Oh no trannyxisters, we are betrayed!
>>42761820He's not wrong. As long as Democrats surrender the economic war to Republicans we will lose the election, and if we lose the election it doesn't matter if we support trans rights.Lead with the economic argument and treat the trans issue as a distraction, which it is.
trans activism also needs to be more culturally normal and focus less on things like pronouns and more on things like medical access, legal recognition, and anti-discrimination laws
>>42761889This, pronoun focused "activism" is theyfab shit
>>42761820No tranny I've ever known cares about "pronouns". Medical access and legal sex changes are the only things of importance.
He's right though. California protects trans rights by not being obnoxious while doing it. You just need to shut the fuck and do it so retarded rightoids dont culture war about it
>>42761820im not voting newsom anyway and neither should any of youask for a better candidate and be annoying constantly
>>42761889>>42761906>>42761934pronouns are a spook honestly
>>42761977thisanyway does anyone else think newsom is basically as bad for palestine as vance is?I won't vote for a zionist like him, even if his policies are totally different he's basically the same as vance. In fact I hope vance wins actually, just so the democrats learn not to platform genociders!
>>42761994Imagine voting for the leader of your nation based on how the interests of a million sand people on the far side of the world. Ones who would probably throw you off a rooftop if they could.
>>42762011fuck off zionist retardwe should all vote for jd vance next time just to show the democrats how we really feel about them platforming genociders!
im voting for vance because i dont believe in democracy, capitalism, or the american empire and vance will do a lot better of a job at getting rid of all 3
>>42762011are we talking about Palestinian or our Jewish overlords its hard to tell.
>>42762011shut up yid, we know what zionists are doing to american children behind closed doors
>>42762067does anyone else think newsom looks kinda like epstein?I'm really uncomfortable with the idea of voting for him, at least vance doesn't look anything like that pedo zionest
gavin newsom must never become president. do not let the democratic party force this deeply unpopular illiterate retard on us.>>42761889trans activism does focus on those thingsthe media, which is run entirely by cis people, and establishment politicians, who are all cis people, focus on pronouns because they want their campaign issues to be scissor statements rather than actual improvements to people's lives.
>>42762080actually trans activism does focus on things like pronouns and how many genders there are and how you can be a man and wear a dress, because just like the media and politics, trans activism is run by cis people
>>42762022>>42762067>ahh help someone isn't as retarded as me, they must be a JOOAnyways genociding yourselves because some kikes are genocding some sand niggers is 90IQ behavior.>>42762049Voting on account of either is mentally retarded.
>>42761820>>42761867>>42761889>>42761934>new leftist behavior program downloaded from the powers that be>backpeddle on the last 16 years>pretend like it never happenedGod. You're pathetic
>>42761820>Democrats need to stop debating trannies and do some actual work
>>42761954Yeah...it was the right that was being retarded....
>>42762079stupid fuck. it's like a 17 yeard difference between those pieces of shitofc newsome would look closer to another boomer freak.hope you swallow some cyanide tonight, hook me up if you wanna stream?! <3 :D
>>42762113please quote me where I ever supported the last 15 years of extreme social progressivism before you call me a hypocrite
>>42762067Holy shit, a /legbutt/ with some balls
>>42762121are you stupid or something?look at these two men! both old! both white! both have grey hair and pointy noses or something! both zionist liberals!I'm voting vance because I don't hate palestine, and you're a zionist if you don't agree
>>42762067i don't please post vids? :/*concerned*
>>42761820You might not like it but Joe Biden was the single best president for trans people and LGBT as a whole and you killed him over Isreal (which is bad) and now you get shit like Kamala and Newsom. Enjoy, "leftists", does it taste good?
>>42762148kinda tasty... but then i'm an actual "leftist"... a true fascist!
>>42762091you know what that's a reasonable criticism. there's definitely a problem even in activist spaces with cis "allies" speaking for us without ever actually asking us what our needs are. i think the distinction i'd like to draw here is that in the media and in mainstream politics, that happens 100% of the time, whereas in specifically trans-focused and LGBT activism, sometimes actual work gets done.
>>42762100>Anyways genociding yourselves because some kikes are genocding some sand niggers is 90IQ behavior.you're intentionally ignoring the fact that zionists are in our country, stealing our money and land, raping and torturing children. >b-but muh palestinians do bad thingthey are on the other side of the world, hamas may be evil but they aren't kidnapping kids from american streets and they aren't forcing our government to give them our money like zionists are. Only a zionist would use such a shit argument, kill yourself
>>42762148Biden was too woke, he ruined it for us. Late Obongo was objectively the best time in human history for us.
>>42762175>you're intentionally ignoring the fact that zionists are in our country, stealing our money and land, raping and torturing children.Cool. If you are trans that isn't even in the top 10 list for greatest threats. Jews could be hunting the goyim and turning them into sausages and it still wouldn't be a top 5 issue.You don't even have a self-preservation instinct, your only argument is "reee ur a joo!", you are basically a vegetable.
>>42762148biden's administration did a competent job in running the country for the four years they were givenbiden himself failed to do his One Job of not letting trump get reelected and undoing everything his administration accomplishedif he doesn't run, and the democrats have a normal primary, we're looking at a completely different world today
>>42762205>biden himself failed to do his One Job of not letting trump get reelectedThat's on the American public. Joe Biden gets 1 vote just like you
>>42762205>if he doesn't run, and the democrats have a normal primaryFalling for this shit makes you just as retarded as the average poltard. People had already decided that both sides bad, politics are the same and no democrat running would have changed that in the slightest. Americans needed to be shot dead in the street to learn a lesson, I'm afraid.
>>42762201>actually the objectively evil murderous child rapists aren't important for youyou'll call me stupid for calling me a jew, you're not calling me a liar
>>42762237Self-preservation is #1, there is no #2 without it.And yes, you are stupid. Like laughably stupid, amount to nothing in life stupid.
