HSTS is real too - women treated gay men better if they pretend to be a woman, because that means they are humiliated publicly and no longer a threat to the Matriarchy

it's easier to be trans than gay

hi. im agamp but not necessarily agp. the idea of being a feminized male is incredibly attractive, but being female is just pleasant and neat to me. transitioning to be one isnt taboo so its not arousing

>>44269773
It does exist but the problem is it's almost always used as a way to discredit trans people.
They use it in a way so they don't have to take you seriously, they also usually say all trans people have it, that's all being "trans" is to them, a fetish. This is pretty much the groundwork for TERF ideology.
When in reality, even being agp doesn't devalue you if you truly are trans and have dysphoria, and many trans people exist who aren't agp at all. In fact I would say most aren't.

>>44269804
trans people aren't real and don't exist
you are just mislabeled crossdressers

>>44269804
Nta but terfs don't actually believe in Blanchard's typology or if they do they don't care and only use AGP as a catch all insult.

>>44269810
you're larping but that just isn't true.
You can have a woman's identity and never dress stereotypically feminine.
They have actual dysphoria, which cannot be cured just by dressing feminine (duh)

>>44269773
you're probably right but the whole discussion is such a drag and a waste of time in the grand scheme of things. Especially for hrt femboys.
The old(er) distinction between transsexual and transgender made a lot more sense.
The more feminine I became, the more I enjoyed being with men sexually even though I always dated men. So now what? I'm agp-hsts simultaneously? And if yes, then so what? And if not, also so what?
That's what I mean by it being a waste of time.
And if I end up getting srs (very likely) then suddenly I have to call myself a transwoman (according to most on this board) even though I never saw myself as one and still don't? But why?
Meh.

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>>44269822

>>44269795
Even in Blanchard, AGP doesn't necessarily refer to arousal caused strictly by imagining oneself as an anatomical female:

>Autogynephilia, according to this hypothesis, may be manifested in a variety of ways, and fetishistic cross-dressing is only one of them. Those individuals labeled transvestites by contemporary clinicians would, on this view, be understood as autogynephiles whose only-or most prominent-symptom is sexual arousal in association with cross-dressing, and who have not (or not yet) become gender dysphoric. (Blanchard, 1989).

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>>44269804
TERFs don't understand the frameworks at hand in the first place. That's precisely why they are able to conjure up normative judgements ("all trans are evil") from completely descriptive statements ("non-homosexual transsexuals seem to experience arousal at the thought of themselves as female, etc.")

But anyway, the solution isn't to hide who you are, it's to fight for yourself. AGPs shouldn't live in self-delusion about the scientific and clinical work that has been done on them. The solution to someone who wants to kill you for being who you are is not to deny yourself and frame your moral attitudes on what they say, but to instead condemn them and fight back. It is never the right decision to deny who you are (especially not to yourself). One should eradicate all TERFs before he or she has to deny their AGP

>>44269837
i like overweight guys and wish i could be a hot bishounen chubby guy so make of that what you will

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Being AGP is the ultimate suffering. cis normies hate you, trannies hate you and try to deny your existence. The only camaraderie you can find is with other AGP who are too scared to talk about it due to above issues.

>>44269773
true but heres the kicker
cis women are agp too, some more, some less

>>44270140
they might be, but in general trannies experience AGP in a much more intense and focused way (at least when measured by variants of the Core Autogynephilia Scale)

>>44269955
I mean yeah it sucks but it's not that bad, most trannies are AGP too or at least sympathetic to it so as long as you don't mention the dreaded word or invoke the name of Blanchard in discussion you'll probably be fine.

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>>44269773
I don't fit the definition of AGP or of HSTS despite being a tranny. What am I l, then?

>>44270320
If you genuinely don't fall into either the agp or hsts type you're faketrans sorry.

>>44270320
not AGP and not HSTS. you don't have to think all trannies fit into AGP/HSTS to see that the empirical evidence for the existence AGP is sound

>>44270259
self-selection bias and even then transition milds this down

>>44269795
Agamp is a subtype of agp

>>44269825
That's called meta attraction which is weaponized against you by transbians

>>44269832
Your source is a xitter thread?

>>44269955
You rarely see HSTS anymore in places with good levels of acceptance of homosexuality. People keep confusing HSTS with Benjamin's primary transsexual. HSTS don't even see themselves as women, they're gay transmaxxers

>>44270320
I only like men but I didn't transition just to be with them.

>>44272080
Meant for >>44270332

>>44272080
probably still agp but who cares, if youre happy that way keep dating men

>>44269773
its a fetish for me. its always been a sexual thing. Purely an erotic thrill and thats it. Of course, I have no dysphoria, have a very active cishet sexlife and dont want to be a woman or believe I am a woman...

>>44272139
AGP isn't a blanket catch-all for "not HSTS".
Why do you assume I'm AGP?

>>44272197
Did you transition and/or get srs though?

>>44272279
fuck no. Im a dude. I just like wearing panties and being a lil slut for horny men on occasion.

>>44272197
the point was that AGP in the clinical literature is referred to either as a paraphilia or sometimes even as an orientation in and of itself, rather than just a "fetish". Autogynephilia in many cases, and especially for AGPs who possess "analloeroticism," seems to by itself comprise the sexual life of an individual, or at least an integral aspect of it, and is not simply a passing or secondary interest

>>44272411
>Autogynephilia

I have this I think , who should I be chasing in the market ? Hot trannies? femboy gays? all of the above?

>>44272411
>seems to by itself comprise the sexual life of an individual, or at least an integral aspect of it, and is not simply a passing or secondary interest

In my case, it is very much a secondary interest. I have a very active cishet normative sexlife and that is my primary desire and focus. Alas, being hypersexual since a wee lad, I have explored lots of erotic play and find its a lot easier to get sex with men as femboi than it is to get sex with women as a chadlet so I do indulge in that when I cant have sex with a women....if I cant be with a woman, its fun to larp as one for horny men.

>>44271971
>meta attraction
yet another meaningless term
I dated only men before taking estrogen? Faggot
I dated only men after taking estrogen? Meta attraction
Fuck that. Fuck these pseudo-concepts.

>>44272507
the theory allows for variation in intensity and type, Blanchard's typology being overtly rigid is basically just a meme propagated by people who don't want to look at the literature at all. I myself seem to both be AGP and also be very attracted to men like you (in fact I don't really want to ever have sexual relationships with women anymore), so there is definitely diversity in how AGP is manifested in people

>>44272580
I love women in everyway. I feel nothing for men. Men are just stunt cocks to make me feel closer to women. I could/would easily forego any sex with men for the right woman.

