sometimes i'm not sure what sounds worse>being an ftm who is seen by others as an infantilized and misguided childlike thing with no agency who can't make their own decisions, coupled with the fact that your lower anatomy guarantees that many cis men will still fetishize you as a woman who they can "fix" while nobody takes you seriously despite how much you've suffered>your worst "contemporaries" are cis women using your identity as a quirky label while doing nothing to actually represent it, which results in even less people taking you or your identity seriously.or >being an mtf and people only see you as a monstrous interloper who is a danger to every person they interact with and must be eradicated/cast out at any cost, coupled with the fact that your lower anatomy guarantees that many people will always see you as a potential threat and a predator despite everything you've done to prove otherwise>your worst "contemporaries" are ACTUAL predators who use your identity as a means to an end to invade women's spaces, which results in even less people trusting you and more people being wary when you're around them.
These realities are just societies views on males & females in its rawest form. That is what makes both options so grim. There is no worse one.
>>43623211mtfs do worse on basically all metrics and are much more likely to face social ostracization. ftms obviously face problems too, but are generally more likely to simply blend in.
>>43623985fair point but i would argue that mtf srs being actually decent while ftms don't have comparable options does help even out the weight of the social ostracization
>>43623211mtf definitely have it worse in a lot of wayst. ftm
>>43624045having slightly more functional fake genitals do not outweigh the propensity toward marginalization experienced by mtfs on average.
>>43624077fair enough, frankly i just felt like adding a point i initially forgot to include in my post
>>43623211I have less respect for the MTFs who are expected to be weak worthless masochists
>>43623211MTF is treated worse by society, FTM passes more easilyHOWEVER, being a dickless man is a worse and harder to fix defect than being a bedicked woman. It's easier for MTFs to become desirable women than for FTMs to become desirable men.
>>43623211>>being an ftm who is seen by others as an infantilized and misguided childlike thing with no agency who can't make their own decisions, coupled with the fact that your lower anatomy guarantees that many cis men will still fetishize you as a woman who they can "fix" while nobody takes you seriously despite how much you've suffered>>your worst "contemporaries" are cis women using your identity as a quirky label while doing nothing to actually represent it, which results in even less people taking you or your identity seriously.that's how i get treated but i'm a boymoder
>>43626489Well for one thing the goal of FTMs is to become respectable people, and the goal of MTFs is a degradation fetish so they can be seen as second class slaves
>>43626489came here to say this
>>43626605i think your taking the best of one group and the worst of the other and it makes for an unfair comparison
>>43626489Being a dickless man is a fate worse than death all ftms are women
>>43623211wow i wonder which is worse:1. waaa i dont get taken seriouslyor2. im gonna get fucking lynched if i dont pass
>>43626605The point of poonerism is fear of sexThe point of trannyism is desire to be wanted
>>43623211>>being an mtf and people only see you as a monstrous interloper who is a danger to every person they interact with and must be eradicated/cast out at any cost, coupled with the fact that your lower anatomy guarantees that many people will always see you as a potential threat and a predator despite everything you've done to prove otherwise>your worst "contemporaries" are ACTUAL predators who use your identity as a means to an end to invade women's spaces, which results in even less people trusting you and more people being wary when you're around them.OK, this is would be far worse and more scary for me. However I didn't have to go through any of this. It's either because I passed well and never wanted to reveal my history, or it was because other than such a small rural community in a time when transgender persons were unknown to the public and therefore I wouldn't be subject to this. Even if my transgender status was known the description you're giving here, would have not have applied to me because at that time, people thought trans women were just little gay males who couldn't deal with being male
>>43626737fair enough but i should add with the current political climate there is an unfortunate trend to more and more close minded people thinking this way, and the predators who try to use being trans as a smoke screen are definitely not helping since they are overrepresented in reactionary mediabut i'm glad you didn't have to go through that
>>43626651hm i probably could've embellished in the downsides of being ftm more but it would've been too verboseyet your rebuttal does actually lend to the issue that ftms face in that their issues aren't considered "real" or as important but they definitely phase physical scrutiny as much as the mtfs do.if i could add to the OP i would say>your very existence as a transgender man invites challenge from cis men who would seek to prove it wrong. either through sexual coercion or even life-threatening violence.
