why the fuck is sonic there

>>44974441
because the meme rightoids like to spam is trannies saying "sonic says trans rights"

>>44974441
autism connection

>>44974449
ohhhhhhhh okay i didnt realize im retarded

>>44974424
Starting hormones before 18 is the main issue that Ts are willing to die for
They think that if every mtf started hormones at age 7 or so they would all be 100% indistinguishable from real woman

>>44974441
i believe it's referring to the thing xitter artist troids like to do where they draw a character from their fav autism franchise holding up a sign that says trans rights and/or free palestine on it

Why don't 'neutral' straggots ever talk about all the straight men that pimp out and sleep with their own daughters?

>>44974424
They only look right if they start really young like around age 10 on blockers.

>>44974463
>>44974481
then what do they do if they regret it? just ack themselves?

>>44974502
They don't regret it because they're a small slice of a population about 1/10 of a percent. If they're evaluated properly they will never regret it.
You don't believe it cuz you don't believe transgenderism is real

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>>44974473
it's that and the sonic account tweeting attack helicopter

>>44974424
Wish I was the kid transitioning early, but idk about it becoming easily accesible

>>44974502
what did your mother do after she had you?

>>44974476
nigga what? obviously thats fucked up and no one is going to defend that there is no fucking debate there. with minors becoming trans there is actually a discussion to be had

>>44974502
The mtfs say that’s impossible
You just know 100% you’re trans even at 7
And if an mtf who started hormones at age 7 still acks later well it’s just a coincidence and had nothing to do with it

>>44974424
I'm not LGBT, but I am opposed to minor gender transition.
Only because of the fact that this is no longer 2010 and it's hard to actually guarantee that those children haven't been groomed by parents and non-trans "allies" that want their participation sticker.
Being trans has become "popular" (I hate to use the word fad) and now you have women where ALL of their kids are magically LGBT, with one celebrity allegedly having 3 trans kids) and teachers telling their students that they should pick a different name and pronouns or they can go sit in the corner.

>>44974546
why don't you advocate for stricter medical regulations instead if this is your mindset

>>44974424
Why do I care about other peoples kids? Why does anybody pretend to care about anything. Nobody gives a shit. Why the fuck is everyone angry. Theres tons of other harmful shit nobody gives a fuck. the world isnt going to be a better place

>>44974546
What needs to be and what will eventually become, is that we will go back to Gatekeeping. The way it was done in the 1970s and 80s. Where kids had to be authentically feminine in childhood and homosexual to transition. You had to be gay because that guaranteed you had a female sexuality

>>44974516
of course i think transgenderism is real, im just against minors getting it when they could just wait until they are not a fucking child. you can't even get a tattoo as a child

>>44974534
>>44974546

this is also my concern
>inb4 now you are saying that all trans are groomers
no nigga, i've seen cis parents with weird behaviors towards their children

>>44974574
honestly the trans debate isnt a big deal for me as it doesnt affect me directly, but whenever gay friends are discussing the topic and i give my opinion they tell me im a transphobe or shit because im not 100% in with every idea of the movement

>>44974570
And get called a phobe even more?
Nah.
>>44974600
One of the best things that could happen is getting rid of the radical teachers that lean the kids into it.
Especially when they are like "Our little secret. Don't tell your parents Tehehe".
Being trans seems to come with a higher risk of suicidal tendencies.
Is that teacher going to be at the kid's house at 1am when they are suffering mentally and their parents have no idea?

>>44974659
why do you base your private views off of what people think? it's not like you have to voice them to your friends. do you think being trans is internal or purely socially induced

>>44974424
I don't understand why people are against kids transitioning.
HRT and puberty are basically the same thing. A cis person who mistakenly went on hormones as a kid and regrets it is having the exact same experience as a trans person who didn't get HRT and regrets it.
Even if the regret rate was as high as 50% (which it isn't), it would still be net neutral overall

My opinion is that gender dysphoria doesn't discriminate based on age, and we've spent a horribly long time repressing and isolating trans people. Very few legitimately dysphoric trans people know early on that there is even an option aside from "just be a man" even today. Minors might have false positives, but if there's any chance at all that puberty blockers would save them the discomfort and unhappiness of going through their born sex's puberty, then I think that's a good way to put off puberty long enough to deliberate on and test the waters of social transition before any medical transition.
I don't think kids aged 10-18 should be undergoing SRS or anything super impactful or dangerous medically, like Jazz Jennings was royally screwed over for the whole world to see because of SRS related complications when she should have been offered other options and the time to prepare for such surgery. But blockers offer control over one's own development, and as a lateshit hon (nearly 29), I think that's incredibly valuable.

>>44974693
Because the battle you are certain to lose is the one where you shouldn't be involved in the first place.
I have opinions about everything. It doesn't mean I'm going to campaign for every issue under the sun.

>>44974736
who is talking about campaigning are you okay? schizophrenia maybe what is this reply

>>44974774
NTA but what do you think advocating is?

>>44974570

>>44974441
https://www.reddit.com/r/lovethissmug/comments/1wyl1m5/i_love_making_things_out_of_spite_for_the/

Stop being disingenuous. It's an autistic man thing, which is what you trannies are.

>>44974803
>a small subset of autists do this thing, therefore nobody who's even tangentially related to them can be unaware of or confused about this thing
not the one you replied to, but stfu anon. You're a bigger faggot than any of us hons.

>>44974803
>linking reddit
yeah dog itd be weirder if a redditor didn't like the blue bastard

>>44974801
i meant advocate in the sense of shitposting your opinions online like how they were doing with banning minor hrt

>>44974707
Except puberty is natural and transitioning or HRT can be socially influenced. Also medically speaking wouldn't the normal thing be going for the least invasive/radical treatment first and then exploring other options? So why don't people focus on treating the mental side of dysphoria at least when we are talking about a minor

>>44974863
scoliosis is also natural but dont see anyone advocating to leave their spines as god intended them vro

>>44974876
>comparing an illness to a biological process everyone goes through
ok retard

>>44974502
MTFs aren't marketable as FTMs on this, the detransitioning rate could be 99% and it wouldn't come close as a single regretting FTM complaining about zipper tits

>>44974887
tranniness is the illness

>>44974863
then put people on blockers, all people, including cissoids, we aren't sure they could consent to a invasive treatment such as letting them have their radical change in their bodies by puberty

