>>24697634
It’s called trying to be charitable, look for faults in my own writing first, and clear up the issue instead of seething like a retard, because I actually was serious about my questions, so I tried to soften and coddle my tone as much as possible to get my point across without making you seethe and shit up the thread more.

Tone policing on /lit/ of all places is still just conceding the actual argument anyways and complaining someone less proficient in Latin than you didn’t give you a handjob in exchange for you deigning to grace them with your oh-so-superior derision. Done posting on this topic since you already switched off the main issue.

>>24697388
They're trolls. Or maybe just a single one.

If they start out with the bait, people sometimes realize what they're up to and won't engage.
By asking an innocuous question first, they rope people in, and only once they're invested in the conversation, they start with the trolling proper.

Cooked up some more OC.

>>24697731
Please give it a rest.

>>24697959
Rollan

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Youtube thinks Latin is Italian lol

>>24697959
ad Ioannem volvo

>>24698204
Makes sense.

>>24697959
Roll

>>24698283
>1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
>Nolumus autem vos ignorare fratres de dormientibus, ut non contristemini sicut et ceteri, qui spem non habent. Si enim credimus quod Jesus mortuus est, et resurrexit : ita et Deus eos qui dormierunt per Jesum, adducet cum eo. Hoc enim vobis dicimus in verbo Domini, quia nos, qui vivimus, qui residui sumus in adventum Domini, non praeveniemus eos qui dormierunt. Quoniam ipse Dominus in jussu, et in voce archangeli, et in tuba Dei descendet de caelo : et mortui, qui in Christo sunt, resurgent primi. Deinde nos, qui vivimus, qui relinquimur, simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Christo in aera, et sic semper cum Domino erimus. Itaque consolamini invicem in verbis istis.
Enjoyed this roll.

>urge to learn old English swelling again

>>24697959
rool

>>24697959
>>24698977
reerool

>>24698935
VERUS

As Dr. Taylor Jones discussed recently on his YouTube channel, songs can be a good way to learn languages, because a melody really helps with making words stick in your head. So, /clg/, what are your favorite songs in the languages you're studying? Here are a couple of my favorites in Classical Chinese:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP7YQ9WyznQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCREDfUEd3Y
(The first one is even pronounced in Hokkien, which is thought to sound closer than Mandarin to the Middle Chinese the poet would have spoken.)
Here's probably my favorite song in Ancient (well, more Koine I guess) Greek:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-3h9TQ312c
Finally, I'm not studying Sanskrit but this father-daughter team has done Sanskrit versions of a couple of Western pop songs, which I think is a fun sort of gimmick:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1zo9HbJmWA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HR5UQtTBK30

>>24699178
For Latin, typically I try to memorize psalms, or poetry since I can chant it in meter. Similarly, noting especially the tones keeps a consistent flow for Tang poetry which is the extent of my engagement with Classical Chinese, which I just read with Mandarin readings.

I'm considering using Eutropius as my introduction to native classical content since the subject matter is primarily classical, and the style looks like I can already comprehend much of it. Any thoughts on Eutropius?

>>24699315
good choice, he's often among the beginner friendly choices like Caesar and Nepos

>>24697959
why deleted?

>>24699315
Go for it. DCC has a complete version with vowel lengths and footnotes: https://dcc.dickinson.edu/eutropius/breviarium-preface

>>24699632
Roll bait gets usually gets deleted in most boards.

>>24699315
https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/50808

Does anyone know of a competent recording of Egyptological pronunciation? Specifically its varieties of h?
Youtube is overrun by slop, and the few genuine people there suck at speaking their native language, not to mention Egyptian.

People who complain about Ranieri have no idea how lucky they are.

Will we ever found what the fuck went on during initiation in the Eleusinian Mysteries?

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>οἰκέουσι δὲ καὶ ἄλλοι καὶ Λακεδαιμονίων ἄποικοι Κνίδιοι. οἳ τῆς χώρης τῆς σφετέρης τετραμμένης ἐς πόντον, τὸ δὴ Τριόπιον καλέεται, ἀργμένης δὲ ἐκ τῆς Χερσονήσου τῆς Βυβασσίης, ἐούσης τε πάσης τῆς Κνιδίης πλὴν ὀλίγης περιῤῥόου [174.3] (τὰ μὲν γὰρ αὐτῆς πρὸς βορέην ἄνεμον ὁ Κεραμεικὸς κόλπος ἀπέργει, τὰ δὲ πρὸς νότον ἡ κατὰ Σύμην τε καὶ Ῥόδον θάλασσα), τὸ ὦν δὴ ὀλίγον τοῦτο, ἐὸν ὅσον τε ἐπὶ πέντε στάδια, ὤρυσσον οἱ Κνίδιοι ἐν ὅσῳ Ἅρπαγος τὴν Ἰωνίην κατεστρέφετο, βουλόμενοι νῆσον τὴν χώρην ποιῆσαι. ἐντὸς δὲ πᾶσά σφι ἐγίνετο· τῇ γὰρ ἡ Κνιδίη χώρη ἐς τὴν ἤπειρον τελευτᾷ, ταύτῃ ὁ ἰσθμός ἐστι τὸν ὤρυσσον.
madmen lmao

>>24699814
Probably not
Burkert's Greek Religion contains the closest approximation we are likely to get

Why you fags doesn't collaborate with /lang/ in /int/?

>>24699823
What does he say about it?

>>24699814
probably not because they took their oaths seriously. you may catch a wink or two obliquely thobeit in lit

>>24699831
It involves some sort of secret information being divulged along with specialized libations and such. Read the section, it's short

>>24699826
/lang/ is too fast(not always but often), it's cozier here and also rather fitting since it's basically the study of literary languages

>>24699834
How could such a ritual thats supposedly powerful even reemerge and be authentic?

>>24699826
I’m a crossposter

I'm the brit who was a cunt to Jordanon. Feel a bit mean desu.

>>24700273
I was the one who started posting about Lute in both threads. I never engaged with Jordie but I argued the IPAfag Russian a lot.

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>>24697959
Not sure why an image of a Latin-text reading list of Late Roman-Medieval texts would get taken down, so I am going to assume something screwed up with the site or the jannies made a mistake. I figure I'll just touch up a mistake I had made on the original image.

Are there any recommended resources for Hellenistic Greek? Is Attic my best bet? I specifically want to read the Argonautica.

>>24700818
the Argonautica is written in Homeric, so the periodization here helps you little

>>24700793
hope jannies aren't retarded enough to think it's some generic dubs getter, people aren't spamming it

>>24700793
>>24698283
ad Ioannem rursus volvo

>>24700833
Excellent, thank you very much.

>>24700987
this is the thing in general btw, the whole Koine period Greek thing can be a misnomer because someone technically falling in that period could be writing either in a very Atticizing way or, as in this particular example, with the Homeric literary dialect
the general best bet is Attic, it's kinda in the middle if you will, though one can even start from Homeric, some anons ITT did so with Pharr's, can't vouch personally but apparently it's good

>>24699826
i post in latin on /lang/ whenever i feel the mood. what would collabing even entail? i feel like the massive walls of text posted in /clg/ would cause most /lang/er's eyes to gloss over. i know mine do whenever i browse this general

>>24697657
how do you say 'the body is temporary'
>corpus tempora
?

>>24702102
"corpus temporarium est"

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>>24702164
dankeshon here have some gold

>>24699812
Ranieri has some videos for Coptic, I don't know how different that pronunciation is though

>>24699812
Some of the bald man hate seems to stem from how much he over-exaggerates his speech, but I think it’s in large part because he purposely speaks slowly and loudly since most Latinists aren’t anywhere near fluent, so that it helps add to the body of beginner-intermediate level listening.

>>24702852
he is kinda narcissistic and full of himself, but he does have a lot of good content. I thought his IPA videos were better than others I saw on youtube. but yes he is one of the best for Latin/Ancient Greek comprehensible input, along with Found in Antiquity and Satura Lanx

>>24702894
I’ve found Found in Antiquity and Satura Lanx to be kind of grating for a mix of basically opposite reasons to why people may dislike Bald Man, and some of the same reasons why people dislike Bald Man.

