Is it literally just about physical sex and nothing else? I feel like yes, as a trans lady I would reasonably be a different category of woman, but that doesn't make me any less real. I feel deeply wrong about being a man and I'm too soft and small to be reasonably accused of as such. I really don't get it, why whether or not I'm a real woman is in the eye of the beholder. Even if I wasn't, I'm still not a man. Do you think society will ever let go of the binary and realize what a limiting falsethink that is? I ascribe to the binary in many ways but still acknowledge nonbinary people as legitimate and unable to fit in either box of man or woman. Also at the end of the day, what's wrong with feminized males? Can't they just be their own subcategory too and not have to participate in the stupid male hierarchy bullshit? There's just so much expectations from every direction sighhh
>>42962590nona do you read any feminist theory? i think the answers you're looking for can be found in wittig, de beuvoir, etc. you may find yourself in their pages. these are women who are very concerned with exactly the kinds of questions you're asking, and they have insights that i find very beneficial
>>42962751I haven't yet actually, but that might be a good place to start. Anything specific you would recommend?
>>42962778˝the second sex" is foundational, if you want to get into it, if you don't read a lot it may be dense so be patient with yourself. if you want a launching point that's more modern, trans/rad/fem is a book from 2025, and is a great place to find references to the history of feminism while remaining relevant to the here and now. despite what terfs will have you believe, radical feminism actually makes crucial inquiries into topics deeply relevant to trans women. i hope it isn't too poor taste to quote halimede here : "trans women are the women of women"
>>42962869I've heard of that book actually so maybe I'll find it online soon. I think I've heard more criticism against feminism rather than having actually engaged with it myself, so it's probably good I do a little homework and maybe find more confidence in my existence through that. Thank you and I appreciate the tongue in cheek humor lolol
>>42962964good luck nona !!! <3
>>42962590>Also at the end of the day, what's wrong with feminized males? Can't they just be their own subcategory too and not have to participate in the stupid male hierarchy bullshit? The world hates all feminine people. The question is if the root of that hatred stems from women or from men. There's always that angle of punishment, or apology, or degradation. And feminists will never get or even try to get what it's like to be a feminine male. They're literally the ones manufacturing the hierarchy like with the fucking fujos.
>>42963307Can you elaborate on what you mean by feminists manufacturing the hierarchy? I've lived presenting as a feminine male but it was pretty much accepted where I live so it never gave me any issue before I came out. I think the hatred likely stems from men because they're the ones historically in power and consistently frame masculinity as this ultimate power over everything and that anything otherwise is weak and lesser, but I don't really understand that at all. I think men should be feminine if they so desire, it shouldn't be this huge deal.
ITT nona asks an innocent philosophical questoon and gets feminist ideology as a response. Pure fucking cancer.
>>42963771I'm honestly still open to whatever else anyone has to say :)
>>42963307>manufacturingyou're conflating their participation, something they need no work to do, and actually producing the entirety of a social narrative and structure. They're not "the cause", that's ridiculous and reductive
>>42963771philosophical question; philosophical answerstop pretending that when you say "feminist" you're using a pejorative, you sound silly
did you try comparing holes in the body between ganders (2)? the difference is literally 1 hole
>>42963860show me where the holes are, anon
>>42963822oh look at you becoming the definitoon of insufferable. just keep on being subborn and obstinate, im sure somebody somewhere will find it endearing.
>>42963965i dont educate retards on the internet sorry
>>42964344Based
>>42963771>>42964051>questoon>definitoonwhat is happening
>>42964344btfo
>>42962590I think it's just physical sex. The rest is just fluff that I don't understand.In all the years I've spent trying to figure this shit out, I've never been able to establish what gender even is. It feels like without that, there's no point trying to understand.
>>42965312I'm not sure if a lack of understanding is a good way to form a conclusion. To normies though, it seems like it's pretty much just about physical characteristics and how you carry yourself rather than anything else, because most people can't be bothered to think too deeply about it. That’s why when we take hrt, we become closer to the desired sex and hopefully respected as such eventually... Being able to function as a person first with the correct hormones is first priority though imo, worrying about passing as the desired sex or gender comes later
>>42965312It's awful. Not agreeing with so many societal roles, and yet at the same time not being able to see yourself as anything else
>>42962590its your soul and you can tell when a tranny doesnt have a female soul
>>42962590>different category of womanSo not one.
>>42966683In respects to the self, I agree, but in respects to society it doesn't matter what your soul is like if they aren't your friends. People usually perceive me as this androgynous thing until they get to know me, like there's always this uncertainty when I'm talking to strangers that aren't other trannies.
>>42966706so what, do you think a "not woman" has the same power and standing as any other man?
it's a concept, man and women don't exist. our biology and environment drive our behaviors. humans came up with these categories from our primitive beginnings. people in the woman category were treated as an inferior servile class because their biology makes them physically weaker. even in cultures with people with lower sexual dimorphism went in this direction. the roles for women were concerned with lowly tasks that pleased the men who claimed ownership of them. physical sex is the only aspect that is tangible. if humans continue to embrace individual freedom then at some point the distinction won't matter, only what we call femininity and masculinity may remain.
>>42967216The normies cling onto this concept like it is a tangible thing though, so even if I do take cross sex hormones and effectively am a woman physically, being physically weaker and everything, people who are uninformed or have ill intent would still insist I'm a man. There's just no logic to it.
>>42962590objectively it is being born female, but societally it is undergoing female socialization and having certain roles ascribed to you because of your assigned sex.people describe gender as a social construct that varies by culture, which is true, but gender is distinctly connected to sex in that it is the non-biological set of traits and characteristics that are associated with each sex. ie: if you're born female, you're going to be given "girl" things to do, like playing with dolls, being taught to be dainty and feminine, etc.simone de beauvoir talks about this concept in the second sex
>>42962590>mtfs (and sometimes their chaser orbiters) will try to define the term in such a way that it includes them>transphobes and /pol/ tourists will attempt to define the term in such a way that is excludes the group abovethat's how these threads always progress, every. single. damn. time.