>>44974863
detrans regret is less than 1% and of those, 90-98% retransition, and of the permanent detransers, i believe it's over 80% who say they only detrans due to social pressure. these are statistics you could easily find, but they're still incomplete, due to the trump admin defunding crusade, among other reasons. and the mental health side is ALWAYS the primary component in a transition, especially when doctors, parents, and patients are allowed to discuss the objectively best care options to treat dysphoria unmolested by malfeasant state actors (such as yourself perhaps)

>>44974887
>ad hominem

>>44974863
-Something being "natural" doesn't make it better.
-Kids are already socially influenced away from transitioning, thanks to the general transphobia of society and the effort it takes to get HRT.
-HRT is neither invasive nor radical and can be easily stopped at any time
-You are a fucking idiot

>>44974916
if you had money to take your tits off you have the money to put them back, I don't care about detransers, if they consented to have another puberty they can accept themselves as forever untranny valley mix of secondary and primary sexual characteristics and leave trannies alone
Notice it's always the retarded FTMTFs, you don't see MTFTMs being marketed on this
FTM trans healthcare should be gatekept while MTF should be given day one

>>44974912
except puberty isn't a treatment and not invasive since invasive means something exterior invading in

>>44974917
I gave you my argument retard, you don't even know what that means and you are using it just as a buzzword, bet that sounded so good in your head

>>44974940
this is a complete non-sequitur to the original argument about hrt for minors. get your head checked

>>44974951
Scoliosis isn't invasive, your spine's already inside your body

i gave myself anorexia when i was 14 bcus i wasnt able to get on blockers and became an alcoholic and drug addict

>>44974863
>So why don't people focus on treating the mental side of dysphoria
what does this even mean?

>>44974640
Transitioning isn’t analogous to getting a tattoo, stupid. Cis people think that it’s ultimately some petty cosmetic change, but it’s actually about whether or not you get to live as your real self. Transitioning young increases the likelihood of better results.

>>44974994
they mean why dont you just go to therapy because it'll fix your tranniness 100

>>44974951
>"uhm you disagree so youre like a stupid retard"
>ad hominem

>>44974916
As I said, I dont care what people do with their bodies, just pisses me off when people call me transphobe because I don't agree with 100% of trans ideals

>>44974937
-Agree with that something natural doesn't make it better
-Kids should be told to explore other options first other than HRT because kids are impressionable and influenced
-I know its not really invasive, but HRT affects your thoughts, mood etc. I think if they are minors they should be directed to treating the dysphoria mentally instead of putting hormones in their bodies
-Cool

>>44974967
You are a retard and I'm not falling for your bait, fuck off

>>44975007
therapy is so retarded bruh

>>44974659
Those teachers are like that because there are tons of kids that come from households that are entirely unaccepting of queerness. That suicidality comes from hostile environments, not dissatisfaction. Also teachers are calling kids by their preferred names, not taking them in for bottom surgery.

>>44975023
>just pisses me off
sneed + mald + you are in fact retarded

>>44975007
That’s called conversion therapy, it has been demonstrated not to work and also be traumatic

>>44975001
I know, I just said for the sake of the argument that if a kid is not even able to get a scribble in their body they dont even know who their real self is going to be in the future

>>44975017
what about the part that I said you cant compare an illness like scoliosis something that affects some people to puberty something that everyone goes through retard

>>44975072
i know, i was just explaining what they meant. probably were also referring to ssris like those help

>>44975023
You absolutely have to have a history with therapy to transition as a child, but sometimes diy is necessary when the parents are fighting every step of the way.

>>44975083
A tattoo can always be added later when someone has better judgement, but an original puberty can’t always be undone.

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>>44975007
this but unironically

>>44975053
>ad hominem

>>44975072
Im against conversion therapy because I think being gay is just a sexual preference that can't be changed and doesn't have to change. But gender dysphoria is an actual condition, I think it'd be better for trans especially minors to attempt to fix that first and if that's not possible then go with a full transition. Sadly i dont know any trans irl to know their experiences, but I have gay friends and siblings and I know that conversion therapy would do more harm than good
I dont know if its kind of hypocritical, im not saying that people shouldnt transition because i dont care what people do with their bodies, this would just be the advice id give to someone who is trans if they asked me about it

>>44975164
no you must spend all your life savings that you planned on using for a house if you want to transition

The level of care they have been receiving is fine and maybe should go further. You are an annoying redneck putting yourself in other peoples business

>>44975168
>>ad hominem
that's correct. i am no longer arguing with you, since you've shown that you lack the capacity for deliberative thought. i am now openly insulting you. hope this helps

>>44975168
Okay I kinda agree but “attempt to fix” is a really rather loaded term in this context. It should be more like weeding out those that get socially influenced and would detrans later. Attempting to fix a kid with actual gender dysphoria could make them repress and have it come back up later with additional trauma. Basically the prerequisite therapy should investigate the feeling and ask if they’re sure they’re ready.

>>44975164
Yeah but the issue is what if they regret it in the future, regardless if its 0.0001%, what happens for that individual that regrets it?

>>44975191
i honestly dont care what people do with their bodies

>>44975215
What is wrong with being ugly?

>>44975220
And what about kids growing out of it later or trans being just a phase for them?

>>44974640
You want them to wait until they're permanently scarred by male puberty. They will ook ugly the rest of their life. You want them to wait so they can be identified and separated out from the normal girls and mocked by the rest of their life!
I think they'd be better off dead, under your plan . I sincerely believe we should make adult transitionin illegal until it can be proven with blood test they have the rare disorder. Receiving care as young children because transgender is a developmental disorder it happens in childhood. It ruins lives when treatment it's only available in adulthood

>>44975168
therapy would only be helpful if the individual isn’t already 100% sure or if they’re having interpersonal conflicts

>>44975220
trve. i knew someone who was unsure abt it and probably socially influenced who went to therapy and just like socially transitioned for a year to experiment then went back to being a boy and never acc transitioned

>>44975299
>I sincerely believe we should make adult transitionin illegal
You aren't beating the grooming allegations with this one

>>44975294
the vast majority do not grow out of it
every single person that transitioned as an adult should have had the opportunity to do so before puberty.

>>44975294
>regardless if its 0.0001%, what happens for that individual that regrets it?
why do the rights of one hypothetical cis kid matter more than the rights of a thousand trans kids?