>>42762113
>>42762254>>42762237Not just self preservation, but the preservation of my people. Imagine saying that everyone like you should be permitted to be eradicated, over some irrelevant patch of desert far away.It's like a church lady asking why I don't care about Jesus.
>>42761820About fucking time>>42761889Based.
>>42762223>That's on the American public.This. So much fucking this.You American democrats and leftists are so fucking retarded. The problem ahead of you is not, "get the right person elected," it's to find some bloody fucking way to unfuck your entire society. Because, and this is an inarguable fucking fact, the real issue is that Trump was re-electable at all for the American public.If your society was functioning, you would not have let that dementia-riddled doddering retard who literally attempted an anti-democratic power grab get another day on the ballot.
>>42762169>cis "allies"You should never trust anybody that calls themselves your "ally"
>>42761820if you ever put your faith for the future in gavin fucking newsom you have bigger problems than this statement
>>42762334Leftists have a problem where they seem to believe that everyone is actually a nice person and the democrats just don't explain things properly so people have to vote republican. They refuse to accept that a large part of the population is either actively bloodthirsty or indifferent to the bloodthirst of others
>>42762365I like Gavin because he knows how to be a fucking politician and California is good for trannies.
>>42762419gavin is better than trump and has better odds of getting elected than harris did but he is still extremely status quo, not much to admire
>>42762469>status quoRetarded and wrong.
>>42762481he has refused to come out against aipac and is your average "the left has gone too far!!!" lib. i will not deny that he has signed in good policies, but again, status quo overall.
>>42762491There you go asking for retarded lip service that does nothing. Literally the pronoun thing we're talking about. I do not give a FUCK about what he says. I care about that he does and by looking at laws passed in California, it's not the fucking status quo
>>42761820don't you know this move severely affects our dear non-dysphoric, TMA, gender non-conforming trannies?
>>42762505>asking for retarded lip servicehe literally implied that he would take money from aipac if they came to him. what he says is going to reflect on him and his beliefs. gavin newsom has no interest in fixing the fundamental problems that are plaguing this country (cough cough capitalism).
>>42762547Saying aipac and not all pacs lets me know that you don't care about smashing capitalism, you just want to be leftist antisemitic
>>42762569i hold no animosity toward jewish people to speak of, israel's government is just full of evil genociders and i don't like politicians who are comfortable taking money from evil genociders. i am not familiar enough with pacs to have any strong opinions on whether they should or should not exist in any capacity.
>>42762595So you don't actually care about capitalism plaguing the country or else you would be against all pacs and citizen's united by default. Just mad when the jews do it.lol
>>42762613so, like i said, i don't actually know enough about pacs to have come to a conclusion on whether they should exist at all. it has nothing to do with jewish people, it has to do with the government of israel.
>>42762223>>42762334blaming the public is of course "correct" in some abstract sense, normies really are evil, but is useless because the public is not going to change itself in response to your blame. you go to an election with the public you have at the time, not the public you might wish to have at a later time. if the public is composed of evil people who want bad things for the world, you need to figure out a strategy that allows you to win despite that and without compromising your actual principles.in the long run of course you want to change the public to not be evil, and winning elections may be useful intermediate steps along the way to this goal.>>42762236respectfully i think you're wrong about that. the palestine issue, like so many issues, hurt harris so much because she refused to even acknowledge it. in a primary you don't get a choice about what issues to acknowledge, other candidates will force your hand and if you don't respond you just lose. that happened to harris in the general election when it should have happened in the primary.
>>42762657She did acknowledge it, you're spouting bullshit. Looks like you also needed to learn the lesson by touching the stove
>>42761820Democrats literally do not talk about pronouns except to say that trans people deserve human rights, and many of them won't even do that. This is a bullshit narrative coming from the right, the ones who are ACTUALLY obsessed with pronouns. Trump literally made pronouns the cornerstone of his campaign. It's where most of his ad spending went Stop pushing this bullshit. It's not compatible with reality.
>>42762642>nation shows determination to exist|:>nation shows determination to exist, jewsD:<
>>42762642So you don't have any idea what "capitalism plaguing the country" actually means if you don't understand why you should hate the concept of pacs existing at all. The uneducated yapping the loudest about politics, this country can never recover
>>42762681>>nation shows determination to existi have no interest in debating whether israel's actions were justified with you.
>thread devolves into israel/palestineAnd this is why you retarded trannies are in this situation in the first place. Keep throwing yourselves under the bus for people that would have you dead
>>42762148>you killed him over IsrealBiden got forced out of his position by his party because his cognitive decline was on full display during the first debate with Trump. Then after that he called Zelenskyy "President Putin," further humiliating himself. Before the first debate, people excused this cognitive decline as being "a cold" or that he has "a stutter." The Democrats are responsible for their own failure by gaslighting about Biden condition and choosing Kamala, who was the most disliked Democrat 2020 candidate.
>>42762701>you don't have any idea what "capitalism plaguing the country" actually meanspeople are deprived of the fruits of their labor, we waste labor to produce needless luxuries for the owner class, and we allow ourselves to be ruled by people who contribute nothing, and whose only value to society is being adept at moving money around.>uneducated yappingi will be the first to admit that i am uneducated. that doesn't make it any less obvious that capitalism is a scourge, or that aipac is a tool used by the israeli government to influence our country's policies.
>>42762736>people are deprived of the fruits of their laborWait...You don't get paid?Jesus!
>>42762729>cognitive decline>he said the wrong name once and immediately correctedCan you point to any negative policy pushed by joe biden thanks to this "cognitive decline"?
>>42762765>You don't get paid?for the owner class to profit, people are necessarily paid less than the value their labor produces, yeah
This thread just confirms that trannies should lose the right to vote
>>42762772My post explained why he's gone and why the Democrats lost the election. I wasn't shitting in Joe Biden's dick, but rather the Democratic Party.
