New scientific research optics nuke dropped?https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/apa.70533>Among adolescents who underwent medical gender reassignment, psychiatric morbidity increased markedly during follow-up—rising from 9.8% to 60.7% in feminising gender reassignment and from 21.6%Of course this doesn't directly control the mental health, it could be that trannies just avoid getting to a psych before getting HRT because of stigma and stuff but I don't think conservatives are going to read this like that.
More people are doing something it wasn't meant for them, and they don't handle it too well. Maybe don't support the idea that it's all safe and anyone can do it, and instead advise more caution?
>>43163488I'm actually crazy tho
>>43163488Today I learned I'm a youth transitioner. What a worthless study
>People from the 90s to today ask for pychiatric help when dealing with dysphoria and the process of transitioningWow what an amazing study
>>43163488Serious answer, it makes complete sense that becoming part of a highly visible and reviled minority group would lead to mental health problems. That's not surprising. What's actually relevant is not the number of diagnoses but the subjective level of distress before and after transition
>>43163488>youth transitioner>under 23
>>43163495Maybe, pushback will probably just lead to more DIY though.>>43163518I agree with you, just feel like it will look bad in many people's eyes
I dunno, personally, I'm quite happy since trooning out. Then again, I like what I see in the mirror... I'm sure that's a pretty big advantage.
>>43163488Being insane is based.I want to get crazier and ascend to raving lunaticScrew your optic, I'm going in
>>43163488>Findings emphasize the need for thorough psyciatric assessment and ongoing treatment throughout medical gender reassignmentDuh?
>>43163526>>43163506Yeah, pretty sure it has to do with Finland just legally having a higher treatment urgency for people under 23 so it's an easy cut-off choice
>>43163526Blanchard used to consider under 25 youngshit. Just shows how much things have changed since the 90s>>43163527>will look bad in many people's eyesyeah but the people who are motivated to act against us already have all the material they could want. They'll cite the Swedish study just like they did ten years ago, if they cite anything at all. This is just a drop in the bucket
>>43163541Didn't know Finland was based like that
>>43163544I guess, maybe I'm biased because it's actually coming from here so it seems big to me. In particular that part with psychiatric assessments increasing like sixfold after transition.>>43163550Doesn't necessarily mean much. They also gatekeep those under 23 harder, their wait times at the clinic are just shorter.
>>43163561Might be big in Finland. Doubt that it'll make waves beyond that
>>43163488How could the number of controls ever referred for psychiatric treatment GO DOWN two years later?
>>43163568Yeah I could see that, granted I only saw it on xitter posted by some terfies that are not Finnish
>>43163488>oh dear we made the trannies talk to psychiatrists and they diagnosed them with stuff so they could have a job>now let's compare them to controls who were never made to talk to psychiatrists
>>43163575because it's before vs after a certain date, not ever
>>43163576Xitter terfs are like the most committed to hating trannies out of any group. Of course they'll talk about it. When you look at the people who actually do consequentially bad stuff for us though, like american Republicans, they never cite anything other than personal disgust. This is just for bigotry nerds to circlejerk over
>>43163488>increased markedlyInteresting that they do not use the scientific term "significant" which requires statistical significance at at least 95%... If they had the results, why not show them?
>>43163583Fr though, mental health was completely taboo in my family until I trooned, I would have never went to a psych and got diagnosed with other conditions otherwise
>>43163488>psychiatric morbidity increased markedly during follow-up—rising from 9.8% to 60.7% in feminising gender reassignmentShit like this is why chasers don't want srsoids. It's more than just the lack of a cock or a vagina.
>>43163488This is unsurprising given just how terrible the Finnish healthcare system is for trannies. You're more likely to just be shoved in front of a psych simply for being trans.
>>43163488And here’s the actual part of the data that matters.Both untreated and treated have higher mental problems because that goes with the territory, but for ftms they have a drastically lower rate of mental problems if they’re medically treated over time compared to if they aren’t. For mtts, they have more mental problems if medically treated than if not medically treated over time.
>>43163583Is that what's happening in the study? Comparing to general population? The way I read it, it says morbidity increased within the group compared to before transition
>>43163646>mtt
>>43163653It's just whether someone received psychiatric treatment or not, basically. Which is based on referrals from other providers.It's basically a worthless study. People who have to be embedded in a system to receive care in a system that utterly loathes them are going to be treated like garbage. It's institutional inertia, basically.