>>44975294
Being trans isn’t a phase and shouldn’t be treated as such, which is why I advocated for diagnostic therapy. It makes a tremendous difference in people’s lives, and false positives are infinitesimally small. Gender affirming surgeries alone astonishingly have a lower regret rate than knee surgeries. We should be diligent about making sure it’s the right decision, but that diligence is in place and at some point it’s the guardians’ responsibility.

>>44975379
I'm not saying it does, I'm asking what do trans people propose for those individuals who regret it

>>44975404
they should detransition if they regret it

>>44975331
Grooming allocations are right-wing talking points, There aren't enough transgender kids in any country to have people groom them.
You just want to murder children in the sneakiest way possible

>>44975389
Strange part is you don't have to have gender surgery or any kind of surgery! No, that can wait anytime. What is necessary is you have to have male puberty blocked and if you can't do that, it's not worth transitioning!

I know!!! I transitioned when I was 18 years old and I am a total monster and I hate myself and I wish I was dead.

>>44975420
>You just want to murder children in the sneakiest way possible
what? why do they have to die just because they dont get HRT as a minor lmao

>>44975453
again what is wrong with being ugly?
It actually unfortunate that happened to you but chances are you would be ugly either way

>>44975517
Because we are girls and girls don't like looking ugly! if you don't understand that much, you're too stupid to talk to

>>44975501
Because they look permanently like a freak, that's why. you know how people say they can read a trans women, well that doesn't happen with real women. If people can read you as trans, it means you look like a monster or some kind of freak of nature. Something nobody wants to grow old. looking weird

>>44975565
>>44975602

You know ugly women exist and they don't have to kill themselves for it? the issue is transitioning thinking you will look like an anime character and then you are just an ugly women just as you would be an ugly man if you didn't transition

>>44975501
xister the 41%….

>>44975517
its more than js ugly vs pretty its a disfigurement

>>44975625
late transitioners don't look like ugly women they look like men

>>44975625
Yes ugly women do exist but they look like real people they don't look like half male half female looking in the freaks are transgender women look like when they transition after going to a full male puberty they never look normal they look like a monster.
There is a difference between looking unattractive and look at hideously abnormal!

>>44975637
>look hideously ugly
They look like horrible looking ugly little men who are obvious failures that being men

>>44975657
i hope you have family that can get you to a hospital for your stroke

>>44975674
Oh fuck you typical bullshit don't like what I'm saying so you make fun of the way I'm saying it well fuck off you too you little asshole. I don't want to see you hate transgender for women and are just on here to fuck with them

>>44975632
Maybe because there is an unresolved mental condition?

>>44975637
>>44975642
>>44975657
Masculine looking women also exist, you are literally just mocking ugly looking trans to advocate for hrt as a minor

>>44975685
seriously dude go

>>44975691
late transitioners don't look like masculine looking women either

>>44975691
why should we have to be disfigured to satisfy your arbitrary desires?

>>44974424
>im a straight guy
stopped reading
>>>/trash/

>>44974424

Yeah banning transitioning as a minor is (1) against science and common sense, and (2) is literally a ban on passing for most trannies if not all.

So yeah... you and your friends are reactionary and very transphobic to believe that and you got memed into it by right wing propaganda. Essentially no doctors support this because there are so many instances where minors get medical treatment by consent.

>>44975691
All transgender women have incurable mental disease because they're transgender. What causes the mental illness to stress from being transgender realizing you can never be a man and you can never be a woman and you'll never be real person.

>>44975691
>believes in mental conditions instead of life conditions
goy

>>44975130
You are the reason we need stronger parental rights in this country

>>44975168
>>44975007
aside from the obvious ethical problems, conversion therapy doesn't even actually work
https://archive.is/D5Q0t

>>44975743
Parents are allowed to fuck their children’s lives up in so many regards in this country. Yeah, I don’t think that hyperfundamentalist Christian parents should be able to force their kids to repress, as is a commonality currently. I’ve been in a church that didn’t condone normal therapy because it was secular and worldly, so they sure as shit wouldn’t condone therapy that even entertains the idea that the client is trans. I absolutely want kids in such households to be able to get diy hrt.

>>44974424
tldr: i have always been a woman, just born in the wrong body. ten years ago i'd have said "boy" with great hesitation and discomfort. i realised around 11, which is late-ish, but i'd felt it since i first understood gender, so idrc what you think.

then i repped for 6 years, because when i tried to tell my mom, her face went white and she whispered "your dad would hate that, never say that out loud sunshine, okay?" thanks mom. she's supportive now, but it took several suicide attempts, nearly 6 months sectioned, and months homeless before the state saved me.

OP, you know how you save trans kids from that? let them transition. and if you don't care about their humanity, it also saves the state hundreds of thousands in medical and psychiatric costs. ever wonder why we're so mentally ill as adults? maybe because we realise in childhood, repress it, and watch our bodies grow into horrors. holy shit, who knew? apparently not you.

now kindly go think about your positions a while longer and get the fuck off this board before polluting it with your horse shit. if you’re wondering why i have no sympathy for you, i don’t care. im finished having sympathy at this point for people who don’t bother to think about it for more than a couple of minutes

>>44975704

you can do whatever you want nigga I dont give a fuck, you think because I'm against giving hormones to children I'm some fucking alt right fag, I think both sides are full of retards

>>44975723
I said that my friends are gay and they call me transphobe whenever i disagree with any bullet point of trans ideology. you are another retard that thinks if I dont 100% agree with you im redneck or altright faggot like this one
>>44975724

>>44975853
it’s literally a medical condition

>>44975838
I'm going to argue with you in good faith even if you think Im just a bigot or whatever just because i dont 100% agree with you.

I don't think there is such thing as born in the wrong body, but that doesnt make a difference, I think trans people should be treated with respect, however I think its crazy to give drugs that alter your mood your body, can leave you sterile to a way underdeveloped mind.

