Yea ok do gender abolition and then qe can talk

>>43647745
if kids feel better with certain gender roles it shouldn't be stopped, but it shouldn't be conditioned either

no it's not actually

>>43647715
Trans people transition because they want to. The trans-free world that you dream of will never exist.

>>43647715
yeah

>>43647715
In a world without gender roles, more people would transition - as in, they would get HRT and stuff like that - because there is less pressure to conform to your birth gender. Think of it like when it became destigmatized to be left-handed. The reality doesn't change, 10% of people remain lefties, but this is not considered an important part of your identity. This would be a world far more accomodating to trannies than today's world. You are getting gender roles and gender identity confused. Gender roles are socially constructed but gender identity is biological and innate, and fixed.

>>43647715
Gender roles are biological and capitalists respond to customers, not other way around. The children are choosing the toys, if capitalists don't provide what children want they are out of business.
Why would evil capitalist toy makers divide genders? Wouldn't it be easier for them if there was no gender divide so they can sell toys to everyone instead of making different ones for males and females

>>43648341
They make more money selling to identities

See: Truck nuts, dude wipes

>>43647715
Playing with toy trucks doesn't mean I've subscribed to being a rapist gender and war draft.

>>43647914

You can't stop society from conditioning gender roles. Kids are incredibly fragile and impressionable. Society will condition them how it is going to and if their dysphoria is strong enough they will break the conditioning.

Something as simple as children of the same gender being interested in the same games and toys will do strong "conditioning" work. There's no stopping it.

>>43648341
more categories = more demographics, kids toys are sold to parents half the time anyway. you have a son so you buy him the blue toys, you have a daughter so you buy her the pink toys. boys grow up seeing commercials with boys just like them playing with trucks, girls grow up seeing commercials with dolls. they connect with the toy even if they wouldnt otherwise have an interest in it because theyre led to think "thats the one for me!"

Im not gonna lie i came here as a 30yo mtf detransitioner looking to ask for medical detrans advice, so i agree. I got on HRT self medicating at 16, and now i regret it. Im not gonna say people shouldnt transition, i agree with and respect trans people, but i think there should be more stringent mental health checks. Last thing you want is to be 30 years old and be weak, have weak bones cuz you cant produce T, cant perform sexually, and have huge tits and hip fat so you still have to dress like a boymoder. Listen to uncle anon, kids. Speak to a mental health professional first.

>>43649451

Mental health professionals (a.) Dont know shit and (b.) Support trans people more than trans people support themselves every time.

Every transition and detransition you go through is fated, the moment you have access to the internet and HRT. No doctor can change that.

Also side note but is being a feminized male really that mad? I'm an mtftmtf retransitioner and lately i've been fantasizing about being a feminized gay male on estrogen again. (I'm post op.)

>>43649474
Ngl big dawg that sounds like your fetish and thats on you. I dont want to be on estrogen anymore, i dont want to be a 'feminized' anything. I want top surgery to get rid of my tits and i want a test prescription but im not sure if theyll cover it where i am and I dont want to go through the whole humiliation ritual to ask for help just to be told its my own fault and itll cost me tens of thousands

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OP the type of dipshit to spend decades on the scientific study of gender and do controlled experiments where they put children alone in a white room with an assortment of toys and then have their entire worldview shattered and drink themselves to death when the girls pick up dollies and play out emotion-stories and the boys pick up trucks and trains

>>43647715
no, that's what causes BOTH trans AND cis to even exist as categories. yes, gender is a mistake.

>>43649494

Lol you think I have a fetish but asking your doctor for a basic medication is a humiliation ritual for you?

Are you SURE you detransitioned? Are you "hrtrepping?" Because lmao.

>>43649584
I am not. I quit estrogen a year ago, cut my hair off and switched back to a male wardrobe. I just dont think I can naturally produce T because i was on cypro from 16-24 and then injections 24-29

And yes, i think wanting to be a feminized male is fetishistic. A feminine male, sure, but that isnt the phrasing you used.

>>43649618

So you believe wanting to be what you most literally are currently would be fetishistic but that wanting to be more masculine or taking medical steps to become more masculine is not a fetish? What differentiates them? Would you consider it truly unhealthy to accept (feel positive about) yourself in your current state?