>>43163653morbidity just means being unhealthy, which could be anything in relation to mental health
>>43163646FtMs were trutrans all along! Or maybe it's just harder to get treatment at all if you're male, control males psychiatric treatment also fell down lol
>The Population Information System provided four male and four female controls, matched for birth year and municipality of birth for each gender-referred individual. The index date of the gender-referred person was assigned to all controls.am i retarded or did they just really pick 4 controls?
>>43163488>People who are distressed enough to seek professionals for a condition known for having high comorbidities have higher comorbidities then people who dont have that condition. Fascinating. Ground breaking. >The study doesnt seperate patients into groups of those with dysphoria+hrt and those with dysphoria+unmedicated so no meaningful conclusion can be made about the effectiveness of relief Wow its almost like this paper didnt back up its claim. How surprising
>>4316348880% of the data stopped follow-up at 3 years in 2022. Someone that started in Finland 3 years ago is still having mandatory transpoli psych appointments to get approvals for surgery.This is academic fraud. They stopped follow-up at 3 years so that they could pretend still being in transpoli hell was psychiatric treatment.They also didn’t stop tracking for earlier dates, so it isn’t “everyone at 3 years follow-up”, it’s “everyone at some random follow-up date between 3 and 20+ years” which is garbage data. This shows up in the index year hazing a hazard ratio of 1.7 which is retarded and should have made them notice and fix it.Who funded this?
so... all of this is about contacts. Not diagnoses, not severity, contacts
>>43163768>controls n=1488Am I schizo or…?
We should have a mob to assassinate these types of fraudsters
>Need for specialist-level psychiatric treatment before the index contact (yes/no) and thereafter (yes/no) was recorded. Psychiatric treatment, excluding gender identity assessments and appointments with a multi-disciplinary team therein, subsequent to the index contact was defined as continuing two years or more after the index contact, to allow time for the gender identity assessment and potential medical GR initiation. The number of contacts with specialist-level psychiatric treatment was extracted from the CRHC and categorised as follows: None, 1–5, 6–25, 26–100 and 101+. Psychiatric diagnoses were categorised into the ICD-10 main F categories in supplementary analyses.So yes, enforced therapy was included in this. All of these subhumans should hang themselves
>>43163488Sami-Matti RuuskaSeething fat cispoon
>>43163762I guess there's that part which refers to diagnosis vs. no diagnosis but yeah that's not exactly a good measure either.>>431637574 controls for each tranny, so 4x people
>>43163809Katinka TuiskuSkelemutt
>>43163809Macauley Fullkin
>>43163831Timo HolttinenHas a bunch of other papers that exploit the follow-up time fraud in >>43163768 to hate on trannies
>>43163845Riittakerttu KaltialaCistroon and horse cursed with human life that talks to reporters about the evils of trannies
>>43163861Literal SEGM member.
>>43163866I am less inclined to think >>43163784 is a coincidence then
>>43163872She also worked on Cass
>>43163488There is 0% chance that the “matched” controls were not selected fraudulently. Like zero zero zero percent chance. Finland has a 70+% lifetime mental health diagnosis rate in the entire population. At any given time 10% of people are in treatment. Their control numbers are like visibly, obviously fraudulent.
>>43163929https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC12175100/It is literally impossible that their control selection is not fraudulent.The average age of onset of psych conditions is 24.1 and their study was monitoring people as they crossed that range. >>43163575 is not possible with a random sample from the population. Statistically it is not possible. They necessarily cherry-picked the controls. Necessarily. To have that result.
>>43163488Correlation is not causation PSYCH 101When we treated the people for their condition, it revealed that not all their v problems were caused by a nebulous clid of gender dysphoria and after a decade of inhuman torture and genocidal persecution, they SUPRISINGLY are not psychologically stable and normal. More at repedocan babyfuck goyim 11.
>>43163488>do painkillers really help with chronic pain? patients experience pain before, during, and after painkillers>we noticed positive correlation between chronic pain patients and depression (r=0.87)>evidence shows despite the painkiller use the patient is still depressed and in pain>discussion: despite painkillers patients are still in pain - why are they called painkillers then? and why are they still depressed?>clinical implications: painkillers seem linked to deterioration in mental health. despite treatment patients still have pain and depression. maybe the pain is in their head. we suggest treating patient mental health prior to administering painkillers
>>43163488keep an eye out for this reference in levy review 2.0
>>43163488Trannies are mentally ill. More news at eleven.