>>42762804No, you're being an armchair psychologist saying that someone had a cognitive decline an then backpedaled when I didn't play along. Spineless bitch
>>42762798I will fucking scratch you to fuck with my long nails if you do that.
>>42762797Did you purchase the machines, software, building, shipping, electricity, water etc. that company uses to operate?
Who are these democrats focusing on pronouns? Can he name one?
>>42762812Are you seriously arguing Biden wasn't clearly having significant issues with dementia?
>>42762812After that debate with Trump, Democrats wanted Biden replaced. Biden said, 'Time to end it,' when referring to the drama that followed after Biden's poor performance (due to cognitive decline) in the debate and that he will stay in the race.
>>42762772For the business to be able to attract investors (like companies holding onto people's 401k's) to keep a business alive, it's got to prove to not be a money sink?Maybe we should just abolish publicly owned businesses (the ones that provide shares) and only have mom and pop shops that split the income across the workers... Like shares.What happens if the company faces hardship though?Would the employees pitch in and donate their own money?Just trying to picture it in my head.
>>42762798dont worry the russian scum that visits this site 24/7 to post propaganda for rubles so these subhumans can survive another day in their subhuman shithole arent allowed to vote in the usa
>>42762657Of course I'm not suggesting fatalistic blaming the public for being morons is a constructive way forward. I'm only doing that for catharsis and rhetorical impact on an anonymous image board.Of course winning elections and influencing policy right now is useful intermediate step. That's how Republicans got to the position here. They fought to put ideology and partisanship into every position from lowly school board commissioner up to judges on your supreme court.But how are you going to transform the public as a generational project? On my end (not American though), it's about slowly working to get friends and family involved in hyper-local politics. Because that's where people can immediately see an impact from the work they do. You write an email to a city councillor, maybe you actually get a reply back! Do it often enough, and you may get a phone call from the councillor directly rather than just the office staff. And they are "easy" to bully on certain issues, if you end up the only one to actually bother contacting them on an agenda item. I think this is the recipe to change political apathy into engagement, because the battles over subnational and national politics are much larger in scope and more diffuse in the tangible impacts.
I'm voting for whoever wins the Dem primary. Yall keep wasting your time and energy, I don't have the privilege to constantly shit on the party that is against the Trump dictatorship.
>>42761820Do they even focus much on it?
>>42762825i did not. however, all of those things are the product of the labor of other members of the working class, who are themselves not paid the full value of their labor. i cannot emphasize enough that, if everyone was being paid for the full value of their labor, the owner class would necessarily break even.think of it this way: every worker performs some amount of labor with a dollar value. and some amount of labor is performed within the entire economy that has some dollar value, and importantly the dollar value of the labor across the entire economy is going to be the sum of the value of all the individual workers' labor. so if the owner class is making a profit, they must be taking from that pool of the labor value for the entire economy, and since the economy's labor value only comes from workers' labor (of course the owner class does perform some amount of labor with some amount of value but they are paid wildly out of proportion of that) then they must be depriving some workers of some amount of the value of their labor.
What people dont like is being micro managed by moral police. whether its blue haired woke people or fire brand evangelicals. People dont like being told what to do, what they can say, what they are allowed to do.Gavin already flamed out though. he needs the black vote in order to win the democratic primary, but kamala is dominating with minorities, she is getting saddam level polling with black women especially
>>42762932Don't get me wrong, I don't care, but the problem would be when people ARE involved in politics.Look at Mamdani's proposed tax hikes and his white supremacist behaviour by mandating ID to shovel snow.Or the Virginia Governor who managed to introduce about 30 new/increased taxes before her seat was even warm.Apparently some stuff going on in Maryland too, Palisades still not building due to regulations, Chicago Bulls leaving Chicago due to high taxes, etc.
>>42762829its absolutely insane that the Republican party can forward 10,000+ bills targeting trans people and a slew of executive orders, statements, speeches and campaigns targeting "gender ideology", a rotating collection of grifters and pundits obsessed with trans people, and STILL maintain a narrative that it's the Democratic party that's "too focused on pronouns"
OH NO NO NO NO NO NOLOOK AT THIS DUDE
I don’t feel like Democrats as a whole really focus on too much on trans issues. There are some that do and that can be cringe, but like literally everything any politician has ever said is cringe. A lot of the “focus” on trans issues now I see is just shit like this. People like Gavin going like, “Well actually, now that every concern about minority rights being erased has been proven justified, maybe we should talk about how we need to appeal to Schizophrenic Fascist voters who will NEVER vote for us anyways!” Like what is the point here exactly? If anything, I think Democrats would be more appealing if they grew a fucking spine and would consistently stand up for something, ANYTHING, LITERALLY ANYTHING, instead of playing into a narrative that is not based in reality and that was created by people explicitly campaigning against them…
>>42762942>however, all of those things are the product ofBank loans taken out by the founder and investments from people that want to see a return.The problem with trying to limit wealth, is you limit entrepreneurship and motivation.When you limit that, you will find that everyone will just be working for the same few companies.
>>42762975they got russian botfarms behind them a lot of the posts steering public opinion online on that topic come from russian subhumans sitting in st petersburgif ukraine would bomb the farms the internet would be a slightly better placemaybe chinese indian and israeli shills next?
>>42762977dawg why do the top options already suck balls lmao
>>42761820who gives a fuck about pronouns tho
>>42763019Because they are career politicians
>>42763019democrat party has two problems1. an image problem, they have been branded as woke, social justice warriors, people who get offended at the racism of a ham sandwich, this has made young people and especially young men get pushed into the arms of the republicans 2. the party has a shit bench of young people and is leaderless compared to the republicans who have vance, rubio, desantis, etc
>>42762977oh my fucking god why the hell are they trying to run with kamala again i alr called this shit when they tried to go with her the first time everyone hated biden so why would they pick his vice president??? literally the same administration that lost like they have to be deliberately trying to buckbreak the american people by doing this shit.