I'm going to gtfo out of your tranny board, but you are showing clearly while so many people don't like this ideology, I just want to see what is the other viewpoint and you all treat people who dont agree with you like shit. I actually feel sympathy for trans, even if im cis I know it would be a nightmare to live prisioner in a body that doesnt feel yours, but that doesnt make it okay to give children drugs that can fuck them up for life

>>44975853
Okay but you’re ignoring the fact that early transition benefits the vast majority of people that go through it with the guise of a super slim minority of those people because it just strikes you as weird and icky. You’re both-sides-ing despite everything that we’ve told you because you give credence to right wing retards. You are an exemplification of the eternal white moderate, and your feelings don’t care about our facts.
Early benefit yields exponentially better results than later transition, and studies have shown that even most detransitioners did so from external pressure compared to an even smaller subset whom it simply wasn’t right for. What are YOU going to do about the opposite problem of children being groomed to be cishet?

>>44974424
In my opinion adults should just be allowed to do whatever because their body is their own responsibility and 15+ should be allowed hrt but with strict medical oversight and gatekeeping on a case by case basis. It's safe to make them wait until 18 for surgeries because surgery doesn't get exponentially less effective with age, but you can't unfuse bones after it's too late.
Freezing gametes should also probably be mandated for minors before starting hrt if it could be covered financially.
Any earlier than around 15 (varies based on individual genetics ofc) and I worry that you could run into the issue of people not knowing for sure that they made the right decision since they never got a taste of the alternative. Anecdotally I've seen a couple cases of this where youngshits who never really had to actually experience being a man detroon because being a tranny is hard and then retransition after experiencing what masculinization feels like really fucks them up.

>>44975947
nta but "natural" hormones also alter your mood and body

>>44975947
You think that trans people should be shown respect, you just think that we’re doing all of think because we’re cooky crazy and not because we experience actual incongruence between our brains and the rest of our bodies (which is repeatedly scientifically observed). It’s okay if we do it as adults because it’s totally like a tattoo, dude, and children can wait even if the results are entirely different depending on when they transition. Please disregard the fact that trans acceptance is affected by lookism and that it can be the difference in how society treats them, they can let their jobs and lives be jeopardized because it’s the same as a face tat.
You didn’t come here to learn anything

>>44975294
>>44974502
what happens to people who regret not transitioning?

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>>44975838
I haven't been engaged in this argument like uh....other anons have. But I just wanna say, from one formerly homeless tranon to another, you didn't deserve that. I went through lighter forms of trans erasure and familial/social pressure, but I've found myself at peace, relatively. I hope you find peace here. I agree almost entirely with you, and I know why you're angry - there are so many just like us out there who are not fortunate enough to have found stability. It's disheartening, and given the recent push from the GOP to quadruple down on transphobia as some kind of final-string attempt at saving the midterms from a blue wave, I get it. But you lure more flies with honey.

Even when you're right, even when you're in a place that's known for being combative and angry, sometimes the best thing to do is meet the other person on their level. OP seems pretty entry level. From what I've read this thread, he seems to believe the following things:
>hormones are unnatural, extreme and often detrimental
>hormones are irreversible and leaves lasting damage
>trans desistence is relatively common, common enough that it could be considered a phase
We know these aren't true, obviously, but OP doesn't, and the first step to being on equal footing is to establish common ground. Let me show you, by now directing my earnest attention to OP in my next post. I'd use this post but...character limit. Bear with me.

>>44975947

that’s fine and i respect your opinion, but just so you know i would have dragged myself over a mile of gravel with my teeth if it bought me one more year as a woman

do you seriously think i wanted this? do you think i did this for fun? or as a joke? or because my teacher told me i had to troon? or whatever shit people come up with these days

no really do you think it was fun being treated like less than nothing for 2 full years, living on the streets because no fucking landlord would accept a homeless tranny as a tenant and no one would give a homeless hon a job

i didnt even touch drugs, i had no debt. I FUCKING TRIED AND IT IS A FUCKING MIRACLE I LIVED and sometimes i seriously dont give myself enough fucking credit for that

YOU DO IT. YOU FUCKING DO IT YOU COWARD AND THEN YOU CAN TELL ME THAT IM OVERREACTING. THAT IM BEING UNREASONABLE

you sit on your high fuckkng horse because you were BLESSED to be born with all of your faculties (im assuming, sorry) and the gift of never having to feel dysphoria

so i ask you again
DO YOU THINK I DO THIS FOR FUN YOU RETARD

and if you wonder why i treat you like shit, why im angry, and jaded, and irate

it’s because ive had a fucking LIFETIME of explains this to retards like you who will never fucking understand

listen to me fuckwad. if there had been a pill that i could have taken, a pill that killed that little part of my brain that cursed me with gender dysphoria?

i would have fucking taken it in a heartbeat, yeah? i would have lived as a MAN and been happy

but that pill doesnt fucking exist. HRT is a subpar solution for a horrific problem. and by taking it away from child me, and the trans kids of today,

you condemn them to suffering, and some to death.

so i pray, i truly pray and hope that NONE of your family, friends, relatives or anyone you know experiences gender dysphoria

because it is a fucking tragedy

>>449759710
15 plus is way too late. How many boys have a voice changed before they are 15?
Well, my guess would nearly be all of them
So, unless they come up with the surgery that can reduce the larynx to the female size, you cannot change the voice back naturally. Y0ou get these affected voices which sound like shit!
I am against anyone transitioning over the age of 12 because starting after puberty they can always tell you're an ugly tranny
There are some valid disabilities or a person is naturally hideous looking in transgender isn't one of them.2

i left my trip in this time because i’d rather have my name on this because fuck you OP

now your taxes pay my disability pension because of the PTSD, the dissociative amnesia, the depression, the anxiety, the agoraphobia, and the fear this fucking system caused me

hope your happy your government wastes its resources on retards like me when i could have been a normal, hardworking tax payer if you had gotten me my HRT

even your fucking fiscal logic doesnt make sense

>>44976062
>>44975947
I know it may sound extreme that people on this board are talking about DIY hormones via injection and facial-reconstructive surgery and genital surgeries. I know that from the outside looking in gender dysphoria might not be a big enough deal to treat with anything but CBT (the therapy). But the truth is, transgender people deal with a serious problem that studies indicate isn't easily solved through reinforcing their born sex/birth-certificate gender title.
Some deal with it better than others, but it's uniquely difficult to go through life knowing that the thing in the mirror doesn't represent anything you feel inside. There's not really a cure for that. It's a feeling that haunts us, and depending on the environment we're raised in or the mistakes we make when coping with it, it can wind up causing enormous trauma. Genuine, neurologically-damaging trauma. A lot of tranons here are, to be blunt, a testament to that, by obsessing over appearance and social standing when smaller changes to behavior and grooming could at least reduce their dysphoria and improve their internal life.
(1/?)