Specifically, one of the trade offs of him trying to be engaging and fun is that he comes off goofy. An experienced Latinist might hate this, while when I had just even found out people were learning Latin online, I found it very encouraging.

That one young priest whose name escapes me uploads excellent but more difficult content since he speaks quicker and doesn’t over-enunciate.

>>24702758
Isn't Coptic still spoken?
Just use that

>>24702956
No, it's just a very strangely persistent myth. Every generation of linguists for the last 200 years has said "there's still old people speaking it in rural Egypt". Outside of its use as a liturgical language, the number of Coptic speakers is 0 (unless you count very recent revival efforts, of which I can find little proof).

I knew mentioning the guy was a mistake when I wanted people to discuss the question.
Still, thanks everybody.

In the meantime I read up on the Egyptological pronunciation and found out it's inconsistent across countries and even universities, so where that's the case I'm just going to make some random choices that feel natural to me and then stick with those. I'll call it the Ranieri pronunciation.

>>24702164
>>24702102
In classical Latin you’d see something like this
>corpus est caducum
caducus in this sense means ‘that falls, perishable, fleeting’ which is more poetic than temporarius

>>24699303
One reason I'm considering switching to reading it in Cantonese readings is because you can at least consistently derive the historical 平仄 from them. Though Hokkien would have that and more accurate rhymes, but there aren't as many resources for it.

>>24699812
>Egyptological pronunciation

>>24702102
Corpus non manet, maybe?

>>24702758
He does? I haven't seen them.
>>24703140
You can perfectly well use the pronunciation that liturgical Coptic uses, though, especially since that's what you'll find the most audio recordings of.
>>24703224
The trouble with Egyptological pronunciation is that it's completely artificial; Erasmian was at least someone's plausible guess at how Attic sounded at some point, Egyptological was never even that. I'd either learn actual reconstructed pronunciation or, since resources for that are scare on the ground, learn Coptic and then read Egyptian in Coptic reflexes, the same as the Chinese do with Classical Chinese.

>>24703641
Thanks for the improvement.

Translation challenge:
Easy
Dinner is ready.
Don't look behind!
Painting is hard but I enjoy it.

Medium
If you follow him, don't say I didn't warn you.
Beyond that ridge there may be cattle left by the army.
Building this bridge wasn't easy but had we not completed it, we'd be stuck in hostile territory.

Hard
To find the treasure buried by your great grandfather you must start from the oak tree in the valley next to the road leading towards the city, then, following a carefully placed set of stones, you should be able to find the spot.
The construction of the new temple proved to be more complex and full of challenges than one could've imagined: the terrain was much harder to dig, a drought dried up the nearby springs and required water to be carried from a river two miles from the site and, worse of all, an ominous group of predatory birds constantly assaulted the workers.

>one of the Sanskrit words for wife is masculine
what did they mean by this

Why is Perseus such a clunky piece of shit? It makes my blood boil because it’s so close to being far and away the most valuable tool for studying classical languages

>>24705757
been like that for years, isn't Scaife more or less on par(and stable at least)?

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>>24705719
सु su - to press out juice
वासिनी vasini - mistress

सुवासिनी

>>24705757
1) webscraping
2) get gpt to build you a backend
3) get ai to build you a front end
4) locally host it
5) profit

>>24705665
Cena est parata.
Ne retro videris.
Pingere tamen difficile est gratum.

>>24706740
>videris
should use some version of -spicio, much like english you have a difference between looking and seeing i.e you wouldn't say "don't see there"
>tamen
quamquam

>>24707022
"tamen" is fine in his translation, but it's curious that you commented on that and not the lack of first person indirect object for "gratum est". You should consider offering your own attempt instead of pedantries.

>>24707261
The amount of times I see corrections of the variety where it’s purely a stylistic/tone preference yet the corrector presents it as being outright wrong makes me never want to present my written Latin to anyone.

>>24707022
Ne retrospexeris.

Estne bueno?

>>24707508
>>24707022
I wasn't sure if that was a real word, but it is attested.

https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0059:entry=retrospicio

>>24707513
Finna start dropping medieval-only words or neologisms just to troll perseus users.

>>24707261
>"tamen" is fine in his translation
you are free to provide an example from the literature of tamen used this way, i.e, concessive without being the correlative of e.g quamquam/etsi
>it's curious that you commented on that and not the lack of first person indirect object for "gratum est"
it can be inferred to be mihi, that's fine

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>>24708089

>>24708089
What about this?

>tamen contemptus abs te haec habui in memoria
https://la.wikisource.org/wiki/Eunuchus/Actus_I#170

I was thinking "tamen" could potentially be used in a concessive sense on its own.

>>24708089
"tamen" on its own is an adversative conjunction (AG 223)
>https://dcc.dickinson.edu/grammar/latin/conjunctions
And the English sentence "Painting is hard, but I enjoy it." should be translated as adversative, as there's no concessive conjunction. The first clause is its own fact, not preceded by "though, even though, although, but although" etc.
Per AG 526
>https://dcc.dickinson.edu/grammar/latin/concessive-clauses
>The concessive force lies chiefly in the conjunctions, and is often made clearer by an adversative particle (tamen, certe)
>you are free to provide an example from the literature of tamen used this way, i.e, concessive without being the correlative of e.g quamquam/etsi
Three examples of adversative usage, and there's an entire section in the Lewis Short entry for 'tamen' usage without a correlative
>Divitiacus dixit, scire se illa esse vera; sese tamen amore fraterno commoveri (Caes. B. G. 1, 20)
>expellitur ex oppido Gergoviā; non destitit tamen, (Caes. B. G. 7, 4)
>semper Ajax fortis, fortissimus tamen in furore (Cic. Tusc. 4, 23, 52)
>https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=tamen+ut&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059
>>24708097
>Liv. 3. 46. 8
This is an idiomatic expression of gratitude. Not a statement of what is pleasing/enjoyable and to whom, which requires an indirect object (who is pleased, who is enjoying) or an infinitive as noun (what action is pleasing, what action is enjoyable). Anons attempt
>Pingere tamen difficile est gratum.
lacks an indirect object and is really stating a general truth about painting being pleasing.

>>24708622
>>Divitiacus dixit, scire se illa esse vera; sese tamen amore fraterno commoveri (Caes. B. G. 1, 20)
>>expellitur ex oppido Gergoviā; non destitit tamen, (Caes. B. G. 7, 4)
>>semper Ajax fortis, fortissimus tamen in furore (Cic. Tusc. 4, 23, 52)
these three examples are literally the reason why I corrected it, are you taking the piss? his translation is the equivalent of e.g
>tamen Ajax fortis, fortissumus in furore
does the latter sound the same to you?

>>24705665
Si eum secutus eris, noli dicere me non monuisse te.

Ultra montes, boves forsitan relictae sunt ab exercitu.

Hunc pontem, quamquam facere non facile erat, si tamen hunc non compleverimus, haesitemus adhuc in agro infesto.

>>24708614
that's fine, the miscomprehension is about what tamen is modifying which changes the meaning of the sentence even if slightly in this particular case
>Pingere tamen difficile est gratum.
sounds like (assuming mihi) "I enjoy painting but it's hard"
while
>Pingere difficile est tamen (mihi) gratum
"Painting is hard but I enjoy it"

>>24708658
These examples are all adversative, so why would you use them to correct his attempt with 'quamquam' >>24707022, a concessive conjunction?
>does the latter sound the same to you?
His word order is off, but it's perfectly clear what he was trying to say. And yet, you didn't comment on the word order. You responded with a cryptic "quamquam", which if he had then gone on to use would have reinforced the incorrect interpretation that it needed a concessive conjunction. My point, supported by your misunderstanding of the usage of 'gratum est', is that you're being selectively pedantic, and it shows that you don't care about helping an obvious beginner, you just wanted to contradict someone. Next time just don't respond with incomplete and bad information.