>>42967467I actually downloaded the a pdf of that book today and started reading, so far very interesting, so I might continue reading on my laptop for a while and maybe see if I can find it at a library near me or something.I wish people would also universally just accept it as a social construct and that if you're willing to ascribe to the role of the opposite sex that it should be no big deal so long as you're always communicating with others if you're intimate with them or whatever. Like if you are just way better at being a girl, why not just be allowed to fill that role because otherwise you would make a pitiful man right? I'm sure there's more insights on that as well, the introduction is pretty long and I like that.
>>42962590It's all about chromosomes imo (lineages), but that doesn't invalidate your transition
>>42962590the problem is that trannies nowadays have largely abandoned the "sex and gender are different things" framework they used to get the public on board with the trans rights movement in the first place. a lot of people on this board are too young to remember and will try to gaslight me, but i remember being taught this clearly and going "oh okay that makes sense". now trannies assert "no i am biologically female now as a result of taking estrogen" and that's where people start to get tripped up (because it's provably false).
>>42968278Right, I'm actually gen z but I tend to be a little old school about a lot of things probably due to my upbringing or whatever. Saying sex and gender are the same thing is literally trying to reverse time, like yes I was born the male sex but I still transitioned to be a woman, it's unfortunate I'll never be a biological woman bu that's just reality. Still, it doesn't mean I shouldn't be treated as such. It's understandable that not everyone will be into me sexually or romantically or whatever, that's just reality too. (though I already have a date, I'm just talking on a broader level)
>>42962590Woman = adult human female. Thats why trans people hate when real women look butch because they don’t have to adhere to femininity and they’re still women unlike trans women who are just men
>>42968278The infusion of weirdos and "everyone is valid" has caused this.>>42968324Based. Ygmi.Find love, nona. Live life.
>>42962590playing definitions is a pointless game since there are no ultimate basic definitions, so there is nothing about scientific/physical/conceptual modeling that refers to a fixed base case that stands on its ownanother issue is that if u set a definition to be this one property then it becomes brittle to exceptions that don't match the definition exactlyfor the first issue, two main approaches are (1) shut up and don't think about it too much just do science as we learned it, and (2) it's all socially constructed, both which have issuesthe second can be resolved using an approach similar to homeostatic property clusters, just define a cluster of properties that are regularly stable together which makes the clustering itself the phenomena which is robust to exceptions additionally, rather than binary think of it as mutually divergent trajectories, borrowing some ideas from merleau-pontythat way u can wrap it up in work by ppl like de beauvoir and iragary, but use it in the modern enactive framework originated 35ish years ago by biologists and philosophers of mind since it's a relational ontology u can describe things like mutual divergence w/o clinging on to bankrupt ideas like there are 'fixed substances' that define things or wishy washy 'social construction' as purely abstractread de beauvoir, but also read iragary, merleau-ponty, and thompson & varela at the very leastthen u get this answer: when a person's sex-typical properties (overall) diverge in the direction of the female trajectory, they're a woman, biologically so, even on an organism level
>>42968278that's not the case and extremely revisionist, it was the other way aroundprior to ppl forcing sex and gender differences they were called transsexuals cos they changed their sexthe push to separation happened due to nonops not wanting to change 'sex' and certain feminists wanting to find a way to exclude the thread of trans ppl prior to that ppl would ask if they could give birth after a 'sex change'
>>42968640I do need to get over the binary way of thinking honestly, it just feels so limiting. It just feels like it's inaccessible to people at times, but at this rate I'm too introspective to not be in this deep and I'm dating someone who is nonbinary, they understand gender from a different sort of view but I feel like a straight-forward pragmatist in my approach to the world, so your answer pleases me in that way. I'll write down those names in my notes and if you have any books to start with for those authors, I'll find those too :)
>>42968816here u and others can also listen to friston give cliff notes on his enjoyment of enactivism, defining everything by relations and interactions, as opposed to fixed states/definitionshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HW0JnjgCO3ojust tell urself 'this is basically lived experience' every few seconds
>>42969017what are thompson and varela's full names btw?
>>42969105please dont response to umaru
>>42969105evan thompson and francisco varela
>>42969145Thank you! Also the video kind of touched upon things I have already thought about; You are your actions, everything one does is a reflection of their self (with caveats of course). What you do around others defines who you are in their view, i.e. your actions go toward your environment/social life and those will act to you accordingly
>>42969202yes, that's what drew me to that framework too, but it goes much deeperwhen u start to take it seriously then the person and the environment are co-constitutive, so u alter the environment and the environment alters uand it goes up from a single cell's interactions to meet its metabolic needs to an individual's actions, and even the clothes u wear (to some degree) will have a "shaping" effect on a person's biology, influencing the basis of future affordances/action opportunities learning to play an instrument is another good example, demonstrating that it is not a matter of thought, as u get better u think about it less, the skill has become embodied, and therefore u are now such a body that can play the instrument u can basically reframe most feminism and critical theories in this sense too, which a lot of feminists are now doing to resolve issues w/ social constructivismthe implications for sex and gender are interesting and also different to butler and the concept of performativity in some key ways
>>42968278the people who were "on board" want you to be like that buck angel guy and constantly post/talk about how you're female and a woman no matter whatlike why exactly should trannies go to the mens bathroom? it's only because their safety is valued much much less than that of women'sand what about sports? like none of them compete and they're never the best, so actual cis women are still mogging themi just don't see any real issue besides that they're ugly
