>>43538312
even if they would destroy your liver, do you really care more about your liver than your hairline

>>43538318
im already on e tho

>>43538325
switch to injections then if youre worried about your liver

>>43538312
I am on all 3 at once, topical, no complaints. Added topical spiro too. It will take 1-2 years to unfuck itself but it WILL work unless you are a 1 in a million nonresponder
>but the sides
Yes there might be some. Minor erectile dysfunction, heart palpitations, mood swings. If you take topical it won't be that bad if it happens at all, pills are more of a gamble
>but post-finasteride syndrome
Not real, absolute delusional bullshit spread by crab-bucketing losers or histrionic hypochondriacs.

They work. I've used that stack with success, though I've since moved to the upgraded form of that stack: oral dutasteride + topical liposomal minoxidil sulfate + tretinoin (just for skin at this point, since it's redundant with the minoxidil already in sulfate form) + greymarket maybe-PP405). None of these destroy your liver. The biggest health risks are from oral minoxidil, which is why I've avoided such. Oral minoxidil can also make you hairy in places you probably don't want if you're a troon.
>t. cis man NOT on HRT

>>43538652
>>43538979
How much does all this stuff cost per month? Also do any of these help with outright regrowth vs retention? I didn’t catch that my hair was thinning until it was already pretty far along. I know the idea is to start early, but I fucked up because the way I wear my hair made it easy to miss it was thinning

>>43539147
>How much does all this stuff cost per month?
Dutasteride has been 0$ copay for me for years at this point, but it'll depend on your insurance (I'm American). It's like 15$ a month with GoodRx. The cheapest topical Minoxidil is Kirkland brand (which you can order online (e.g., Amazon, Ebay) without a Costco membership). How much it is per month will depend on how fast you use it, but the unit marketed as a 6 month supply goes for a bit over 30$, so a bit over 5$ a month. The only vendor I know of for liposomal minoxidil sulfate is https://folligenz.com/shop/, and their stuff is expensive. Tretinoin cost will depend on how much you use and what concentration and where you order it, but it's generally cheap (I get mine from a greymarket (prescriptionless) online pharmacy because for some reason it's prescription-only and asking a doctor for a prescription is a humiliation ritual). The maybe-PP405 is actually two things sold by https://everychem.com, listed as 3HP and PP30 right now. There is no recommendation for dosing here, but I've been doing one pump on each temple per day (you can do the math on monthly cost).

>>43539270
Oh word, that’s a lot more affordable than I’d been thinking. Thanks for the cost breakdown!

>>43539147
>Also do any of these help with outright regrowth vs retention?
5-AR inhibitors (and any other anti-androgen/hormonal intervention) are only for stopping balding progression. The only proven interventions for regrowth are minoxidil (topical or oral) and, to a lesser extent, minoxidil. Around 40% of men are poor responders to topical minoxidil because of low presence in the scalp of the enzyme responsible for converting the prodrug minoxidil into the active form minoxidil sulfate. This is an immutable genetic trait. The 3 ways to work around it are:
1. oral minoxidil: Since everyone has sufficient quantity of the relevant enzyme *in the liver*, a systemic administration of minoxidil will get converted to the active form by the liver and make its way to the scalp, but oral/systemic minoxidil comes with annoying side effects and risks serious heart issues, so I don't recommend this.
2. topical tretinoin: This increases synthesis of the enzyme in the scalp. This is the cheap and easy and safe option. It can be somewhat annoying if regular tretinoin application gives you dandruff though.
3. liposomal minoxidil sulfate: Ordinarily, the active form (minoxidil sulfate) is unstable and has somewhat worse skin penetration than the prodrug (minoxidil), but trapping minoxidil sulfate molecules in tiny oily blobs increases stability and skin penetration. This is the best we have, but it's expensive.
Of course, you may be a good responder to regular minoxidil and not need all this. I think you can get a test if you want to know for sure, but I haven't looked into that.
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>>43539377
PP405 is a novel intervention currently in trials and isn't publicly disclosed, but there's a group that has 2 educated guesses as to what it is. You can read more here if you care redd (dot) it (slash) 1rsyop3, but it's of interest because (if successful) it's the only thing that actually re-awakens long-dormant follicles, making it really important for regrowth.
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>>43539377
>and, to a lesser extent, minoxidil
*and, to a lesser extent, microneedling

>>43539377
>>43539393
Thanks, really appreciate all the info! I’m a cis guy, so I’d been weighing just buzzing all off once things got dire, but I think I’m going to give this a shot first. I could live without my hair, but I’d prefer not to if possible.

>>43539422
Are you cis but on E (>>43538325) for hairloss reasons or for other reasons?
>>43539147
>I didn’t catch that my hair was thinning until it was already pretty far along.
The general rule of thumb is something like:
starting at NW1: you'll see good results
starting at NW2: you'll see decent results
starting at NW3: you'll see moderate results
starting at NW4+: you'll see weak results
If your hair loss is diffuse rather than pattern (though it sounds like yours is pattern), you'll generally see quite good results.

>>43539377
and how well is this working for you? the maybe-PP405 thing sounds really interesting. i wonder why it isn't discussed more.

>>43539448
nta but do these NW estimates take age into account? i am 21 but at NW3 already but since this is recent-ish could there be a better chance than on avearge?

