This guy sucks. James Joyce, too. Just some spastic weirdos that got so famous because they were ~Le s0 r4NduMb~ for their time. If you enjoy these books you're a fucking pseud.
>>24771580Hi, Tom
>>24771580What phenotype is this?
>>24771580They get so caught up in their allusions and references and word games and streams of consciousness bullshit that they forget that they’re supposed to be telling an interesting or entertaining story. They’re Reddit.
>>24771584
>>24771580True
>>24771584they should've been poets if they wanted to do all that
>>24771580>>24771584trvke
>>24771580Pynchon's stories are fun, what did you not like about his works?
>>24771580>~Le s0 r4NduMb~If that's what you think it's about then you are a knee on the neck level IQ.
>>24771580Yeah, I agree. Joyce is just a bunch of meaningless crap. Maybe he would have been better if he actually suffered in life
I guess I should be glad that I am able to enjoy Joyce. It's clear he's not for everyone. I don't particularly care for game of thrones, but people seem to enjoy it. If I were able to choose between which of the two I enjoy, nothing would change.
>>24771584Everything I don't like is reddit
>>24771681brigadier pudding made him feel funny in his pnats
Nah, Joyce is the King. Pynchon is peak reddit, but I still love him for it.
>>24771584You're too retarded and spastic. Especially for Joyce.Anyone who knows how to read and actually read Ulysses can say that1) On the micro level, allusions and references aren't necessary for total enjoyment. They add verisimilitude to the characters since they reflect the thought processes of Stephen, Molly, Bloom.On the macro level, the book is named Ulysses for a reason. It's a tale that everyone who has the barest interest in literature read before the age of 10. To keep in mind the Odyssey while Ulysses is a relatively simple cognitive task. If you can't do that, you're either some kind of brown, a Slav, or, heavens forbid, Estonian.2) That stream of consciousness is a meme spouted by 4chan autistst and bronies who think Ulysses is pretentious because they're, despite their own judgment of their own intellect, retarded and of average IQ, if not less. Because for them the words means unconscious improvised random garbage put on paper - writers writes what comes into their head - instead of a stylistic and painfully constructed style of narrative.I read Ulysses in English at 18. It was obvious from the first pages that the text wasn't written on the fly, that it's structural rhythm and lyrical flow were crafted carefully. The same with Stephen's and Bloom's and Molly's thoughts. A painstaking process of editing went into the inner dialogue.3) That Ulysses has an actual story. With conflict, foreshadowing, rise of tension, climactic action, falling action. That Ulysses mirrors the Odyssey, but overlays the mythical adventures onto early 20th century Dublin. Sure, there is no BING BING WAHOOO CRASH BANG BANG Stephen King tier plot development, but that doesn't mean there isn't a plot with all its elements. You're just too dopamine fried and, once again, too retarded to notice the obvious. Ulysses is like the ultimate IQ test. The people who think it's trash usually never read and are retards with zero cognitive abilities, abstract thinking, feeling for patterns, and ear for rhythm. The same can be said about Pynchon. GR also follows the standard development of rising tension, climax, and falling action typical of all normal plots, but the structure is constantly broken by random vignettes that still expand, from different angles, on the main narrative and theme. I can say the same about the other books I read of his - V; Mason and Dixon. There's plot. There's a coherence. There's development. A disjointed and non linear narrative with humorous asides and that leaves some things unsaid, for the reader to figure out, to ponder, do not make it lol randumd like type 1 autists like to say. It's just means you're too retarded for anything that doesn't go from A to Z without going from through B, C,D, E, and explaining everything.I'm no psychic, but I think you never read anything higher than MLP porn and think that because you don't have enough cognitive ability to understand something it means that thing is dumb.
>>24772011>>24771584get fucking effort posted dumb little nigga
>Lake and Deuce were married over on the other side of the mountains in a prairie church whose steeple was visible for miles, at first nearly the color of the gray sky in which it figured as little more than a geometric episode, till at closer range the straight lines began to break up, soon slipping every which way, like lines of a face seen too close, haggard from the assaults of more winters than anybody still living in the area remembered the full count of, weathered beyond sorrowful, smelling like generations of mummified rodents, built of Engelmann spruce and receptive to sound as the inside of a parlor piano. Though scarcely any music ever came this way, the stray mouth-harpist or whistling drifter who did pass through the crooked doors found himself elevated into more grace than the acoustics of his way would have granted him so far.
