this saddens me greatly
i dont want to be a delusional man asserting my womanhood without the facts to back it up
the brain scan stuff not conclusive iirc and still doesnt change the fact that tw are adult males

it reminds me of when i saw a post here of a cis woman complaining about being called cis and not normal
and the comments were just cis woman picking on trans women for wanting to be them
and its highk true
its true
i wish i could be a normal straight woman and have a normal family instead of being this fake gay male degenerate with artificial form
no uterus too
sad!

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>>43543313
>why is a trans women not a man?
Because both a person's gender identity and how others view that person's gender need to be in alignment as "man" otherwise that person isn't functionally a man.
>ok, does that mean trans women are men if put outside of society? that sucks.
No. If there's no society component then it falls solely on the person's gender identity.
>this is a lie; even a "finished" trans woman is still biologically male in the strict sense of being organized(key word here) to produce small gametes
Organized by whom? If trans women were "biologically male" in the strict sense then they wouldn't have intersexed brains that give them dysphoria. Also many trans women don't produce "small gametes" and plenty of them never have/never could/never will again, so why is it relevant?
>they just correlate to which genitalia(and therefore which sex)
Society used to have actual civil discussions about this. "If you have a vagina now you're female now" and vice versa. We've slid backwards dramatically from that degree of practicality.
>so in the strict biological sense(which is what the vast majority of people turn to) all trans women are(at this point in human history) adult male humans and therefore classified as men.
Again, what is "strict biological sense"? Most normies are idiots and just fall back on chromosomes, which as you already said aren't perfectly black and white.
>does this mean trans woman are just a subset of man rather than woman?
A subset of women is not a subset of men, lol.
>mfw when i cant escape the original sin(being born male)
Why not?

>>43543410
>i wish i could be a normal straight woman and have a normal family
Why can't you, Nona?

>>43543313
>how do I justify being dysphoric/being trans/transitioning
yuo don't. you literally don't owe anyone an explanation.
like, I pass 99% of the time and simply refuse this conversation with anyone. fine, you call me a man, idgaf. fine, i'm a man who takes estrogen, has had ffs, ba and srs, now what? it still doesn't change how I look and doesn't erase the fact that my existence is way better than it would've been had I not transitioned.
you troon because you want to. or you don't because you don't want to. that's it. that simple.
jfc you people are losing yourselves into meaningless details. so glad my (now) husband insisted that I stay away from this shit when I wasn't feeling great.

>>43543481
>Because both a person's gender identity and how others view that person's gender need to be in alignment as "man" otherwise that person isn't functionally a man.
even if this were true you are still not a woman at the very least
also most trans people dont pass tbhon
unfortunate
>Organized by whom? If trans women were "biologically male" in the strict sense then they wouldn't have intersexed brains that give them dysphoria. Also many trans women don't produce "small gametes" and plenty of them never have/never could/never will again, so why is it relevant?
??? biologically organized as in your stated purpose is to produce small gametes. Being castrated as a man doesnt make you not a man. You are still biologically made to produce small gametes(which is why I used the word
"organized"). You're not even a third gender girlboy thing, you're just an infertile male.
>Society used to have actual civil discussions about this. "If you have a vagina now you're female now" and vice versa. We've slid backwards dramatically from that degree of practicality.
a neovagina is biologically disconnected from reproductive anatomy. Also, this would mean that 90+ percent of trans women are men as they will never get/cannot afford srs.
>Again, what is "strict biological sense"? Most normies are idiots and just fall back on chromosomes, which as you already said aren't perfectly black and white.
As in what 99 percent of people + all major scientific textbooks will say. You could argue sex is based on a plethora of characteristics but this is not a common interpretation. a male will never in their life produce large gametes.
>a subset of women is not a subset of men, lol.
why would trans women be a subset of women if they are not an adult female human but rather an adult male human?
>mfw when i cant escape the original sin(being born male)
because I cannot become female.

>>43543538
because im not female and therefore cosigned to at the most be a male "woman"
>>43543629
yes yes I get this is neurotic or whatever but it makes me sad taking it in stride i dont wanna have to say oh yeah im a man who has modified his body to become like a woman
thats embarassing to say internally
>jfc you people are losing yourselves into meaningless details. so glad my (now) husband insisted that I stay away from this shit when I wasn't feeling great.
im jealous
idk why im only like 18 obv im not gonna be married

>>43543701
What about you is not female?

