Anyone who has any personal experience with predator animals knows that they experience far more pleasure from eating than we can understand. And their pleasure would be compounded if they were famished. And anyone who has experience with animals of prey knows they don’t have much individualist pain, their main source of pain is fear. And that pain ends when they did.More critically, Schopenhauer seems to totally misunderstand what pain *is*. Some women enjoy pain because it makes them feel submissive (anyone who has had sex with a few knows a lot love being slapped and choked). And many men take a spiritual or cultural interest in pain. The Mawé subject to themselves to more pain than most of us ever experience in a lifetime, as part if a boy’s coming of age The fact is that Schopenhauer’s idea of suffering is extremely modern. The anguish of life that the Greek pessimists focused on wasn’t physical pain, and with the sorts of plagues, torture, battle disabilities and infirmity they had then, you would think they would have. Oedipus rips his own eyeballs out as an expressing of anguish, which must have been a lot more physically painful than fucking his mother no matter how tight she wastl;dr the qualitative experience of physical pain today is much worse to us than it was to humanity in the past, let alone to how animals experience it
Quit reading this rubbish and come home.
>>24689506I only read Instagram posts by amateur models who have monetized their account
Literally doesnt mean anything fundamentally because its impossible to measure and quanitify.The statement has to be made on completely different grounds.
>>24689493>t. never been eaten alive
>>24689626It actually can be measured and quantified. Casinos operate on he assumption, which is pretty well tested, that the dopamine people get from winning x outweighs by a significant edge the pain they get from losing x >>24689672I have eaten out pussy alive if that counts. But no, however I HAVE had my leg broken with an open fracture and also another time had my skull smashed enough to fracture so I have some idea what bone-crushing, flesh-rending pain feels like and honestly it isn’t very intense because under those situations your adrenaline is going haywire—in the first situation I was given fentanyl in the ambulance and in the second I was given morphine at the hospital and I didn’t notice much of an effect from either drug due to adrenaline. The real agony is mostly found when you’re recuperating
>>24689731>which is pretty well tested, that the dopamine people get from winning x outweighs by a significant edge the pain they get from losing x You dont know what quantitative means then.The type of retards that splurge at casinos are not reflective of broader humanity, the type of people that can afford to lose at casinos are also not reflective or broader humanity. Casinos select for specific types of people, and also puts them in specific contexts not simple enough for any pain v pleasure measurement to even mean anything. They abstract and disconnect you from the money you put in and lose via chips.Among other things I dont care to elaborate on.
>>24689731>the pain was not so bad, I barely even noticed the high powered pain killers they gave me, it was actually a lot like being eaten aliveLol. Go spend some time out in wolf country, eventually you will get woken up in the we hours to the sound of a deer getting eaten alive, what you will hear is not adrenalin. Videos of this don't do it justice, they seriously cut the volume and make heavy use of compression.
>>24689752No, they actually ARE. In fact if you read books on financial investment, a lot of hedge fund managers talk about precisely this issue was a source of otherwise extremely intelligent employees taking unnecessary risk. Because even if the payoff isn’t worth the risk, they get more of a feeling of gratification when they succeed than grief when they fail. This phenomenon is also why almost everyone overestimates their abilities in doing something like driving or what have you, because their mistakes don’t impress their memory as much as their successes in terms of emotional stimulation. Of course there are people who are wired differently or even in reverse. A tight-passive poker player for example feels disproportionate discomfort at loss of x compared to his gratification at winning x—such players are very easy to exploit because they don’t make you pay much to see their best hands and you can make them shit their pants and fold even when they have you beat. But by-and-large people tend toward the first mindset. That doesn’t mean they spend hours playing slots; that requires an extreme disproportion, like feeling feeling gratification from winning ten dollar’s proportionate to the pain of losing 100
>>24689780I didn’t get any pain killers until at least an hour after the first incident and several hours after the second. The bones were literally sticking out my leg which had been broken in not one, or two, but ten places.
i dont think you can quantify pain and pleasure :)
>>24689780>what you will hear is not adrenalinThat’s called terror. I was screaming after my leg was broken from a combination of helplessness (I had tried several times until I realizes what had happened) and horror at how my leg looked. We naturally scream when we are even slightly frustrated and helpless, like if something is stuck we are trying to fix, but when you helpless and going to die, you have an infinite sense of helplessness combined with fear. Imagine being bodily stuck in a cavern and unable to escape. The screams from that would be similar but your condition would last for days
>>24689826*tried to standThe sensation I had in my leg at this point was extremely discomfort with vague pain, like when your leg is an awkward position, so it didn’t put two and two together immediately
>>24689826The terror is the first 15 maybe 30 seconds or so until the deer realizes there is nothing it can do what follows is pain and depending on the size of the pack this can go on for a good while. Come back when you have been in a situation where you really thought you would die or very likely die and not one of those near miss oh shit I almost died but the sort where you get to spend some time contemplating your mortality and impending death, it is nothing like you think.