>>43164033cissies love to torture trannies, more news at 12
I didn't transition because I thought it would make my mental better. I transitioned because I have always wanted to be a girl and I thought the idea was hot.
>>43163488>Riittakerttu Kaltialainto the fucking trash it goes.
>>43164060real
Your nukes are paltry and your mother dresses you funny.
>>43164267silencing critical academics is not a good look for trannies right now
>>43164316>silencing >it's an anonymous imageboard user saying they'll disregard a study due to authorship biasretard
>>43164316she's about as far from impartial as humanly possible, do your fucking research before glazing this malicious piece of shit.
>>43164364"The trannies are literally silencing me right now!" he said on his latest Netflix special.
>>43163488>>43163495>>43163500OP linked a "study" coauthored by Riittakerttu Kaltiala, a member of a pro-"conversion" torture group SEGM. In the "studies" this study in turn cites, there is a Trump government document (reference 19) laundered through anti-vaccine activist RFK Jr's HHS.The study is measuring one narrow proxy: specialist psychiatric contacts. There's no data on self-harm rates, suicidal ideation, patient satisfaction, identity congruence, or functioning. These are the outcomes trans people and clinicians actually care about most, and they're entirely absent. The paper's conclusions are thus far more sweeping than its data can support.The paper waves away minority stress theory by saying societal acceptance has increased so psychiatric rates should have fallen. But that's a simplistic reading. Trans visibility and social acceptance have increased unevenly, and increased visibility can actually increase exposure to discrimination and online harassment, not reduce it. The assumption that "more accepting society = less minority stress" ignores a lot of nuance.The paper also completely ignores the comprehensive Utah review of evidence supporting treatment:https://web.archive.org/web/20250525001504/https://le.utah.gov/AgencyRP/downloadFile.jsp?submissionId=287They intentionally ignored the Utah Review because it does not fit their anti-trans narrative. OP linked a garbage source.
>>43163995you jest but this how docs outside of pain clincs genuinely think
>>43164316Anon she has been leading a monopol on the finnish under18 psychiatric system, shes far from a random academic
>>43164428>The study is measuring one narrow proxy: specialist psychiatric contacts.And why shouldn't that matter? In the end, that's what costs the healthcare system money and resources. We live in an aging society and have to allocate them efficiently, and if making more trannies makes more mental patients then society simply can't afford that right now. Regardless of how happy they may or may not be
>>43164535this, why won't trannies just lay down and die already? imagine the cost savings!
>>43164535Anon... most of these are probably private. Or enforced by finnish "system". Wouldn't the better choice be to not force trannies on therapy (which they often have to pay out of their own pocket)? Also like 70% of the finnish pop is genuinely mentally ill
>>43164535Except we have better studies elsewhere that show costs going down with treatment. Finland is just retarded.
>>43164556>not force trannies on therapybut the study says that transition is making them mentally ill. so allowing them to transition is what's leading them to therapy>70% of the finnish pop is genuinely mentally illall the more reason not to waste mental health resources by allowing people to make a choice that us clearly incredibly mentally unhealhy>>43164600>costs going down with treatment. And how much did the treatment cost? Did you include that in the total cost?
>>43164600>retardedthat's way too generous, Finland is a bigoted backwater shithole.
>>43164632The Nordic countries are the best places in the world for trannies and still its not good enough apparently. You people will never be satisfied so why should anyone listen to you?
>>43164628with that logic they could just give everyone hrt and remove the clinic, just ban them from mental health care
>>43164628https://www.unsw.edu.au/newsroom/news/2026/02/funding-surgery-hormones-trans-people-medicare>>43164640Where did you hear this? They're actual garbage shitholes for trannies. Social acceptance is not great and the medical system is even worse than the UK's. Best places for trannies are blue states in the US.
>>43164657Meh, it's not that bad. Social acceptance is about as high as anywhere I imagine, very individualistic culture so nobody gives a fuck. Medical system isn't great because it's slow and somewhat gatekeep-y but you get bunch of stuff for free once you get through there.