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>>24708761
quamquam translates as although hence replacing tamen makes the sentence similar to what has been asked to translate, pingere, quamquam/etsi difficile, est (mihi) gratum
if anything I avoided the mihi correction precisely to avoid being pedantic since it's understandable to whom it's gratum, but the tamen sounds much more off
I get that you are a spiteful mutant and see everything as being a mortal critique on your person but it's not what I intended if that's any consolation

As the original author of the sentence, I'll submit this alternative version.

Etsi difficile est pingere, gratum tamen est mihi.

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>>24709024
eugepae

>>24705719
>wife was neuter, and its cognates in other languages are
gee, idk, anon
could it be that semantics have nothing to do grammar?

It's sort of hilarious that the largely atheist polyglot guys talk a lot about using Harry Potter for polyliteracy because it's basically the closest thing redditors have to the Bible, i.e. a book that is deeply familiar, relatively easy to read, long, and translated into a bunch of languages.

>>24709792
I don't think they think about that that way at all, since that would be retarded (sure, they are, but you know)
I think they are just personally more familiar with it themselves and expect everyone else to be as well

>>24709792
holy kek great mental link. fell out of my chair laughing.

>>24709826
Alexander Arguelles has a video nearly a half hour long talking about "the harry potter stage" of language learning where he even says there may be other "books of this type" (500k+ wordcount, translated into many languages, relatively easy to read and familiar to many people) without ever mentioning the Bible.

Accumulating sentence data... VGH...

Does anyone have any opinion on the book LOGOS published in 2023? It seems to be an effort at replicating something like LLPSI but for Ancient Greek, but with an introductory chapter teaching the alphabet first. I have a .pdf, and I'm considering eventually using it as a way to build some basic comfort with Greek script so that I can read cleanly enough for eventually doing the Anabasis and the Gospels in Lute. So all I would need is some basic comfort with Greek text and a basic grasp on the most common words, since easy lookups and textual familiarity can do a lot to make the text more beginner friendly for me.

>>24710058
>I'm considering eventually using it
You have the PDF what the fuck are you doing asking here instead of spending 20 minutes trying it out?

>as a way to build some basic comfort with Greek script
By far the easiest part of the Greek language. So many people assume that since it's hard for children to learn the alphabet, it must be hard for adults to learn a new one. Wrong. It can be done in 20 minutes. Go learn it and stop waffling about it here.

Been studying Latin a few weeks now and I have no trouble with reading, but I still keep forgetting the endings whenever I write myself. It’s just grinding and grinding in the beginning, isn’t it.

>>24710065
>>I'm considering eventually using it
>You have the PDF what the fuck are you doing asking here instead of spending 20 minutes trying it out?
Because I know next to nothing about ancient greek and the entire textbook, including the headers, are in ancient greek, so I don’t even know how much the book covers. If it covers a roughly equivalent amount to LLPSI it should be great but I had heard some implication that it might be substantially more basic in its coverage. Also it opens the thread to discussion on a novel textbook and bumps the thread, dickhead.

>>24710127
If you are a beginner it doesn't matter what it covers. Go learn.
>bumps the thread
who the fuck cares, go read a book
do not reply, go read your textbook

>>24710127
NTA, but the other anon makes a good point. Why not just try it? What's the worst that could happen? You learn Greek wrong and never can learn the language thereafter? Just give it a try and see how you like it. This is also a good example of someone coming in asking a question and then lashing out when someone bothers to give them a helpful answer. (Even though it's not what you asked, the answer was more important than an answer to the question you asked.)

Now, to directly answer the question you asked, I've never used it, but Luke Ranieri mentioned it in his video on the Ranieri-Roberts method. My recollection is that it aspires to be something like LLPSI for Greek, but that it is not as succesful as LLPSI, and I think also that it doesn't go as far as LLPSI (relatively speaking) in coverage of grammar. And he also complained that it lacked macrons. Check out that video in any case because he reviews multiple Greek readers. He suggests reading as many of them as you can and has a spreadsheet suggesting where to read which chapter of which book.

>I've never used it, but
then why are you talking about it? Because your e-hero did?

>>24710101
Absolutely, and assuming you're not in a class where you have to produce them from memory for a grade, you should be putting much more stock in your ability to recognize the endings than to produce them. You will learn the tables quickly enough, particularly if you frequently practice writing them from memory and correcting your mistakes. There will come a day when you realize that remembering endings is the least difficult part of learning Latin.

>>24710194
Why am I talking about it? I think I answered that in my post. I recommended a particular video that my e-hero created where he talks about the book in question. Here's a link if you'd like to watch it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2vwb1wVzPec

>>24710214
>ranierei-roberts approach
why is he like this

I'm considering doing classics online but the problem is, there's zero actual spoken Latin - there's very little actual interaction with lecturers, in fact or other students.

So my question is, is Latin mostly learned in Classics for the purpose of the texts or is it ideal to speak it too?

>>24710214
>Do THIS to learn Greek!
>no, I did not but you should

>>24710222
Mostly for texts
Some speak ancient languages but they are few and far between. University programs are centered around philology and reading

>>24710220
If I'm going to invest any serious time in a language learning method, I want to be sure it has the Ranieri seal of approval. And in this case, as I understand it, Ranieri was the one who compiled all the readers into the reading program in his spreadsheet.

>>24710225
I don't understand what you're objecting to. First, that someone can only advise others to do exactly what he did himself, without learning from his mistakes or from new things he learned since hebdid what he did? Second that Ranieri didn't read those books, or that he didn't get better at Greek by reading lots of Greek? He's just creating a reading list of relatively easy texts that can be taken up by beginners.

>>24710222
Are you complaining about a particular school's program or about classics programs in general? Why do you want to "do classics" in the first place?

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>>24710185
>Why not just try it?
I’m not sure why I post on 4chan at all.

>This is also a good example of someone coming in asking a question and then lashing out when someone bothers to give them a helpful answer.
We just disagree on what we consider helpful. IMO if I ask for subjective opinions on a textbook and someone just ignores the question and swears at me it’s not like I’m being more vitriolic if I call them a dickhead. A bigger problem is that the regular posters complain about the thread being slow but then sperg out if a beginner asks a question in the “incorrect” way.

Thanks for the bald man info. I’ll check his video out. The summary you posted is roughly what I had heard, a slightly less advanced LLPSI, but this makes sense since Greek should be taken a little slower at first.

>>24710172
I don’t like using textbooks and I shitpost during classes, or I read with Lute lately. I’ve been reading for 1-3 hours on any given day, but I mainly check grammar textbooks for like 15-30 minutes max once or twice a week. So I’m sort of looking for the minimally effective dose of textbook reading priming so I can escape using textbooks as my main source of input and instead use them as explanatory/referential material, since Lute effectively minimizes the “friction” that makes just reading day one with a dictionary otherwise prohibitively difficult.

Also, I’m only even speculating on using it anyways, since I’m not far along enough in Latin for my Greek to justifiably be anything more than dabbling or a curiosity.

>>24710210
This. Just reading and recognizing is most of the battle, so just do that.

>>24710267
No one complains about the thread speed.
Go read. Why are you posting? Do you want to learn Greek? Go open a textbook and read it, it doesn't matter which one.
Instead of checking out youtube videos you can start learning Greek right now, but something tells me you won't. You will reply to this post and a a dozen others ITT, you will watch hours of youtube videos, you will google and blog and hem and haw but the one thing you will not do is read when reading is the only way you are going to learn.

>>24710275
>do not reply
Anything to not read, huh? Anything but learning.
Do not reply. Go read.

>>24710285
>>24710288
Hypocrites.

>>24710300
I read Greek and Latin
Go read, do not reply
Get off 4chan and read

>>24710300
We're not the ones claiming we want to actually learn anything.