>>24772011>It's good because it's like an IQ testThis has what to do with art?
>>24772338>it's bad because I'm dumb >:(
Mason & Dixon is the greatest novel of the 20th century, sorry that you are mentally or nationally handicapped and can’t appreciate it
>>24772342>it's good because it intellegunt >:(
>>24772354Yeah that's part of it
>>24771580What are some books I'm allowed to enjoy?
>>24772344>poor man's john barth, who is already poor
>>24772410Video game manuals and sissy hypno captions.
>>24771580stick to ya lil nigga
>>24772474I don't have a lil nigga
>>24772466I now remember being young and doing google image searches for "femdom captions" lol
>>24772410
>>24772011So how does one work towards understanding these authors? I read Dubliners a few months ago and though it was enjoyable I had a hard time picking up the things you describe
>>24771580>>>/co/
>>24772011midwits btfo'd
>>24772011But you gotta admit Sirens and Aeolus is pure pseudery. It may not have been as clear in Joyce's day but imitating a medium within another medium just ends up a contrived shadow of the original medium itself. A complete waste of time essentially.
>>24775499It's telling that it's only defended on the basis that it makes its defender feel smart THOUGH
>>24772011Counterpoint: the main character is a cuck. Homer's version is just better.
I think the problem with Pynchon is that literature as a whole is considered this huge intellectual pursuit when in reality most books are equivalent to grindhouse movies, and Pynchon is called one of the best when in reality he's the book equivalent of Tarantino.
>>24775552you're imitating literature by writing your post. please stop wasting everyone's time
>>24771580There are no ugly literary geniuses change my mind
>>24775552>SirensIs my favourite chapter. It was a pure joy to read.>>24776319>literature as a whole is considered this huge intellectual pursuitAs a STEMfag, I really don't get this mindset. That's what non-fiction is for, whip out a textbook in your field of expertise or perhaps a philosophy book if you're feeling frisky. Fiction is supposed to be fun, and I enjoy the old Pynchon just as much as I do Tarantino or Silksong.
>>24776347why is this true
fact of the matter is, if i wrote gravity's rainbow and published it, /lit/ would call it shit and post mocking excerpts. but because pynchon is "/lit/ culture" then it's suddenly something profound. it's all just LARP. you pretend to like it because you were instructed to do so/end trvke
>>24771584This, so much this. These books violate every principle of good writing. They don't have any cool story hooks to get you invested right off the bat, not even a cool one-liner in the first page, they don't focus on developing relatable characters and they always forget the cardinal rule of show, don't tell. In short, they violate every principle of good writing that all-time greats like Stephen King always follow.
>>24777938You‘re right but you can‘t declare a trvke on yourself
>>24778032One of my issues with them is that they very self-consciously violate traditional principles of good writing not because it was necessary for genuine expression but because modernists and critics decided that there was inherently value in subverting expectations for its own sake. Joyce talking about shitting and whacking off and what not is elevated to some bold artistic maneuver just because it's transgressive which is about as empty as the stock content it seeks to challenge. They're both uninspired.
>>24778057So true! I mean, ugh, Keep it Simple, Stupid! XD
>>24771681I only ever read V. by him and I ended up getting fatigued by it. It was jumping around between styles and characters a bit too much for my taste, I enjoyed the hectic pace but for me personally it needed to slow down a bit and develop more of a connecting thread from chapter to chapter. Plus I particularly disliked the Stencil chapters.
Complaining about those two authors will never make you cool. You're just admitting to being a purposeless contrarian and that your attention span has suffered because of your overuse of the internet. It's like complaining that you can't please a woman and how it's somehow her fault.The type of mythical highbrow literature/theater snobs whom you're trying to impress aren't on the internet, they're on life support because they're old. They won't read this.>>24778057>>24778032>>24771584You are not Russian royalty from before the bolsheviks. This type of misunderstood, narrow attitude towards art that you only get by being brought up and homeschooled by elites does not become you, because you're a pleb. Your views are also anachronistic. You are not Nabokov.Just for the sake of refuting your main point before you complain that I'm only attacking your character, there are no real principles and rules for good writing, there's just imitation and creative writing classes which helped killed literature.
who is gonna be the first to share a link to 'shadow ticket'?