>>43164316Isn't she the one that assigns masturbation "homework" to her underage patients?
>>43164656But that would be against medical ethics, not to mention cruel>>43164657>Where did you hear this?They're all like Sweden which is leftist
>>43164667Long waitlists with horrific gatekeeping. No minor access to HRT. Forced sterilization + destruction of gamete samples until relatively recently.They're not good for trannies. I'd rather go to France or Germany or possibly even Italy.
>>43164696Leftist =/= good for trannies
>>43164667>once you get through thereeasier said than fucking done.>you're neurodivergent?gtfo>you're unemployed?gtfo>you're non-binary?gtfo>you use recreational drugs?gtfo>you're depressed?gtfo
>>43164711I'd rather go to fucking Iran no cap
>>43164711>Forced sterilization + destruction of gamete samplesstraight up eugenics lmao
>>43164739tbf Finland doesn't do this anymore. Although they won't pay for or even support freezing trans-peoples gamete samples. Meanwhile if you're a random douchebag mall-security guard you get to freeze your samples free of charge bc "occupational risks".
>>43164778Took until 2023 to be able to change legal gender without sterilization. Also you had to be unmarried.
>>43163488im 23 almost 24 am i not a youth anymore?
>>43164786yeah as a Finn I'm painfully aware. Our history w/ regards to sexual minorities is a sad one. Back when HIV emerged back in the 80's it was largely regarded as a "problem which solves itself" right up until the first cisfoid was diagnosed with it. After that there were campaigns to raise awareness etc but not a moment before.
>>43164826Americans are just idiots I think and don't realize that despite things being terrible in red states, the US is still genuinely the best place for trannies due to mobility to blue states.
>>43164657>Where did you hear this?some bar chart on facebook where where nordic countries are ranked highest on lgbt equality because they have the best prisons for the upcoming tranny genocide or somethingprobably
So as an ameritranny trying to move to finland, would I be able to continue my existing prescriptions or do I jave to go in some crazy waitlist?
>>43164862...probably given that you have a decent health insurance which covers your treatments?
>>43164862Worth keeping in mind that the rights of individual states are under threat right now by a tyrannical federal government
>>43164900why tf would you voluntarily come here of all places?
>>43164900silly american, don't you know transpoli is the only place thatncan accurately diagnose transsexualism? there is a very real possibility you have been erroneously prescribed hrt all these years, dont you know?
>>43164948My chaser bf lives there :D
>>43164951Does it help if I already pass stealth?
>>43164920Medicaid in blue states is actually really good. That plus informed consent makes it very solid. >>43164926This is also true but it's precarious everywhere because of rising global right wing nationalism.
>>43164999no, why would it?
>>43164999You won't anymore by the time you're off the waitlist
>>43165000You are the smartest poster on this board, also checked.
>>43164999as a foreigner it's probably a better idea for you to get your EU prescriptions from GenderGP or Imago, bc contrary to popular beliefs healthcare here isn't free or especially cheap even for natives.
>>43165034God that's sad
>>43165056Yes
>>43165039Oh yeah Im aware, my boyfriend explained how it all works. Id be coming over as a student though does that change anything?
>>43163488>swedish study>finnish studyI swear being europoor just makes you fake trans. no other explanation why they keep getting uniquely negative results
>>43165081Institutional bias against trannies that makes their lives worseAlso I think the fact that Vitamin D absorption mutations are really common in trannies means that there's a pronounced effect when living in countries where you have basically zero daylight half of the year.
>>43165075no bc the student health org YTHS is even worse of a joke than our primary health care.
>>43165081it's actually because almost every person that works in trans healthcare in a nordic country is a hitler tier transphobe
>>43165099>Vitamin D absorption mutations are really common in tranniessource?
>>43165105Hmm I guess I will save more money before going then for DIY at least
>>43165125iirc it's just one of the common mutations alongside MTHFR and CYP17A1 mutations that are weirdly elevated in the trans populationIt's why hEDS is really common and also why trans people, even before treatment, tend to have lower Bone Mineral Density scores. Section 7.1 has some of the relevant information: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0929693X24001763#tbl0001
>>43165145>diyenjoy having 9/10 vials destroyed by customs.
>>43165158So what you're saying is trannies are generally genetically feeble? That sucks
>>43165190You are a real doomer you know that?