>>44976114
I agree I'll never work a job in my life because I don't want to be made fun of because I look like a fucking freaky idiot!
I seriously believe it was the next chapter or step in being transgender it will be because you are physically able to test for it scientifically and prove the person is unquestionably transgender, otherwise there should be no therapy for it!

>>44976125


Now, imagine that you were born with a shorter thumb on either hand than proportionally normal. You spend your childhood trying to cope by altering your grip, concealing its length from others because you're insecure, or having to dress it when the nail inevitably breaks off.
Then you hit puberty, and the thumb recedes nearly an inch in a couple months. And seems to be getting shorter by a few millimeters a month too. It's visibly worse for wear, the nail is permanently damaged or has to be yanked out to prevent pain. Now you're more aware of it. Struggling to do tasks you used to be fine with. Afraid something is wrong with you on a fundamental level. Feeling vindicated in your concerns about others seeing it, you withdraw from your friends. Your parents don't know what your problem is, to them you're fine and it's just a thumb, surely it's not THAT important to your grip strength. Maybe they'll coach you on how to grasp things without your thumb, but you can't get over it, and their advice often contradicts how your hand feels.

Now imagine that this is an issue that, when you look into it online, thousands of others are dealing with, or have even borderline permanently fixed it. Prosthetics, regrowths, surgical re-thumbing, even just ways to dress and care for it to avoid the most traumatic issues.
And your parents tell you that this is a sign that the devil's taking you in, that you just need to man up and learn to grip without your thumb, that the people who seem to be living perfectly fine are secretly evil or that they're actually worsening their condition.
(2/?)

>>44974424
hrt is otc in multiple countries and it has caused no issues. yes, minors should be allowed to transition. they can drive, they can get a job, they can join the army but god forbid a 30 year old woman be allowed to take testosterone

>>44974424
That's a reasonable opinion, but you also need to take into account that the longer you take to start HRT, the less results you'll see. It's why there's such massive discourse about 'youngshits/midshits/lateshits/John50' etc. I believe anyone who thinks they're trans should get on HRT as early as possible, regardless whether they're a minor or not

>>44976178
what good does it do somebody to transition when they will never look normal? They look like a freak after they go through male puberty. You know this as well as I do

>>44976169
As you grow into adulthood it's become more mainstreamed, everyone knows about it and looks closely at how you and others grab things or gesture, they want to see your hands without gloves on. Eventually sides start to form. So you have two extremely loud sides of a bizarre debate about you, treating you like some kind of political football, demonizing or fetishizing you, not there to support but to pretend to support you. You can't even trust the people who seem to share your condition because you can't tell if they're being genuine about treating the issue or they're just propping you up for clout. Going outside becomes incredibly stressful and you sequester yourself in your room, thumb nearly fully receded, not wanting to look at it, not wanting to think about it, but it's right the fuck there.

That's dysphoria. And that's the landscape surrounding trans people. The one thing people in our position actually need is honest support. Not by talking at them, not by carting them off to a loony bin or barring them from public life, not by treating them as a spectacle, but by listening to them and learning their struggles. Walking with them, even if you're put off, even if you don't get it, even if you've been told to treat them as a threat.
(3/?)

>>44976064
Thanks for your reply and for establishing some commonground
And by presenting transitioning as the only solution you are condemming kids that are easily influenced to live the same trecherous path than you. Maybe if they are given proper psychological help they could learn to overcome the dysphoria

>>44976114
Ive never mentioned taxes at all, Im not even from the US, I suffer from a worse curse than being a tranny, Im from the third world so rest assured my taxes arent paying for no tranny surgery, they are used to buy corrupt polititians mansions and kill students on the streets

Phoneposting rn because Im walking my dog so sorry if there are formatting errors
or typos

>>44976041
Then they can just transition lol

>>44976190
The problem is we need to start by the age of 10 or 11. I think it's even earlier for girls
I wish scientist would support my views about males not being able to look truly female if they do not take HRT at the same time normal girls have it in their body. If they can't go along with this I can understand why they can't, but then it should be outlawed for everybody. we should not be condone the making little freaky monsters just for sex objects

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Fundamentally this is a medical issue with medical answers and should be garnered with the same kind of attitude we do towards different kinds of care. You have a mental condition, or desire, or incongruence which leads to negative wellbeing, suicide and mortality rates comparable to anorexia nervosa and the medical approach is "what gets us closer so that the people with this affliction get to more or less a healthy state of living?". If that's a pill so be it, if it's some kind of CBT so be it, so far transition seems to be the thing that works,

The state should have no voice in this, or as equivalent of a voice as in other parental-minority healthcare issues, "Should a minor be legally be entitled to transition against their parents wishes?" should have the same answer as "Should a minor be legally allowed to receive a blood infusion against their parents wishes?", this also depends on age and maturity of a minor in making medical decisions (check ur states/provinces! in a lot of western places minors can consent to medical decisions against parents wishes at like 13!!, which is not age of consent when it comes to sex stuff).

Requiring diagnosis or medical approval is sometimes slow and unwieldy, but like with any affliction mental or physical you will have time you could have caught it sooner and wrongful diagnoses would potentially be made. These, like all choices in medical ethics are weighed and judged accordingly. If any of these material facts change then I am super down to change my opinion!!

>>44976202

>kids who are easily influenced

look my anger for the day is done but please be for real
WHO is influencing kids into transitioning??!
like really who, for context i grew up in terf island and the US too

and i dont know what the common ground is sorry? im not upset just trying to figure out what you mean

what was the common ground?

and yea if you grew up in the third world then of course it’s different

>>44976178
Yeah, 16-17 year olds can drive, 18yo join the military compared to 8yo that is around the age when puberty is starting

>>44976202
>Maybe if they are given proper psychological help they could learn to overcome the dysphoria

This has never worked and it never will work and all the Sciences against the idea because it doesn't work you can't change somebody's gender identity. Why can't we develop a science where we can test it in the blood and if it comes out positive for transgenderism you get to have the treatment and if you don't, we don't

>>44976202
>Maybe if they are given proper psychological help they could learn to overcome the dysphoria
Again, that’s conversion therapy. I know that you think it’s different from gay conversion therapy, but very similarly both same sex attraction and gender dysphoria are demonstrated to be innate and not healthy to repress. Transitioning is THE appropriate treatment for gender dysphoria.