>>43647715
>Most trans are mtf

>>43649641
Yes? I dont want to be how i am now. Is that only okay when you're transitioning? I regret the decisions i made when i was younger and want to fix that, you are talking about being a "feminized male" which comes from ideals spurred on by all the weird femboy (fetish term btw) shit shoved down everyones throat for the last 15 years.

>>43649669

I was just asking. i've thought about it all a million times... obviously since I detranistioned before and still think about it from time to time.

I wasn't saying one is wrong i'm asking why do you think wanting to be a feminized male is a fetish and wanting to be a masculine male is not a fetish? Like in your view how do you know when you're feeling good about your body in a way that is un-tainted by fetishism?

To put it different way, if I detransition to male how woild I know i'm not just living out a forcemasc detransition fetish?

>>43649903
Being a masculine male is the natural state of being male... Testosterone is our native hormone, and desire to be a man, as a man, is the typical mindset. Wanting to be feminine or express femininity is fine too, but to specify "feminized" puts emphasis on the process or change, which is weird. Also it feels a little reductive when I struggle with that life specifically. I was specifically saying I wish I hadnt made the choices that lead to me being a "feminized" man.

>>43647715
are troons genuinely this retarded ?

>>43650143

But cis people say they don't "desire" to be their gender, they just "are." So if I don't naturally desire to be a man does that make me a woman? I assume not. Even when I fantasize about detransition I either think of it like "I just want to admit that i'm a feminine gay male" (and stay on HRT)

Or I think, "I want to take testosterone so I can go bald and get a beer belly and be a "ruined" gay bear and destroy any hope of being a woman"

But I never want to just be a normal ordinary biologically male man, how can one desire what is normal? To me, that feels like annihilation, there's no trace of what makes me "me"... whatever that is.

>>43650264
I just think i coulda been a cool hot dude before i medically castrated myself and grew breasts and grew my hair out, put womens clothes and makeup on, and debased myself for cis men who treated me like i was trash.

Im just chasing the white picket fence life, get married, settle down, enjoy being a man.

All instances of physical sex dysphoria are directly caused by gender/sex roles being too strict and rigid.

If we abolished gender and gender roles, trans people would not want to take hormones or become the opposite sex because it would be ok to be a feminine man or a masculine woman.

>>43649618
How did you go so long without realizing? Were you basically a cis repper the whole time?

>>43649494
>>43650294
It won't cost you tens of thousands if you just find some roided out dude at the gym and ask him for test. Steroids are cheap.

>>43647715
Yes and no
Gender stems from sex, two distinctly different roles in reproduction, both require different sets of abilities
Maybe not everything needs to be strictly gendered (I especially don't see why the love of beautiful things should be exclusive to the femalekind), but as long as biosex exists gender will too

>>43650730
I dont know... I started questioning if i really wanted it a while back, but I had a long term boyfriend so i kinda just pushed it out of my mind for a few years til he broke up with me and it didnt matter how i presented myself anymore.

Also id told everyone i was trans, and told myself, for so long. And i was scared if i detransitioned that i'd masculinize and then realise i actually was trans and regret it and be a boomerhon blah blah lol
>>43650765
Yeah, i could probably get hold of T, but I also was "blessed" with pretty good genetics for body shape lol. Id still need surgery.

>>43647715
Boys and girls play with different toys because they are different, not because of capitalism.

100% of trans are caused by the medical industry.

>>43650847
>100% of trans are caused by the medical industry.
this

there is (was?) an insane push for the past 40 years to medicalize normal childhood behavior in order to sell psychotropic medications to families under the pretension that risperidone, ritalin, adderall etc will somehow "force" the child to "behave" even though they're doing nothing wrong, really.
risperidone increases estradiol blood level, amphetamines make you fucking horny as hell and are highly addictive.
they gave this shit to kids as young as 5, including me. i grew breasts and my male puberty had to be surgically started. i was chemically female for over a decade because of pills forced on me because i was a "disruptive student".

the prussian schooling model must be obliterated

>>43647715
youre an idiot

>>43647715
If this was true, the immediate hypothesis we can derive is:
(p) If gender roles are more igidly enforced, them the proportion of transgender people increases.
Is this a sound idea?
Probably no.
Take, for example, ancient Rome or Athens- a society with notoriously, violently, legally enforced gender norms.
Do we see transgender people commonly in the record? No.
Furthermore, is there significant variation in people who express cross-gender interests, historically? Yes, but the causation is reverse of your claim. We can see this by (proto)-transgender people's liberties in their autonomy. Do, you have a sliding scale from eg. ancient Sumer, where you could basically only be transgender as a certain type of priest, to many progressive countries today.
Gender incongruence is a highly heritable trait, plausibly even more heritable than homosexuality. Its roots are likely to lie mostly in nature, and even a part of the nurture primarily modulates its expression.