>>24710227
I figured and hoped, actually, thanks

>>24710253
Not complaining - I'm pointing out the context of there'll be quite literally a zero percent chance of speaking it through the cousre and was wondering if this would be much of a disadvantage

>>24710311
To clarify you will be expected to pronounce texts and read them aloud but not spontaneously speak as with a living language. Some take umbrage with this, I personally am fine with it and it seems you are too.

>>24710302
>>24710303
I read Latin. I read Latin today. I am curious about Greek.

I will say that the best advice I ever got on here that I actually followed was “what textbooks should I read to learn Latin?” An anon told me to read the first 10 chapters of LLPSI and Wheelock before opening /clg/ again. However, that is not the response I got here, because that was real advice beyond “just do it lmao.” However, your advice is probably good too. I think that if I do ever crack open a greek textbook with serious intent I will refrain from posting about Greek for a time.

Another thing I’m curious about is, besides the obvious of just doing diglot bibles, which I would certainly try if I did Greek, what resources exist in Latin/Greek for learning Greek via Latin? I can find basic stuff like a bible glossary in both languages fairly easily, but I’m curious if anything more obscure or modern exists. I saw bald man has a series with some Black guy which sounds hilarious because of how slow and over the top they speak for learners to understand better.

>>24710349
>Go read, do not reply

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>>24710358
Look at this cool vase :^)

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>>24705665
this was hard

ἐσκεύασται τὸ δεῖπνον
μὴ λεῦσσ' ὀπίσσω
ἡ ζωγραφία χαλεπὴ μέν, ἡδεῖα δέ μοι

ἐὰν αὐτῷ ἕπῃ, μή μ'ἔπειτ' αἰτιῶ τοῦ μὴ παραινεῖν σοι
κινδυνεύει πέραν ἐκείνου τοῦ λόφου πρόβατα τῷ στόλῳ ὐπολελεῖφθαι
οὐχί γ' ἦν ῥᾳδίως ταύτην τὴν γέφυραν οἰκοδομεῖν ἀλλ'εἱ μὴ 'ποιήσαμεν, ἔτι καὶ νῦν εἴημεν ἄν ἐν πολεμίᾳ γῇ

σε βουλόμενον τὸν ὁ πρόπαππος κατώρυξε θησαυρὸν εὑρεῖν δεῖ, ἀρχόμενον παρὰ τῇ δρυὶ τῇ ἐντὸς τῆς νάπης παρὰ τῇ εἰς ἄστυ φερούσῃ ὁδῷ, ἀτραπὸν βαδίζειν ἐξ ἀκριβῶς διατεθεῖσι λίθοις τεταγμένην ἕως τὸν τόπον εὕρῃ
ἡ τοῦ καινοῦ νεὼ οἰκοδόμησις πάνυ γε τραχύτερον συνέβη καὶ πράγματα παρέσχεν τοῦ τίς ποτε προσδέχοιτο· ἡ μὲν γὰρ χθὼν τὸ ὀρύττειν πολλῷ χαλεπωτέρα, αὐχμὸς ξηρὰς καθέστησεν τὰς πέλας κρήνας ὥστε τὸ ὕδωρ δεῖσθαι διαβιβάζειν ἐκ ποταμοῦ τινος ἑξκαίδεκα στάδια ἀπέχοντος τοῦ τόπου, καὶ δὴ καὶ τὸ ἔσχατον κακοί τινες οἰωνοἱ τοῖς ἐργαζομένοις συνεχῶς προσέβαλλον

My recall and comprehension have skyrocketed since I went from no exercise to an hour of cardio every day. In case any other fat fucks out there needed to hear that.

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the OE natural method book is surprisingly popular on pirate sites.

>>24711168
Is it good?

>>24711168
Just joined the club. It's interesting and seems well written. There were only a few words I couldn't figure out in the first chapter, which was surprising given the lack of Orberg-style illustrations, but I'm sure difficulty ramps up quick as in LLPSI. I'm a bit disappointed that there's no pronunciation guide (unless I missed it) because reading aloud helps so much.

>>24711564
>pronunciation guide
It's on the author's yt channel
Colin Gorrie, his name. Fella is a mad linguist who makes his own family of constructed language.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDFAZO8ANXg

But if you want something more in detail, Simon Roper made a huuuuuge pronunciation guide to OE(over 2 hours).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNQo54Ddte8

>>24711168
>>24711610
I wish there was a book like this for Old Norse.
Crawford was working on a textbook, but it was ages ago he last spoke about it (unless he dropped hints in unrelated videos).

>>24705719
The word "wife" itself was neuter when it had a gender.

>>24711564
The most sensible approach to Old English is to read it in Modern English reflexes, the same as an English-speaker will by default do with Middle English.

Plorat is present active, ploret is present subjunctive... a->e = subjunctive. This language is easy wtf.

>>24712476
Why on Earth would it be embarrassing? Most people would consider it amazing.

>>24712411
>aget is indicative future
>agat is subjunctive present
b-bros??? wtf????

>>24712411
The rule my Spanish teacher taught me is "yo, corta la o, opuesto". That is, take the first person singular, remove the -o, and then use forms with -e- if it's an -ar verb and -a- if it's an -ir or -er verb. I know the way it works in Latin is slightly more complicated, but it seems like basically a variation on the same theme.

>>24712846
>dicam is 1p sing indicative future
>dicam is 1p sing subjunctive present
too fucking hard i quit

>>24712846
>>24712885
Surely by the time I finish reading all 3,000 pages of the Bible on Lute I’ll have figured this out if I’m paying attention.

>>24712885
>indicative future is the same as the subjunctive present
>the future is just a present hypothetical
>the future is fake

>>24712846
i be reading engrish and i be like is read like red or is red like read
tf?

I want to learn greek but it feels like people would think youre a classics or religion major if you learned it

>>24712952
you'se a whole ass bitch respectfully

>>24712952
>I want to
>but people would think
sad sack pussy

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Interesting to see how many terms carry over from 32/55ths of John into the other Gospels and Responsorium Ad Luther. I have just been reading John, so I wanted to see what my starting point was shaping up to be for the other texts. I was surprised that Matthew had proportionally the highest carryover, being only barely lower than John itself. Since "terms" in Lute are individual inflected forms, this in large part reflects the style of the authors, and what wording they tend to use. It seems to signal that Matthew and John are actually the most similar inflection/vocab choices. Mark may be lower just due to its brevity reducing the odds of shared inflections appearing, but Luke is the clear odd one out due to both being lengthy and the least similar. When I was copying some of these from SacredTextArchive I skipped to a random page of Deuteronomy and could read all but one or two of the words.

Still, 3/5ths of reading through John covering about 75% of the inflected forms within, AND 75% of Matthew is a pleasant surprise, 50-60% on Mark/Luke is a nice bonus, and >33% on a random lengthy Humanist work like Thomas More is really encouraging to me for the long term. Slow, high-analysis reading has lately given way to surprisingly extensive chunks of just scanning.

Overall, really happy with the results so far of the "pick a long text and just read" method. Excited to finish John and see where that puts the other gospels, then finish the other gospels and see where that puts me, then finish acts (politics/law/etc.) and see where that puts me, then read the whole bible eventually and see where that puts me. I think memorizing the Psalms someday beyond the couple I have done already could be awesome, but the idea of memorizing more of the Aeneid appeals to me too. Just need to keep the faith that carefully reading 750k words of Latin will get me somewhere if I pay close attention to the grammar.

>>24712952
If you don't learn Greek I'm going to think you're a liberal arts major

>>24712952
Why does something someone may think, that you could dispel in the first sentence of a given undergraduate conversation, before they even know you know greek at all anyways, matter?

>>24710210
>>24710280
Thank you for the advice. I took a break from my textbook just to write endings over and over, but I will resume with the next chapter.

>>24705665
飧已成。
勿顧!
畫之難也,而吾喜之。

若隨之而遭其閔兇,勿怨未警。
嶺后或有軍投之牛焉。
成梁非易,而如未遂,滯于敵地。

>>24713103
Despising classics is the realm of engineering underperformers who thought they were the cream of the crop because they passed high school calculus.

