>>42970413
since in general ppl aren't talking about the same thing, they talk cross purposes and get frustrated
in general research that is even supportive of nb cohorts tends to show that highly normative expressions of sex and gender are embedded in self-ascribed nb identities, whereas there is no single cluster of population w/ attributes that can be defined as 'nb' that defies binary classification in many cases
in that way it's not that they're not real, but they're also no truly distinct from those to whom the binary classification applies or who self-apply it
one of the arguments among some advocates, and perhaps earlier advocates of nb as a movement, state something close to the fact that the binary classification itself ought to be abandoned, in such a way it's not really a true division between binary vs non-binary
I've read other pro-nb articles that tend to state things like while 'binary' trans tend to express more gnc attributes that nb, that indicates that 'binary' trans must work to create greater space and acceptance for nb ppl, which is a bit of a strange take especially given how the attack (which came years after that article, to be clear) has predominantly been targeted on medically transitioning trans ppl and mostly trans women
another issue that arises from the social media trend of nb is the false dichotomy between 'binary transition' and nb identities, as there is really nothing that ought to prevent a trans woman from medically transitioning towards female and then adopting an nb identity, but the presumption is more often than not that her identity must be 'binary', and that presumption is also often pushed by self-professed nb ppl on social media
so it's really a mess of a discourse right now...
hope that helps

>>42971573
>there is really nothing that ought to prevent a trans woman from medically transitioning towards female and then adopting an nb identity, but the presumption is more often than not that her identity must be 'binary'
how is that a presumption when binary trans women are the ones who self-identify as binary? It is ironic tho that binary trannies are some of the most genderfreaky people out there but they self-identify as the most real women to ever woman

>>42970413
This is the opposite of how it goes. In reality its
>Nb makes a post seeking validation
>4chan is 4chan
>Nb has an autistic meltdown and starts saying transphobic chuddy shit out of anger
>Nb leaves feeling owo so oppressed by mean troons (which was the point i guess?)

>>42971682
>I'm allowed to say chuddy things about nb but you are not allowed to say chuddy things about trannies
oh is that how 4chan works sorry im new here

>>42971663
since it's about enforcing the stereotypes and expectations they must meet, which then even nb ppl on social media contribute towards
also ur conception that they're genderfreaky and questioning them on the basis of claiming to be the most woman to woman, also indicates that u reinforce this 'binary' as well
so like I said it's about pll talking cross purposes, and also perpetuating these tensions and presumptions
for the general position to be more acceptable to the broader community I think it will need to give them space to find acceptance in society as women while then being able to paradoxically reject binary gender classification and still be their target sex/gender
for that u will probs have to say that medical trans ppl medically transition their sex or something along those lines

>>42971702
Honey there are like 10 chuddy trolls to every 1 fren. If you make a post you should expect that and only interact with the nice ones. If you are mean because they are mean then its now 11 chuds to 1 fren

>>42971730
>it's about enforcing the stereotypes and expectations they must meet
And if these bad enbies are actually much better than binary trannies at matching the stereotypes then it becomes very clear that binary trabnies hate enbies because they are jealous of something really dumb

>>42970413
Nonbinary people don't exist.

People might call themselves nonbinary but that's meaningless in determining whether they actually materially exist. People claim all kinds of ludicrous shit.

>>42971794
like men claiming to be women. Back in my day we used to laugh at those perverts!

>>42971803
Yeah. And?

>>42971777
sort of, but again it's about talking cross purposes
if u say that both are moving along the same axis then u quickly start implying or directly opposing them, making them incompatible
in response to that they will say the scientific and medical evidence shows the phenomenon exists, and since nb is in opposition, therefore nb does not exist and necessarily cannot exist
that stems from misunderstanding and treating them like discrete bands on one axis w/ two discrete binary poles (i.e., a spectrum) for which there is no real evidence or theory to support such an assumption
if nb is on a separate axis of gender or gender expression then everything can be resolved

>>42971807
You want more?

>>42971777
Most trannies are kinda enbyish

>>42971811
and the same scientific evidence they would cite to prove binary trans people exist, would show them in the middle part between the two poles rathen than heavily to one side of the binary... curious!

>>42971829
trannies arent real confirmed

>>42971814
Not really.

>>42971863
Good because that's all I got bro

>>42971829
Every human being on the planet is "kinda enbyish", that's why it's a stupid fucking category.

No one perfectly adheres to a single gender role. Everyone is a mix of masculine and feminine. Pretending it's a brand new category of person is stupid.

>>42971876
That's because you're conflating gender identity with gender expression

>>42971876
If that's really true then every person on the planet would be happier if they stopped trying to fit themselves and others into two rigid categories but for some reason you don't want to stop

>>42970413
Aren't you Prisonmeat anon?

>>42971886
No actually I think it would be great if that stopped

>>42971879
Meaningless distinction.

>>42970413
The non-binary meme is dying because it’s cringe and overplayed

>>42971898
I agree but the two of us are outliers. Still doesn't explain why the rest of the world disagrees. Most people don't need much forcing to be their gender, it just works out for them, and then you have people who won't conform with any amount of force. So I just don't believe this idea that everyone is dealing with the same struggle or whatever

>>42971937
This is more a result of conformity to social norms being a survival mechanism for our species, one that predates and overrides more complex cultural apparatus like gender. Some people internalize the idea of being nonconformist for whatever reason, and that gets expressed through more sophisticated social mechanisms like gender. But if most people truly didn't care about fitting in, gender roles would be abandoned.