>>42762992>Bank loansthe next time you get a bank loan to produce any of the things you listed let me know. money is just a fake system constructed by humans to organize ourselves, perform labor, and distribute goods and services.>The problem with trying to limit wealth, is you limit entrepreneurship and motivation.i'm not into the mystic attitude people seem to have toward entrepreneurship. i mean people literally talk about some so-called 'entrepreneurial spirit' like businesspeople are irreplaceable messiahs; they aren't! businesspeople are (with plenty of exceptions) charismatic individuals who are generally okay being a little shitty to get ahead in life. i do not buy that the promise of a life of untold luxury gained by exploiting others that appeals exclusively to sociopathic freaks like the ones who rule the world currently is the only system that can produce innovation.
>>42763019Because they are people with power, electable, and have actually done things in the community that real life people appreciate. Turns out the loud minority leftists who just bitch and moan about every last thing and screech "Both sides are bad" are not representative of the voting population.
>>42763061Who is "they"? The American people? I called this shit. First "leftists" bitch about there being no primary, then in the primary they will bitch about the chosen candidates being not who they want, and that the entire vote was rigged by "CIA AND MOSSAD" and is not representative of the American people. God, give me a fucking break.
>>42763074Nigga she already lost once it’s not just “le evil xitter leftists” not voting for her.
>>42763061no one has announced they are running yet, probably wont be till after the midterms, but yeah, she probably running.as i said in another post, she is winning with black people, hispanics, and gavin barely is winning with the white demographic.this election wont be a walk in the park for gruesome gavin
>>42762942>if everyone was being paid for the full value of their labor, the owner class would necessarily break even.Let's assume that's that case. Why would anyone take the risk of creating a company then? Putting all that money, time and effort at risk. The company could fail and the owner lost everything. But the worker simply lost a job.
>itt liberal troons who think they wont eventually be the scapegoat if they vote for the blue capitalists instead of the red ones
>>42762983Most people, including democratic voters, don't really give a fuck about weird tranny freaks.
>>42763105no ones falling for it any more lmao
>>42763126keep deepthroating epstein
>>42763118America’s greatest failure is that so many of you fuckers are functionally illiterate.
>>42763103i'm not convinced that we need a world of companies, that companies should be started and owned by a single individual, or that innovating should require starting a company and putting your livelihood on the line. ultimately companies are just systems in furtherance of the production of goods and services. there are a lot of shapes a system in furtherance of the production of goods and services can take, i think.
>>42763099Ya motherfucker I know, as we've already seen, lefties are just a loud jobless minority. The point is that leftists scream meltdown so fast with every Democrat. There is no confirmation that Kamala is even running but that bitch leftie is already bitching and moaning. Its so funny how low information the anti-Democrat party and how much they want Trump to win.
>>42763164the person saying that sucked balls was me and I literally voted for kamala and would do so again, still sucks balls lol
>>42763164trump wont be running in 2028.demonrats will have to go up against either vance, rubio, desantis, cruz, who knows who else.anyways, republican nominee in 2028 will be less of an old retard like trump,
>>42763150>we need a world of companies, that companies should be started and owned by a single individual, or that innovating should require starting a company and putting your livelihood on the line.It does if you want any sort of significant level of production.You're basically running into the problem of why communism is a retarded meme. Profit is how the owner is paid. Why would they put all that effort and risk in for LITERALLY no personal benefit. The worker gets paid. He pays for his house, buys his food.The owner, in your break even scenario, literally doesn't get paid a dime. How does he pay for his food and house?
>>42763066>i'm not into the mystic attitude people seem to have toward entrepreneurshipYou don't need to be.You just need to understand that it brings YOU choice and opportunity.PhonesComputersFurnitureFoodDrinkHRTClothing>>Bank loans>the next time you get a bank loan to produce any of the things you listed let me knowAgain, your lack of understanding about business.Every business ever started did so with a business plan and approaching an entity (bank/investor) with money to convince them to give it to you.With that money, you fund other people's labour value.Computers? Somebody built themTelephones? A company builds them and another company maintains the infrastructureOffice space? Somebody built thatFurniture? Somebody built thatStaff need uniforms? Somebody created themAll of those things go through an entire supply chain. Delivery drivers, miners, lumberjacks, farmers, warehouse staff, machinists.I can go to the shop, pick up a sandwich, and there would be a whole network of people that were involved.Simple cheese sandwich:Wheat Farmer > Delivery to a Miller > Delivery to a baker (who also sourced yeast) > to a manufacturer to make the sandwich with the cheese and butter sourced elsewhere > wrapped up in a box where the cardboard was sourced elsewhere > Delivered to a store built by someone, who keep it refrigerated in machines built by someone, stocked by a store employee, checked out by a cashier (both of whom are wearing uniforms) on a till that was built by someone and powered by electricity that was installed by someone and maintained by someone else.And you only have to pay $2 for it.Who is worth that $2? Or is it all of them?Should the sandwich actually be $30 so that everyone can get $2, or does everybody need more per sandwich because the price is now $30?
>>42763143Ironic. My point is that downplaying trannies is still playing to the democrat base.