>>43649386
Nonsense, differences in toy preference are cross-cultural, begin in infancy-to-early childhood, and are decently robust. Advanced cognition of social expectation does not exist at this age.

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oh my thread is still up, kewl

>>43648181
>>43650980
These posts are really good and get to the heart of what I was wondering: if kids aged 0-9 weren't sorted as strongly into 'pink team' and 'blue team', would dysphoric youth be more likely to come out or more likely to integrate their cross-gendered traits and rep? I believe in the following:
>toy preference is innate
>gender dysphoria is distributed on a spectrum
People often tell ftms "just be a tomboy" or mtfs "just be a feminine male" as a transphobic dismissal. Even if it was possible in the past, these aren't options anymore. Social media, and overexposure to advertising, and lookism force mildly dysphoric people to pick a side. A lot of enbies and teens (often girls) confusing their body dysmorphia for gender dysphoria come from this.
Whenever there are child beauty pageants on TV, or I see elementary school kids with heels and fake eyelashes and acrylics, or parents obsessively pushing boys into contact sports, I can't help but wonder if it's a good thing. In public I hear literal 12 year old boys talking about mewing and looksmaxxing.
My theory is much of transgenderism, outside of a core of people with very bad gender incongruence who will transition regardless, is a function of unnecessary sexual dimorphism put upon children and early teens. In puberty you have to pick a gender, and I don't believe in any age requirement for transitioning, because men and women have diverging paths in life. But I wonder if those adults are less complete people, with less of an understand of the other sex, because it was cordoned off from them in childhood?

>>43650301
>become the opposite sex because it would be ok to be a feminine man or a masculine woman.
I don't think it's ever going to be fully "ok" because most women simply aren't attracted to feminine men and vice versa. So they're not going to be able to find love and settle down like their peers. Was there ever a time in history where this wasn't the case?

>>43653127
sadly fujos love feminine gay men probably more than most men do
you would be totally surprised how many women are willing to overlook a man being a flamer

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>>43654852
wouldn't that be 2 ukes though? how does that work?

>>43655223
they expect you to do the fucking in exchange for basically everyone being nicer to you because people are horrible to single fem gay men and are magically nicer when you pair off with a woman

>>43647715
If we socialized boys and girls the same we would have far fewer societal issues
Bare minimum we need a proper matriarchy. Being a mother is 10x more moral than being a father

>>43655361
we have a matriarchy
that's what the current system is
any power men have is in spite of women

>>43655376
>any power men have is in spite of women
>no female american executive
>most state governors are men
>most state houses and senates are men
>most judges are men
>most cops are men
>most husbands get away with domestic violence
>most male celebrities get away with rape
>abortion illegal
>childhood marriage legal until recently
you might be coping

>>43650301
I want a penis because I want to be able to impregnate, sexually penetrate, and pee standing up, not because of gender roles. Same for all of the other practical aspects of the male body. Tards like you forget that sexed bodies come with actual physical consequences.

>>43655407
>women want a job where people are trying to kill you over and over when they can just lie down and pop out babies and shop and men hand them money for anything they need
>soft power doesn't exist
>women don't want men doing the politicking cuz they have no interest in that
>women want to be cops
LOL
women get away with rape and emotional abuse of men
people literally see women as INCAPABLE of committing serious crimes and capable of less overall malice than a man
>I can't kill my baby
>wah a man wants to take care of me and im not magical age 18

>>43655407
>actual culture is created by women but since men are publicly visible figureheads then let's call it patriarchy

>>43655441
social rules are created by women

>>43655438
>women get away with rape
if youre this upset about women getting away with rape wait until you hear about what men get away with
Ask a group of men how old they were their first time and they'll laugh
Ask a group of women and they'll get silent because you asked them to recall their rape
>kill my baby
so we just let rotting corpses decompose in the womb and kill the mother too, right? we let incest and rapists have their children too right?

>>43655584
women get away with far more than men do