>>42971906
It's not. Even in this board you constantly see trannies complaining about their lack of feminity, yet they still transitioned

>>42971997
Gender is an external experience. They don't want to be more feminine. They want the world to perceive them more feminine. There is no "internal" femininity.

>>42972053
You can identify however you want, how does that stop people from identifying you for what you are

>>42972053
Nta but this is not true. I transitioned for dysphoria knowing I wouldnt pass and would never be perceived as a woman. I was surprised by the psychological effects it has. You perceived things like emotion differently which leads you to have a different perspective i.e. a women perspective. I can understand women so much better now that i chemically match them.

>>42972121
It doesn't. That's why gender is an external phenomenon. Not an internal one.

>>42972137
Understand long women is not the same as being a woman.

>>42972188
So it’s baseless and nonsensical. Got it. I guess fairygender, autism gender and Dino gender are all valid to you

>>42972199
Nope.

>>42972214
Non-binary is so forced. Just stop the cap already it’s cringe

>>42972219
You're right, it is forced. I dislike cringe nonbinary bullshit. I'm not sure what point you think you're arguing with.

>>42971876
i'm an enby, allow me to correct you.
>Every human being on the planet is "kinda enbyish", that's why it's a stupid fucking category.
no, cis people don't get gender dysphoria from being the gender of their AGAB. i can't speak for others who call themselves enby, but i get gender dysphoria from both he/him and she/her, both feel wrong, but i am so used to it and powerless that i have to resign myself to caring and instead refocus my attention to things i can control. the pronoun thing is just one example of how i can get dysphoria from both genders, so a clearcut binary transition to female is not a solution for me. yes it solves the masculine dysphoria but it's replaced with mtf dysphoria. what do i do about that? if you don't have a solution, you are just like terfs and transphobes who have no solution for mtf dysphoria. here's an example. my natural voice is androgynous. sometimes it's high pitched and fem on its own and i like that, other times it's deeper on its own and i like that too. but having to talk deeper to fit in with guys and not let my high pitched voice feels awful, and having to voice train for an mtf transition feels wrong too. cis and binary trans people aren't like this.
>No one perfectly adheres to a single gender role. Everyone is a mix of masculine and feminine. Pretending it's a brand new category of person is stupid.
the difference is that cis people enjoy inhabiting their AGAB.

>>42972194
Your cringe neo-slang is just compartmentalization. Gender has many types of definitions depending on the context and so is suspectable to rhetorical gymnastics but biological feedback mechanisms effecting a measurable behavioral difference that is experimentally verifiable is not.

>>42972300
uhh hon u can't have gender dysphoria for both u have to pick one and pretend like it makes u happy thats what the revised trans-inclusive bible says

>>42972380
lol
unironically that's their argument and how many of them are actually living which is sad

i guess for many secretly nonbinary mtfs the masculine dysphoria is worse than the feminine since masculinity and testosterone cause more pronounced effects. so they compromise because the choice is between 1) living as man with masculine dysphoria which is hell 2) living as mtf without masculine dysphoria, but feminine dysphoria which is more negotiable, and if they have passing privilege they avert GNC friction, the striving for passing also provides purpose and meaning to life. 3) living as nonbinary, which alleviates internal dysphoria but exposes to the most GNC friction

>>42971830
that is not the case and a gross misrepresentation of the evidence, as some samples could only be collected post-mortem
the only way to deny it is by denying that trans does not exist, but that nb does exist and saying the evidence later will show it is so, which is something unproven and both behavioral evidence and self-reports demonstrate the cohort is different
anon is right tho, if u revert to chud talking points then of course ppl will defend against it

>>42972300
You're not enby because it's not something that exists. What you call "dysphoria" is untreated mental illness. You probably have BPD and a pathological need to be the most special person in the room.

>>42972300
>natural voice is androgynous. sometimes it's high pitched and fem on its own and i like that, other times it's deeper on its own and i like that too
>NB discovers natural human octave range, thinks he is unique to science

>>42975296
i am enby and i exist, sorry not sorry to burst your bubble lmao
>What you call "dysphoria" is untreated mental illness.
actually it's treated with hrt
>You probably have BPD and a pathological need to be the most special person in the room.
literally you? i don't care about that at all, i came in here, an enby thread on /tttt/, to talk about my experience as an enby. why are you in here if that threatens you? refer to the first 2 lines of this thread
>>42975307
any argument you make against me can be used by anyone else against any trans person. i've made my peace and the choice to hate enbies is yours

>>42972121
This

>>42972300
>i get gender dysphoria from both he/him and she/her, both feel wrong,
See this is where I get the ick from enbies.

For me the pronouns don't cause dysphoria. The dysphoria WAS caused by me living as the gender I wasn't. It was just a nightmare of stress and rage and pain that never ended.

But they're saying he/him is because I'm this ugly gross ogrehon. They're pointing out how ugly I am. If an ugly cis woman get's he/him'd, she gets even more offended than I do, because I'm used to it because I'm trans.

But for enbies it's the obsession with pronouns that makes me question you. At the very least your dysphoria is not like mine. I am so afraid of dysphoria that if my transition is not successful I fully intend to take my own life. Where for you it just seems to be a personality quirk.

I'm not trying to invalidate you here, I'm trying to explain how you appear from my perspective.

>>42972300
there was a study about 10 years ago that looked at the criteria for gender dysphoria and showed that a significant portion of the general population showed some signs of it
in both the trans case and the nb case, it is incorrect to say that they cannot experience any gender dysphoria as it is defined