can anybody help me in illuminating what "desire" actually is? more specifically the negative aspect of "desire"; and the difference between "desire" and the intuitive, natural movement which makes people just DO things.the Buddha talked about 3 taints: desire, fear, delusionthrough an alchemical lens these 3 taints shouldn't be eliminated, but they should be integrated into a whole psyche. delusion turns into clarity, fear turns into hope/courage, desire turns into what?one answer is found in how people talk about a "will"; Christians talk about a "holy spirit". this spiritual movement which initiates our actions in the world, but isn't a will based upon certain desires? is the 'will' not the collective force hanging above this underlying field of innumerable desires?in my opinion a conscious entity with no desire would just sit in a place and remain there until it died.. on a similar line of thought: even the Buddha had a DESIRE to preach wisdom & enlighten people, correct? he had a desire to eat food & survive.. otherwise he wouldn't do so. on a more cosmic level: i have a desire for a certain type of food over another type of food because i feel it sustains my body better.. this is a desire in line with all the cells in my body. my body desires meat & fruits over candy. this is another type of "desire". through an electromagnetic lens; we might be "attracted" to certain things or "repulsed" by other things and this manifests as "desire".the body creates instinctive desire (food, sex, safety, etc..) the mind incorporates these through alchemy to be in line with a spiritual movement (the cosmos). or; the body creates a singular, selfish desire for food, the mind recalibrates this desire in line with the spirit to turn the selfish desire for food into a giving, cosmic ideal which helps other people who might be hungrier first.hopefully my question or my "desire" for knowledge/answers here is kind of clear. i'm mostly spitballing ideas in hopes anons here add their 2 cents, answer some of the questions here & continue discussion. thank you.
>>24780310>through an alchemical lens these 3 taints shouldn't be eliminated, but they should be integrated into a whole psyche. delusion turns into clarity, fear turns into hope/courage, desire turns into what?already wrong, just watch star wars episode one yoda explains that fear and delusions are byproducts of desire and inability to let go
>>24780310i require desire to move around in this world.another train of thought involved Jesus Christ & Satanism. Satan embodies selfishness, responsibility & egoism. Jesus Christ embodies self-sacrifice. both should be in equal parts available in the psyche.
>>24780310>the Buddha talked about 3 taints: desire, fear, delusionCorrection. These are the three:>Some Pali canons mention three Äsava that sustain karmic flow. These three mentioned in the NikÄyas are "karmic propensities for sensual pleasures (kÄmÄsava), karmic propensities for existence (bhavÄsava), and karmic propensities for ignorance (avijjÄsava)".>Other Pali texts mention four Äsava, adding diį¹į¹hÄsava or "karmic propensities for a viewpoint or perspective".
>>24780310Did you read this sutta?https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN2.html
>>24780310Desire leads to transfiguration. Desire is what bridges hope and transcendence: you fix desire (will) on an incidental object through fantasy, but the proper object of the will is always the self. You break yourself down so that you can be rebuilt.
>>24780620>the selfoh dear
>>24780741? Is it hard to relate to personhood for you?
>>24780310You have a 90% chance to win 10x what you bet in a poker hand. If you fold you're objectively wrong. If you bet and lose you were still objectively right to do so.If your focus is on winning instead of playing correctly you'll perceive that as a failure even though you were playing correctly, you'll subconsciously try to correct something that was already correct.Yes, the desire to play correctly is rooted in wanting to win but it's still true that if you prioritize winning over playing right you'll win less. Living the ideal life will lead to rewards but if you do it for the rewards you're not living the ideal life.
>>24780310The three taints are kama, bhava and avija. The "desire" you are talking about relates to kama. Kama as a taint refers to sensuality. It is not simply "desire" to have a meal or go for a walk. In the case of monks (the Buddha's main audience), it typically means sexual desire, which was a taint they wanted to avoid for obvious reasons.But in general, it's best to keep in mind that we are talking about extremes. The Buddha advised against hedonism, not against enjoying a meal. He enjoyed meals himself. "Bring me that tender pork!" was one of the last things he said.
>>24781954wow cool. i always thought the Buddha was a lot different.. do you know what the actual last thing was that he said?
>>24781954So the middle path?