>>43165219just telling the truth
>>43165227I know its just your national outlook on life, I should not be too judgemental
>>43165219well tbf our customs are a bunch of rabid fucking dogs
>>43165190Do your customs check even packages from within EU? I wasn't aware that was a thing, goes against the customs Union no?
>>43165245Yeah I saw the eye of sauron videos they had up all over the place last time I visited
>>43165248yeah it does violate it, but no vendor in EU will even ship tobacco/cigarettes here bc they don't want to deal with our shithead customs agents
>>43165272So is diy just not a thing in Finland? That sucks ass combined with your waitlist system. How do trannies deal over there?
>>43163488>A limitation of this study is that more detailed information on patients' reasons for using the psychiatric services could not be analysed.so this study is useless then it didnt actually study the mental health effects, just whether or not people went to a psychiatrist? lol and the number of visits for a big chunk of the study was >100, which I guarantee just means that it counted weekly therapy as "severe psychiatric morbidity"this is such horseshit but as always cis people are gonna run with it
>>43164628>but the study saysthe abstract says that. Exactly to fool gullible idiots like you. Read the entire thing (it's available, OP post), and show me any concrete data for any "mental illness" (any name of one, severity of one, coincidence, number of diagnoses, genuinely anything concerned a mental illness)>waste mental health resourcescalm down, commie>>43164656honestly would be better than whatever shithole this is
>>43165280it is possible but very inconsistent. but to put it thjs way, there's a.reaspn basically every nordic tranny is a gigahon, well in addition to the unfortunate genetics.
>>43164900Maybe. I think you'd be safe if you don't have your balls anymore at least.
>>43165340I do tho :(
>>43165280Nah, DIY is quite common here. The customs are a pain in the ass sure but you just order from somewhere they don't get audited so hard.
>>43165356Then hard to say really, having some documentation that you've been on HRT for a long time might make them grant you to a prescription until you get the diagnosis on our route too
>>43165386>>43165356Can't she just bring a few vials with her to last three years? Should be enough if she's going there to study
>>43165410Sure but what about my prog though?
>>43165415Bring 200g of raws?
>>43165410Maybe, although they're not going to be exactly happy about someone bringing vials for years with them so better hope there's no screening.
>>43165427Insurance will only fill one month at a time
>>43165431They also don't give you raw powder. Get it from less legitimate sources
>>43165428I have never had my hand luggage closely inspected after landing, not within the EU or travelling outside of it. So long as you get it on the flight and go through the nothing to declare customs thing you'll probably be fine
>>43163488what does this even mean. they prob just started dealing w their problems after transitioning. cus yk like transitioning and “getting help” tend to happen at the same time????? 3.5 post transition at 16 i don’t talk therapy or meds anymore and i don’t have anxiety and im like not rlly depressed anymore and i act on what i want now and i don’t disassociate as much. absolute slop study. >>43163500well yes im def way more insane but only cus i externalize more now
>>43163488>youth gender transitions>under 23ahhahahahahhahhhahahha
>>43165802yeah, 18 year old amab Finns are old enough to be conscripted, but apparently not old enough to be considered adults in this regard. It's almost as if the (trans) health care system is filled up with bogged up old whores who cannot stand the idea that someone born a man would end up being prettier than them, so they do everything in their power to ensure shitty transition results.
>>43165912What is Finnish conscription like for trannies?
>>43166021I wouldn't know as I weaseled my way out of it lol. But knowing Finland I'd imagine they won't take you in if you've transitioned even if you wanted to go (or especially if you don't pass and demand to be placed in the same housing unit with cisfoids).
>>43163646so>wanting to be something you’re not sucks and is slightly insane>this causes mental distress as long as you focus on itHuge win for reppers eh?
>>43166074that's good that its easy enough to get out of for now. hope it won't change when the EU finally decides to directly attack russia in 2029 or 2030
>>43166021its not like in thailand or russia or whatever they rightfully reject people they assume are going to be problematic recruits.
>>43163488>under 18 is a youth>under 19 is a youth>under 21 is a youth>under 23 is a youth>under 26 is a youth>under 30 is a youthOld people seriously need to die if they're going to keep changing the definition of child to keep me in it
>>43165158Does this mean you need lots of vitamin K to absorb Vitamin D properly? I already take a 5MTHF supplement for B12
I don't give a fuck whether it improves outcomes or not. I just think people should be allowed to do what they want to their bodies.