>>24778057What is "necessary" for genuine expression and how would one even judge such a thing? The medium is the message. I really want everyone here to stop mentioning "subverting expectations" as a catchall term for anything unconventional, it reeks of youtube.
>>24778328Only cultural elitists defend this type of art. The average person handed a copy of Ulysses or even told a synopsis would be confused at best. Seems you're trying to invert reality without defending the supposed merits of the art you defend
>>24778475NTA but the exact reason any author gets discussed on here is because they're not average. I understand where you're coming from and I wish more people became interested in (or had time for) this kind of work, but mass appeal is not a mark of quality.
>>24777926I don't know dude I don't make the rules but it is
Pynchon is dated even worse than fucking David "I wrote a book about hip hop back in the 90s because my lily white middle class ass thought it was cool and subversive" Foster Wallace. Like, holy fuck, how is this lobotomized hippie mummy still running the same circles half a century after they became passé?
>>24778592>lily white middle class ass
>>24771580FILTERED
I wish I could appreciate Ulysses
>>24778592Because he's much better than DFW fit starters. lmao
>>24771580What authors do you like then?
>>24776346Analysis of literary fiction is not literary fiction you fuck head
>>24776733>Is my favourite chapter. It was a pure joy to read The equivalent of prefering to read sheet music to listening to music. Again pure pseudery.
>>24778475>Only cultural elitists defend this type of game. The average person handed a copy of Dark Souls would ragequit instantly. Seems you're trying to invert reality without defending the supposed merits of the game you defend
>>24778762Hank Green
>>24778762Eric Carle
>>24772011Good post, but:>On the macro level, the book is named Ulysses for a reason. It's a tale that everyone who has the barest interest in literature read before the age of 10.Did anyone actually do this? I didn't have any friends or family with a keen interest in literature; I was reading Redwall and LotR at that age.
>>24779145I remember reading a book of greek myths (illustrated) around that age which had the story of Odysseus but I wasn't reading Homer until first year of high school.
>>24779165That sounds more feasible to me in this day and age. I did read a few illustrated Greco-Roman mythology type books as a kid, mainly because I saw Greek mythology being reference in The Simpsons.
>>24778032bait of the highest quality, pristine and unspoiled.
>>24778762L. Ron Hubbard
>>24778489>mass appeal is not a mark of qualityI agree but neither is the opposite
It's intellectual surrender. All this fragmented, chaotic shit is just a sophisticated way of saying the world makes no sense and has no meaning. You walk away from their novels convinced that there are no universal standards, no coherence, and no ultimate story. This is not insightful, it's just declaration of philosophical bankruptcy.You remove all authority and reason from the universe, you don't get freedom, you get a dead end. You get pure niilism, and nobody can actually live that way. It's an irrational system that leads straight to cultural and personal despair.Postmodernism is diagnosis, sold as cure by bucktoothed weirdos and scat fetishist drunkards, and you retards eat it up.
>>24779784it's very obvious from posts like these that you're arguing from the position of having googled "what is a postmodern novel" five minutes ago and not from any personal experience of reading the authors involved. it's another excuse for why you're going to sit on this board all day and never read anything. far more despair-inducing than the confusion portrayed by pynchon etc is the realization of sharing the earth with mostly this type of soulless unperson, a smokescreen of confidently delivered fake opinions formed purely by imitating how others deliver opinions. homo tiktokus
>>24779815I used chatgpt, but that doesn't change the fact that Pynchon can't write worth a fuck or that you have terrible taste.
>>24780359>I used chatgptand this is supposed to make me less convinced that you're subhuman? that your crutches need crutches?
>>24780388If you're trying to argue that a machine's logic cannot be equally valid to that of a man's logic then you're not a postmodernist, buster.
>>24780417i never claimed to be, and what i'm arguing is that you are mentally crippled.
>>24780433I may be, but you can't refute that machine logic, baby
>>24780452there's nothing to refute. the fake post you didn't write says nothing about any actual book. you don't even know what point you're pretending to make when you paste random llm word salad. you're just a pajeet shitting in the street.
