I'm mega right-wing but you have to admit the motives behind capital punishment are pretty primal. It's unsettling seeing it dressed up in this detached Thomistic intellectualism. One feels more at ease with an angry mob, or a Nazi or Soviet functionary, who is simply upfront about his desire to slaughter his enemies, to crush and punish, to watch people die.

>>24813662
Even if one may prudentially wish to argue that capital punishment should not be liberally applied for one reason or another, such as possessing better means of imprisonment for offenders, I think the major issue comes down to saying that the death penalty is *inherently* unjust. From a Christian perspective, to slay a person created in the image of God who is innocent is an enormous crime, one that justifies the removal of that person from society and their elimination from this world. It's not about a desire for bloodshed, that itself is disordered, but for the protection of society and the restoration of justice. The death penalty will always be on the table. Ideally we work to convert these people to Christ, and then justice is carried out, and they are sent to God. It's lamentable that it had to happen that way, but I think life imprisonment is crueler ultimately. The victims of such offenders are deprived of the right to live, so why should the offender live like an animal in a box for the rest of his life?

>>24813651
I'm not following the debate a lot and capital penalty is something that doesn't interest me a lot. I think there might be a prudential argument to avoid it if you can.

But to be honest, looking from a point of view of continuity, Francis' ban doesn't make sense.

>>24813684
The way Francis talked about it is what ignited the debate, saying it was inadmissible and against the Gospel. The way JP2 and Benedict talked about it was much more sensible, in making it a judgment of prudence, which I can entirely understand even as a supporter of capital punishment. The ultimate example for showing mercy at times in support of the prudential argument is of course Christ with the woman who was going to be stoned. St. Augustine way back in the day actually used this point to urge leniency with the death penalty in cases involving the Church:
https://substack.com/home/post/p-159706314

no because feser is just obviously correct and you can't really argue against it without openly contradicting previous teaching.
All the anti-death penalty stuff is just vauge feeling posting

>>24813662
dude you are a fag

>>24813699
I don't really envy Pope Leo and the situation he inherited. It would probably be easier to follow up a Pope who leads armies in order to give his bastard son a kingdom.

>>24813709
Unfortunately Leo seems to be following the path of least resistance at the moment, which is just following the path of Francis.

>>24813705
I will infect you with Lice

>>24813734
I think there have been some improvements, if you follow Curia news.
Not the kind of improvement we would like, but some improvements

>>24813651
why do you expect the protestant vatican to address anything regarding Catholicism?

>>24813933
The Vatican has issues, but the Bishop of Rome is the Bishop of Rome. Like it or not he is the boss.

I hate natural law
Is it possible to be Catholic whilst thinking that natural law is repulsive and just follow the Bible?

why should i be catholic if the church is basically just a refugee resettlement ngo? shouldn't christianity be about more?

>>24813952
Natural law is taught in the Bible, have you never read Romans 1 and Romans 2? To follow natural law is basically to be a Christian who understands God’s origination of the created order and the end towards which it is oriented.

>>24814049
Become Sede

>>24813952
https://www.newadvent.org/summa/2091.htm#article2

>>24813952
Carl Schmitt was a Catholic legal positivist

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>>24814049
St. Jerome taught in his commentaries on the Gospel of Matthew that in the last days the abomination of desolation in the Temple would be perversion of doctrine. The suicidal immigration policies of the current Vatican are a result of this general crisis in the Church. It is not of a dogmatic order but a prudential. Prudential decisions and application of doctrine can be in error

>>24814053
Sedevacantism is a dead-end, desu. I agree that there have been heresies espoused by the post-Conciliar Popes, but I think they're at least materially the Pope so long as they are not removed from the office.

>>24813651
>Did anyone ever refute Feser's book defending the death penalty

Jesus

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>>24814365
The same Jesus who gave Moses the Law? I don't think so

>>24813682
exactly that, from a christian perspective the ultimate goal is more converts, and although the death penalty is the ultimate punishment as it nearly ensures the executed will go to hell, it also completely eradicates the possibility of redemption and, thus, proper guilt for their actions. it would be one thing to kill a dangerous individual on sight due to their extreme danger to those around them, but once they are captured and properly secured there isn't any actual benefit to executing them, especially as they evidently don't fear death due to being willing to risk execution to commit their crimes. even if they never redeem themselves, hellfire still awaits them, so it's generally a net gain to at least try

>>24813651
yoooo
feser is literally my philosophy 101 professor right now lmao
chill guy
didnt know he had other books besides the aquinas one

>>24814937
He had written plenty of books. He is very good in that his books have a good mix of readability and depth, which is kind of hard in Thomism.