>>44272653
That's similar to how I used to feel too. I used to be attracted to men solely because sexual acts with them would trigger my AGP if I were to be in the "submissive" role. This is also described in the literature on AGP. Eventually I developed genuine romantic attraction towards men though, and now I seemingly lack the ability to desire romantic bonds with women

I think for me it started as a fetish even at, shit maybe even as young as 13, but fast forward to 32 where I'm just starting HRT last year and all the feelings just vanished. In fact if it wasn't for my gf being a total freak I wouldn't ever have sex cross my mind.

>>44272430
Anyone you find hot who won't hurt you (without your consent), it's a free world

>>44272696
welp, its a good thing I am older than you. Men are disgusting retards but some have nice cocks.

>>44272572
Don't get me wrong I agree, which is the reason I don't like those spaces, too judgemental and prone to lookism, and still revolve around who's more valid

>>44272696
>Eventually I developed genuine romantic attraction towards men though
How did that happen

>>44272696
Yeah same, men were an acquired taste for me, and my interest in women became low

>>44272698
my AGP developed when I was around 14 I think. I was feeling uncomfortable and dissatisfied on a vacation trip and I was VERY depressed during that time of my life, my fantasies during the time devolved into me thinking about being sexually abused, and eventually I thought "hey what if I was a girl being r-worded by a man", and there was no going back after that

>>44272802
a very charismatic guy talked to me a lot and was seemingly very interested in being friends with me, we eventually became best friends (or at least very close) and I developed the biggest crush I have ever had on anyone on him, in fact I'd say he's the only substantial crush I've ever had. he randomly stopped talking to me though and now i despise him. eventually i will eclipse him and he will know that i am better than him (idrc if this is malebrained, but i WILL surpass him)

>>44272909
That was a crush on a man, what about dating one?

>>44272936
i've had a handful of relationships but i've suspected all of them have been more interested in me sexually than romantically. i also never loved them too much even if i had feelings for them (nothing like the crush i had for the first one)

i am married but i still have agp, its a bit weird

>>44270320
I don't know which one I am either but I would rather have been a gay man if I would have got an erection for other end I've never been able to get an erection when I'm with a man I've never been with long and I never want to be with a woman because I don't like women's bodies. I don't know what the hell I am

>>44269773
Kys terf

>>44269773
Nope. Cope. Rope.

>>44273290
I literally called myself AGP and said being AGP is okay? ragebait needs to be better

>>44273199
>but I would rather have been a gay man
Are you trans then, anon?
>I've never been able to get an erection when I'm with a man I've never been with long
I think this is called demisexual (and btw is completely normal, a good 1/3 of people feel this way even towards the gender they're attracted to.)
>I don't know what the hell I am
My advice is to not worry about it. Blanchardism is really stupid and you should just do what makes you happy (as long as it doesn't hurt others.)

>>44273199
You are a gay man already. You just need to unlearn your homophobia. Stop taking estrogen and start taking tren

>>44269773
>(i) it doesn't matter if it is just normal female sexuality, it still exists, and (ii) there does seem to be a substantial disparity in how trannies and ciswomen experience AGP even if it is common among the two

okay? sure? but thats the point. i want to know whether and how my autosexuality is like cis women's. and how, if at all it can become more feminine. that seems like a much more interesting question to me than like "have you ever experienced arousal from wearing panties or are you a gay man?"

i also drgaf if "agp is okay." i dont care where i fit into a catalogue of male paraphilias or sexual orientations. the point for me is to be a woman and be treated as a woman.

>>44272729
>Men are disgusting retards but some have nice cocks.
kek

>>44269773
>real blanchardism has never been tried!
>hey ovarit, whatcha doin?
>blanchardism
>innocent TiMs

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>>44274082
>whether my autosexuality is like cis women's
it probably isn't

>>44274646
Nta but I got 3 points in the core agp test, does that mean I'm not?

>>44274676
your AGP is of a less intense degree than others, but if you experience it then you are AGP. the broad point is that in general, the focus and intensity MtFs have in their AGP does not seem to have a widespread parallel among ciswomen

>>44274716
I heard 3 points were in cis range though? Or at least hussie range

>>44274734
there's no point in delineating things in that manner, but if you look at the topmost chart here >>44274646 (source: Bailey & Hsu, 2022), you'll see that the mean for ciswomen just barely approaches 1.5-2

>No relevant author describes AGP as a "fetish".
No relevant author ever mentions AGP

>>44274794
Nta but I thought Blanchard noted that AGP weakened the more you live as a woman?

>>44274834
Men Trapped in Men's Bodies: Narratives of Autogynephilic Transsexualism

>>44274870
Exactly, no relevant author

>>44274885
JK Rowling then

>>44269773
even if the concept of AGP is legitimate in some way, the term has been extrapolated to include so much female-normative social behavior that drawing any conclusions based upon it is ;largely meaningless. the moment your understanding delves into a dichotomy of agp between ciswoman and trans women experience it, and presumably you as an hrt femboy experience it, is the moment the term is being used too broadly. AGP fundamentally referred to men, and referred to an explicit fetishization for the purposes of sexual gratification. but we have bitches on here that are like "omg am i agp for thinking i don't fucking hate myself?" also it doesn't actually benefit trannies to accept the existence of agp, its pretty much always used as a bludgeon against trannies to justify discrimination and deny our existence as a whole outside of tttt

>>44274896
Lmao she's not even a researcher

>>44274998
AGP is completely legitimate as a concept. Blanchard and Anne Lawrence definitely proved it's existence through statistics.
>>44275076
Anne Lawrence is and you said her work was invalid

>>44275227
>AGP is completely legitimate as a concept.
ok so question, if hsts exists on the other side of this typology, which we admit seek gender affirming care sooner, and are often more feminine, thus more womanly/cis acting etc, but we also admit agp is a normal part of experiencing attraction as a cis woman, isn't that contradictory? Like why would fetishistic men (agp) exhibit a normative cis woman trait more than doll trannies do (hsts)

>>44275881
I don't consider myself to be a doll. I wish I had been a gay man that I just didn't have the body for they just didn't like me sexually. I think gay men have a lot more fun than women

>>44270320
no one fits into the agp or hsts types described by blanchard because the typology is batshit insane and based on absolutely nothing. this isnt even a contentious topic anywhere except 4chan and ovarit. theres only one type of transgender woman: transgender woman. everything else is humans being different from each other and doesnt fall neatly into some kind of "types". OBVIOUSLY. sigh. i really shouldnt come here almost everyone here is stupid or crazy or both

>>44276011
>i really shouldnt come here almost everyone here is stupid or crazy or both
nta but that's why/how this board stays stupid and crazy. Because non-crazy and non-autistic people keep on leaving.
IKTF. I sometimes get upset by the weird shit on the board. But there's always a gem and it's always better to impart wisdom than not to.