>>43543701
>obv im not gonna be married
why not? you can't know that now anyway. At 18 I thought i'd be a normie straight man, lol.
>i dont wanna have to say oh yeah im a man who has modified his body to become like a woman
the truth shall set you free.
>thats embarassing to say internally
the truth shall also free you from such silly notions like embarrassing.
what's embarrassing is not living your life in your terms and always seeking validation from people who don't (and won't) love you anyway and at best don't give a fuck about you and in the rest of the time they want you dead no matter what you do.

>>43543313
>being organized(key word here) to produce small gametes
this is superstitious aristotelian nonsense. there's no concrete fact about the world itself that you can go check that would make a statement like this true or false.

>>43543313
the only justification to troons is if you were naturally too feminine looking to be a proper man. If you look like a normal male there is zero justification to transition ur just hurting yourself and those around you

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>>43543313
>but gender is a social construct
this was always a facile argument. Not to say it isn't true, but it isn't complete and it's not really applicable. Gender, as in how we gender things, is a social construct. For example if I say pink is for boys and blue is for girls, skirts are for boys and pants are for girls, those could be social constructs. Expected gender roles and presentation, even the number of gender classifications in society are social constructs
interacting with the social construct facilitates one's personal presentation but it doesn't account for gender as it applies to one's internal sense of identity; am I a man purely because others say so? Are the chuds intrinsically right? Or am I the woman I am in my heart?

or is there a bioessential element to the matter of the transgender phenomenon? Do so many people feel like they're in the wrong body, the wrong sex, because of some quirk of anatomy? Around 100 neurological studies (picrel) since the 1970s consistently show that trans people have brain structures that more closely resemble the common patterns of their experienced gender identity than those of their birth sex.
And really, is who we are as people determined by what's between our legs or what's in our hearts, minds, and souls?

you shouldn't have to justify your dysphoria, your transition, or your personal sense of identity. Others should have to justify why they would discriminate against you

>>43543854
???
what is difficult to understand about this
male produce small gamete
female produce large gamete
male that doesnt/can never produce small gamete is still a male
just an abnormal/undeveloped one
nothing supersititious about it mate

>>43543884
the brain thing is muddled by the fact that many trans women are androphillic(male attracted to male)
I know it is proven that gay males have more fem brains or something

>>43543755
no uterus for starters

Because all of human society is a mental construct and it is possible to understand gender as distinct to sex and it's even possible to understand all of humanity as intersex and on a spectrum.

The only reason to choose to understand it as excluding you is if you want to hurt yourself. It's not like choosing the simpler understanding is protecting anything.

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>>43543661
>even if this were true you are still not a woman at the very least
Why not?
>also most trans people dont pass tbhon
This is a reason why passing should be focused on instead of the leddit excuse of that it doesn't matter.
>??? biologically organized as in your stated purpose is to produce small gametes.
Do you believe in creationism or something? Nothing biological has a "purpose" or is "organized" to do anything.
>Being castrated as a man doesnt make you not a man.
I'm not a man though so it's not an apt comparison.
>You are still biologically made to produce small gametes(which is why I used the word "organized").
Made by who? God?
>You're not even a third gender girlboy thing, you're just an infertile male.
Nah, I'm a sterile female.
>a neovagina is biologically disconnected from reproductive anatomy.
What does that even mean? In the future when lab-grown uteruses are available for trannies, wtf else do you think they'll connect it to? Where will the menses go if not through the vagina?
>Also, this would mean that 90+ percent of trans women are men as they will never get/cannot afford srs.
Not men, but male. This is why rightoids want to take away our healthcare btw.
>As in what 99 percent of people + all major scientific textbooks will say. You could argue sex is based on a plethora of characteristics but this is not a common interpretation.
Textbooks use it because even research isn't insulated cishet normative society. That doesn't make it a perfect descriptor 100% of the time. For a similar non-tranny example, look at how most research papers study human sexuality. In 99% of papers non-straight people are entirely ignored. Does that mean they don't exist?
>a male will never in their life produce large gametes.
They could, when in-vitro gametogenesis for humans becomes possible.
>because I cannot become female.
Why not? What about you is male why not change those things to female? Do the things that can't be changed actually matter irl?

>>43543997
>males are male because they produce small gametes
>but the ones who don't are still male
???

>>43544021
Not that anon, but there was a recent study that controlled for "gay brain" and found that androphillic trans women have more going on in their brain (and similar to natal females) than gay men do. Androphilia is controlled by a separate region of the brain from gender identity. I can post the study here later if you want to read it.