>>43539477
>and how well is this working for you?
I went from NW3-3.5 with crown thinning to NW2 with almost no crown thinning, and I'm still seeing slow progress on my temples. I'd be happy with NW1, but I don't know if I'll get there without a transplant eventually.
>i wonder why it isn't discussed more.
It's just new and obscure and may not even work in the end.
>nta but do these NW estimates take age into account?
These estimates don't take age or speed of recession into account, but, anecdotally, it seems that people who saw sudden rapid loss and then started treatment within a short timeframe saw better results compared to others at the same NW level. FWIW, my timeline is something like:
age 15: earliest hairloss
age 17: NW1
age 19: NW2
age 21: NW3-3.5, started treatment
age 25: NW2
hoping for NW1 by age 30

>>43539534
oh wow. i'd be pretty happy to get the results you got and our timelines are pretty much the same :0

ordering this maybe-PP405 shouldn't be a problem outside of the US as its not regulated so far right?
Topical minox has not been doing much and i have an appointment soon to get on fin but does that even really make sense when i also just started with E? I read a couple of times that fin somehow raises test when you are doing HRT which is not really something that i want but at the same time it seems like DHT can still be a problem? Since i am planning to get my blood tested down the line is there some DHT level that should be safe or is that an individual thing?

>>43539448
Oh I’m not on E, that was a different anon. I just saw this thread and figured I’d pop in and ask a couple questions.

Yeah my hair loss is patterned not patchy. I’m not really sure where I’d fall on the Norwood scale. Probably between a 3 and 4 looking at photo examples.

I think I’ll keep doing research and give things a shot. If it doesn’t work out I’ll just buzz it off and move on with my life

>>43539613
>ordering this maybe-PP405 shouldn't be a problem outside of the US as its not regulated so far right?
It isn't regulated, but I'm also not familiar with customs of every country. I know the vendor (EveryChem) ships internationally, and international customers generally seem to report success, but you could ask around on their Discord (TRzdSJTAQC). If you're considering buying either of the maybe-PP405s, know that Pelage Pharmaceuticals (PP), the developer of the drug, recently sent EveryChem (EC) a cease and desist for patent infringement but has at least temporarily allowed EC to keep selling what they have, but there's no telling how long it'll still be available. I'm also not sure if PP reaching out to EC makes it more likely or less likely that EC really got PP405 right.
>Topical minox has not been doing much
Have you tried tretinoin (>>43539377)?
>soon to get on fin
It may be that any regrowth from the minodixil is being lost because you aren't stopping recession hormonally... but
>i also just started with E
HRT stuff is a blind spot of mine, so I can't really say if it would be redundant with a 5-AR inhibitor. It may still be worth it in the short term to stack both, but you'll need to research this.
>I read a couple of times that fin somehow raises test when you are doing HRT
Finasteride and dutasteride (collectively, 5-AR inhibitors) inhibit 5-alpha reductase, which is what converts testosterone (T) into dihydrotestosterone (DHT). DHT is much more potent than T and makes up the bulk of the androgenic component of hairloss. Inhibiting 5-AR will reduce DHT, but that means that T which would have otherwise become DHT now sits around (elevating T levels) or converts to other things (including E via aromatase). This is all true regardless of whether you're on HRT. If the goal is to reduce total androgen effect, the decrease in DHT will far exceed the increase in T to that end.

>>43539613
>is there some DHT level that should be safe or is that an individual thing?
If by "safe" you mean "low enough to not contribute to hairloss", I'm pretty sure any amount of androgen (including DHT) will contribute to hairloss, but I don't know if the dose-response curve is linear or what. I don't think there's any established level below which it's considered negligible.
If by "safe" you mean "high enough to not cause health issues", you don't need DHT after puberty has completed. Beyond that point, the main effects of DHT are hair loss, oily skin/acne and faster skin aging, prostate hyperplasia and cancer, increased libido (though I personally haven't noticed a difference after nuking my DHT), and increased stength and strength training effectiveness.

https://www.youtube.com/@haircafekevin

>>43539789
>ships internationally, and international customers generally seem to report success
yeah i saw a swiss guy in the reddit thread say that he ordered some but dunno if he got any of it yet. i am in germany and the laws around this are a little confusing. i think only prescription meds are an issue but seeing as this isn't even official medicine it should be fine i think? But thanks for the invite, i'll take a look.
>Have you tried tretinoin
no but the main issue is just getting a hold of it. Don't think that i can get it prescribed and getting it online would for sure make import risky
>I'm pretty sure any amount of androgen (including DHT) will contribute to hairloss
then there is no reason not to get that prescription i guess. in the beginning it would definitely make sense to take it i think but after a while on hrt there it should be less of an issue i think..

>>43539939
A few of these are listed as shipping from Germany: https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/list-of-reliable-prescription-free-online-pharmacies.8113/ , and tretinoin is usually carried by these sorts of vendors. (Also, Ctrl+F "customs" on that thread.)

>>43539983
thank you very much. this is very helpful :D
>(Also, Ctrl+F "customs" on that thread.)
not really needed if they are within the EU. Theoretically its still not allowed but there are practically no controls within the schengen area so its fine. its stuff from outside the EU like the maybe-PP405 place that makes things difficult, especially since they don't do stealth i assume. Don't think that customs would really see an issue with that one but you get what i mean

Also do you know anything about ketoconazol? should you use it as described (5 times a week) or does a anti-hairloss regiment look different?

>>43540271
I've never used ketoconazole and don't know the dosage/regimen for anti-hairloss or otherwise. Topical ketoconazole is a weak androgen receptor antagonist and maybe possibly a weak 5-AR inhibitor, but there are better options for both of these. It's not worth your time or money unless you can't get anything better. Apparently there's also oral ketoconazole which inhibits androgen synthesis, but it's toxic to the liver (and, again, there are more effective options for this).

>>43540432
its just something people in >>/fa/balding talk about a bunch.
i don't know if it actually does anything in terms or regrowth but i can attest that it helps with what its made to fix a lot and almost instantly if anybody here is struggling with those things.

so for now its going to be E, fin/dut, and topical minoxidil i think. Maybe tretinoin since it seems pretty accessible now too.

thanks and good luck