>>44276011
I agree I think every transgender woman is a homosexual man who's super feminine. The ones who are beat up by their parents to come to agps and then ones that are treated well by their parents or their parents are in different to them like mine were come out hsts

>>44273455
I don't need to unlearn a homophobia because I'd rather be a homosexual man. I just was any good at it I'm better off being a woman

>>44269773
Agp is fake and those who affirm it are just coping.

>>44275227
Lawrence never did research, did you even read the book?

>>44276166
then how would you describe me getting an erection from imagining myself as a woman

>>44276194
Interviews from trannies. Testimony from people who studied trannies. -not research.

Whipping Girl by Julia Serrano - research

>>44269773
I'm not attracted to men, and I don't get off on the idea of being a woman.

>>44276348
I would describe it as
a) A lie &
b) not enough to codify a category of trans women on.

>>44276702
it's not a lie, it's been happening since I was 13 and hit puberty.

>>44276702
I don't believe in the dichotomy but enough people have described AGP experiences that I refuse to dismiss them out of hand.
Don't make me post the peeing through pantyhose to simulate female urination quote again.

>>44270140
tourist here
do cis men not get gender euphoria then? when I do extra manly shit like lumberjack stuff I feel extra manly but its not sexually arousing

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>>44277039
No we do not. Gay men get euphoria from body building but that isn't aap or abnormal either. The entire trans/castrated experience is a sexual homophobic fetish.
>>44277016
Trans aren't AGP. It's impossible for trans to be wombyn. Instead you are men who hate other men.
>>44276481
Indeed you are a homophobic straight man.

>>44277070
>There are a lot of gay men out there who are gay men as a consolation prize because they couldn't be women.
Is that certainly true of you? Is that why you're getting hair removed for SRS?

>>44277244
Who do you think I am?
>>44274834
I did. My research is entirely about AGP
>>44272729
Homophobia

>>44277281
Here's 38639 >>44273042

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>>44277303
Whatever. You got me. I am not that other guy though. And file names are basically random. You could choose whatever you want. And I wanted them to be close to each other to pop your Schizophrenia. I was seriously considering making them the same number as the screenshot.

>>44277383
For the amount of time you spend larping you'd think you'd be way better at it.
Anyway I hope your srs is complication free and you can finally be the woman you always wanted to be.

I love how no one who opposed the idea of AGP actually made any real arguments at all, just
>um, hon! what if someone doesn't fit neatly into the AGP-HSTS dichotomy? this clearly must mean that the concept of AGP is completely without explanatory power!
or
>you're insane and retarded (which isn't an argument)

whatever. those who are committed to using modern academic literature to actually learn more about the world and themselves are a small subset of the population, and this sadly holds both for trannies and cissoids regardless of how different we are from cis people

>>44276011
"No one fits" into autogynephilia even though it's based precisely on the trannies Blanchard studied, right. That sure is why Moser (2010), who is a critic of the typology, has to still concede that autogynephilia does exist. It's clearly not replicable, even though Nuttbrock et al. (2010), which is also a critique of Blanchard's framework, finds that AGP is a good (if still not deterministic) factor in sexual development:

>Consistent with Blanchard, we observed strong associations between three measurements of sexual orientation and different measurements of transvestic fetishism. The lifetime prevalence of transvestic fetishism was approximately three times higher among the non-homosexuals (69%) as compared to the homosexuals (23%) and significant differences across sexual orientation were also observed for lifecourse specified transvestic fetishism. These associations were strong but clearly not deterministic, however. Significant numbers of participants reported transvestic fetishism at odds with Blanchard’s predictions (23% of the homosexuals reported transvestic fetishism; 27% of the non-homosexuals did not report transvestic fetishism).

At best, Blanchard is wrong for couching his theory in far too deterministic terms (even if this is what he actually intended on), but that AGP exists still remains certain.

>>44278928
>agp
>modern academic literature
LMAO!

>>44279045
Keeping in mind that if you're talking about transvestic fetishism you're not talking about agp anymore so nothing from that can be supportive of agp.

>>44280052

Blanchard explicitly defines transvestic tendencies as being AGP in his work >>44269837. "AGP" doesn't have to refer to some rigid kind of arousal pattern (especially with how fluid sexuality actually is concretely speaking).

>LMAO!

Can you tell me which works you're relying on for your denial of the existence of AGP? Surely you must know of some very substantial and well-founded critiques to be laughing at the mere idea of AGP being studied in academic literature (which it already has been, merely denying it won't make the phenomenon or the studies on it non-existent)

>>44280266
I am AGP and I am so tired of all the denial surrounding it.

>>44269773
AGP is outdated, sorry

>>44280279
Same. I think the denial is either borne out of pure ignorance or a genuinely self-hating mindset where being AGP is somehow seen as disgusting or at least lesser to some extent. People will literally dogmatically deny scientific/clinical work being done that is relevant to them before they learn self-acceptance

>>44280266
>Blanchard explicitly defines transvestic tendencies as being AGP in his work
Funny how you go from transvestic fetishism to transvestic tendencies here.

>Can you tell me which works you're relying on for your denial of the existence of AGP?
That's the point! There is no modern literature supporting agp!

>which it already has been
No it hasn't

>>44280324
I just recognize it in myself. It explains me completely. I'd transition if I could make it, so I am not even using it as an excuse.

>>44280345
>Funny how you ...

Right, "transvestic fetishism" would have applied better anyway. Not sure where the critique is!

>There is no modern literature supporting AGP

I asked you for the literature you've read on the topic that leads you to this conclusion. There are modern studies on AGP (see, e.g., Bailey & Hsu, 2022). Because even most critics of AGP (e.g., Moser) acknowledge that it seems to exist as a phenomenon

>which it already has been

Literally see any of Blanchard's study, or the other aforementioned study, or any of the other studies I mentioned in this thread? If you're not interested in genuine discussion then I have no interest in replying to you

>>44280348
>I'd transition if I could make it
Just HRTrepp if you can. Being a man on estrogen is a trillion times preferable than seeing your body be ruined by testosterone (even if you have no dysphoria, having an estrogenised body is just better)

>>44280369
>having an estrogenised body is just better
What do you mean?