>>24814049
all the Church is guaranteed to be reliable on is magisterial teaching, if the society has totally degraded you'd anticipate the Church to degrade just as much as well. It's fairly obviously there's a huge amount of intelligence agencies and financial corruption, as well as just clergy alienated from the populace but I think it's principally from the destruction of the social order.
The church hierarchy apart from magisterial authority, basically can only be as good as the social structures are.
If our entire government is a organized crime and intelligence agencies blackmailing people with pedophilia and doing occult rituals, then yeah they are also going to capture some of the worldly aspects of the Church (which has obviously happened and is the norm with literally every institution on earth right now).
They still administer the sacraments and can forgive sins, it was an early heresy that was denounced that priests need to be holy to do the sacraments.

People are generally just unable to talk clearly about this though, if you don't want every institution on earth to be captured by a globalist pedophile mafia you have to deal with them you can't just pray and hope it goes away.

>>24814937
He's a fantastic author he has a good fairly popular "refutation of athiesm" that serves as a basic introduction to classical philosophy but more in particular he has his "treatise" series which is all very good:
Scholastic Metaphysics (on metaphysics)
Aristotle's Revenge (on physics/science)
Immortal Souls (on philosophical anthropology/philosophy of mind)
and I'd probably also cinlude
Five Proof's for the existence of God (On natural theology)

They are all excellent and he's very conversant with modern philosophers and the current literature as well as thomist stuff, you are lucky to have him.

>>24814937
Oh yeah i've also read his blog for like a decade it's very good
https://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2018/12/the-sexual-revolution-devours-its.html
here's a good classic post I really like about how gay people don't exist

>>24813651
>John 8:7
>Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.

This one quote from big J. C. himself refutes the book, everyone involved in this is going to heck.

>>24816706
the comparison here between the faculty of the eye to see and the sexual appetite seems to be a category error
if the telos of a man's appetite is to have sex with a woman, why would celibacy ever be desirable? why would this natural desire need to be tempered? you don't need to temper your eyesight, it is automatic and completely apart from one's will, but the acting out of one's sexuality is much more complicated and the drives behind it are perfectly capable of being remolded in a way one's sight is not

>>24816863
Wow Feser must be unaware of this verse. Someone should tell him about it.

>>24817071
Yes and I'm sure he came up with a wonderful cope on how this central message from Jesus Christ was wrong. He surely knows better than the son of god.

>>24813682
> Ideally we work to convert these people to Christ, and then justice is carried out, and they are sent to God.
If you had really converted them killing them would be unnecessary.

>>24817095
I think he'd bring up that there's a difference between individuals and states.

>>24814553
>as it nearly ensures the executed will go to hell
It does no such thing.

>>24817106
Reinterpretting and finding loop-holes in religious teachings is what the Jews do. We needn't stoop that low.

>>24817030
he's written shit on this dude this is a 2.5k year old tradition you aren't bringing up anything novel
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4SjM0oabZazWC1SRmN0WXVpYkE/view?resourcekey=0-mEl0wIXhM8qd4ieiCuosvQ
here's an essay on it

it's contrary to end vs indifferent to end

>>24817133
i would hope to not be bringing up anything novel, so that's good, and thank you for the text
though when it gets to the part about goodness in life, it somewhat ignores the implications of evolution, and i found that conspicuous
does he not tackle the fact that the matters he refers to as being contained in the first and second categories of goodness are fundamentally unstable, and shift through time via the same mechanisms that cause the defects he rejects?
i also find it odd that he invokes the principle of totality for earplugs as conductive to one's natural end even while blocking the ears' function, but does not do so for the prosocial effects of homosexual relations as they happened in ancient greece and other heavily homosocial environments, or for the simple act of masturbatory relief that even animals commit

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>>24816691
The entire modern West basically just needs to be destroyed. Smash it, wreck it, burn it, in Christ's Name. We tried to get along with it and evangelize it, that was the point of Vatican 2. But it didn't fucking work and Vatican 2 is a failed council. So if we can't coexist with the modern West we'll just fucking kill it.

We took out the Soviet Union, we can take out the United States and modern Europe. God is with us, and not with them. And we'll build a new world, a better world, once they're dead.

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>>24816706

>>24817676
Very bluepilled view, the concil of trent is where all the problems started. The over centralization and bureaucratization and standardization of the Church could only have ever ended up like this, and it was basically bending the knee to Protestantism and modern rationalism.

>>24817986

Elaborate.

>>24813651
Haven't read it, but the state should not have the right to kill its own citizens. I don't have many fundamental beliefs but I have that one.