>>42763092>Who is "they"? like the democrats i guess??? the freemasons???? i don’t fucking know. why would i know how that shit works??>First "leftists" bitch about there being no primary, then in the primary they will bitch about the chosen candidates being not who they want, and that the entire vote was rigged by "CIA AND MOSSAD" and is not representative of the American people. God, give me a fucking break.i’m not reading all that >>42763100ohhhhhhhhhhhhh ok idefk anything abt the whole thing cus it’s rigged anyways idk clav said gavin newsom mogs tho so i thought ppl would be fucking with gavin newsom i guess not tho. the sheeple have spoken>>42763105liddorlyyy it’s all a psyop they’re both playing us
>>42763229>Phones>Computers>...all of these things were, and are, produced by workers. the fact that they came about under capitalism does not mean capitalism is necessary to produce such things.>>42763229>Again, your lack of understanding about business...i understand that people get loans to start business, anon. my point is that it's still workers who produce everything for the company, and always will be.>Who is worth that $2? Or is it all of them?well we don't really have to wonder, i'm sure you could crunch the numbers and figure out exactly what portion of that $2 went to every worker in every step of the supply chain you just outlined. and, if you added it up, you would find that all the workers it took to make that $2 sandwich were not collectively paid $2 for it, because if they were nobody would have made a profit.
>>42763221>Profit is how the owner is paid. Why would they put all that effort and risk in for LITERALLY no personal benefit.anon, what i'm saying is that we don't need a system where people need to take a massive risk and make massive investment to innovate, in which case you don't need all this incentive. it is physically possible for new systems of production to be established without anyone's livelihood being put on the line. of course people still need to run these systems, and those people need some compensation since that is a form of labor like i mentioned, but complete ownership over a 'company' is not reasonable compensation for the labor that goes into being a decision-maker for a system of production.
>>42763901>we don't need a system where people need to take a massive risk and make massive investment to innovateAny and all development costs a ton of money. Insane amounts of money. I think a central planning board would do a better job than bands of ketamine addicts and pedophiles as we have now, but this is an exceptionally retarded and ignorant statement.
>>42763901>what i'm saying is that we don't need a system where people need to take a massive risk and make massive investment to innovateI'm not even talking about innovation. I'm talking about making cables, making clothes to put in stores, making tractors, making food. All of these things have to be done on a massive scale to supply hundreds of millions of people. The machinery alone is millions and millions of dollars.By the way, how do you properly value someone's labor? The item they contributed to making sells for x and they contributed y% (subjective), therefore they get that amount? How do you determine how much it sells for? Free market capitalism? >it is physically possible for new systems of production to be established without anyone's livelihood being put on the line.What, by nationalizing every single company and paying for all machinery, electricity, labor etc. etc. via massive taxes?Communism is a retarded failure, anon.
>>42763918>Any and all development costs a ton of money.no it doesn't! it costs a ton of LABOR. money isn't real anon. obviously we as a society take a risk however you slice it because we could devote our labor to something that doesn't pan out, but that risk need not be placed on a single individual who is granted sole ownership. in fact, it's not even really placed on a single individual in the current system. sure, they risk going bankrupt, but when that happens the rest of us pay for it because banks have to eat the loss and raise aprs/reduce apys to account for such cases.
>>42764037>I'm not even talking about innovation. I'm talking about making cables, making clothes to put in stores, making tractors, making food.what about it?>By the way, how do you properly value someone's labor?i'm not necessarily opposed to a market economy, or even to a job market. i just think the concept of a 'company', at least as they are legally structured today, is kind of absurd.>What, by nationalizing every single company and paying for all machinery, electricity, labor etc. etc. via massive taxes?i didn't say that. to tell you the truth, i'm not sure! i think about this stuff a good bit, but i only know so much and have not come to a solid conclusion. i don't really understand why you think anything would need to be paid for if the companies were nationalized, either. once they're nationalized the government owns the assets :P
>>42764037>how much do they get paid>it costs so much moneythere is no capital in communism, things cost as much as labor as it takes to make them happen, the only thing you must weigh is if the labor cost of having a bunch of people build all this stuff is worth not having them doing something else
>>42764087>what about it?Are you pretending to not understand on purpose?>to tell you the truth, i'm not sure!Spoiler: there is no good answer and that's one of the many reasons communism is retarded.>>42764096>there is no capital in communism, things cost as much as labor as it takes to make them happenLmao. Ah yes, no money. So, who gets to live in the balmy beach house and who lives in the slums?>w-well everyone lives in identical commie blocks!Who lives in the commie block with the nice view of the river? Who lives in the one with just a view of another commieblock? Who lives in the commieblock that receives more light year round due to cardinal direction of the building placement? Who lives the one that receives hardly any light?Who is more valuable? The software developer who sits in a chair all day who maintains the crucial electrical grid. Or a toilet cleaner who sweats all day? They work the same amount of hours. But one likely provides more benefit to society.Another problem with the delusion of communism. The denial of inherent value.
how many of you actually have a degree in a subject besides muh computer
>>42762011I'm personally just looking at how he's already behaved in cali
>>42764177communism isnt about everyone having exactly the same things, it is about not having different classes, also why would you intentionally build slums?also commie blocks were built in russia because they had like no houses and needed to build a ton really fast blah blah something about industrialization and stuff, we dont actually need to build commie blocks, they were pretty shittyalso what "inherent value" do different people have? is this just an excuse to talk about how much you hate brown people?
>>42761820Holy fuckIs the Queer epidemic finally going to dieIs transmaxxing deadIs theyfabbery uncool
>>42761820i dgaf about pronouns eitherjust want to be able to take hormones without being called the spawn of satan
>>42764348>communism isnt about everyone having exactly the same things, it is about not having different classesLol. What do you think the people living in the beach houses vs the people living in poverty boxes inland are? The """elimination of class"" requires everyone to have the same things. Same food, same cars, same houses. Otherwise you have classes.>also what "inherent value" do different people have?My reference was to objects not people. For example, a steak is higher value than gruel even if both had the same calories. Housing in a pleasant environment is more valuable than housing in a poor environment. Say, a balmy beach vs death valley. Even if they are the same square footage.Inherently different value in people is a long discussion but would likely involve IQ, physical and genetic fitness.