>>24710220
Desperate vanity.

>>24710220
Eccentric genius.

>>24713416
Also the realm of (((foreigners))). One wonders why...

>>24713353
You can decide what works best, but I wouldn't recommend focusing so intensively on rote memorization that you have to take a break from your textbook. It's more effective to have repeated exposures to it than a single long intensive session. Writing out a table multiple times can be effective, like running through a piece of music multiple times from beginning to send that you are trying to memorize, but learning Latin tables is a lot easier than learning a piano song. A quick but effective exercise is to try your best to write out the table once from memory, review for mistakes, and then copy out the correct table one more time (as much as possible from your now-corrected memory). Better to do that a few times throughout the day or even just once a day than to spend an extended session copying out a table over and over again.

Also, the way Latin is usually taught is to use limited grammar in order to not overwhelm the student with so many endings. So unless you're trying to do the Ranieri-Downling method (which I think inadvisable), you really shouldn't have very many tables to learn at only a few weeks in.

>>24713416
>Pro dolor, sunt sat multi, qui mira progressione artium abnormiter capti, Latinitatis studia et alias id genus disciplinas repellere vel coërcere sibi sumant... Hac ipsa impellente necessitate, contrarium prosequendum iter esse putamus. Cum prorsus in animo id insideat, quod magis natura et dignitate hominis dignum sit, ardentius acquirendum est id, quod animum colat et ornet, ne miseri mortales similiter ac eae, quas fabricantur, machinae, algidi, duri et amoris expertes exsistant

Oh no, "mira progressione artium abnormiter capti" bros...

>>24713416
And classics is the last refuge of those too dimwitted to learn a real modern language.

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>>24713462
the ancient Genii smile upon him as I do

>>24713609
You got me there. Modern Greek is way harder than ancient Greek. It probably reflects the higher IQs of the post-modern nu-people.

>>24713609

>>24713609
behold the wit of an engineering underperformer

thiel's slaves mad af fr fr

How feasible is it to study Greek and Latin simultaneously? I have lots of leisure time but no idea or plan on how to do this.

>>24713870
It's impossible. Better to not even try. You might seriously hurt yourself.

nothing is better than the combat of two hostile influences shaking hands amicably across the ford of strife

>>24713870
learn greek and sanskrit at the same time, it's much more doable.

>>24713894
what about tongue kissing while going raw missionary style?

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do not debase the English language further
you shall be punished
infact you already have been
>>24713896

>>24713870
they are different yet similar enough that you'll have both carry over to one another without the confusion of languages that are too similar, but at the end of the day a basic variable in this racket of language learning is how much effective progress you can make without burning out or being discouraged e.g maybe you start doing both, but because you are splitting your workload you'll lose enthusiasm due to slower results vis-a-vis putting all work into one first, seeing some good results, maybe reaching the intermediate plateau where you'll start reading extensively, then also start leaning the other
I only started learning Greek when my Latin was decent enough to tackle Virgil

How many people ITT have read over 1000 pages in any single classical language?

>>24714175
useless metric, ask for a word count.

>>24714217
Useless and vague are two different things.
Assuming a page is 250-400 words, lets take the midpoint of 325 per page, so 325,000 words.

De Bello Gallico is ~50,000 words.

>>24714175
both for Latin and Greek I think so

Women love it when you send them a couple lines of love poetry in Latin. They don't have an education with which to call my Latinity shit.

>>24714252
Does re-reading count because I've re-read DBG and six of Cicero's speeches 7-8 times each

>>24714550
No.

>>24714217
>standard metric utilized by every Classics department worldwide
>useless
>>24714175
Latin definitely, several thousand. Working on Greek

beginner here, which book do I get for Greek grammar

>>24714955
Any. What matters is that you begin. This thread will not help you, posting on 4chan is a waste of time. Pick a book, any book, and read it. look in the mega, there are dozens.

How easy is Old English to learn for a modern speaker? I've been listening to lectures on the history of the english language lately and I'm finding myself increasing interested in the period.

>>24714955
several popular choices in the FAQ

>>24714987
Do you enjoy reading sermons and gospels?
(I do and it is by these I learn OE)
When I tried to use a grammar book it was a nightmare

>>24714987
depends how much experience you have with inflected languages

>>24715001
I enjoy them well enough. They aren't my favorite thing to read but if the prose/verse of it is interesting/beautiful I'm interested. My chief interest is alliterative verse, however little of it there may be.

>>24715103
I know latin, but that's it.

>>24713609
Are you suggesting modern languages are harder?

>>24715266
Personally I find that my Latin has advanced quicker with substantially less effort than my modern lang because I just read a lot and learned case endings and have no need to actually speak to people. Modern languages may or may not be harder depending entirely on the language’s similarities to English. Latin has probably the most literary similarity to English of any language if you have a good knowledge of Latinate words. It’s just that inflections themselves are really alien for English speakers, otherwise the vocab is easy, and it’s all literary.

To posit for example that Latin isn’t substantially easier than a more alien language like Hungarian, Chinese, Japanese, or Arabic for example would be pants-on-head retarded, but I have seen some do it. I think it comes from anal retention of grammar dramatically slowing the amount of reading people do. Also, the standard of “knowing” is often different. If someone can read a sentence in Japanese and understand it’s nuanced meaning, they know it. To some people if someone can read a sentence in Latin, understand a nuanced meaning, but can’t tell them exactly what form of the ablative is used in the phrase, they don’t know it. The reverse is true in that someone wouldn’t really be considered proficient in a modern language if they lacked fluency (fluidity) of understanding and expression, and instead had to decipher everything and turn it into English.

A lot of the dramatic differences of approach, culture, and results among latinists has to do with this IMO, because you put people who want to read an indo-european language with easy vocab as quick as they can for fun with the most fun-hating anally-retentive grammar nazis on Earth. Alternatively, it’s because you mix people who are learning a language with people who want to study formal grammar.

TL;DR yes many modern languages are absolutely more difficult than Latin, but this perception that the father of 2/3 of English vocab is uniquely difficult comes from sekret-club elitism.

>>24715420
What about the fact that all you have in classical languages is generally Literachur whereas in modern languages you can read kids' books, watch easy YouTube videos, etc?

>>24714550
Re-reading something multiple times and getting to know it well is more valuable than satisfying arbitrary metrics on 4chan.

>>24715425
Well if we narrow the scope, firstly reading is easier than speaking/listening. Secondly people when asked if Russian for example is easier than Latin they simultaneously assume that Latin will both use hilariously inefficient and difficult methods to teach, and will set the highest prose of Cicero as the benchmark for learning, while living languages will use much easier works as benchmarks.

For example, being able to comfortably read something like the narrative books of the bible would land someone firmly in the intermediate range, even lower intermediate for the easiest books while being able to read the advanced poetry and theology/laws would be more properly considered advanced. So that is a good text for comparison of the difficulty of either language, since it’s literally the same text. I would have trouble believing that Latin would be more difficult for someone to read the narrative books than Russian.

People seem to forget for some reason that Cicero’s oratory is literally the peak of Latin prose and is notoriously complex so then they compare the difficulty of that to the difficulty of reaching a substantially lower proficiency in a different tongue.

>>24715448
>never ask questions
I was just curious big dawg. I reread as much as possible. How much do you read your langs?

>>24715449
My point is that there's less very easy stuff to practice on.

>>24715459
And my point is that once there’s “enough” it doesn’t really matter how much there is, and Latin has enough.

>>24715482
Yeah, and probably the most of any dead language by a good margin.

>>24715489
Classical Chinese was in standard usage until the 1920s so it might have it beat.

>>24715578
Maybe, I don't think there are a whole lot of children's books that I know of and a lot of the later texts are in somewhat bastardized CC, but it's probably up there.

