God is not real.

duality is not real. the only Reality is God

>>24747966
What problem?

free will

>Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
According to the Christian conception, God is able and actively stopping evil,
>3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

>8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
You have to understand that since the flesh is evil and we are sown in the flesh, we inadvertently commit evil and become impure. If He simply chose to do it now then some will not be saved.
>Is he able, but not willing?
John 3:16; you have to acknowledge that you are impure (evil), and ask for forgiveness and only then will you become blameless through grace. It is a relationship with the Lord which destroys evil. You have to be seeking the God (the Good).
>Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Since only God is good because He is the truth and the life and the way then logically anything else is not good. That is, not capable of being only good though they might mostly be doing good and thus being good. It is not possible to create other beings that are not God and expect only good. The solution God offers is 'marriage'. We become one with God though distinct yet unified.
>Is he neither able nor willing?
False, according to the Christian conception.

>why do we suffer
>because I made reality intentionally shit so you can... le grow
>okay but why not just make us golden and perfect from the start
>idk lol

>>24747968
Scientific assumptions are based on paradigms which aren't true in the realist sense but rather in the nominal sense. You could say could say "God isn't real" but it depends on what period in history you are making such assumptions about and which religion is the current hegemon. Right now its Christianity but in a thousand years people could be worshipping something that defies linguistic categorization and might be man-made. Hubris is a poor predictor of outcomes.

Anyways, for me it's William Lane Craig and Luis De Molina.

>>24748117
>God is able and actively stopping evil
why some portion and not all of it?

>>24747966
That God's "good" is not the same as ours and his motives are beyond our understanding. Unfortunately, many theists will make this argument but not commit as they keep on claiming to understand God's motives and that God is good because he's merciful and loving etc.

>>24748138
What specifically did you have in mind? The evil of the soul takes precedence over any other devastation. "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." And also, how much does it matter if he does all of it later and not now?

>>24748148
I'm sure you can think of a few evils that get away without getting punished on this world without me spelling them to you.

>>24748161
Isn't that already assuming that God isn't real? You are supposed to assume God is real and arrive at an 'reductio ad absurdum'. Specifically, you are supposed to assume the Christian conception of God is real. Therefore, Hell is real.
Unless I did not understand what you mean by "evils that get away without getting punished on this world", I believe this is a sufficient response. Otherwise I would ask you to specify what you mean since I am unable to divine your mind like a clairvoyant.

>>24747966
If you use logic to judge the power and morality of God, what you worship is logic, not God. You think Logic is the truth, not God. You've actually assumed what you were trying to prove.

File: 1754349502923853.jpg (19 KB, 474x474)

19 KB JPG

>>24747966
You can't know what light is if you don't know what dark is.
>but the holocaust
We think we know true evil. True evil is so evil that it makes the holocaust look like a stubbed toe by comparison. We are being protected from something unimaginable.

>>24747966
God is not a guy who wakes up in the morning and decides to do or not do things

File: images (64).jpg (39 KB, 365x547)

39 KB JPG

>>24747966
>God is evil.

>>24748241
what is he?

>>24747966
God willing suffers all the consequences of evil to permit full free will for His creations.

>>24748256
Ahem, see >>24748246

Much more parsimonious to say that God simply wills evil for most of his creatures and spares a few as a display of his unfathomable power, as decided by his wholly inscrutable will. No free will can exist.

>>24747966
God is trascendent.
Thats why muslims dont have this problem.

>>24747966
>what's your strongest rebuttal against the problem of evil?
I'm still waiting for atheists to show me that evil exists.

>>24748256
There is no such thing as free-will, at least in the Biblical sense. There is only God's will and ignorance (which leads to sin/evil).

We came here specifically because we wanted to experience a reality without God. Since God isn't looking out for us here, there is evil.

>>24747966
God is beyond morals.

