Is the Western Canon basically just a list of books old elites decided were important, not some objective measure of greatness?
Yeah, but they are pretty great though. Maybe just a coincidence.
There is no objective measure of greatness. It's opinions all the way down.
>>24744786Take any of the Western Canon and compare it to Fifty Shades of Grey or any female-written novel. Tell me measure is subjective. Honestly.
>>24744810You're an obnoxious snob
>>24744813No argument whatsoever.
People cling to the canon because they create a false dichotomy where the only alternative is romantasy. The truth is that I've read novels from no name authors that I enjoyed more than any ancient greek text. The canon is a good place to start but it isn't an objective measure of the greatest works of all time. And yes a lot of the canon was pushed because it reaffirmed the ideals of the ruling class 400 years ago, and to a modern reader the quality of writing may shine through, but unless you're a mindless tradition fag you probably can't relate to any of it.
>>24744810>he hasn't read middlemarch
>>24744786Sounds like you already made up your mind.
>>24744786Other than Shakespeare, all the other authors are give or take, as per Bloom. They are examples of the Western canon, but not meant to be the best ever. He changed his mind about the selection later on, particularly on Whitman's followers.
>>24744810>Take any western canon as a measure and compare it to a book derived from the canonfuck off sophist
The world has simply changed so much in the last 100 years and is continuing to change so quickly that we are being pulled further and further away from the world that birthed the canon. It becomes increasingly difficult to see the value of the canon to modern readers, outside of as history. The canon's ideals led us to the place we are today. There is no going back. Only forwards. Read obscure contemporary lit and write your own.
>>24744872>middlemarch>GEORGE Eliot>female
>>24745114All names ending in -e are female, dummy. Helene, Jane, Grace, Alice, Charlotte, etc.
>>24745106mass literacy has only proved that Literature will always be for the few
>>24744786They are books that have been esteemed for hundreds of years by people qualified to hold such things in esteem. The idea of "elites" in this context is retarded because democratization is a relatively new phenomenon and the fact more people watched Honey BooBoo than have read Hamlet doesn't mean people will be studying Honey BooBoo in the immediate future let alone centuries from now. Qualified opinion can still be wrong but it's a fairly obvious argument to make that democratization bastardizes culture. I'd even argue that democratization has gone so far as to bastardize our current crop of elites relative to those in the past as well.
>>24745122>He doesn't even know the first declension
>>24744786“objective” isnt a good word. but “comparative” is.all the “canon” books have had some significant impact on wider culture. and if you were going to make a short list of recommended reading to get an overview of the west in terms of cultural development, it would look very similar to that canon.“canon” just gives a word to this inescapable historiographic phenomenon.some obscure cookbook from 1458 no doubt has some value, but would it regularly be recommended more than any other obscure work?
>>24745140Mass media by subversive Jews bastardizes culture
>>24745145"Civilization" bastardizes culture.There's nothing civil about these projects of course. They're about domesticating humans into workhorses. Culture is stifled and smothered by these things.
>>24745172nigga before civilization people made 2 things: porn of women and landscapes of animals.they were more slavishly singular than the egyptions.
The western canon isn't simply just a list of le epic "dead wite man" books. This isn't just some stale "culture" to be discussed academically. These books constitute developments in thought, action being. They literally constitute you and the language you speak, and the authours who wrote these books authoured your existence. Behold:>>24744807 this guy? he's parroting perspectivism. >>24744807 this guy, and >>24744786 OP, are repeating Kant's subjective/objective distinction>>24745106 this guy is waxing on about the eternal march of progress>>24745140 This guy speaks of democracy and the tyranny of the masses>>24745144 this guy repeats the post-hegelian concepts of "cultural development">>24744823 this guy is repeating socialist/marxist points from the 19th century--Plenty of people try to escape these concepts. Rural retards, non-western immigrants, women, blacks etc. Yet for all their thrashing about, they only ever fail to speak of a world they never bothered to understand
>>24745093The Western Canon is the Western Canon for a reason anon... And Fifty Shades of Grey will NEVER be part of it.
>>24744786All of the canon talk is by book nerds. Calling them elites gives them a silly amount of unearned dignity. Most of the books in there are free now. Other than the luxury of time to read and maybe a college education there is nothing elite about books.The canon is just an agreement by book nerds to a set of books judged to be worth reading or historically important. Feel free to agree or disagree as long as you're not a moron with a rotten brain afflicted with identity politics.
>>24745248>Other than the luxury of time to read and maybe a college educationThat's exactly what makes it "elite". Most people can't afford to indulge in hundreds of pages of dead white man drivel
>>24745208"perspectivism"... So you are implying that there is an objective way to determine high quality literature? Such an invention would be groundbreaking - what objective instruments and measurements do you use? Just to recap- an objective quality of a book would be how many 10 letter words it contains. Measurable, consistent, not dependent on who is interpreting it. You might have mistaken "subjective" for "anyone's game and it doesn't matter and nothing about it is respectable or serious".
>>24745248>>24745272its elite due to predisposition. you honestly think some truck driver prole doesnt have the time for war and peace? of course they do, they’d just prefer to spend that time watching football.
>>24745286t. I'm uni educated but I'd rather watch streams desu a lot more fun
>>24745208>They literally constitute you and the language you speakSome do, some don't.
>>24745114>he hasn't read brideshead revisited
>>24745282>>24745208 the subjective/objective model is cringe outside of science and pure logic and doesnt fit in the subject of art which does function on rational design, but not on pre defined templates.Thats why I said “comparative” instead. it will be hard to argue that plato is unimportant to western developments as a whole regardless of how you subjectively feel about him, he categorically did, but saying “he is the best philosopher” is equally as implausible to objectively prove either.
>>24745122True. Ashley is a man's name whereas Ashlee is female.
>>24744786It's a list of influential books. They are equally important and great because they influenced later literature.
>>24744807>everything is le subjectiveThe retarded philosophy of midwits who don't even practice what they preach.
>>24744786There's a reason the old elites decided they were important.>>24744807I find the "objective vs subjective" debate tiresome. Perception is subjective, reality is objective. If my opinion is that the sky is green, I am objectively wrong. The words on the page don't change, the rhythm, the meter, the technique, themes, all of it can exist in a vacuum without a reader. However, because we experience things subjectively, we cannot possibly ever experience anything as it is.Many people are convinced that their perception of reality is reality, and many more are convinced that reality doesn't exist and thus they are free to believe whatever they want to believe.The true path is to train one's perception, to differentiate between signal and noise, between fact and interpretation, others and the self. To do this does not require one to set aside all emotion and interpretation; but rather, to step away from the self, to go and follow the writer as a student, as Dante followed Vergil, eager to understand, to know what he felt, to find truth and beauty in his work, and to see clearly why you respond the way you do.
>>24745208I like your post. Made me chuckle. Here's your (you)