>>44976257
I agree and I wish to hell it wasn't. I don't think anyone on this board hates it as much as I do cuz I always wanted to just be a gay guy and I couldn't adjust to it because I am truly transgender and I fucking hate myself for it you know ugly looking creep the rest of my life!!

>>44976243
The culture exposing kids more and more to tranny stuff, when I was a kid I wanted to be Batman, sadly I couldnt, obviously the same thing happens to kids whenever they say trans influencers

>>44976192
>what good does it do a permanently crippled person to not be even more crippled, repeatedly, for the rest of their life
damn, idk

>>44976193
Now, I've gone on for a while, and only now am I going to talk directly about the act of transitioning. In the womb, we all have X chromosomes which form into, essentially, female bodies. This isn't to make a silly claim like all humans are female, but it shows that our development diverges from a single origin. The seam in your ballsack, is the same skin that would form into a vulva. Your testes, made of similar cells to ovaries. Your nipples, capable of developing breastmilk later on in development. The things that define our visible sex-characteristics develop over time, not from conception. And this is where hormones come in.
During puberty, sperm cells are generated in the testicles, ovulation starts to occur, and secondary characteristics like feminine subcutaneous fat deposits or masculine upper-body muscle mass solidify. Bones fuse, the shape of one's body becomes more concrete.
All of this is directed by your hormone levels and a mixture of internal and external factors. Hormones, both estrogen and testosterone, exist in both sexes in varying quantities. A man with no estrogen and a woman with no testosterone isn't usually considered healthy. But puberty spikes these hormones' levels in the blood since the body has begun to grow into its mature adult form.

It is true that testosterone and estrogen alter the mood of the individual. It is also true that it affects the body. The truth is, the body and brain are pretty sensitive to hormonal changes. So when you start off with a feminine streak as a born male and nobody in your life supports it, you might be prone to feel repression and discomfort increase, as you realize your body is on a timer and something has to be done. This is why delaying puberty or altering hormones is such a big part of transition.

(4/?)

>>44976247
male puberty generally starts at like 12, and by the time a kid realizes they don't like the effects of their puberty and tries to tell others about it they're pretty damn sure

>>44976320
That’s saying that we exist against a tidal wave of cisheteronormativity.
How much do you care about kids being groomed to be cishetero? Because that is the norm by a long shot

>>44976238
This is the best argument so far imo, because Im against government involvement as much as possible, but ideally theyd still do something for parents manipulating minors

>>44976320
Realize what a jerk you are comparing it to a child's fantasy about being Batman! That's all you think it is, just a fantasy huh?
This is what we're up against people like you thinking that we just have a fantasy . It is really something in our brain it has to be discovered, otherwise we should never transition it should not be allowed to legally transition . because you're making fun of people who are sick and cannot prove it

>>44976335
You've seen the barely-restrained pain, rage, fear and borderline psychosis of anons on this board by this point. I'm not trying to pretend that they're not acting irrational. But they're cornered rats. They missed the bus on a lot of extremely helpful early-age measures they could have taken. And now they're eternally worried that they can't reach this less-dysphoric and more-stable self that they've wished they could be for most if not all of their life. A lot of this stress is either caused by lack of acceptance (see: a world with pretty strict gender roles socially) or feelings of inadequacy (if only I started sooner I could look like these influencers who are so beautiful). It is true that social media and lookism heavily influence this, but the seed has to be in there before it can grow. These cases of dysphoria would still exist, merely less severely, if these kids were brought up with completely gender neutral or supportive environments. But the real world isn't very nice. And so dysphoria isn't something as simple as a couple visits to a CBT therapist for *most* of us trans anons. So...some of us wallow in what-ifs and despair. Others do something about it.
(5/?)

>>44976346
I didnt say necessarily that more tranny in the culture was bad but for the sake of the argument
I dont care because thats how most people are and what eventually leads to procreation, or should we do the opposite and live in trannynormativity when they are a minority?

>>44976404
They are really a very small minority I do think many of them are not really fully transgender because they're not feminine and childhood which is definitely a transgender feature and they're not homosexual which definitely used to be considered primary cause and reason for treatment.

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>>44974424
allowing minors to transition means many trans kids will transition and live much happier lives at the cost that some cis kids might transition and become dysphoric. this thread boils down to the idea that cis people are more deserving of happiness than trans people

>>44976424
It's it's funny but I agree with the conclusion. I think being transgender is devastating and totally abnormal yet it is as real as anything else that cannot be cured with therapy. The only cure is not really a cure, it's a way to manage it which is to live as the sex we should have been at Birth

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I think that in order for minors to get hormones, they should have a gender dysphoria diagnosis after speaking with medical professionals. They can only get medication; no surgery should be allowed until they are 18.

>>44976320

holy shit
look, i cant lie are you seriously comparing a medical issue as complex and intricate as transsexuality to wanting to be batman?

like i hope im being respectful but do you understand how ridiculous the comparison is?

one is a simple and innocent fantasy about wanting to be a hero and someone who can have a positive impact on the world while looking awesome or whatever

and the other is a horrible condition that manifests itself with pain and discomfort and suffering.

the only people who would want to transition after seeing a trans influencer, were either schizo disgusting sissies who jerk off to the thought of themselves ij women’s clothing

OR people like ME who are actual trannies, seeing another person like them on their screen and gaining the strength to go through with their transition finally.

a normal cis kid, doesnt watch a video with a trans influencer and think “wow i want to be a woman”, they don’t think anything??!! because theyre NOT trans.

and if they have thoughts about it, they should talk to a gender specialist/psychiatrist to talk them through and get to the bottom of that. because therapy is extremely important for people with gender dysphoria.

but again.
Unless you’re a porn addicted sissy fuck, you don’t suddenly want to become a tranny out of nowhere

>>44976404
You asserted that tranny exposure in the culture is unduly influencing children to transition, when in actuality children are being overtly pressured by authority figures to repress and behave as cishetero. It’s dismissing grooming when it’s for the norm.
Also you were arguing earlier for the fraction of detransitioners who regret going through transition even against a majority who benefit from it, but now the minority doesn’t matter when they’re compared against cishets. So many double standards.
We don’t have to live in trannynormativity and do transgender for everyone in order to refrain from forcing kids to be someone they’re not. Again, this is all based irrationally on aspersions that they should remain cis even if they do have dysphoria