>>24715578
>>24715584
Education in CC usually started with the three character classic 三字经 written in the song dynasty which has a simple structure to help children learn characters, grammar, and Confucian ideas
After that they would go directly onto the analects

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Should I buy this? Will it make me able to read Old Norse poetry?

>>24715644
Yes, I'm aware. That's still quite a bit denser and more in need of explanation than most modern children's books, but granted that CC is up there with Latin in that regard.

>>24715647
This is an edition. You read them AFTER you learned the language.

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Ecce, autismum!

>>24717105
seemed excessive at first but I guess it can be quite useful, is it automatic?

>>24717105
Wouldn't it be autismus? It's ecce homo, not ecce hominem.

>>24717105
Anything to avoid reading smoothly.

>>24717425
Aint dat da vocative or sum shiet? Agreed.

>>24715647
there's more ON poetry than skaldic such

>>24711564
>>24712136
worst fucking approach imagineable

>>24717628
ESL detected.

>>24717105
Reminds me of the note-taking style of female college students.

>>24717264
>seemed excessive
Yeah, I even color stuff I had already known beforehand or could tell by context just for completion's sake (also for this showcasing). I've considered not doing that anymore to reflect progress.
>it can be quite useful
I've been slacking with verbs. Going
>3 for third conjugation
>green stem highlight for indicative
>yellow text suffix for simple future
gamifies the memorization and solidifies it through practice. It's more enjoyable compared to just staring at a conjugation table and reciting to myself "3rd Conj. Act. Ind. Sim. Fut. ends with -it" or grinding verb conjugation flashcards.
>is it automatic
No, but wouldn't that be amazing? This is a substitute for scriptorium (aka precursor of the the Ranieri-Arguelles Method™). Typing is too fast and not as... intimate? as handwriting. Going out of the way to add multiple colorings to most words somewhat makes up for the time needed to have the word set into my head that writing by hand usually affords. It also helps with rereading something with too many new words. With this I just have to worry about memorizing the definition of a word after my first dictionary lookup.
>>24717425
Good point. Wiktionary uses accusative. After searching around, it turns out that preferred case varied over the years. It seems that
>pre-Classical = accusative
>Classical = nominative
>post-Classical = accusative
>>24717443
>Anything to avoid reading smoothly
Not knowing what gender, part of speech, inflection group, etc. a word is breaks my reading flow anyway (though this example in particular didn't have many which I couldn't tell by context) and this helps me not check a dictionary again. Parallel reading with an English translation isn't always good enough to figure it out quickly because they're never 1:1. That said, once I've reread the passage to the point of sightreading, it's easy to ignore the coloring.
>vocative
I'm speaking to /clg/, not my autism.
>>24717799
wtf I love female college students now?

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Quid sursum, mi nigri?

>>24718202
>3 for third conjugation
>green stem highlight for indicative
>yellow text suffix for simple future
Just read bro. I say this nicely but you are wasting your time and clogging your brain up with color associations that will be pointless in the long term. identifying these things comes naturally with like two weeks of daily reading

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>>24718243
novus dies ad pecuniam acquirendam

>>24718330
Alius dies, alius denarius, ut aiunt. Capere lupas et pecuniam. Clama ad te, puer.

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how tf do you even read this style of handwriting

>>24718202
I see, makes perfect sense. When I did scriptorium for LLPSI I just did handwriting with the Arguelles(tm) method instead because of that.

I suppose when interpreting another’s Latin I should first assume they meant exactly what they said and try to find a possible workable meaning instead of assuming it’s “incorrect.”

>>24717105
Ha it just occurred to me to actually read what you posted and I immediately saw that it was Psalm 1. Good on you Anon. I wouldn’t personally bother doing something like this for the rest of the Bible but the psalms and probably song of songs are worth it since they’re proper poetry. I have done handwritten scriptorium for a psalm or two. What’s this app?

I asked on /lang/ about Old Norse and was told to come here. Has anyone learnt it to any degree, is the corpus as fulfilling as Latin and Greek?

>>24718559
>fulfilling
that depends on you, doesn't it

>>24718567
That depends on your perspective, doesn't it?

>>24718559
I haven’t at all but I always figured Old English would be more “fulfilling” even though the corpus is so small

>>24718921
"Fulfilling" is subjective so no, it depends on you

>>24718559
If you've read Old Norse literature in translation, found it fascinating and also want to study a medieval language then you should consider trying out Old Norse
http://www.vsnrweb-publications.org.uk/Introduction%20to%20sources.pdf
Auto-download for a summary of Old Norse literature
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015001017519&seq=7
Best textbook in English in my opinion

>>24719354
Btw I think Old Norse prose has a very steep initial learning curve but once you get past that it becomes a lot easier
Imagine reading Familia Romana and then discovering that Latin prose doesn't get any more complicated or difficult than that
After you get past that initial stage the difficulty of Old Norse becomes learning new vocabulary and new meanings for words you already know

>>24719398
*After you get past that initial stage the difficulty of Old Norse prose
I find Old Norse poetry to be very frustrating and difficult so I won't comment on it

I'm looking for a textbook/reader, I forgot it's author's name, but what distinguished it was that it had, at least in the beginning, simple texts on geometry or math in general. I believe the author was an American from late 19th or early 20th century, i.e. at the initial phase of the "modern" Latin textbook with "natural method" and macrons and all that.

>>24700793
roll

Are there any good anthologies of Renaissance or Early Modern Latin?

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>>24719791
>It is, therefore, a living form of the Holy Grail, sanctified by the blood of the Sun. Perching upon the flamelike uprights of her throne are two of her most sacred birds, the sparrow and the dove; the nub of this symbolism must be sought in the poems of Catullus and Martial.
>THE GOLDEN ASS, by Apuleius. Valuable for those who have the wit to understand it.

What did he mean by this?

>>24719398
> a very steep initial learning curve
In what way? Vocabulary is often close to English, and its size also seems moderate (at least for the family sagas). Grammar is also surely more intuitive for speakers of Germanic languages, if it objectively even reaches the complexity of Latin.

Friend of mine assumes that Greek has a steeper learning curve at the beginning, but is otherwise easier than Latin.

>>24719791
The i tatti library.

>>24720485
https://www.marathonfusion.com/
Self-important alchemyfags BTFOd by good old “mundane” nuclear physicists.
>b-but muh drug addict orgy indulging for demonic power Crowley said I would get infinite money!!

>>24720713
I've seen people say the same thing about Sanskrit. Latinbros, are we the gigabrains?

Is it worth learning CC if you have 0 interested in any of the modern Chinese languages

>>24720864
I wonder if Sanskrit and Greek feel "easier" later because the early stages necessitate such hard work, whereas one can breeze through LLPSI and be caught unawares by authentic texts. Just a thought.

>>24720867
Do you have an interest in Chinese culture or history?

Man, wtf, why can't I do this Latin thing? I've been at it for 2 weeks, and I can't remember even the first declensions.

>>24721022
>Man, wtf, why can't I do this Latin thing?
Cool! A newcomer. I wonder if he's going to answer his own question.
>I've been at it for 2 weeks
Yes, yes he is!

>>24721022
Ranieri-Dowling method. NOW.

>>24721022
brain remember thing when you think it more

>>24721022
You hardly know what the cases are even for just starting out. Hell, even the best Latinists still don't undersand what the ablative case is for. Start by focusing on two cases (nominative and accusative) and work out your way from there.

>>24720867
is it worth Latin if you have no interest in any of the modern romance languages?

>>24721036
>>24721051
>>24721054
>>24721082
My thing right now is
A) I can do parts individually okay, but when they're all together, suddenly it becomes a clusterfuck and I don't get it
B) When there's a word ending in -is, I default to thinking it's genitive. But then it might be pl.Dat or pl.Abl or it might just be a thing where fortis means fortunate, but also strong and they aren't connected and you basically just have to guess. It's just fucking weird and seems like very much guesswork

>>24721124
Moron. Give up.