>>42764437you clearly do not understand class at all
Who gives af about pronouns? Stupid theyfabs?Gavin Newsom is damned based for this take. Just make the rest of America like California and we'll be fine.Though I'm sure some retarded leftist will have to scream in this chat the moment a Democrat is saying the things they totally agreed with yesterday.
>>42764443LOL.>the system of ordering a society in which people are divided into sets based on perceived social or economic status.You're telling me if I'm living in a beach house, eating filet mignon, driving a rolls royce I'm not higher class than you, who is living in a house next to the dump, eating gruel, driving a scooter?
>>42764482>consooming a different kind of goyslop and living in a more goy-enjoyable asthetic actually makes me better thsn you, troon!
>>42764502Literally yes. That is the definition of class.Are you 16 or something?
>>42764482read some marx desu do u really think thats what he defined class as
>>42764519>i am better than you because my idol Musky said i am!!!Are you 14?
>>42764536Marx was a failure and an asshurt faggot. He never actually defined what "class" was.If we attempt to go with "Bourgeoisie" those who own the means of production and "Proletariat" those who do not own the means of production this is a retarded definition. What of land owners? What of bureaucrats? And are we really to believe a 12 year old growing lemons and making lemonade to sell for 25 cents a cup is this terrible "Bourgeoisie" and the surgeon making $800k/yr is the poor downtrodden "Proletariat"? I mean, that 12 year old owns the means of production!>>42764553I have no particular thoughts about musk. Although SpaceX is great.
>>42764177>Are you pretending to not understand on purpose?no, i genuinely do not see how companies and capitalism are needed for all that labor to be performed.>Spoiler: there is no good answeri don't see where your unshakable confidence in this comes from other than 'well the soviet union sucked'. this mindset comes off as extremely defeatist to me, and i think if you want to claim a better world is literally impossible you're obligated to back that up.
>>42764715>I genuinely do not see how companies and capitalism are needed for all that labor to be performedI mean you could just force them to work for free at gun point lmao.>a better world is literally impossibleA "better world" would certainly not be communism. It was a moronic thought experiment rife with delusion and hand waving of objective reality.
>>42764461Yes! But remember; theyfabs are AFaBs, and that means if they cry, sob, yearn, accuse, or suffer... SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!
>>42764816>I mean you could just force them to work for free at gun point lmao.that's not an answer, anon. do you mean to say that capitalism is the only system in which people will voluntarily work? i mean, it's not really voluntary since you need to work for food and shelter under capitlism, but in theory at least.>A "better world" would certainly not be communism.i'm literally not a communist. i literally told you i don't know what the answer is. i just think the way things work under capitlism is broken and unjust, and for some reason that i still dont understand you seem to take offense at my hope that an economic system that is not broken and unjust can be achieved. i mean, even if what you're saying is true and we'll always be under the thumb of the owner class, and our society will never be able to move forward without the threat of hardship and pain hanging over the head of every human being on this planet, i don't understand why you seem completely comfortable with that??
Dude hasn't even won a single primary state and he is already conceding to republicans. What an utter embarrassment. Dems are so pathetic.
>>42764950>do you mean to say that capitalism is the only system in which people will voluntarily workEffectively, yes. Some hippie crap "dude man we all just like take what we need mannn and do what needs to be done mannn" only vaguely works in groups of like 20 people.I'll also note that "capitalism" is a word invented by commie retards to disparage the concept. Regardless, the base of capitalism is private ownership, profit motive, competition, and choices in a market economy.Basically, people own things. People make and sell things to gain a profit so as to afford more or better things. They compete in the market and against other choices. Frankly, this is basic economics and human nature. I raise chickens and try and raise the fattest chickens so people want my chickens. I trade my chickens for wood to build a house. I raised many high quality chickens. I now have a large, quality house, better than most. I have loads of chickens now, I need help. I hire others to help, pay them in chickens. They are happy.
>>42765034>muh human nature maaaaaankek
>>42764816unironically there has never been a communist utopia. Marx literally never described what communism was, it was a hypothetical good thing that comes after labor achieves power which has never ever happened.
>>42765044Yes. We are not robots. We have inherent hardwiring, motives and instincts.>>42765047>real communism has never been triedEvery time.
>>42765063we arent hardwired for capitalism, also u seem to be very resistant to learning anything about communism or marxism at all
>>42765063>>real communism has never been tried>Every time.It literally doesn't exist you retard. It literally DOES not exist. IT DOESNT FUCKING EXIST.
>>42765070>we arent hardwired for capitalismAs I explained, ""capitalism"" is just basic economics. The concept of owning things and making more things to trade for other things is rather unremarkable.
>>42765090but bartering is different from capitalism, there is no capital, just ppl exchanging commodities
>>42765090that isnt what capitalism is you fucking pseud
>>42765079>No! You don't understand, all those previous attempts were fake communism! If REAL communism was tried it would have been perfect ;_;
>>42765105what is communism?
>>42765100Bartering is just a method of exchange and is not mutually exclusive with capitalism. You can absolutely have bartering in a capitalistic framework. Just simply means you're bartering with the goal of acquiring more and better stuff. You don't need money for capitalism, money is just a more efficient way of trading.
>>42765111>a political theory derived from Karl Marx, advocating class war and leading to a society in which all property is publicly owned and each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs.Even the basic definition makes me laugh. It's so fucking stupid.
>>42765111the free association of producers and the abolition of generalised commodity production
>>42765165>>42765161both wrong, lmao. insanely based.
>>42765103he literally doesnt even understand what he's talking about, he's never even read anything about communism nor capitalism, his strategy is just asking questions then getting mad when someone gives him an answer
>>42765147>You can absolutely have bartering in a capitalistic framework.you can "have" it in the sense that it happens a nonzero number of times as an anomaly or a practice on the fringes of society. if barter is the dominant mode of exchange your society is not capitalist. the capitalist mode of production is not just "basic economics", it is not even just markets, it is a very specific thing.