>>44280358
> Not sure where the critique is!
There is no critique I was just noting that you were completely conceding the point!

>I asked you for the literature you've read on the topic that leads you to this conclusion.

I don't need literature to determine that there is no literature

>There are modern studies on AGP
No there aren't

>>44281895
I'm not sure if you know this, but just covering your ears and screaming "NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO!!!!" isn't an argument.

if you say it the 100th time maybe it'll become true!

>>44281930
So why do you keep using it as one?

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>>44281997
at least try to make the ragebait engaging this is just monotonous

>>44282094
if you say it the 100th time maybe it'll become true!

>>44269773
>(i) it doesn't matter if it is just normal female sexuality, it still exists,
true
>(ii) there does seem to be a substantial disparity
no there isnt lol. the "disparity" is in experiencing it "as a women" vs "as a transwomen"

>>44269773
all women are AGP

>>44283470
>"there isn't a disparity but actually there is one"

>>44283627
thats not a disparity thats a semantic difference. cis women "dont experience agp" if you exclusively define it as a phenomena experienced by trans women, no shit

>>44269773
>t. AGP HRT femboy
Hey cisfaggot here, I don't really get it do you like to imagine yourself as woman, while I fuck you? Do you also want to have boobs and a vagina? How can you identify as femboy then? Or do I get it wrong? Or is the feminization part and being submissive enough? Hmmm... I don't get it, because the applies for a lot of bottoms, they like to be called a bitch and be treated as sex doll sometimes.

What exactly is AGP? I feel like a femboy with AGP would be trans. Idk...

Agp conclusively does not exist.

>>44280324
Definitely this. Also they hear AGP used as a slur by terfs and such so they ignorantly and reflexively deny the existence of the thing, rather than realizing there is nothing wrong with AGP

>>44287665
Or maybe it's just that it's absurd to think that 'agp' can capture any non-straight trans women. Literally no word can accurately describe so broad a group unless the ONLY meaning of that word is that you aren't straight.

>>44287779
I don't consider AGP to describe every non-straight trans woman. Not all AGP's are trans and not all non-straight trans women are AGP. AGP describes my experience exactly so I find it somewhat offensive for people to flatly deny its existence. It ok if it's not your experience but it is mine.

>>44287996
It's not your experience. And even if it were (it isn't) that would not make it a valid categorization of trans women.

>>44274646
>posts charts with no context damn... i guess ive been owned lol. YWNBAW!! doesnt really address my question though. How does female autosexuality work, how does it compare to autogynephilia? I know youre itching for some mic drop le trannies owned moment here but I truly don't care about that. I'll do whatever it fuckin takes. Waterboarding. Electroshock therapy. To make my big ugly ogrehon bar chart look more like the cis woman bar chart. #GrowthMindset

>>44288131
>deleted the line break
kms

>>44270230
>>44274716
same anon btw, would you care to flesh out what you mean by focus and intensity? from your familiarity with this body of scholarship, is that how you think overall the difference between agp and cisfem sexuality would be characterized?

>>44279045
> "No one fits" into autogynephilia even though it's based precisely on the trannies Blanchard studied, right.

I mean, that's not that farfetched of an idea. You're doing psych research on a heavily stigmatized population that has had thousands of evidence-based crackpot theories written about it. Psychoanalysts used to think MtFs were all psychotic. A lot of people nowadays believe in man and woman brains. Tranny research is like a rorschach test for the biases of the researcher than anything objective about trans women.

>>44269773
>t. AGP HRT femboy
there's your problem. you have no skin in the game. some of us are trying live as women. youre trying to jack off in shein dresses.

>>44288219
>implying half of troons aren't jerking off in Amazon essentials

>>44288131
It's from Bailey & Hsu (2022) which is a study on whether natal females have autogynephilia. The finding is that they score very low on the CAS relative to autogynephilic natal males. So if ciswomen have AGP, it diverges in many ways from AGP AMABs

I have no clue why you think I want a "mic drop trannies owned" moment or want to sa that "YWNBAW" when I'm literally an AGP on estrogen. I wasn't being ironic when I wrote "t. AGP HRT femboy" in the OP

>>44288212
>Psychoanalysts used to think MtFs were all psychotic.

Yes, but not in the way you think. They thought of us as being extremely feminine man who couldn't cope with the male sex role.
Transsexuals for feminine men who could not adjust to living as men.
Originally it wasn't about sex though all transsexuals were homosexual but they weren't really able to live his homosexual men so they became asexual women

>>44288219
how is this a criticism? AGP forms a very important part of my sexual being, so people denying it does mean me having a skin in the game. furthermore, the matter is a purely objective one, my having a particular position doesn't give me an epistemically disadvantaged position

>jerking off in shein dresses
have you ever been in any trans space outside of 4chan? that's precisely what a lot of trannies do, and some can be very annoying about it. MtFs describe sexual arousal from "gender euphoria" all the time online

>>44288171
strictly speaking I think I'm undecided on whether ciswomen have AGP, but if they *do* have it, it differs from what male AGPs have (at least when measured by variants of the CAS) >>44288247
>>44274646

>>44288264
Transsexuals, originally did not transition for sexual reasons they were neither hsts nor AGP.

>>44288264
>furthermore, the matter is a purely objective one, my having a particular position doesn't give me an epistemically disadvantaged position
kinda does. it means you dont get the experience of someone who actually seriously wants to be a woman. you get the experience of somebody who jacks off to the idea of being a woman in your shein dress, and then puts on your serious hat and says "i'm a man! in a man's body!" so, sure, you can be agp i guess, but trans women generally aren't lol.

>>44288247
>So if ciswomen have AGP, it diverges in many ways from AGP AMABs
the way it diverges, according to the paper, is not a matter of "focus and intensity" btw, but a matter of the relative importance of an "interpersonal element," i.e. another person who finds the subject attractive. it would be helpful if you used language from the papers themselves going forward. Mozer's work, quoted in the paper, found a substantial portion of cis women were AGP, but his questions included an interpersonal element.

again i think this work is interesting but it could benefit from more engagement with psychoanalytic literature. the idea that these anons keep insisting on that most cis women are agp doesnt come from nowhere. feminine narcissism, autosexuality, and homosexuality is an easily observable fact and one that Freud explores extensively in his Dora case study for example. for Dora, for example, the men in her life functioned as something like props for her sexual interest in women's bodies and in herself as a woman.