>This is a reason why passing should be focused on instead of the leddit excuse of that it doesn't matter.
fair enough
>Why not?
because not being male does not inherently mean I am now female
>Do you believe in creationism or something? Nothing biological has a "purpose" or is "organized" to do anything.
I am atheist. Also this is not true at all? Breasts in females exist for the purpose of breastfeeding(there are other minor utilities of it but that is the primary one). The idea that just because theres no god keeping the score that things arent made for a purpose is weird to me.
A urethra's purpose is to be something to piss out of whether you like it or not.
>Made by who? God?
no, your genetics?
>What does that even mean? In the future when lab-grown uteruses are available for trannies, wtf else do you think they'll connect it to? Where will the menses go if not through the vagina?
it means that in the literal sense a neovagina is an opening designed to simulate the look of a natural vagina. There is no uterus attached to it and it is not attached to the prostate or anything so it just exists isolated from any formal reproductive function.
That said, when lab grown uteruses are available, tested, and proven to be functional, I will accept that trans women can become female. Sadly, I and 99 percent of my peers will never be able to afford such a thing.
>cishet normative society.
you mean 99+ percent of the human population?
>Why not? What about you is male why not change those things to female? Do the things that can't be changed actually matter irl?
I at this time in history cannot possess a uterus. That matters to me.

>>43543997
if it doesn't produce small gametes, how do you know it's a male?
the answer to that question is the definition of "male" you are actually using in practice. not the thing about the gametes, and not the "organized to" superstition you retreat to when the thing about the gametes fails.
the people who argued this nonsense into your brain do not want to present their actual definition of "male" for scrutiny, because then it could be really challenged. they want to do this circular runaround forever until their interlocutors surrender or get bored.

>>43543313
You simply forget about this gender shit - and yes, "sex" means the same thing and is increasingly used as a proxy to enforce gender roles - and say to yourself, "I want to be this kind of person and do this kind of thing", and then judge what other kind of person is like that and adopt their label. It is not worth pissing about with the metaphysical nature of womanhood. Take your hormones, be cute, live a happy life, who cares if you're a man or a woman, you transcend traditional categories, we are all beautiful freaks and cissociety is in the wrong for hating us

>>43544102
a gun is made to shoot bullets
a gun that can not shoot bullets(for whatever reason) is still a gun
a defective gun is not suddenly a firehose because it cant shoot bullets properly
for trans women you are born with male genitals in 99% of cases + XY chromosomes which are organized(yes, organized) to faciliate the production of small gametes at some point

I swear im not trying to be difficult but is the answer really just "dont worry about it bro" + cope and just say youre female or that it doesnt matter
I already feel kinda ostracized from other trans people bc according to my ex my dysphoria is "above average" based on what theyve seen or smthn idk

>>43544021
gay men have a condition originating from the same source but to a lesser degree. Their sex center more closely resembles common female while the rest of the brain is largely male

the entire LGBT spectrum is basically different degrees of a neurological intersex condition

>>43544176
>That said, when lab grown uteruses are available, tested, and proven to be functional, I will accept that trans women can become female
here's one for you. if you accept the whole idea that female means "organized to produce large gametes", doesn't having a brain predisposed to choose to undergo that transition mean that you are female?

>>43544176
There are many cisgender women who, for one reason or another, lack a uterus. Women are not defined as walking wombs, and frankly, anyone who pushes this idea on you is a misogynist, and this does include all TERFs.

>>43544226
what? So I cant just be a normal woman then?
I dont know what this fascination with some trans people is with being third gender "freaks" or presenting transcending roles as something cool
in practice it just means being unpassing and very obviously queer looking

>>43544234
You can simply say you have a woman's brain and a male body. I mean, of course we all do. Normal people could not tolerate living like this, let alone enjoy it. As you have a woman's brain, you are a woman, and it is your body which is defective and needs correcting in order to affirm your gender.

>>43544255
Yes, none of us can ever be "normal women" and praying to be one will not work. Accept your status and move the fuck on. Embrace it, because we are not normal people, we will not ever be normal people, and we cannot ever be normal people.