>>24780310Just use your own personal life experience it works for me desu
>>24780310"Desire" is indeed a difficult word in these contexts. For much of philosophical history in the West, the attraction of magnets, the way lipids separate, etc. all would have been described in terms of "natural desires." If this seems strange, just consider that our current language of natural "laws" which things "obey" is no less anthropomorphic, but simply stems from a nominalist theology of inscrutable divine command rather than rational nature.Beneficence is a sort of desire. As the Neoplatonists would have it, the Good is always diffusive and relates to the whole. Freedom is the self-determining actualization of the Good, but also its communication outwards. Buddhist traditions with a "luminous" Buddha-nature are not that different here (although, they are not wholly similar either). One can find similar themes in Taoism.For pre-modern "ethics" the core concern is not rules of conduct, nor the dialectic of the individual versus the community, but the sifting of merely apparent goods and what is truly most desirable. The Good is being qua desirable, and is in that sense a conceptual, not real distinction. It adds nothing to being, and yet is "objective."The rational desire for what is truly good and really true is what drives the rational soul towards beauty. The other desires are not evil, particularly in the Christian context, but even in Plato. Neoplatonism and Buddhism have a harder time integrating the "lower appetites." But these find a role once properly shaped and formed by the rational soul and its love of the Good. Plato's charioteer in the Phaedrus is a great image here, or Aristotle's notion of virtue as a trained skill. Lo Jong, the Buddhist practice I am most familiar with, has many similarities here though. Dwelling on death is as central to Tiberian Buddhist as Orthodox monasticism.
>>24780310>>24783002It's also worth pointing out that the "flesh," the "passions," and the "world" are not all of the appetites and creation in Christian thought (by way of comparison) but only those aspects that cast our gaze downwards. They are the world as seen through a gaze that does not recognize Sophia present in all things.Saint Isaac on Nineveh puts it well:>The world" is the general name for all the passions. When we wish to call the passions by a common name, we call them the world. But when we wish to distinguish them by their special names, we call them passions. The passions are the following: love of riches, desire for possessions, bodily pleasure from which comes sexual passion, love of honor which gives rise to envy, lust for power, arrogance and pride of position, the craving to adorn oneself with luxurious clothes and vain ornaments, the itch for human glory which is a source of rancor and resentment, and physical fear. Where these passions cease to be active, there the world is deadā¦. Someone has said of the Saints that while alive they were dead; for though living in the flesh, they did not live for the flesh. See for which of these passions you are alive. Then you will know how far you are alive to the world, and how far you are dead to it.
Fear does not become hope or bravery. The opposite of fear is actually power. The true origin of fear is a perceived lack of power. When one side has power the other is in fear. Thatās why the elite want us to be afraid all the time. Then by natural law the power will shift to them. Simply stop fearing them and you will get your power back from them. Desire I think is a trick. Itās a sensation or phenomenon internally that makes you believe that you currently are lacking something. That you need to go get or do something. It tell you that thereās a problem that needs mending. It is the force that breaks up wholeness and serenity. Thus is the root of suffering.
>>24783008>>24783002I should note that in Buddhism the language tends to be more about dissolving the lower appetites as one dissolves delusion or uprooting them. One ceases to identify with them. The focus on training them and using them in the erotic ascent is not the same.However, in Tantric Buddhism and Bodhisattva ethics come closer to the Western view. The pre-modern world, from Latin Christendom to India, to Islam, to China all tend to have a virtue ethics, and there are some strong similarities there. Modern ethics is really the outlier here.
>>24783074Yes, but there is a similarity between fear, hope, and anger. That's why Saint Thomas groups these under the irascible appetites. The Greeks would say these correspond to the spirited part of the soul, to thymos or the chest (the desire for honor and recognition as well) as opposed to the bodily appetites (aligned to bodily pleasures or pains, hedonism and safety), epithumia, which Plato associates with the belly. For Plato, the head (logos) must rule the belly through the chest. It is our strong emotions that drive us to conquer the bodily appetites when we need to. This allows us to pursue arduous goods.Even the Christians, who mark well Christ's words about wrath, still see a role for anger in righteous outrage. Saint Diadochus of Photoki advises that we make a whip from the name of Christ and use it to drive the demons from our mind as Christ drove the money changers from the temple, for the body is a temple to the Holy Spirit (Saint Paul).
>>24782909>āNow, then, monks, I exhort you: All fabrications are subject to ending & decay. Reach consummation through heedfulness.ā
>>24782909Westerners have a lot of misconceptions about Buddhism and the Buddha. I find that when a westerner learns about what Buddhism is really like, they tend to realize that it's a lot more logical and less esoteric and mystical than they expected, and it brings them some joy. Like they go, "Oh, that makes sense. I could apply this and make my life better without a lot of effort."
>>24782911Yes, always the Middle Way.
>>24780741Lmfao
>>24783002What that nigga holdin
>>24783008>Saint Isaac on NinevehI read this as saint Isaac of Newton.
>>24783162Youāre very smart, anon.