>>24747966
The strongest rebuttal to the logical problem of evil is generally considered to be Alvin Plantinga's Free Will Defense.
* The Problem: The existence of evil seems logically contradictory to a God who is all-powerful and all-good.
* The Rebuttal (Free Will Defense): It is logically possible that God could not create beings with genuine free will without the risk that those beings would choose evil. Since a world with free creatures is more valuable than a world of unfree automatons, God has a morally sufficient reason for permitting the possibility of evil.
* Key Insight: God's omnipotence is limited by logic; he can't force a free choice to be only good. Therefore, the three qualities (omnipotence, omnibenevolence, and the existence of evil) are not actually contradictory.

>>24748139
>his motives are beyond our understanding.
I've always hated this. It's pure mysticism, but the people who preach it always pretend like it's worth deep introspection. The worst are the ones who'd just as easily damn some guru on a mountain for saying anything similar.
By admitting that nobody can actually know, it only cheapens Christianity, allowing it to be put on the same level as any other 2deep4u belief.

>>24748256
that's an interesting idea but we don't have fully free will do we. our genetics and the family we were born to are out of our control and they decide a good deal about our personality.

File: nic.png (467 KB, 788x770)

467 KB PNG

>>24748118
why bother protect us from suffering? suffering is key to transcendence and this way works well enough. why should god care about making things a little more comfortable and give you a back rub when you'll all die anyway. I mean, the problem takes care of itself.

A good God is not a coddling God. He values your goodness over your pleasure. Do not take for granted your opportunity, you did not choose to live, but you also did not choose to die.

the privation of goodness (and being, and truth, and beauty) is necessary for the existence of multiplicity and change. that's why time has a forward arrow, that's why entropy is "evil".

There are none, they're all flimsy copes as you can see ITT

Scarcity and privation is part of a limited, finite, world. This explains suffering. Evil is explained by free will in world subject to suffering

>>24748132
>Scientific assumptions are based on paradigms which aren't true in the realist sense but rather in the nominal sense
This applies to every domain of knowledge that isn't formal logic or mathematics you absolute dimwit.

>>24748415
yeah. I feel like if there was a good explanation we would know about it by now. I just naively keep looking for answers.

>>24747966
Evil doesn't exist

We are fallible; God is not. Evil does not and cannot exist and any perceived evil in the world is a failure of our judgment or perception.

>>24747966
From the perspective of your muscles, exercise is just pointless suffering. To you it's push ups. The muscles can't understand that a higher will is deliberately destroying them to build them up stronger than before. They don't understand that an apathetic will would let them waste away in comfort, leading to their premature death, while a benevolent will deliberately strengthens them with trials they can handle, to bring them to their ultimate potential, a state that benefits both the muscles and the will.

The entire "problem" of evil falls apart the same way every other argument about higher powers falls apart.
>i don't understand why x happens
Higher powers are beyond your understanding, and trying to piece together the intention of a power higher than yourself is just as futile as a bicep trying to understand why it's owner keeps doing push ups.

>>24748424
Did you assess this post using paradigms too? How can I be sure your post isn't holding up some power/knowledge discourse?

>>24749003
Yes! Rape babies and eat fecal matter! You tell 'em!

>>24747966
Evil is not real

>>24749077
>Eating fecal matter is evil

Do you make this thread every time you get refuted in another thread on religion? It's the fourth one this month, and you've been embarrassed each time

>>24749112
And yet I pay taxes.

>>24749077
If it happens, it is necessarily good. Otherwise it couldn't have happened, unless you deny the goodness of God.

>>24747966
What is an ant in the eye of a man?

>>24749160
You benefit from a society that wouldn't exist without taxes so you must pay your fair share.

>>24749128
SAAR!!

File: 1738947700930745.jpg (662 KB, 706x1024)

662 KB JPG

>>24747966
God exists. That's a given. He is therefore amoral or evil. He cannot be all good. The world as it is presented to us is not reflective of a loving creator. They are incongruous. Even if God is all good, I refuse to accept the world and lives he has given us. It's just not right.

>>24749189
And what use is property tax?