>>43626832>they definitely phase*they definitely facefuck i'm retarded
>>43626832>life threatening violencelike every other minority how special. the modern trans panic movement doesnt even fucking care about transmascs let alone acknowledge they exist. and if they are acknowledged, they are seen as harmless confused women and not labeled as rapist pedophiles. the amount of people that want to physically harm trans men is microscopic compared to the amount of people that want to physically harm trans women. they should be grateful no one cares about their identity, because when cisoids do care about your identity they stab you 30 times.
>>43626917i understand why you feel the way you do, i'm only taking part in an interesting thought exercise
>>43626974was a retarded ass "thought exercise".
>>43626651>2. im gonna get fucking lynched if i dont passTrannies wish that on each other. Why should I feel bad if that happens to them? They're fucking backstabbers.
>>43627027ok
>>43623211Seen by others: worse for FTMWorst contemporaries: worse for MTFIt's bias due to being ftm, but I am always curious to know that, if we theoretically remove the chance for violence, what are the downsides to being seen as a threat? Is that not wildly better than being seen as the victim?
>>43626791>overrepresented in reactionary mediaA lot of it is actually pushed by /lgbt/ itself, don't pretend to be two separate entities.
>>43623211>being an male and people only see you as a monstrous interloper who is a danger to every person they interact with and must be eradicated/cast out at any cost, coupled with the fact that your lower anatomy guarantees that many people will always see you as a potential threat and a predator despite everything you've done to prove otherwise This is just the amab experience.>>your worst "contemporaries" are ACTUAL predators who use your identity as a means to an end to invade women's spaces, which results in even less people trusting you and more people being wary when you're around them.This is what it means to be an amab. You being trans doesn't make you special. It just sucks because you didn't spec into anything that enjoys being seen as threatening>being an afab who is seen by others as an infantilized and misguided childlike thing with no agency who can't make their own decisions, coupled with the fact that your lower anatomy guarantees that many cis men will still fetishize you as a woman who they can "fix" while nobody takes you seriously despite how much you've suffered >>your worst "contemporaries" are cis women using your identity as a quirky label while doing nothing to actually represent it, which results in even less people taking you or your identity seriously. This is largely a better experience than the mtf one.>>43626974>i understand why you feel the way you do,Nta, but it's a thought, not a feeling.>>43626832>their issues aren't considered "real" or as important but they definitely face physical scrutiny as much as the mtfs do. In what sense? "What is a women" is what people argue about. Not "what is a man."
>>43627038>why should i feel bad if that happensfair enough, but you dont have to feel bad to recognize one is clearly way worse than the other.
>>43627058>A lot of it is actually pushed by /lgbt/ itselfeh i would argue a lot of what shows up here is just what trickles down from /pol/ and it's almost always posters doing so in bad faith, and they're likely not even queer>don't pretend to be two separate entities.i'm not pretending to be anything. i'm queer myself and i've never posted a reactionary thread on here, i usually just hide them.>>43627053i like your point, i think ultimately most (though obviously not all) of us don't face violence in our everyday lives so it lends to thinking strictly in terms of how we are percieved.is it better to not be taken seriously at all? or to be taken too seriously and be feared?
>>43627073The goals of FTMs is just more respectable, period. Being taken more seriously, seen as an equal human being. On the other hand even the MTFs enforce a harmful worldview that affects cis woman and in the end influences how even FTMs are perceived, that all proper women should be treated like infantilized and misguided childlike things with no agency who can't make their own decisions.