I think the study you've quoted highlights an important difference between typical gynephilic mtf and female autosexuality, but it's a difference in repression. straight cis women, for whatever reason, need their little boydolls to act out their fantasies of becoming women. For whatever reason, a lot of transwomen do not... I wonder how we fix that...

>>44288323
No one spoke on whether "transwomen are generally AGP" (whatever that is supposed to concretely imply about transsexualism). The point was that AGP exists as a real phenomenon and that there are trans AGPs (even if ciswomen have some form of it too). Insofar as I am AGP and on HRT, I do experience what MtF AGPs do, the difference lying in the fact that I'm not as dysphoric as they are (and hence don't necessarily want to be a woman, though it would be nice).

I don't want to be a "man in a man's body" either. I would hate a man's body, which is why I'm on estrogen, and I don't see myself as a man at all (I might just be non-binary I think).

>>44288392
I also wonder somewhat about the limits of a study based on self-reports from study subjects. particularly one that asks questions like "Have you
ever become sexually aroused while picturing yourself having a nude female body or with certain features of the nude
female form?” MtFs could answer yes to this question because they implicitly understand that having a female form would make them more attractive in an interpersonal context.

the study says "To be sure, most natal females may find the idea of endorsing this item to be odd, but so may most natal males," which to me seems to ignore the possible skewing effects of the social ogre-ification of the mtf body. the fact that having a transfem body consistently portrayed as disgusting, and/or undesirable in an interpersonal context. that's also not something "most males" have to experience. that only affects mtfs.

>>44288403
>I don't want to be a "man in a man's body" either.
isn't that exactly what anne lawrence says you are? and, for that matter j michael bailey? isn't that what youve been claiming this whole time? that your sexuality is distinctly male, and that's okay? that would make you... a man in a man's body, wouldn't it?

>>44288461
1. I mentioned a *desire* to not be male. Never did I make any claim whatsoever about whether I was a man or not

2. I don't know about Bailey's personal views on this end and I don't really care about whether Lawrence sees AGPs as males or not. My use of an author's professional work does not constitute a commitment to all of their philosophical views

>>44288264
>that's precisely what a lot of trannies do
At least try to make the lies believable.

>AGP forms a very important part of my sexual being
And that's fine. No one here cares about the existence of a fetish in any specific person. We care about that fetish being aimed as an explanation and categorization for some significant subset of trans women.

>>44288403
>AGP exists as a real phenomenon
No it doesn't, and you keep trying to use agp as a fetish (which the mere existence of wouldn't be so far fetched - fetishes for floor tiles are literally a thing - but there would be no greater prevalence of it in trans women) to try to justify agp as a categorization and explanation for trans women.

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>>44288392
I am aware that this is their critique of Moser 2009's item content. This is precisely a confirmation of what I said, however; even *if* ciswomen have AGP, the autogynephilia of male AGPs differs in that (a) its focus is on the act or being of a woman (or feminine in general) as such, rather than necessarily involving an interpersonal element (although it can in what is called "pseudobisexuality), and (b) this arousal form is usually also much more intense for male AGPs as measured by the CAS

I can't really speak on psychoanalysis

>>44288562
I explicitly write that no one in the literature describes AGP as a "fetish" in the very first line of the OP. If you do have an argument, you can form a critique of any of the studies I have cited >>44279045 >>44288247 but so far all you've done is just deny that AGP exists (which simply doesn't hold up to the evidence, Moser (2010) accedes to the existence of AGP despite being a critic of Blanchard's in that very paper, and Nuttbrock et al. (2010) also similarly replicate a large difference in transvestic fetishism between homosexual and non-homosexual fetishism, despite also wanting to explicitly critique Blanchard)

at best, one can say that AGP is only part of the picture, rather than the whole picture (I'd agree completely), but it *is* a part of the picture, and denial of this explicitly hinders people's self-understanding

>>44288651
>a large difference in transvestic fetishism between homosexual and non-homosexual fetishism
I meant "between homosexual and non-homosexual MtFs", excuse me for being retarded

>>44288651
Yes I am aware you keep calling it not a fetish while using the logic of it being a fetish.

>>44288750
What is the "logic of it being a fetish" and how do I use it?

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>>44269773
Yes a lot of trannies have agp but so what?
They are doing what makes them happy. Why should anyone deny happiness to anyone?
To want to deny an agp her happiness is the same as the retards who want to deny my happiness as a lolicon stroking my bi chuddie dick to anime lolis.

>>44288756
The logic of it being a fetish is the idea 'getting turned on by thoughts of being female is a thing that can theoretically happen to people' and the way you use it is using that to legitimize the completely separate idea 'there is a proper separable category of trans women for whom being attracted to themselves as women is a core part of their identity (within which further assumptions about them will be made)'

Agp is absolutely NOT part of the picture and telling trans women that it is only hinders their self understanding.

>>44288789
None of this relates to what a "fetish" is in opposition to a paraphilia or an orientation in and of itself. But such a category definitely *does* exist, have you read *any* of the studies I mentioned? What is your critique?

>>44288780
Based cunny chad

>>44288994
The point is that it's not about whether it's a fetish and I don't care either way; it's about the logic you're using and how it pertains to your arguments.

The category very much does NOT exist.

>>44280279
I just wish it were like homosexuality, acknowledged as real and a valid sexual orientation, so I don't have to be alllohet to make everyone else comfortable.

>>44288994
And of COURSE none of it was in relation to what a fetish is in opposition to a paraphilia or an orientation in and of itself because the question I was answering wasn't either!

>>44289220
Literally you already don't have to; just stop trying to make it a category.

>>44269955
>only camaraderie you can find is with other AGP
in the fag bag?

>>44270320
are you troon because of physiological causes?

>>44288120
>It's not your experience.
Fuck you kill yourself

>>44269837
Blanchard never did understand true transsexualism

>>44270334
ture transsexuals are not hsts or AGP

>>44290926
Fuck you right back.

>>44289217
The point was that the literature describes AGP as either a paraphilia or an orientation. I have no clue why you refuse to even address any of the studies I've cited. I ask you again, have you read any of the relevant literature?

>>44289238
Stop trying to make it a category when multitudes of people fit it in the studies done?