>>44976473
I seriously regret transitioning but it's not because I am not transgender. Yes I've seen some of the best therapist who deal with the issues and they have all concluded the same that I am transgender I'm just about the most transphobic transgender person they've ever met because I don't believe it looking weird is normal. I hate looking like a fool and that's what all transgender women look like to me, like creeps

>>44976489

anon what horrific shit happened in your life for you to think this

like dont get me wrong theres a good amount of cissies and rapehons out there but those are not transwomen representative of the wider community

>>44976386
Let's start from what we can do as adults.
>gender-affirming social transition and fashion/grooming guidance from passing or cis people
>mindfulness and gender-deprogramming through behavioral help
>hormones
>facial surgery
>top surgery
>bottom surgery
>experimental bone structure surgeries
The list here is pretty long. but a lot of it is quite invasive. Top surgery can leave pretty visible scars, might not look very great, and can be botched. Same goes for bottom surgery, and since there's hygenic plumbing down there it can REALLY get bad if something goes wrong. And depending on where skin is sourced for trans men's bottom surgery...let's just say I feel pretty bad for trans men.
There's hormones. But by adulthood a lot of things are cemented. Let's just say age 18 here since that's the age of consent in most of the first world and the age of majority in a lot of countries too. There's a good chance that by that age your body has already fused your hip bones, developed your ribcage and shoulders out, started you on the track for male pattern baldness, and severely affected your hair growth. This makes presenting as one gender over the one you were born as much more difficult, impossible for some. This is where passing is a problem, because years of repressing and gendered hygiene practices and such can stunt the transition. This is where the meme of the bearded hon comes from - trans women who don't know how to care for facial hair, or have spent so long shaving that the hair grows in rapidly and thickly and can only really be reduced by months or years of work or surgical hair removal.
After these options, all that can be done to transform the humble hon into a passoid is education on fashion and grooming, which has limited results and might be undone merely by genetics at this point.

People want teenagers to be allowed to delay puberty if they feel dysphoric because it is the simplest, easiest way to prevent this struggle to undo puberty.
(6/?)

>>44976366
What difference does it make if its a fantasy or not? The fantasy of becoming a woman or batman would both be equally impossible a couple of decades ago

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>>44976516
Gah, forget it. OP is seriously faceplanting with the goddamn Batman argument. I don't know why I put the energy forth to hold the olive branch out. Goodnight thirdie, may your woes be many and your days few.

>>44976363
Thankies! in regards to parents manipulating minors. (I'd like to say I don't believe a large or even a big minority of transitions are this, in fact parents are very aversive to transitioning medically or socially transitioning their kids even if they know it's for the best!). but granting, when would the state stop a parent from manipulating their child? in fact we have enshrined into law and attitude that a parents rights to their child is paramount, want to send them to a religious school and force them to go to church? so be it! want to derail their entire life to do a thing, seriously, you can do anything you want short of actual measurable abuse to your child and the state has no voice in this. You could give your kid a fursona and set up SFW furry meets. Want to go inna-woods and have basically feral kids, as long you as you do some paperwork in regards to homeschooling... you can! I would say none of these are ethical, and largely none of these should be legal, but I treat children as mini-adults who have a voice but need protection rather than a thing to play around with like a lot of political-parents do. The end point being, why are we careful with this trans thing vs all those other things?

>>44976451
that'd probably result in higher regret rates actually. because to get treatment you'd need to say to a doctor constantly, I'm absolutely sure I'm absolutely sure I'm absolutely sure, even if you're not. anecdotes from detransitioners report dread about feeling like they 'had to' transition, and wanting the doctors to tell them they're wrong, that they don't have to, and then being upset that the system failed them. whereas if it's just freely accessible then the only person to judge is yourself, and the only responsibility is your own

>>44976518
Medical transition has existed for like a century now, let alone the long documented history of gender dysphoria

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>>44976424
This but the other way around

>>44976511
Oh no I'm not trying to anyway come across as if I'm an example of trans women.
I am however, someone who is very aware of male looks in transgender women and like many here I can spot them a mile away.
I didn't get a chance to transition until I was 18 and then I only transitioned for 6 months and then I stopped because I knew my body was too masculine it never looked female. But when I was 24 years old I went back to transitioning because I'm transgender and there's no way you can stop it
And all those years from between I tried to adjust to being a gay man I wanted so bad to just be a gay man and I couldn't make the adjustment. lost the love of my life over it.
Since I've been an open trans I've been a typical piece of shit and a weirdo

>>44976518

ITS NOT A FUCKING FANTASY LOL

transition is a cry help. it’s what you fall to after you exhaust every other fucking option. you try to manage your dysphoria, you try to keep it under control, but a trans person will always learn just how impossible that is

it is not a fucking fantasy what are you smoking. i never fantasised about being a woman lol!!!???

>>44976465
If in the mind of a kid he want to become batman because he likes him its not far fetched to think that a kid may want to become a woman because of a trans influencer

>>44976511
For one, when I was 15 years old I was kidnapped by a woman who was 23 years old and molested for several weeks and turned out in the street when I was also 15 years old I was sent away to a foster home where they were absolutely cruel to me
The only thing good about the place was the sex

>>44976473
Those 2 scenarios are not mutually exclusive, kids can both be influenced to be trannys or cis and both are not okay

>>44976580

nope
this is F tier bait and im tired and it’s late.
im going to bed
if you genuinely think this god help us
if someone else could tell them why this makes no sense i would appreciate it but i’m too tired

>>44976489
how does that even happen

>>44976596
I appreciate this answer
I don’t think this >>44976580 is very likely but that concern may warrant diagnostic therapy to investigate motivations. I don’t think we should refrain from having trans representation in media because of that risk as it means a lot to authentically trans kids

>>44976532
If there is a good example that would make me change my mind is this. those are some good examples because I do believe that there are far more parents that would do these than parents who would manipulate their children into being trans

>>44976558
I'm not saying it is a fantasy, but it wouldnt matter even if it were. Giving hormone to kids is bad

>>44976664
nature give kid hormone if nobody else does, there is no completely safe neutral option

>>44976630
Thanks I have no issue with trans represantation in media like poltards, they should be represented too. Honestly I dont care about it unless its way too forced

>>44976664
everyone has hormones it came free with ur xbox

>>44976623
Wait I might have confused you
I didn't mean to suggest they were the therapist who approved my transition. They were the therapist I've seen later in life trying to be less transphobic.
ormed to it in recent years for helping me to be less transphobic

>>44976664
Because you say so? Did you miss the whole thread in which we argued otherwise. Again, your feelings don’t care about our facts

>>44976554
>allowing minors to transition means many cis kids will transition and live much worse lives at the cost that some trans kids might transition and become less dysphoric. this thread boils down to the idea that trans people are more deserving of dysphoria than cis people
?????