>>43627063i get what you mean but i can't help but feel it's reductive. when i speak of what mtfs face i look at how queers and gender-nonconforming amabs face further scrutiny from other amabs, namely because they're seen as predators who need to be brought to justice for example. it invites yet another layer of mistrust and fear on top of what an amab might already face.like i said, to lump all amabs into one category that's treated uniformly is reductive. there are plenty of cis men who aren't considered dangerous freaks or predators based off their sex alone. put a stereotypical "beta male" and an mtf who doesn't pass in the same crowd and i'm certain the latter will face more scrutiny than the former.
>>43627053>if we theoretically remove the chance for violence, what are the downsides to being seen as a threat? Is that not wildly better than being seen as the victim?Being seen as a threat is much worse, ontologically speaking. Being seen as a victim is only bad if it makes you look weak or damaged. Being seen as a threat is only "good" if it makes you look strong or powerful.Hence, when the Nazis organized people around the Jews, they made the Jews both a threat and also seem weak. Jews were not portrayed as victims. Or, think of white supremicists on black people. Blacks are simultaniously threats and also weak. You won't see them make out blacks as victims, and if they do it will always just be tentatively and in order to make them out to be weak.It's the same shit for black supremicists.It's the same shit for radfems. Picrel.Being a threat is bad on its own, without strength attatched to it. Being a victim is good on its own, without weakness attatched to it. All trans men have to overcome is not appearing weak. Trans women are just screwed no matter what they do, because they're a threat and will always have to compensate for it.
>>43627187wow that's actually a really good point tooi like how this thread is turning out lol
>>43627187MTFs act the same as radfems and they do it to themselves. They wouldn't transition in the first place if they didn't think being a male was dirty and evil.
>>43627179>it invites yet another layer of mistrust and fear on top of what an amab might already face. True, but it's just more of the same shit. If a man "invades" "women's" spaces by not sticking to his role as a living weapon/dildo/sex pest, then he fucked up being a rapist, so should be shamed, and he fucked up not being a rapist, so should be shamed even more for not raping people. It's ridiculous. >like i said, to lump all amabs into one category that's treated uniformly is reductiveLump any demographic into one category and it will be reductive. I thought that's what we were doing this thread, though? Being reductive?>there are plenty of cis men who aren't considered dangerous freaks or predators based off their sex alone."Not all men" when taken that way is a strawman of what it's meant to mean. Yes, some men aren't considered dangerous predators, because they've proven themselves otherwise by being exceptional and signaling that somehow, but all men are expected by others to be threats. Men are suspect, just because they're born with penises. And sadly, not even trans women can escape the misandry.>put a stereotypical "beta male" and an mtf who doesn't pass in the same crowd and i'm certain the latter will face more scrutiny than the former.What are they wearing? Is the trans woman trying to pass? If she just boymods, they'll be treated the same. If they enter the women's bathroom, they'll be treated the same. If they wear women's clothing, they'll be treated the same.Almost all the transphobia for trans women comes from people hating men already. They'sll tell you themselves. They think trans women are men. That's why they hate trans women so much. How dare a man be mistaken for someone of higher status and value as a human being. It's not just. We can't do that. We can't have the rapist class ruining the high trust victim class. Men should just pay us and deal with men's problems. Fuck trans women. They make this hard for us rehitorically.
>>43627187Hm, I get what you mean. >Being a threat is bad on its own, without strength attatched to itI can understand this being the main point into why MTFs might have it harder. If you're seen as a threat and can't fight for yourself, you're a walking target.>Being a victim is good on its own, without weakness attatched to itHowever I disagree with this. I think the problem comes down to trans men still holding that weakness since you can only really escape it after passing. For as long as an ftm still looks like a girl, there's no "strength" to push past the victimisation and infantilisation with.But it still always comes down to passing since a trans woman's goal to not be a threat is to be purely stealth. >>43627119As you said, it'd be extremely situation-dependent. I don't think there's a black and white answer and I believe it will always be something almost impossible to understand from the other side
>>43623912trvthnvke
>>43623211Why is it split down the middle? Shouldn't this be both combined???How are you being infantilized but not treated as a threat? How are you simply a threat but not infantilized?