>>24721124
Don't listen to >>24721131. This is normal at two weeks in.
All of your problems are because you are two weeks in. One learns Latin with consistency, not in passionate bursts.

did any of you have to do Latin in school?
I had it for two years and was pretty good but gave it up to keep doing Spanish

>>24720496
I think the vocabulary size for the sagas (ignoring the poetry) is small, maybe the top 1000 words will give you something like 90-95% of a randomly selected saga page
The difficulty I was referring to is learning to recognise inflected forms

>>24721245
>maybe the top 1000 words will give you something like 90-95% of a randomly selected saga page
Hm, I wonder if there's an easy way to gage the truth of this?

>>24721278
It'd be very tedious work without a lemmatiser and a good frequency list across the entire corpus

>>24721124
if it makes you feel any better I was where you are six months ago and it all just started to click over time. you're exercising your brain. keep reading and rereading

>>24721134
This is correct 100%

>>24721124
Easiest way to get over this is readers. Readers readers readers readers readers. You need to spend some time intensely focused so you can grasp these endings intuitively, but with rereading, again and again, to create fluidity of reading comprehension (this is actually what fluency means).

Most famous reader is LLPSI, I’m partial to Latin by the Nature Method, which is a little more gradual in its difficulty curve, and introduces new grammar rules much slower. Best of both worlds is just to read both. In my personal experience I did close readings of every LLPSI chapter and then handwrote the chapter up to and including chapter 10, and after that I found integrating declensions or conjugations introduced later or in actual readings to be less than 1/10th as difficult.

It’s like a lot of skills, in that there’s sort of an 80/20 rule. You want a chunk of your time for those first few months to be dedicated to that super slow, precise, analytical reading (and wheelock style translation/grammar work can be very good too) but then a bedrock must be constructed from rereading what you have already analyzed.

Or you just sit down with wheelock and work your ass off, but that’s less fun IMO.

>>24720713
I maybe get the angle(has the article, less cases so more prepositions, syntax more constrained), although Greek's lexical unfamiliarity will also make you sweat more than Latin's

>>24720496
>seems
>surely
thank you professor for your valuable input

>>24721245
> The difficulty I was referring to is learning to recognise inflected forms
I see, thanks. Still, you'd have the same problem with any other language? Then again, you didn't claim that other languages' learning curves aren't steep as well.

>>24721858
It was a question, you sperg. I don't know ON, that's precisely why I asked; I just provided some context for where that question is coming from.

>>24721022
>>24721124
My advice would be to leave this general forever. Every time you get the urge to visit, read some Latin instead, and you'll soon be at a higher level than almost everyone here.

Note how still no one answered in the positive to the query about the 1000 pages above, which is not even a high bar. Very basic advice about how to start out is the best you can hope to find here.

>>24722501
I did but your advice is otherwise spot on.
This general sucks and has almost nothing of value.

>>24722489
Basically in most languages the difficulty with inflections is recognising what the inflection is, for example what case the noun or adjective is in, what mood the verb is in, etc
In Old Norse you have an added challenge of recognising what the actual word is since inflectional endings affect the stem of words which in turn can trigger some rules for example consonants which disappear when placed in front of a certain vowel
If you don't study the numerous rules that affect Old Norse phonetics, a lot of Old Norse would appear highly irregular and so that's why I think Old Norse has an initial difficulty curve
One bonus is that it's far more interesting to learn about these rules than it is memorising large Latin conjugation or declension tables
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_umlaut

>>24722585
Btw I've never seen anyone mention this so I might just be ignorant but one problem I have with Old Norse is that they seem to have really packed a lot of words with different meanings
I know this is the case with a lot of languages but Old Norse seems particularly egregious and there are just so many of them, also lots of phrasal verbs
It makes finding the meaning of particular instances of words quite difficult unless you're reading an edition with an included glossary of which there are a few (essential imo)
There are Hapax Legomena which you'll encounter and words which scholars have competing theories as to their meanings

>>24722585
>>24722619
This fully answers my question, thanks for the effortpost.

>>24722619
In other words, you already have to know what it says to understand what it means?

>>24721124
Your biggest problem starting out is that you don't know any vocabulary yet. When you know that "fortis" is 3rd declension, you will know that "fortis" is not dative or ablative plural because it uses the 3rd declension endings and not the 1st/2nd declension endings. There's a reason that languages are usually taught starting with simple constructions and limited vocabulary and then gradually building in complexity. If you're using a textbook, you're probably going too fast. There's no reason why after just two weeks the sentences have gotten so complicated that they've become (in your words) "a clusterfuck." (If you're not using a textbook and you're just trying to read "authentic" texts with the aid of declension tables and a dictionary, you need to be prepared to settle for less than 100% comprehension.)

Your other problem is that the -is ending for the 3rd declension genitive (or nominative) singular is not the same as the dative/ablative plural you're confusing it with. The genitive -is has a short vowel, and the dative/ablative ending is -īs with a long vowel. If you're using a textbook, the textbook should have these differences marked, and if the textbook has these differences marked, you should be paying close attention to them. Most texts that are not for beginners do not have these markings, so you should firmly learn these quantities for the endings and for your core vocabulary.

>>24722507
But if I left the general, instead of asking others whether they've read 1,000 pages, I might have to read 1,000 pages myself! If that comes out to 325,000 words, and I can read at an average pace of 100 words per minute, by my calculations, that means I would have to read for over 54 hours to attain such a number! Who in this day and age has 54 hours to waste reading old languages?

>>24722501
It’s because very few people people treat Latin like a language to be learned and read and instead as a grammar to be studied so you can correct other people online.

>>24714275
>>24714943
Hail a true Latinist and a true Classicist.

Man, missed several people who did read that much.
And I'm pretty sure the Apu poster is also up there.
I'm wondering whether there's anyone who did for any language that's not Latin or Greek.

>>24717628
Why is it the worst approach imaginable? It works for the Chinese.

>>24720867
It's worth leaning if you're interested in the stuff that's written in CC.

>>24723792
Their script has only loose ties to phonetics which largely hold up since it’s just pronouncing some characters sort of like some of their components. An alphabet is a fundamentally different way to communicate than a logographic script.

Also, if using traditional characters, the characters are written the same in Mandarin and in Classical Chinese. Same to some degree with Hanja and Korean.

>>24724138
The phonetic components are a much better fit for Old Chinese than they are for any modern variety. Plus, they're not the only ones to do that; Tibetans, Mongolians, and Japanese also all read previous stages of their language in modern reflexes, and that's just off the top of my head. So for example, the first line of the Iroha, at the time of its composition, would have sounded something like
iɾopa nipopendo tiɾinɯrɯwo
(don't know much about historical pitch accent)
but a Japanese-speaker reading it today would read it as:
iɾowa nioedo t͡ɕiɾinɯrɯo
and that's for a stage of the language that was written mainly in syllabary-glyphs. (I give an example in Japanese because it's the one I know best.) Also:
>An alphabet is a fundamentally different way to communicate than a logographic script.
I'm not convinced this is the case. The thing that actually makes Chinese characters tick as a script, something that can be used to record any utterance in a spoken language, rather than just proto-writing, is the phonetic principle. The phonetic components are, essentially, a defective syllabary, with semantic components added for disambiguation. (And in pre-standardization texts you often see the semantic components used interchangeably or omitted.)

>>24724166
>The phonetic components are a much better fit for Old Chinese than they are for any modern variety.
I don’t disagree but you still have to admit that it’s a totally different beast from an alphabet since it would allow an Englishman to read 马 as apple while a Chinaman would read it as ma3. In that sense it’s still perfectly legible no matter what pronunciation you use.

>>24724549
I'd argue that kunyomi are heterograms, not fundamentally different in nature from English <lb> /paʊnd/ or Middle Persian <LHMA> /naːn/.

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Thought you guys might get a kick out of this one.