>>24748220
>>24748203
>>24748176
>>24748132
>>24748117
>>24748069
least retarded mystics

>>24748069
>>24748117
>>24748132
>>24748220
>>24748256
>>24748303
>>24748334
>>24748391
>>24748398
>Beginning a series of torture-rapes on minors aged 6 to 16 in the autumn of 1980, Garavito was estimated to have raped and tortured a minimum of 200 minors, before committing the rape, torture, mutilation, and murder of an additional 189 minors in Colombia from 4 October 1992 to 21 April 1999,[7] and a further four murders in Ecuador during the summer of 1998.
>The children were often molested and tortured simultaneously for prolonged periods. Victims were stabbed with a screwdriver in the buttocks, hands, and feet to having their buttocks flayed with broken blades that Garavito had placed between his fingers.[28] While alive, Garavito severed their genitals and placed them in the child's mouth. They were extensively beaten, burned, trampled and often showed deep cuts in the back, stomach and throat. In some cases, they were sexually abused as their intestines poured out of their stomach,[9] impaled through the anus and out of the mouth,[24] and stabbed over one hundred times.[13]
Defend this you cowards

>>24749239
Yea, the guy was evil and loved his sins. What exactly is the problem? Those kids are in heaven. God probably allowed it to happen to those who would inherit eternal life in order to save those who were dead in their sins to not go through that. I don't know how you can read that and not come out hating evil instead of God. This just reads like a non-sequitur or red-herring. If I am mistaken then I would like you to explicitly make your argument and not implicitly as you have been doing.

>>24749316
I hope you get raped by a pack of Hebrews

Fichte would say the possibility of evil is necessary for freedom. This means it's fundamental, you can't step outside of it because you can't actually abstract from your freedom. So the question "But WHY????" makes about as much sense as asking why there's something rather than nothing - it's not a question we could possibly answer because it demands that we abstract from something from which we cannot abstract.

>>24749332
Are you actually capable of reasoning, or have you so entrenched yourself in your own simulation of reality that you can't actually see what is right in front of you? You might actually be spiritually blind, or in secular terms, you are so full of hate and disingenuousness that anything which you want to be true has to be true because it might be true given your distorted and uncritical reading of reality.

File: images (66).jpg (64 KB, 398x770)

64 KB JPG

>>24749239
An atheist cannot explain why this is evil. At most they can mumble about "muh social contract," or "muh nature red in tooth and claw." But we know that the victims have been gathered to the bosom of infinite plentitude while the offender must stand before the judgement seat of Christ. Even now the unquenchable flames extract justice.

>>24749352
Fuck up you dumb cunt

File: quote-food-is-not-evil-bu(...).jpg (77 KB, 850x400)

77 KB JPG

>>24749239
>Evil is evil
>Therefore you should hate the Good!

>>24749380
I used to think this icon had accidentally represented Jesus as having a stroke, but apparently it's intentional and one side is the face of Christ the Godman and conciliator and the other is Christ the terrible judge of sins, with both facing us during our earthly pilgrimage.

IIRC, it is located at Saint Catherine's, the monastery out in the middle of the desert at the foot of Mt. Horeb, at the site of the Burning Bush, which has somehow been continually occupied for 1,600 years despite all the various wars, Islamic rule, etc.

But this makes more sense when you see it because the land is completely inhospitable and no one else probably wants it.

>>24749216
>noooo I want to exist in perpetual stillness so I'll never sufferino

>>24749316
>>24749352
>>24749380
I hope you people appreciate that you are no different from the Bolsheviks who justified murder and torture as it was for the good of the revolution and the ushering in of the utopia.

Have the integrity to admit that

Evil is not a necessary requirement for free will to exist (there exist an infinite amount of possible worlds where free agents exist but evil does not) and thus the "free will" argument does not hold.
If you still say "evil exists because of free will" you are an idiot.