>>42765179this is your brain on being a debate lord about books youve never read. magical.I'm not a communist btw. Just not a retard.
>>42765188the only debatelord here is u
>>42765184>you can "have" it in the sense that it happens a nonzero number of times as an anomaly or a practice on the fringes of society.Oh really, it's a crazy thought that someone would accumulate things (profit) via bartering? That's literally normal behavior. Why would you not attempt to accumulate "profit"?
>>42765177>heh, my double secret underground version of communism >it'll definitely work too!
>>42765034>Some hippie crap "dude man we all just like take what we need mannn and do what needs to be done mannn" only vaguely works in groups of like 20 people.i dont disagree with you, really. we live in a world with scarcity and labor is required for the continued wellbeing of our species. how about this: you make it legally required for able-bodied adults to have a job, BUT: there's not actually any punishment for not working. the government will just visit you and send you letters and connect you with jobs. and you'll still get your food and housing and medical and everything. but if you get a job you can probably get money to buy luxuries. is that so crazy?>the base of capitalism is private ownership, profit motive, competition, and choices in a market economy.i know? :p have u seen that post, i think it was on tumblr, thats like 'capitalists will just state the premise of capitalism and be shocked that you dont instantly agree with them'. you're doing it right now.>Frankly, this is basic economics and human nature.human nature???? are you on crack??? humans evolved living in small communal tribes. they did not have money, they cooperated and labored because they had to labor to survive. they shared the fruits of their labor with their community, and it was all pretty chill. that constitutes the VAST majority of our species' history. economic systems only emerged as humans figured out agriculture and our population exploded. i'm not sure how far back this goes historically, but i'm told that we've gone from feudalism, which was just miserable, to capitalism, which is slightly less miserable. my understanding is that capitalism has actually existed for far less time than feudalism ever did. to call it HUMAN NATURE is like. unbelievably insane. this attitude of inevitability is so bizarre to me, i don't see where these convictions come from. seriously, can you explain this to me? what do you understand that i dont?
>>42761867Even if a democrat doesn't lead in 2028, I think it's literally going to be fine if Vance mans the helm. He's a repressing boymoder just as much as Trump doesn't actually give a fuck about trans people. They're only de-federalizing civil protections across the nation in order to minimally keep themselves accountable to the braindead magatards of the republican party. The capitalists are already doing everything they can to maintain political hypocrisy among the communist black queens and conservative tradcucks; who both use amazon and browse for oracle servers all day. With this fiscal accountability, the moldbug-patchwork praxis (google it) that they're implementing will already make enough space for trans people to exist in order to keep a differentiated economy. So even then, out of this "economic war", it wouldn't be enough of a feasible surplus to reduce everyone to a singular political domain. Nor would it be enough for a capitalist economy to keep itself structured under a cultural unity and only serve a very specific set of things, because its already deeply in its nature that it'll provide excess for enjoyment with no utility. Even if some states are doing terrible shit, the existence of trans people isn't threatened by the republican party on the nationalistic level whatsoever; there are already safe spaces for them to exit towards to this day, and I don't think it'll disappear anytime soon.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3iJO7G05Y0
>>42765255oh, and there'll have to be tons of propaganda in schools and shit about how you have to work a job for the betterment of society and how its legally required and make up some bullshit fines nobody will ever actually receive to scare ppl out of being unemployed. easy!
>>42761820Can we collectively stop with the pronoun bullshit? My pronouns dont mean a fucking thing when I can't get a passport that matches my documents Earn your pronouns by passing well enough
>>42765177im literally correct you brainrotted trot you have no idea what your talking about and should cease pouring your idiot ideas into the collective unconscious, read a fucking book before you speak.>At a definite stage of economic development, which necessarily involved the cleavage of society into classes, the state became a necessity because of this cleavage. We are now rapidly approaching a stage in the development of production at which the existence of these classes has not only ceased to be a necessity, butbecomes a positive hindrance to production. They will fall as inevitably as they once arose. The state inevitably falls with them. The society which organizes production anew on the basis of free and equal association of the producers will put the whole state machinery where it will then belong–into the museum of antiquities, next to the spinning wheel and the bronze ax.
>>42765255You don't need money for capitalism.>humans evolved living in small communal tribes.And people accumulated things, capital, in those tribes. And strove to accumulate more things.
>>42765255>i'm not sure how far back this goes historically, but i'm told that we've gone from feudalism, which was just miserable, to capitalism, which is slightly less miserable.If you situate production to an immanent principle of energy, excess-energy and waste, then it already goes back further in an evolutionary way. There would be too much resistance from simply serving each other according to our immediate needs; no organism has ever functioned solely out of immediate need, there is still an element of storage and expenditure of energy. If we situate industrialization as something that not only produces things, but is also itself produced by the nature of human beings and its predecessors, then the economy is already both natural and irrational to begin with. The other anon you were talking to was kind of already right that human nature could be applied to our contemporary economics.
>>42765255>how about this: you make it legally required for able-bodied adults to have a job, BUT: there's not actually any punishment for not working. the government will just visit you and send you letters and connect you with jobs. and you'll still get your food and housing and medical and everythingWhy do you deserve those things when you provide nothing in return? The rest of society owes you their labor?
>>42765300>And people accumulated things, capital, in those tribes. And strove to accumulate more things.they did not. they shared. i mean, people obviously had some personal possessions, but to call that capitalism seems like a stretch to say the least? the overall system of labor did not depend on any form of exchange.
>>42765310dude im not like making this up this is literally like what we know from archaeology?? humans literally evolved to cooperate, that's why we got smart: because working in close social groups and navigating complicated social bonds takes a big brain! fun fact: thats why ravens are so smart. they too have tight social bonds and developed forms of communication.
>>42765315i don't believe in the concept of people 'deserving' things.