>>44291540
Have you read this?
Primary TranssexualsLifelong pattern: Cross-gender identity is apparent from early childhood and remains constant.Progressive impulse: The desire to transition is strong, clear, and steady over time.Sexual orientation: They show little sexual deviation or focus, often acting as asexual or outside traditional orientation tracks during development.Secondary TranssexualsLater onset: Transition urges surface later in life, following active periods of homosexuality or transvestism.Trigger factors: Transition develops as a response to severe psychological or social stress and past adaptation struggles.Subcategories: Divided into homosexual transsexuals (HSTS) and transvestitic transsexuals (AGP-associated concepts), where previous sexual behaviors or cross-dressing evolve into a transsexual identity under pressure

>>44278928
Funny how this *still* hasn't changed. People who deny AGP literally have nothing at all to stand on when faced with the relevant sexological literature

>>44291574
I was never agp or hsts because I never had a sex drive. I was a primary transsexual who believed I was a female and still believe I'm a genetic female even though I can say it one time I must be outside of the definition yet when I'm faced with my own reality I insist upon being a biological woman. This is a mental illness

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>>44269773
i am neither sexually aroused by being perceived as a woman(i think thats what agp means?) nor sexually attracted to men(or women that much tbhon). i am free.

>>44291562
what does this (AI?) paragraph have to do with me asking you to deal with the relevant literature

>>44269773
Honestly as someone who used to take this Blanchard shit extremely seriously, don't. It's an outdated attempt to categorize trans women, if you find it personally useful then use it and engage with it, but don't take this stuff all too seriously at the end of the day.

>>44291615
I don't take it "extremely seriously", it's just an interest I have. I don't even identify as a "Blanchardian" necessarily. I'm not sure how it's "outdated" though. What was the research that conclusively replaced it such that it is now "outdated"?

>>44291614
Because it's more relevant than the really sure you're looking at. This came before your Blanchard theories and is much more accurate because transsexuals believe they are female from birth and never dispute it or will never understand anyone else's disputing it

>>44291557
>multitudes of people fit it in the studies done
No they don't

>>44291540
No it wasn't the point at all. The point was about your logic not whether agp should or should not be considered a paraphilia(assuming it indeed exists). Like I said, whether agp is a paraphilia is completely irrelevant.

>>44291655
Ray Blanchard did not understand primary transsexualism

>>44291676
AGP is just a modern term for sexual transvestism, where a male is turned on by putting on the clothes typical for a woman

>>44291676
>No they don't
Which studies have you read on AGP?

>it wasn't the point at all
it was *my* point, not yours >>44272411

>>44291717
I get the general idea of what agp is. As long as you aren't trying to use it as a category for trans women who cares. It does not at all describe what it means to be a non-homosexual

>>44291655
It's a theory from the 1980s, even back then it wasn't airtight much less now. I genuinely don't have a personal problem with Blanchard or the typology I just don't think it makes an accurate description ultimately. I wish it did since that would make gender dysphoria and being trans easier to understand for me, but it just doesn't.

>>44291733
We aren't talking about YOUR point here, we're talking about MY point that agp existing as a real phenomenon isn't a thing.

>>44291769
We're having a mutual discussion, I reserve the right to elucidate my position when I feel that it should be.

Not sure why you're dodging the question of which studies on AGP you've read and why you find them to be wrong :)

>>44291743
I have SRS many years ago and I've never been a trans woman. I am a transsexual

>>44291789
AGP and hsts are types of secondary transsexuals. Today they're probably called trans women when they transition. You can always tell the difference because they will always see themselves as masculine or transsexual will never see herself as masculine

>>44291789
No you went about off YOUR POINT in response to post explicitly about MY POINT. You are factually incorrect.

>>44291792
There is absolutely no separation between transsexual and trans women. If you are one, you are the other. Because they are the same thing.

>>44291819
In modern terminology yes because modern terminology is dictated by consensus not by some higher notion of absolute fact. Still it is true, if you're a primary transsexual you do not see yourself as ever being male or masculine. If you read the literature you'll realize it's impossible for a transsexual to see herself as like a male

>>44291819
Why are you being pedantic and trying to have a metadiscussion when the more relevant question has been repeatedly asked more than once: which studies have you read on AGP and why do you reject the ones that are in support of it?

>>44291840
That's not a relevant question.

>>44291830
There is no such thing as primary or secondary transsexuals. There is no special subcategory like what you are trying to describe.

>>44291869
So basically you've probably read nothing on AGP and are saying whatever you want? >>44291574 I'm proven right again

>>44291869
Oh yes there is. Look at everybody who post on here they're always saying they want to be feminine but they look masculine to themselves. That's a different category than people who see themselves as feminine and female regardless of their state of birth. Transsexuals are not trans women

>>44291913
You've long since been proven wrong.

>>44291913
ATP is a type of secondary transsexualism or transgenderism if you prefer where the individual has an erotic attachment to cross-dressing the old term was transvestite or sexual transvestism

>>44291929
There's no such thing as secondary transsexualism

>>44291918
Oh no there is not. Transsexuals are trans women.

>>44291925
Proven wrong with what? You seemingly haven't done any research at all, you're either ragebaiting or are complicit in your own ignorance (I feel sorry for you if it is the latter)

>>44291937
Yes to your 2026 outlook you're probably right, but it wasn't like that when I transitioned. And it still isn't the same, otherwise I would be like a trans woman and think I looked masculine. I can't imagine it. How many women who are maybe considered masculine looking by consensus public standards see themselves as men and think they should dress up like men? How many women think that they're men because they are not attractive?

>>44291943
Agp existing as a meaningful categorization of trans women

>>44291973
To all outlooks throughout history there is no primary or secondary separation to transsexualism and transsexuals are the same exact thing as trans women.

>>44291990
Yes and you're mine they're all the same because you're a product of your generation just like a product of my generation. I was diagnosed transsexual because I could not believe that I wasn't a female and still to this day think I am the biological woman and that's the difference because you don't really believe it like I do. You took a lie detector test you would not be able to pass

>>44291990
I'll make it more simple for you. Tell me in your own words, why does so many people come on the sport and say they want to be a woman but they don't look like women and they want to kill themselves? How come they don't think they look like women? Can you answer this question?

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>>44291990
Which you can't debate since you've read nothing on AGP. You're the same in tendency as chuds who think transwomen are all degenerates and don't actually experience any dysphoria

>>44292035
Because that's part of their dysphoria.

>>44292040
Yes I can.

Now that we admit that AGP exists (many cases) we should go on to admit that in most cases it is also autohebephilia.

>>44292079
Actually we just concluded that agp doesn't exist.

>>44292040
He does seem to be a little bit stupid. He doesn't understand the literature. I'm here to tell you that Ray Blanchard build most of his theories on psychoanalytic theory which were better than anything he came up
Ray Blanchard was not a psychoanalyst

>>44292097
He who? The person you're responding to? Weird to refer to him the third person.