>>24749422
Agreed. Evil exists because of fear of death and impermanence. God has created a world where we are subjected to death and decay and therefore is ultimately to blame

>>24747966
Nobody can argue against meaningless sophistry and word games.
The statement just signals that you won't even try to engage with any of the concepts involved, good, evil or God.
A poorly drawn circle is far from perfection, it's a bad circle.
>but why doesn't God just make all circles perfect?
Why would He, retard? We have no idea what's even going on but you subhuman demons think you're in a position to judge God for not doing "better" when He gave you everything including your ability to have these braindead narcissistic ideas about what is "good".

>>24749216
>>24749239
Cope

>>24749429
>The purpose of life is to brown nose God

>>24749432
Exactly as predicts. Not a hint of interest in actually exploring ideas, just inherently dishonest demons playing games that undermine all communication, understanding and thought.

>>24749435
Your ego is astounding

>>24749437
Again you're demonstrating the fucking point. Can't even pretend to fucking think for even a fraction of a second. There is no discussion to be had with retards like you. You can't even pretend you're capable.

>>24749443
You make me laugh man. Do you honestly believe that Christ would be pleased with you taking on you attitude of superiority, self-righteousness and dogmatic self assurance and call anyone who deviates from your brand a 'demon'? You are a pharisee who stands opposed to Christ and you don't even realise it.

Sad little man

>>24748027
/thread

>>24747966
if God used his omnipotency to delete evil, then there would be no dichotomy of good and evil, and therefore there would be no good
how can there be happiness without suffering, how can there be peace when no wars can ever happen? the concept itself loses meaning
evil is a necessary thing in your life
it's on YOU to fight it. because if you don't fight evil for there is no evil to fight, then you don't have the good either

If you try to do formal logic but don't formally define your terms you're not doing anything except making your irrelevant conditioned assumptions seem more reasonable.
>if God is the "father" then why doesn't he ever play baseball with me?
How can anyone begin to engage with statements like this?

>>24749447
You're not a retard because you disagree, you're a retard because you're too braindead to be even capable of disagreeing. All you have to offer is incoherent retard noises.

>>24749479
"Depart from me, ye workers of iniquity, I never knew you"

You have a misguided sense of good and evil. What you think is evil could very well be not.

>>24749420
The analogy doesn't even apply. Nobody is justifying murder. God didn't torture those kids, some guy named Garavito did. What does God command us to do?
>But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

>32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
You are attempting to strawman by using a false equivalence.
>justified murder and torture as it was for the good of the revolution and the ushering in of the utopia.
How does telling people to do good in order to be good so that we can have heaven on earth in anyway similar to this false analogy? Are you actually insane?

File: 1_Kgh9b9NctJUV-RzYldJmIg.jpg (286 KB, 1200x820)

286 KB JPG

>>24747966
A kiss

>>24749496
You are saying that the rape, torture and murder of children is an acceptable price for muh free will and that it's fine cause it'll all be fine when the New Jerusalem arrives. Flex your thinking a bit man. Unless you are autistic and can only take statements at face value in which case you have my sympathies.
>God didn't torture those kids
No he just sat in the corner and watched. At any moment he could have stepped in but he didn't. Would you have done the same? If not then why do you afford God excuses you would never afford for yourself or anyone else

Evil is the baseline and the Good are miracles ie. happen as often as a lottery win, a spontaneous immanent event

Not a Christian, or a theist, but I’ve conceived of God as something that is extremely powerful and ancient, but limited in its potential actions, like by the very laws of physics and logic.
There are some things God simply can’t do, such as save you from your own choices, or more obviously make a square circle.
People will argue “Yes but that’s only from the realm of human comprehension.”
Then do from within the realm of human comprehension.
You can’t, so God is inherently restricted by the limitations of logic.
This seems to make God vulnerable, and potentially tortured by their inability to have everyone go to Heaven, but this would be considered heresy, so the scope of this argument would have to be presented from outside the boundaries of Christian theology.