>>24689901Contemplating death when you’re dying in bed or something is a totally different situation to facing it when you are instinctively trying to fight against it. The helplessness in the latter situation is extremely primal. I tried to hang myself once and I fucked up the knot and it didn’t break my neck it just started choking me. To make matters worse I had tied a plastic bag over my head in case of such a contingency. While my mind was fine with death, my instincts were not, and the moment my air was cut off I started feeling an indescribable panic that is the most intense thing I have ever felt in my life. It only lasted until I could untie the noise while standing my toes, but it made me realize how very different death is to our biology than our higher mind. Anyway during that situation of panic I did sincerely think I was going to die and it was totally different from other situations in which I was thinking I was dying or expecting to die
>>24689951You seem unable to think.
So is Schopenhauer just stupid wrong about everything and only appeals to intuitive judgements or what? I need a strict answer on whether I just need to start succumbing to Fichte anon's spell and read Fichte completely before Schop
>>24690235Schopenhauer’s magnum opus is well worth reading. His Fourfold Root would be as well excerpt he revised in old age to contain pointless and profuse malding about Hegel even though his publisher begged him not to revise itOutside of that his statements are not really philosophy and fall under his own criticism about Hegel that actual philosophy is about actually proving things, not hypnotic rhetoric
>>24690300>Outside of that his statements are not really philosophy and fall under his own criticism about Hegel that actual philosophy is about actually proving things, not hypnotic rhetoricNo...it cant be...Schopenhauer isnt a fraud...no. Youre casting a spell again...Anyway I can just cope that Philosophy is closer to religion anyway, which it is. Which is bad. And which allows me to dismiss most philosophy anyway, so being "actual" philosophy is maybe not that important!
>>24689493>far more pleasure from eating than we can understand.not sure what compelled you to type this out. i suppose its the similar to the feeling i get when im hungry and eat something.
>>24690308His magnum opus The World as Will and Representation is a great read and you should read it, isn't religion and is an attempt to continue Kant's work except for his moral philosophy, which Schopenhauer thought was begging the question when it came to the categorical imperative. As an aside I prefer the World as Will and Idea as a translation, but the reason a lot of people don't is because Schopenhauer ALSO uses the word Idea as a different concept to idea, here he means it in the Platonic sense, that is a form which precedes an object. The World as Will and Idea distinguishes his terms by capitalizing which he uses the actual word Idea.>>24690309Having seen the way dogs eat and also how fixated they are on food even when they are well-fed. A dog seems to get more out of food than human junkies get out of drugs
>>24689493>>24689626You're a fucking retard with no compassion or ability to understand the world around you. The destruction humans cause to the environment, as well as the existence of factory farming, proves Schopenhauer is 100% correct, even if he didn't mean it that way or could have foreseen the evil humanity does. No "b-b-but you can't measure it" nonsense cope is relevant whatsoever, let alone true. There is more suffering than pleasure in the world, that's literally a fact to anyone with working eyes, a functioning brain, and who isn't a dishonest piece of shit.
>>24689493Anyone who has any personal experience with predator animals also knows that the satisfaction of eating is short-lived and instinctual, while the prey experiences prolonged tissue damage, shock, and extreme distress. Fear isn't the only thing happening when an animal is literally being torn apart alive (nociceptors exist in every vertebrate for a reason). Pretending that prey "don't feel much pain" is just ignorance.And Schopenhauer didn't "misunderstand what pain is." Using BDSM as a counterexample is nonsense. Consensual discomfort during sex isn't the same thing as involuntary suffering. People can eroticize almost anything under the right conditions, that doesn't erase what real agony is when you can't stop it. Same with initiation rites, they only underline Schopenhauer's point that humans invent rituals and meaning to make unbearable pain tolerable.As for the Greeks, of course they knew about physical suffering. Their lives were filled with plagues, wars, starvation, and slavery. They didn't separate "anguish" from pain, they lived with both daily. Oedipus gouging his eyes out shows precisely that psychic torment drives physical torment, not that pain didn't matter.And no, pain isn't "worse today" either. Human neurology hasn't magically changed in the last few centuries. If anything, people in the past endured far more untreated pain from injuries and disease. The only difference is that modern people contrast their relatively comfortable lives with sudden suffering, which makes it feel more shocking.tl;dr Schopenhauer's point holds: suffering outweighs pleasure because it is structurally deeper, longer, and harder to escape. Your counterexamples, predators eating, BDSM, tribal rituals, just prove that you don't understand the scale of what he was saying.
