to ropesorry that was dark idk im just venting
>>42563422i mean sure if its genetic but imo its probably got more to do with hormones during gestation, socialization, and maybe microplastics/other contaminants so idk if youll ever be able to fully prevent it. me personally id rather they just get really good at diagnosing it early and providing fertility options
I think that the term genocide has become quite a loaded term in various ways so I don't care to weigh in on that word specifically.That said I do take issue with the idea that transness is some sort of mistake that needs to be removed from human existence, which I think is really what you are asking. I think it would be bad if we started trying to gene edit trans people out of existence, yes. I do not think my life is something miserable or that it harms other people. I value my own ability to exist and if I was not trans I would not be the person I am currently. Its like trying to imagine being murdered, but a male sibling will magically come into existence? Of course I do not want that, I want to exist.I found a way to manage the trauma of being born in the wrong sex and it was to change my sex. I think I bring value to the world and I like my life.
>>42566080 I'm not the one who brought up curing deaf people. I'm saying that you can't compare them because you can cure deafness but you can't cure homosexuality.
>>42563422if there was a vaccine for dysphoria id be on board with it, I dont want people to sufferand kill all non dysphoric "trans" people
>>42566238i'm nta i'm just a retard i thought you were a chud i failed to read the reply chain. apawlogeez.
>>42563422The problem is that the parents/society will force this fix on everyone because they don't want any more trannies, not that they're concerned with the hypothetical suffering of the individual.
>>42566248Do you not believe that transition is the treatment for dysphoria? Do you not think you can be a dysphoric transsexual, but change your sex and live a happy fulfilled life?
>>42563422It is eugenics, but it doesn't kill anyone or anything, not does it put them through suffering or marginalization, so it's not a genocide. I would say it is morally good. If you just abort all the trans and gay fetuses, that's different.
trans people are some of the most progressive transhumanists and many would embrace gene editing without a second thought. You should be asking cis people how they would react to having their defects, which are many, cured by gene hacking.