>>42765315>Why do you deserve those things when you provide nothing in return?Do "owners" of things provide any rational benefit to society?
>>42765319>but to call that capitalism seems like a stretch to say the least?You only think that because automatically adding extra things onto capitalism, when really in its most basal form is not especially remarkable.
>>42765385i mean if you want to make up a definition in which having a single personal possession to your name constitutes capitalism then thats your prerogative, and yeah, i guess they would be capitalists under that definition, but i think thats a bit silly.
>>42765380Yes.>>42765347Great. Then you deserve nothing, will receive nothing. And only get what you earn. >>42765341>humans literally evolved to cooperateSure. Accumulating stuff and trading for more stuff doesn't stop cooperation.
>>42765397>yesWhat benefit, exactly? Raping the average while telling them it's their fault?
>>42765394Well no, it's capitalism when you're gathering stuff and at least part of the point of the accumulation is getting more or better stuff. Private property alone isn't quite enough.
>>42765397>And only get what you earn.Billiotards never earned a thing in their life doe. They maybe earned a rope.
>>42761867Imagine identifying as a democrat kys
>>42765341Exactly. I was approaching it over here from reading philosophy. Especially with capitalism as well, those who know how to navigate the complex economy already knew exactly what cards to play because they're the very successors that system has rewarded, like the intelligent ravens and humans among their species. I think America has already pretty much done away with its traditionalist antics since 2001/2008, I feel like it's only become illusory in a way. Conservatives just aren't to be taken seriously at this point because they both call for traditionalism while also aiming for technological development, I think they're already fundamentally progressive without realizing it.
>>42765408I was more referring to all of people it took to provide your ""free"" food, ""free"" housing, and ""free"" medical care."He who does not work shall not eat".
>>42765426>Conservatives just aren't to be taken seriously at this point because they both call for traditionalism while also aiming for technological development, I think they're already fundamentally progressive without realizing it.I realized one of the quotes of Kaczynski invaded my brain while I was typing this out lol
>>42765431im all for it desu, conservatives are historically progressive sometimes and in america they most definitely are
>>42765414>Billiotards never earned a thing in their life doe.They probably objectively did. By the way, did you know Marx never worked a day in his life? He was born into money and when he grew up he begged his family and Engels for money his whole life.
>>42765428Still applies to billiotards infinitely more than to muh jobless>i-i deserve to financially rape you because i was born into a family of financial rapists or somethingThere was a reason why stalin executed "economists"
>>42765451>They probably objectively didThey probably objectively did not
>>42765397>Then you deserve nothing, will receive nothing.thats an idea! but i think i'd prefer my idea, where no one is homeless, or starving, or unable to access medicine.>Accumulating stuff and trading for more stuffi have to stop you there! they didnt have a barter economy, thats my point: they literally just shared. maybe certain groups would barter with each other, but within the group the people who hunted just went and hunted, and brought back food for the others who were doing other work for the group while they were away. you, or maybe it was another anon, mentioned that communes only work with like 20 people. well funnily enough, as i understand it, thatd be a pretty typical size for one of these early human groups!
>>42765410i could really use a definition of stuff right now.
>>42765490Stuff = things = cocks
>>42765580they just shared anon. i dont understand whats so complicated here.
>>42765610They shared and also accumulated and traded and got many more cocks.The meaning of life is cocks. This is why pooners are so depressed.
>>42765639thanks for your insight anon.
>>42765649Yw bby.
>>42765674so should i understand this as you giving up?
>>42765249>Why would you not attempt to accumulate "profit"?because you don't have a way to easily convert that profit to power when it's all in the form of goods that men with weapons can easily seize from youyou need money (among many other conditions) for merchants to become a serious class that can rival the power of the aristocracy (the guys whose power comes from commanding the men with weapons). even then, you're still in the feudal mode of production.you're only in the capitalist mode of production once the merchants eclipse the aristocracy
>>42765722I'm just going to bed. Sharing isn't mutually exclusive with accumulating and "trading up".>>42765764You're adding all this extra stuff. You don't need to be the Lord of all to be performing capitalism. Just a meager accumulation of humble things and getting better or more things with that is sufficient.
>>42765791>I'm just going to bed.oh, thats fair enough. goodnight chuddy. consider whether a better world is physically possible, and sleep well.
>>42761954trvkeliterally no one gave a shit about transpeople until they started pushing for visibility.
>>42765397>>humans literally evolved to cooperate>Sure. Accumulating stuff and trading for more stuff doesn't stop cooperationYou're still creating this ambiguous line between the evolution of our species and capitalism, they're both intricately connected.For capitalism: Accumulation of capital only stops cooperation in certain ways, where the direct utility of labor recognizes enough potential differentiated capital, so that labor is required to differentiate itself in order to seize more capital. Cooperation only gets jammed for a moment during these developments, but it always eventually starts going about its business and moves forward. It's not the kind of thing where all forms of cooperation ceases to exist, capitalism itself wouldn't exist without cooperating to seize more production.As for living things with their evolution of cooperation, the same thing pretty much applies here. Genes and traumas are modified for their the species' survivability, so that there is more efficiency with seizing an energetic surplus to therefore maintain their presence in the world. Developmental economies have many similar processes to that of evolution; new commodities and new species are produced precisely under the seizure of capital and of energy.
>>42761820"Culturally normal" as if they were that committed to trans people to start with. No, they were always ready to throw trans and gay people under the bus. They act like begging for fucking votes from trans people was somehow this big sacrifice.They'll never be concerned about being "culturally normal" or less insane when it comes to racial issues, however.
>>42765987these are all nice thoughts anon, but like i said, i am not just theorizing. it is like a scientific fact that humans evolved living in small groups where individuals labored for the good of the group and shared the fruits of their labor with each other. obviously capitalism also involves cooperation, maybe that's not the word i should have used there, but they were not capitalistic.