>>24723140
wouldn't say so much, as long as it becomes a hobby like working out which you do every day or close to that, over the years bit by bit reading thousands of pages isn't a huge feat so much of literacy but consistency, today I just read around 30 lines of Pindar, but day by day I'll have the Odes finished by end of the year

>>24726000
Checked but I didn't say "hail a great latinist and classicist." Just making the point that one isn't much of a classicist if they can neither read Latin or Greek extensively nor have read either extensively. Wasn't saying someone needs to have read the whole corpus, but they need to have done more than just DBG and Cicero alone or whatever.

If anything, my point is precisely that 1000 pages is not that much, and it demonstrates how low standards have fallen. In that way I agree 100%, I chose 1000 pages because if you even read only a page a day for less than 3 years you would reach it.

what are the downsides of using modern Greek pronunciation with ancient Greek?

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>>24726458
confusion of da highest ordah

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Having a lot of fun continuing to work on my Latin via input. Unfortunately only did a couple lines per day for a few days, but back on the horse today. I took chapters 1-13, wrote them into raw text, and imported them en masse into Lute, which ended up barely affecting my biblical vocabulary coverage at all, but jumped works like Historia Sacrae substantially, which makes sense since people are often pointed that way after finishing LLPSI.

I fantasize about reading all 3 of these bigass works in picrel someday in their entirety, but I think with stuff like Natural History I would just want to read the history/geography, idk.

Has anyone here ever read either the short or long form on the commentaries on the Aeneid? Did you find that it helped you grasp the Aeneid better?

If you have a basic understanding of grammar, why aren't you reading more anon?

How can you call yourself a latinist if the total volume of your engagement with the language is shorter than a Harry Potter book?

>>24726458
is that what educated greeks do, or only the rabble?

>>24726885
pretty sure they generally use the standard Greek at least when they learn ancient Greek in schools, I would't be surprised if it's in unis as well

jokes aside it can create some confusion insofar as with any language where the phonology changed without a corresponding orthographic reform, where your mind has to memorize spelling and written form almost separately and can't rely just on how it "sounds" in your head

it won't be as much of a problem in ancient Greek since you'll mostly be reading anyway, but still, having to think about whether the /i/ sound you have in your head corresponds to an η υ ει ι isn't optimal

>>24726458
Half the vowels sound "i"
>οἱ υἱεῖς τῇ οἰί εἰσιν εἰρηνικοί
i iís ti ií isin irinikí
>ἡμεῖς ἢ ὑμεῖς;
imís i imís?

>>24728031
Absolutely retarded.

twitter and youtube comments are pretty good for lazy study, you get a convenient instant translate button and can go back and forth

>>24728062
posted in the wrong thread... you're probably not gonna find Latin comments out there lol

>>24726458
iirc the pronunciation had already shifted to a modern style(iotaism) in some regions of Greece
it isn't as bad as some think and honestly I prefer it since there is much more material to help develop a feel for the language.
**It also stops me from obsessing over which pronunciation to use**

>>24728040
>Ibsilitily ritirdid

>>24728024
>>24728031
If you ever learned French, no phonology-orthography-inconsistency will ever be a challange for you.

>>24697657
What's the benefit of learning classical language?

>>24729499
You get to brag in this general about the number of pages you’ve read.

>>24729499
1.) Latin is the next step after phonics.
2.) Half of our English vocabulary is made up of Latin words and roots.
3.) Latin provides the root words for all of the modern sciences.
4.) Latin is the language of law, government, logic, and theology.
5.) Latin is the most efficient way to learn English grammar.
6.) Latin is the best preparation for learning any language.
7.) Latin effectively develops and trains the mind.
8.) Latin aids the mind in other ways …
9.) Latin is transformative.
10.) Latin is the language of Western Civilization.

https://www.memoriapress.com/articles/top-10-reasons-studying-latin/

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>>24729499
you activate

>>24729499
What's the benefit of doing anything?

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>>24729834
GDP

>>24729834
Having sex

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>>24728677
oui, c'est vrai, trop vrai

>>24729766
Now do Greek

>>24729766
>Latin aids the mind in other ways
fascinating

>>24729766
1. why?
2. you already know those words though
3. good point
4. only applies to theology and maybe logic
5. you already know how to speak English though, also English and Latin grammar are nothing alike
6. why?
7. why?
8. not a point
9. you clearly ran out of ideas at this point
10. not anymore, English now

>>24729499
Take it from the many philosophers, classicists, and poets who have answered this already
>https://udallasclassics.org/why-study-classics
Note also the test scores of classical languages students compared to other fields of study
>https://udallasclassics.org/why-study-classics/#Test_scores

Catullus is so fun to read

Whats the best light reading in latin?

>>24730821
Latin is not for light reading.

>>24730821
Medieval hagiography
Gesta Romanorum

>>24730821
Idk as far as things have gone for me so far the only stuff I can largely sight read are the Vulgate or medieval works, depending on the medieval work. It depends if you mean by tone or by reading level. There's an archive of medieval ghost stories here. https://www.anselm-classics.com/byland/story_1.html

>>24730837
Did Leo die and make you Pontifex? What makes any one language less usable for light reading than another?


Anyways, I'm finally about 85% through reading my first book in Latin. The Gospel of John. I have been very distracted with grad school from Latin and did little reading for the past week until yesterday. I have found my reading level much higher across the vulgate than before, by doing a close-reading of this text. I plan to continue with this when I finish John, debate is just whether to do Matthew for doing the synoptics in order or whether to do Mark since it is the shortest. Continually praying that if I read all 625k words of the vulgate I will actually have solid reading comprehension of Latin in at least the vulgate itself, and much of the medieval corpus. So far I'm 11k words into John, but I've knocked a chapter or two off of random other books in scripture (or any random text I download). Sometimes when I'm bored I just click around and read like 1 verse per page on random pages.

Btw I think for next thread I'll make another rolling table beyond the two I made already.

I think it would be funny when I get far enough with this to actually read Harrius Potter, which feels like a huge meme. But I would like to make it somewhat productive by reading it in Lute ideally, does anyone know of a raw text out there? What about that Hobbit translation someone made?

>>24730758
Still my favorite after all these years. He's unfortunately overlooked by many despite being so vivid and enjoyable

>>24730821
Elegies and epigrams. Propertius, Tibullus, Martial, Catullus. Short and relatively simple, self-contained thoughts, easy to pick up and put down.
For prose Nepos

>>24728031
>be
>cede
>ski
>machine
>bologna
>algae
>Taoiseach
>quay
>beach
>bee
>e'en
>deceit
>people
>key
>field
>hygiene
>amoeba

>>24728065
You might on videos in Latin.

>>24728161
It didn't shift all at once, but it is true that many of the sound shifts started quite early in some places, and that the pronunciation that was general by the end of antiquity was in many ways closer to the modern than the classical Athenian.

>>24730262
Mightn't that just be that the sort of students who take classics tend to be intelligent and motivated, rather than that classics causes higher test scores?

>>24730821
Adding on to this: What is the best light reading in Classical Chinese?

>>24731258
Three Kingdoms, unironically

>>24730821
Harrius Potter et Philosophi Lapis

>>24731339
Do you mean the 三國志 or the 三國演義? My understanding was that the latter was written in a sort of 半文半白 style.

>>24731351
Potterius*

>>24731375
演義 is charming. Unlike Qing 半文半白, it reads generally smoothly, with mostly post-classical syntax.

>>24731413
Still, that's not really CC.

>>24731248
shhh you're interfering with his superiority complex

>>24730262
>people who practice french are smarter than people who practice hebrew, both btfo by latin
lol

Ethiopianon here. I've been on a hiatus from /clg/ are there any books that you would like to see uploaded to the ANE MEGA?

>>24731258
论语 because it's made up of short and self contained axioms. If you don't understand a sentence you can just skip it and it doesn't really affect overall comprehension.

>>24725990
Your pic got a good chuckle out of me before I had even read your post. Thanks, anon.

>>24731913
>殘體字

>>24731958
字之意于其形重也

>>24732139
>>24732139