>>43543313
>ok, does that mean trans women are men if put outside of society? that sucks.
Nah because "men" is a social construct

>>43544239
not really, if your chromosomal makeup + your genitalia + reproductive system(prostate and such) doesnt match it
at that point you are intersex which i would be ok with desu
i dont wanna be a man but i guess i can cope with being intersex

>>43544176
>when lab grown uteruses are available, tested, and proven to be functional, I will accept that trans women can become female
we can do that right now. Recent breakthroughs in stem cell research have mice growing new organs right in their own bodies. It'll be years before this is available to the public but we're on our way

>>43544305
We are obviously a form of intersex because we are all born weird compared to normal people. They TRIED forcing someone to transition, essentially to prove nobody needed to, and ended up proving that, no, you can actually fuck someone up by making them the wrong gender

Not to mention that HRT and surgery does physically push your body into an intersex state

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>>43544276
womp womp

>>43544332
the john money case is convincing i will admit

>>43544305
>not really, if your chromosomal makeup + your genitalia + reproductive system(prostate and such) doesnt match it
if you're not using any of that for its intended purpose and swap it out for the alternative at the first opportunity, that doesn't really seem like the organism as a whole was organized for it
>at that point you are intersex which i would be ok with desu
yeah i don't have a problem with taxonomizing trans women as a type of intersex women. i do think there's a sense in which it also makes sense to call us female but i don't consider it worth arguing about if somebody's already willing to treat us as intersex women. it's the "biologically male" label that starts to present actual material problems.

>>43544348
yeah but transphobes are literally retarded and also generally tend to be misogynists and don't understand consent

as a result they just see "transition bad" and that's it

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>>43543313
Man and woman were originally primitive catagories dividing domestic labour (what we might call reproductive labour but not limited to biological reproduction) from what we might call productive labour. It was distinct from but associated with biology and people of both "sexes" fell in each catagory.

After a large increase in the profit of productive labour put those in one of these catagories in greater power over the other, they reinforced the system to reinforce that power including by solidifying the association with sex.

This is all arbitrary and you are a sucker to let a social practice invented by guys whos peak technology was being lucky enough to stumble across meteoric iron define the social catagory that you exist in.

Read the origin of the family, private property, and the state.

>>43544486
fine ill read your books
i need to stop being a fake leftist
genuinely the only political books ive read

also i think ive cooled on my take and can cope properly now
im pleasantly surprised by how intellectual this thread was
are
Right Wing Women
Communist Manifesto
Capitalist Realism
Margin to Center
Amusing Ourselves to Death

And I agree with like 95+ percent of the ideas presented so idk how much value i got from it although they were still intriguing

>>43544564
I appreciate your ernest conversation. I would look for readings that emphasize dialetical materialism, "on dialectics" and "on contradiction" are also quite good on the topic

>>43544201
>the people who argued this nonsense into your brain do not want to present their actual definition of "male" for scrutiny, because then it could be really challenged.
NTA, but in addition to that they don't want to show their hand because it's easy for us to explain why the definition of male they're clinging to (chromosomes, SRY, axe wound, whatever) literally doesn't matter at all in everyday life for a transitioned post op trans woman.

>>43544234
>a gun is made to shoot bullets
a gun that can not shoot bullets(for whatever reason) is still a gun
that's not applicable to humans though, a more fitting comparison would be using caliber instead, both sexes are pistols, yet they are chambered in different calibers of ammunition. though nothing stops you from modifying your pistol to chamber the other's caliber and look and work functionally and visually identical to the other pistol, we just don't have the technology to load the pistol with the other's caliber of ammunition, but statistically most of us are display weapons that will never shoot anyway and there's plenty of pistols that can't shoot their own caliber either despite being manufactured from the very beggining to shoot it.

>>43545166
forgot to > the second line, whoops

>>43544065
>This isn't a perfect descriptor 100% of the time
Haven't you ever heard the saying 'there is an exception to every rule'? No descriptor is ever 100%, but its not society's problem when a tiny minority of people bitches about being different and treated as weird, you're supposed to ignore them and go about your normal business as a normal person.

Society is backsliding because we're being forced to acknowledge the feelings-based science being parroted by a mentally ill minority group as though any of it were factual and we all know its not. Moreover, nobody cares even if it were, we'd still want you out because you're not normal. Jesus ate with the lepers, but that was because he was an exceptionally good sport. Normal people don't want to be around it, they have 10,000 years of evolution telling them that weirdos and cultural outcasts are dangerous and what you don't know CAN kill you.

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>>43545626
>rightoid
>scared of the unknown like a faggy child
Every time

Also christ had a vagina when he died, kek

>>43545626
>but its not society's problem when a tiny minority of people bitches about being different and treated as weird
Honestly, wtf are you even talking about? "Bitches about being different?"

>>43543313
> why is a trans woman not a man?
Why is a pickle not a cucumber