>>24749513
>You are saying that the rape, torture and murder of children is an acceptable price for muh free will and that it's fine cause it'll all be fine when the New Jerusalem arrives.
I don't believe in free-will. Only in God's will and ignorance. Ignorance isn't acceptable which is why I am trying to convince people here about God (what you may call the Good). Evil isn't fine... that's sorta the whole point in proselytizing about doing good; thus being good.
Ignorance is a necessary consequence, but the ignorance you speak about (rape, torture, and murder of children) isn't. It arises out of much ignorance of God and hatred of God. You probably want to kill me and every other Christian, thinking that that will somehow fix everything wrong with the world. You don't even understand what I am saying. Consider carefully what I am about quote,
>Isn’t there another option? said I. Couldn’t we persuade you that you should let us leave?
>And would you be able to persuade us, said he, if we were not listening to you?
>Not at all, replied Glaucon.
>Then you should presume that we won’t listen.

>27“When you tell them all this, they will not listen to you; when you call to them, they will not answer. 28Therefore say to them, ‘This is the nation that has not obeyed the Lord its God or responded to correction. Truth has perished; it has vanished from their lips.

>Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

>No he just sat in the corner and watched. At any moment he could have stepped in but he didn't. Would you have done the same? If not then why do you afford God excuses you would never afford for yourself or anyone else
Again, God saved their soul; that is, he saved their true being. Also, God himself was also tortured and suffered shame, and he didn't save himself though he could have. And since God is pure being and experience (because he is the only being that can properly be said to be alive), he suffered that torture in the truest sense. God can also will it that the flesh suffer the pain of the flesh but that the soul does not. So while it may seem that the child is without grace, in reality he is full of grace. This is the same God that is able to do this,
>He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”
Except God lets the fire harm the flesh and takes the soul of the child away from any pain.

>>24749550
>You probably want to kill me and every other Christian, thinking that that will somehow fix everything wrong with the world.
No I don't and please try not to indulge in your persecutory delusions so much
>God can also will it that the flesh suffer the pain of the flesh but that the soul does not
So did Jesus suffer on the cross or didn't he? Also, as someone who has suffered with severe pain and torment many times in my life I can tell you first hand that there is no comfort and there is no one there with you. You are on your own. Experiencing this unceasingly was the reason I left Christianity but I have not left Christ.

>>24749560
>No I don't and please try not to indulge in your persecutory delusions so much
I am glad to hear that. I don't have any persecutory delusions however. I just made a (mistaken) inference from what I read in your replies.
>So did Jesus suffer on the cross or didn't he?
He did, what you quoted from me was in reference to the children. Jesus suffered for us so that we don't have to.
>Also, as someone who has suffered with severe pain and torment many times in my life I can tell you first hand that there is no comfort and there is no one there with you
I am sorry to hear, and while it may seem inappropriate I must address this though I know how apathetic this may sound. The complete privation of God is Hell; Your pain would be infinitely worse without God, and whatever respite you feel originates from God. Again, since you are inadvertently making an argument, I had to rebuttal.

>>24749560
>persecutory delusions
Sounds like someone completely ignorant of history. I'd love every atheist to spend one day in Saudi Arabia just to get a taste of that.

File: images (54).jpg (21 KB, 199x253)

21 KB JPG

>>24749420
>Satan and his followers do evil
>Therefore Christians are evil

Your analogy doesn't make any sense. No one is justifying evil here. Evil is evil. Christ forgives and heals *people* but shows nothing but implacable hatred for sin and evil.

>>24749427
>Alexa, how did sin and death enter the world again?

>>24749686
>"Oh, man chose Satan over God, hmmm, look at that..."

>>24747966
Pagan gods are not omnipotent.

>>24749239
I'm not even religious and obviously find this abhorrent, but it should be obvious that this doesn't subvert any arguments. Liberal hedonism has no imagination and so it believes the only metric for ideal goodly living is freedom from worldly suffering. By that argument, comforting numbness is ideal, infinite heroin with no drawbacks would be ideal, death would be ideal.

>>24747966
Donesn't Plato solve this with the One, the forms and demiurge.
The material world is simply imperfect but the best it could be.