>>44976664
you have estrogen
you have testosterone
what do you make of this information

>>44976682
Okay you ruined it. Trans people don’t represent an ideology, it’s innate to us. There are trans poltards and cis wokies.

>>44976664
>all kids should have their sex organs removed
based anti natalist poster

>>44976701
Are you going to pretend trans people are not overwhelmingly left leaning?

>>44976717
>this group of people is overwhelmingly against a set of ideologies that threatens their livelihoods and treats them like shit
gripping stuff

>>44976717
They should be extremely left-leaning because they're creepier than gay people

>>44976717
No I’m not, but that is in large part because right wing movements are hostile towards us. Also many of us share experiences and hardships that lead us to beliefs like socialism and social progressivism.
Many far right movements are rife with trans and gay reppers, but if they weren’t discouraged from queerness then the political distribution would probably be much more even.

>>44976717
rightoids: i want trannies to have worse lives
leftoids: i want trannies to have better lives
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

>>44976717
its kinda like immigrants, most immigrants are socially regressive, family, traditional, religion big part of life... and vote democrat because the other party is so anti-them lol

>>44976734
>>44976736
>>44976756
3 retards, I know why trans people lean left, thats why im saying that they obviously and overwhelmingly represent an ideology unlike the other anon

>>44976745
Trans and socialist, pick a struggle

>>44976773
I really can't say I like immigrants to be honest. I like people who are of my own race I feel safest around I don't wish anything bad for anyone else

>>44976781
if "my personal suffering is bad and I want to stop it" counts as an ideology then sure

>>44976791
burgers are so psyoped it's insane

>>44974424
I say go for it when it comes to hormones, as that sort of thing is much more harmless in the off-chance that it really is a phase, but anything past that like surgeries should be generally a no go until adulthood outside of extreme circumstances.
Honestly, if a kid expresses a desire to hop on cross-sex HRT, chances are that if they change their mind and want to stay male/female, they'll probably still appreciate avoiding or postponing some of the worse parts of their natal development.

>>44976806
Burgers okay mine a cheeseburger

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>>44974424
I wish I had trooned out as a kid when I actually had the chance. Maybe then I wouldn't have become a miserable alcoholic repper with zero future.

>>44974424
i started hrt at 14 and got surgery to cut my boobs off at 16. genuinely saved my life i was going to kill myself before 18. if other kids can get that care thats great but i do think trans "acceptance" has gone too far in a bad direction where idiot children who want to feel special will abuse this. already seeing it happen.

>>44976781
Dumbass they just explained to you why they were boxed into said ideology. We wouldn’t overwhelmingly side with that ideology if right wingers didn’t vilify us.
Also I won’t “pick a struggle” because I’m principled and not solely self interested. I’m also an avid environmentalist, and I’m not going to forget that pursuing other political causes

>>44976822
I have to agree although I do think fantasy before puberty is the only way to go I do think that some kids today are likely influenced to transition because they are better than they think they are something like anorexia Maybe?
However they are usually girls wanting to be boys

>>44975039
>That suicidality comes from hostile environments, not dissatisfaction
ehhhhhhhhhh I'd say
>it's okay hon I accept you as a woman but you can't have hrt for years sorry it's medically necessary!!
probably isn't enough to decrease suicide rates to cis levels

won't somebody please think of the children and mandate that the state abduct them from their parents if they're allowed to get medical care

>>44976822
got yours and immediately wants to pull the ladder. moid brained supremely.

>>44976857
isn't the exact opposite the case here? People are mad because the parents are denying them medical care and the state is stepping in to protect the interests of the children?

>>44976825
You have autism right?

>>44975023
>HRT affects your thoughts, mood etc
>you will have the thoughts and mood of a teenager of the other sex. the horror

>>44976898
Yeah I suppose that’s obvious at this point

>>44976857
the moment there it was legal to do so the FBI literally did that https://www.them.us/story/fbi-plane-cuba-child-custody-dispute-transgender-care

>>44976898
Maybe you don't understand people who have good values

>>44976064
>You should let me decide what's best for your children because I'm traumatized and mentally ill
Crazy logix

>>44976933
>socialist
>good values

>>44975023
dysphoria cannot be "treated mentally" who told you this garbage

>>44976940
>>you should let me decide what's best for your children
>"Dad, I don't think I'm a boy, and I'm worried that the longer I let my puberty go on the further from myself I'm going to feel."
>"NO SON OF MINE!"
>"hey you should leave her alone and let her decide how she wants to express and conduct herself, she's 17 years old"
this is what you're calling "deciding what's best for your children" btw, dipshit

>>44976967
With that mentality of course not

it seems a lot of you don't really care about the bio-medical question of ethics but just want to be cruel to people with a weird condition that you can't find yourself to sympathize with. :(

>>44976215
and you don't see anything wrong with the fact they end up with way worse results and are scarred and ostracized and hated for life?

>>44976940

LOL THATS WHAT YOU GOT FROM IT
i cant bro okay

i hope you have a beautiful very long life and blessed with much happiness and luck coming your way because fuck you you are the most disgusting, callous, cruel, and hateful individual if you think this

genuinely go fuck yourself

you have not known adversity and you should seriously shut your fucking mouth

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>believing kids are societally pushed to transition
>believing going through natural puberty as a tranny is in any way better or more healthy than transitioning as a cis kid
>believing the suffering of the small number of genuinely regretful detransitioners somehow outweighs the suffering of trannies denied medical care
>believing it's possible to overcome dysphoria through therapy despite there being no evidence of this ever happening
garbage thread, op asks a question and then refuses to listen to anyone trying to answer. either bait or so deeply brainrotted there's no getting through. either way, not worth engaging with any longer