>>43166198I tired a K2+D3 supplement and it made me crazy anxious. Actually quit HRT because of it because I thought it was E causing the issues. D3 on its own seems fine though.
ough this thread makes me nervousi moved to finland in 2025 from california, im a finnish citizen cuz my mom's from there and i found a (temporary) job in finland whereas i hadn't had any luck finding work in the US (i'm a programmer fresh out of school basically)now im also going back to school there to get a master's, and i just got a new job there toofeels like im in this weird place of like, if i had stayed in california then trans stuff would be much easier but i have had zero luck whatsoever finding work there whereas in finland, i have a job and future prospects but trans stuff is harderidk what to doi have just been diying my hrt, haven't bothered trying to go through transpoli yet cuz the doctor i talked to when i first got to finland just looked at me like i was crazy when i showed him my hrt prescription and asked if he could renew it Dxnow i know there's like a paper i can print from trasek to explain to a regular doc that they need to give me a referral to transpoli but i havent botheredso far i havent had issues getting my E through customs (been ordering from places within the EU) and i have just been doing monotherapy but idkwould feel a lot better if i was doing it under a doctor's supervision Dx what if i have some other health issue and i go to the dr and theyre like why are u a bio male with high estrogen and no hrt prescriptionidk sry for blogpost i just saw discussion of finnish trans system and thought id mention my story
>>43163544>if they cite anything at allRight wingers now feed each other AI-generated tranny caricatures.
>>43164535>society simply can't afford that right nowWhat would happen if we killed all the useless eaters- I mean social parasites- i mean dysgenics- I mean mentally ill and physically disabled to save costs and safeguard the greater good?
>>43166501You're like a sheep complaining wolves won't help you
>>43165208>you're saying trans people are genetically feebleThat's obvious if you think about it with any depth. We are adjacent to intersex disorders with messed up hormonal and sex development. Disordered development happening to one part of an organism is a sign that the organism systemically may have some issues going on. That's why trannies are so autistic, a lot of intersex disorders have heavily elevated autism rates as well btw
>>43166704Tbf autism (just like gender dysphoria) is probably several different pathologies with the same diagnosis, and is theorized to be caused by aromatase issues that result in weird sexually dimorphic development. There's hypermasculine autism, but there's also autism where people end up with more androgynous than typical facial features.
>>43166501you should just try to get to transpoli waiting line any case, delaying it is not gonna do you any favors
trannies are all about "the science" and "the studies" right up until any study done after 2024. then it's completely irrelevant nonsense. weird
The only Finnish tranny I know of was a schizophrenic who called bomb threats to Canadian airports in one of the generals I browse on /vg/
>>43166810The most comprehensive reviews we have that show the benefits of GAC were released after 2024 you idiot. Even Cass admits that it's helpful.
>>43166810you just described yourself kek, unless you tell me you were for youth transition before going into that thread
>>43163488Trust the science
>>43164428thisAs nationalism and other ideas get larger, while the narrative grows that "Science" is just a big corporate racket, sold to us by bigger corporations with conflicting interests, the actual rigor of scientific institutions will plummet so quickly that the story will be made true just in time for the insane people to "Sound legitimate". pounds of crayon marked papers will back up "laws" that amount to a tweet and a rant being enforced by illiterate half mexican gestapo, all while doctors and managers are just doing their job
>>43166735yea, that's what i'm thinkingif i woulda just persisted and got a transpoli referral a year ago id already be a year into the line Dx o well...idk i wish there was like more finnish trans ppl i could talk to esp abt diy and stuff just to have more info about what its like hereive been feeling a bit isolated desu
>>43163488>Those referred after 2010 had greater psychiatric needs than earlier cohorts, bothe before (47.9% vs. 15.3%) and after (61.3% vs. 14.2%) referral.Bro what the fuck? This literally proves that terfs were right about trenders, I can't even stevenWhat the fuck do we do now?
>>43167172or it says that seeking psychiatric treatment is becoming more common?
>>43167172You are retarded. This is talking about referrals to psychiatric services, not actual diagnoses or care received. It measures bias by doctors more than anything else.
>>43167204So you think you know better than doctors?