>>44292079
wrong at least in my case.

>>44292118
Anon/nona is talking about you. Everyone can see that you're either baiting or genuinely stupid

>>44292143
Everyone here thinks I'm quite smart, anon is definitely not talking about that wouldn't make sense.

>>44292071
So you think dysphoria is a magic word which covers everything. It's a bullshit word. It used to be gender identity disorder, which you had in childhood. All real transsexuals i
have gid in childhood
The difference is transsexuals believe they are females transgenders believe they want to be female that's the difference

>>44292118
I was referring to the other person to somebody who I do not know as he maybe could have been she?

>>44292157
This is true because transsexuals are the same thing as transwomen and always have been and there has never been the separation you are trying to describe.

>transgenders believe they want to be female that's the difference
Transgenders also they are female. Because they are the same as transsexuals and there is no difference.

>>44292171
Yes. Op declared himself a femboy.

>>44292143
Yes I probably wasn't I'll apologize if it's really a she. It's just that an intellectual Arguments for you so use he when the person's sex identity is not known.
Ray Blanchard was correct about misunderstand of secondary transsexualism but he rejected the ideas of primary transexualism because he was dealing with a newer population which were not all psychotic individuals. Transgender people are usually not psychotic and just highly neurotic whereas transsexuals are always psychotic

>>44292205
>>44292143
You see? Even the poster says they weren't talking about me.

>>44292194
I'm describing stuff from the literature which was very prevalent in my time because I hadn't become politicized and people were much more intellectual in the past. People don't study transsexualism anymore because it's kind of a taboo. I just don't have the freedom of discourse we had back in the 1950s. It saddens me greatly that things have changed were

>>44292221
Because transsexualism is and always has been the same thing as transgenderism.

>>44292234
No you were arguing semantics. The word transsexualism was originally used to describe an illness where a male at Birth believed himself to be a female and could not be convinced otherwise. These males usually had other psychological difficulties and came to the psychologist or psychiatrist early on in childhood because it was obvious they were disabled. Now I can't explain this cuz I don't really understand but it seems like individuals of your type now describe themselves as being similar to the original transsexuals who are always mentally disabled. If you read about transsexuals from the 1930s or 1940s you'll see that most of them were described as psychotic individuals because they were unable to see themselves as their birth sex

>>44292234
It isn't because WPATH conceded to trannies like you who demedicalize and deregulated the meaning of transgender and transsexual.

>>44292156
>>44292213
Ok you are just ragebaiting

>>44292273
Yes I agree with what you're saying because it became political. I really can't imagine it. At first I couldn't believe it because I would people take on some kind of rare mental disorder and popularize it is beyond my imagination, yet here we are!

>>44292273
It is because they did that not because of any pressure but it's what's actually accurate.

>>44292270
>a male at Birth believed himself to be a female and could not be convinced otherwise

Are you even reading what you are typing? That proves transsexuals and trans women are and have always been the same thing. YOU are the one arguing semantics.

>>44292342
Holy fuck I need to stop typing so quickly, this post is horribly garbled.

>>44292291
Not even a little, what the fuck are you talking about?

>>44292342
There are kids on here constantly posting about how they feel they should be women but they don't look like women to themselves and they hate themselves for it. This may describe someone who is transgender woman but it doesn't describe a transsexual because the transsexual would never think they were male looking in any way or in any manner because that contradicts their illness

>>44292361
>it doesn't describe a transsexual
Yes it does, because transsexuals are the same thing as trans women.

>the transsexual would never think they were male looking in any way or in any manner because that contradicts their illness
Plenty of trans women think this way. Because trans women are the same thing as transsexuals.

>>44292395
Okay I think I understand your little game he'll just repeat the same disagreement over and over again without any embellishment about why you think the way you do. So I'll leave you with this one last thought. A transsexual does not ever see themselves as anything other than a genetic female a trans woman will see herself as a male physically and dislike it and that is the difference from the old Theory not from something to date.

Again here's the old Theory written by doctors.
Primary TranssexualsLifelong pattern: Cross-gender identity is apparent from early childhood and remains constant.Progressive impulse: The desire to transition is strong, clear, and steady over time.Sexual orientation: They show little sexual deviation or focus, often acting as asexual or outside traditional orientation tracks during development.Secondary TranssexualsLater onset: Transition urges surface later in life, following active periods of homosexuality or transvestism.Trigger factors: Transition develops as a response to severe psychological or social stress and past adaptation struggles.Subcategories: Divided into homosexual transsexuals (HSTS) and transvestitic transsexuals (AGP-associated concepts), where previous sexual behaviors or cross-dressing evolve into a transsexual identity under pressure

>>44269773
There are no relevant authors, at this point it is a religion, not a science.

>>44292409
>he'll just repeat the same disagreement over and over again without any embellishment
He who?

>trans woman will see herself as a male physically
No they won't

> transsexual does not ever see themselves as anything other than a genetic female
Yes they do.

>>44292424
You're just a childless person who can't debate anybody. You sir have a real problem with your ability to relate on an intellectual level no more from you

>>44292443
>childless
Gee go below the belt why don't you.

>You sir have a real problem with your ability to relate on an intellectual level no more from you
Sir who? Who are you talking about?

>>44292471
Obviously to you. You don't have any ability to understand anything beyond the most simple terms you are not capable of understanding intellectual discourse. Maybe you're a young boy I don't know but you seem like a very ignorant man

>>44292478
Lmao you have no idea how to argue. All you've done this whole time is assert that we should honor outdated research without so much as even STATING why.

You sir, are a childish person who can't debate anybody. You have a real problem with your ability to relate on an intellectual level no more from you.

You don't have any ability to understand anything beyond the most simple terms you are not capable of understanding intellectual discourse. Maybe you're a young boy I don't know but you seem like a very ignorant man

>>44292418
there is childhood agp though like pre 10 pre puberty

>>44292690
The best I understand is if you're transgender you are responding to a sexual feeling of being either homosexual, or transvestite. So, by implication, one would be responding to a sexual feeling, which differs from a primary transsexual who believes themselves to be a female from birth

>>44292918
oh so they're sexual yet they get the word transGENDER meanwhile others are not sexual but theyre called transsexual

>>44269773
AGP doesn't exist and its used to bash trannies that are happy with her womanhood.

>>44292992
AGP DOES exist BUT it's used to bash trannies that are happy with her womanhood

>>44292918
>believes themselves to be a female from birth
This also describes what you call transgenders.