>>24818012
medieval europe had insane variety in dialects, local folk practices, festivals, local saints, variations in practice. The sort of emphasis on local order reflects the fundamental analogia entis and ordered hierarchy of reality, it's basically subsidiarity in practice. There is no control trying to be imposed on everything
There's an instinct (arguably introduced from the printing press, or the mechanistic worldview, or nominalism people dispute how exactly it's probably a little of everything) of rational systemization and standardization. Everything must be ordered by an administrator, and everything apart from their systematic organization is evil or does not exist. This is basically what science is (anything the laws of physics can't describe aren't real).
This was enacted in basically every nation state by the violent persecution of dialects, local languages, and folk practices to the nation state. The first places this occurred was the english doing it against Catholic irish and scottish, torturing their children in standardized schooling so they submit to the state. Much of the criticism of things like folk healing, astrology and other things like that were things protestants used to attack local Catholic communities and Catholicism as a whole as being "occult". (The main issue is this standardization thing though, it's just about bringing everything under the control of administrators).
The council of Trent was basically just totally bending the knee on this point and granting the protestants were right about everything. The analogy of being isn't real, we can't have different localities with different practices that can't be systematized, everything needs to be structured and ordered and managed or it's fundamentally hostile and evil.

This is against the instinct of the entire previous history of Catholicism, and europe.
It effectively destroyed organic culture and population groups. People need to have local cultures organically develop and to function in, if not the culture dies as we have seen.
The Church currently, basically did nothing to stop the cultural genocide that occurred and is STILL actively encouraging it through mass immigration to destroy European culture even further.
The error of Christianity is universal means everyone needs to function identically is a rejection of the ordered revelation in nature/analogy of being.
As I said most of these movements were initially done AGAINST Catholics like in england or in it's more modern forms in the kulturkampf in prussia or the war of the vendee where the first modern genocide was France genocoding a local culture that spoke a different dialect. (And would later go on to intentionally and openly plan to eliminate folk practices even folk music which is another common thread)

>>24818013
We humans are gregarious beings, and our flourishing comes in societies. Our well-being is tied up with that of others, and thus law is necessary for the maintenance of a civil order. Anyone who goes against this is punished by the laws as a matter of justice. Punishment is proportionate to the crime, to commit violent crimes like murder warrants the most severe of all punishments, and that is death, because man is in God’s image (Genesis 9). The state is God’s minister for this. Romans 13.

>>24818702
but this article specifically refers to those passages in its response:
>>24813699

bump

>>24814153
Okay, so whats your solution?

>>24818031
So what's the answer? A reverse of Vatican 2 and Vatican 1, a de-centralization of the Church?

At minimum I think I am right that the West, as we know it, needs to go. America, the EU Europe, they've gotta be taken out for the good of the People of God.

>>24820575
Yeah I think we are generally on a decentralization thing historically in general. I think the sort of mass organized thing is predicated basically on the culture shaped by printing technology and sort of the initial destruction done by electric communication/the telegram. I think we are past that though and that attitude has basically destroyed the functional part of society (again you basically just need normal families/workers tied to the land as a basic unit of political organization) the Church has just reflected that.
Unfortunately I don't see it going smoothy I see the west largely descending into my tribal/ethnic warfare and conflict with all the people we've imported. I don't know exactly how it will go but that does seem inevitable now.

For the Church just returning the emphasis to actual bishops instead of the giant beuarcratic structures makes sense I don't really know if anything actually to be done outside of that as I said the main problem is just the underlying social disorder. Vatican 2 arguably actually helped open up more of that flexibility however actual medieval catholicism would still be extremely alienating to basically everyone alive now in just how varied it was. Folk saints, folk practices, astrology, all the "icky" stuff will likely return that used to be acceptable. These are just products of actual cultures before they were intentionally destroyed as are part of the scientific/technological domination of reality. Which again the Church did participate in and did nothing to really stand against, but was not a primary cause.

>>24813651
Christ overruled the old testament with his new covenant, love thy enemy his message. I don’t even know this writer and I’m confident he’s some tradlarper rightist orc

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>>24820966
>Unfortunately I don't see it going smoothy I see the west largely descending into my tribal/ethnic warfare and conflict with all the people we've imported. I don't know exactly how it will go but that does seem inevitable now.

I think we'll win. We're not strangers to conflict over our long history. We've defeated pagans, heathens, and heretics before, in peace and in war. We will again. And we'll do it regardless what the current occupants of Vatican City think.

>>24822885
you're brown

>>24823610
Not OP but seriously what’s wrong with being brown. I don’t understand why people use it as an insult.