>>44292969
Good point. I think it's because when they first started diagnosed people as transsexual, they only had the one word. It used to be diagnosed as a delusional disorder, with respect to sex identity.

>>44288545
this entire framework is based on the premise that transfems are fundamentally male, and approaches transition through a distinctively male sexuality. even the relatively more feminized HSTS is a homosexual transsexual, that is, he is conceptualized as a homosexual for his attraction to men (what sex does that make him?). As another example, Bailey (though Lawrence disagrees) classifies AGP as a paraphilia, which he describes as "unusual sexual interests" occurring almost exclusively in males. DSMIV and DSMV defines it as a

“recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors generally involving i) non-human objects, ii) the suffering or humiliation of oneself or one’s partner, or iii) children or other non-consenting persons that occur over a period of at least 6 months."

The typical laundry list of examples of paraphilias is basically identical to what in older psychiatric and psychoanalytic literature were called fetishes or perversions.

Part of my issue with all this is that you as a femboy basically have no stake in the legal and political battles right now over whether trans women will be allowed to continue to live as women. So when this literature latches onto culturally conditioned differences between trans and cis women and magnifies them into essential differences between males and females, you can point to it and go "oh wow :) my sexual fetish (idc if you don't call it that lol. 'paraphilia' is a PC term for 'fetish') is being affirmed" but you are not currently being stripped of your rights and dehumanized by this literature the way trans women are.

>>44293817
All secondary transsexuals are motivated by sexual interest to one degree or the other. The homosexual transsexual is motivated to change so they could be the female in a relationship with a man. The transvestite transsexual is motivated by the sexual desire to be seen and treated by others as a female. Primary transsexuals are motivated by an inability to perceive themselves as male. There are no such thing as female transsexuals

>>44293817
to add to this, it makes basically no difference whether "AGP is okay :))))" (unless youre an HRT femboy). most of the lawmakers and political groups using this terminology, even the TERF ones, think its fine to be a man in theory. They don't think it's fine to be a trans woman though, because a trans woman is a man (with a paraphilia) who thinks he's a woman and wants to live as a woman, and the researchers youve quoted have staked their entire careers on proving that this is the case. The logical conclusion of this stuff is trans eliminationism, regardless of whether you or the people youre citing are willing to acknowledge that fact, which is why most of them have publicly positioned themselves (with ample plausible deniability of course) as anti-woke darlings and victims of a leftist moral crusade. That doesn't make the framework wrong, but I'd appreciate if you owned up to what it means. You believe that TWAM who should be eliminated from public life because thats the easiest way for you to affirm your little sissy fetish.

>>44293858
sure, if you just totally eliminate the conceptual possibility of trans women being women from the get go then no mtfs are women. it's also impossible for the earth to orbit around the sun, because our theory has defined it as actually just the sun orbiting around the earth. that seems obvious enough.

>>44293967
Oh, none of them are biological, or genetic women. Even transsexuals are not genetic biological women; the difference is they believe they are genetic biological women and cannot conceive themselves otherwise. This is the definitive difference between transsexuals and transgender

>>44294008
Transsexuals and transgenders are identical and there is no difference between them. Every single thing you try to describe to separate them describes them both.

>>44294008
I would recommend reading Gennevieve Morel's "Sexual Ambiguities." The "primary transsexuals" youre talking about are delusional men, desperately trying to demy to themselves the real of sexual difference. Stoller's transsexuals are all psychotic. The idea of transitioning for nonsexual reasons is kind of nonsensical. You are changing *sex*. What can be nonsexual about that? I think a true trans must be someone with female sexuality. Not AGP, not HSTS, not a primary transsexual, but a natal male, who somehow has a female sexuality.

>>44294106
Just because it's your sexual structures that cause you pain does not make transition itself sexual. Our sexual differences continue to exist outside the context of sex, and so too our transitions exist outside the context of sex.

>>44294106
>primary transsexuals" youre talking about are delusional men

That's what makes some transsexual and not transgender because they believe they are genetic females.

>desperately trying to demy to themselves the real of sexual difference

Here's where you're making a mistake. They do not realize they are male, they believe they are biologically>>44294148
female.

>>44269773
agp is agp
hsts is hsts
trans is trans :)

>>44272909
he probably stopped talking to you because of your crush behavior

I'm transitioning into a woman because I want to be cute and desirable while having tits. AGP is obviously real and I don't understand how anyone could deny it's existence

>>44295701
Agp is obviously fake and I don't know how anyone could affirm it's existence.

>>44269795
>>44271960
All AGP are AGAMP actually. Because a male can not become a female. He can be feminized through exogenous means. Therefore he becomes through this a gynANDROmorph not a real female, that is a woman (gyn means female/women only)

>>44269773
You know why it's a fetish? Because it's a fantasy. Fetish means fantasy. And you do fantasize about feminizing yourself for sexual reasons.

>>44295742
AGP is real in the sense of a descriptive reality of some people's arousal patterns. That doesn't necessitate that it is the root cause of trans identity. In fact there's a lot of reasons to doubt an arousal first model over an identity first model with AGP being a downstream felt effect, same as GE and GD.

>>44294175
thats a non difference you can't know something unless it was told to you from outside even your race

>>44293817
The *existence* of AGP is not somehow theoretically underdetermined by the idea that "all AGPs are men," (regardless of whether the authors in question regard transwomen as women or not). Blanchard often (at least informally) writes that the primary issue is not whether transwomen are men or not but whether transitioning helps alleviate their gender dysphoria (which it does)

I'm also not sure what the second part of this post is supposed to achieve? Do you think gay cross dressers are somehow not ostracised or hated? Especially if they are on estrogen? Where do you live where openly describing yourself as AGP and a femboy on HRT wouldn't lead to you having a significantly higher risk of being dehumanised, called a pervert, disgusting, possibly assaulted, etc.?

People who hate queers will use *anything* to dehumanise queers, even if AGP were conclusively disproven tomorrow (it can't, because it's actually real), TERFs would still use it, and if it were proven the same would be the case.

For example, God himself has decided upon the eradication of homosexuals (Lev 20:13) for them, and they find gays intrinsically disgusting anyway. They won't stop going after gays no matter what gays do, it isn't an issue contingent on your behaviour, for them, the moment you tried to be who you are you stepped out of line. The solution is never to deny yourself but to accept yourself and to condemn those who will hate you for it. The fight is not at all contingent on what researchers on AGP think is the case

>psychoanalysis
Read Anti-Oedipus