>“The technology is just gonna get better and better and better and better. And it's gonna get easier and easier, and more and more convenient, and more and more pleasurable to be alone with images on a screen, given to us by people who do not love us but want our money. Which is all right. In low doses, right? But if that's the basic main staple of your diet, you're gonna die. In a meaningful way, you're going to die."sorry DFW-sama. I wasn't familiar with your game
Philosophies like this are emotionally compelling until you realize that throughout history, the masses have always been distracted by brain-dead, empty time hobbies available to them. Write for the sunetoi. Only in rare cases to books catch on in the mainstream, and even then it's usually withheld for palatable and trendy books like Harry Potter or Robert Service. Not to slander those writers, they have their merits
>>24819903>the masses have always been distracted by brain-dead, empty time hobbies available to them.Feel free to back this statement up at anytime.
>>24819970You need sources to believe that people throughout history had dumb hobbies?
>>24819982Yes.
>>24819970Religion, billions of people over the ages were throughly spellbound by the ramblings of a handful of Middle Eastern dudes
>>24819985Kek. Okay. Look up penny dreadfuls and dime novels. The masses have always consumed their slip, be it TikTok or a stick and a hoop
>>24819886I love all 4chan posters, so it's possible you are seeing something out of pure love.
>>24819992>throughout historyWhat about the masses in the year 1000? And are you really saying that a cheap novel is equivalent to watching 10 hours of short form video content? So you're just ignoring the quote,>And it's gonna get easier and easier, and more and more convenientSo you can write a platitude about le masses in a classic /lit/izen form of self-aggrandizement. At the very least you need to show that a penny dreadful and a tiktok video both consumed at the same levels of ease and convenience.
>>24820017Kek. Caught a sperg, but you're right in some regard. Even these were for the literate, which axed about half the population. What do you think the rest were doing, anon? Philosophizing in their filth like Diogenes? Or do you think they worked every waking hour of every day of their lives? There was slop. Oh boy, there was slop alright. Hell, they probably just sat around, drank, and/or bullshitted.On a side note, and this is not meant for (you), but what do we think DFW would have thought with some of his quotes taken in a reactionary direction?
>>24820028>There was slop. Oh boy, there was slop alright. Feel free to show this!>Hell, they probably just sat around, drank, and/or bullshitted.Which of course is not as easy or convenient as the entertainment described by Deefster in the OP... glad you are already coping your way out of this by dismissing me as a sperg, Mr. Sunetoi.
>>24820041Literal bread and circuses, the mases rioted over their games and their teams like football hologians and nearly burned down pompeii.https://roman-empire.net/society/pompeii-gladiator-riot
>>24820056Hm, this does not seem as easy or convenient to consume as an instagram reel.
>>24820041You know what? Sure. I just read a book on the development of Halloween as a holiday. The amount of truly useless games, superstitions, and banalities recorded in just the brief outline of this holidays development is astounding, and this is only the stuff we have record of. There were no less than a dozen different games that amounted to throw something in a fire/set something on fire to see the initials/face of your future mate. The same goes for saying something and looking in a mirror. Look into any specific quirk/event for a culture and you're met with the same results of empty, thoughtless time-killers. Whether it's stacking rocks or moving dirt, there's always something for the dullards. Any cursory research will tell you that they were always telling stories, but at a certain point they did something else, it's often that it's just so boring, unremarkable, and stupid that the acts don't get preserved. Now, if you want to sit there and argue that watching a TikTok is inherently easier than zoning out to the story your hammered uncle tells you for the fifteenth about the three-legged deer, then so be it. I'm not going to argue that. I just think you're arguing from a place that romanticizes the past, and if I had to guess, probably from a discontentment with a present, maybe even your present.
>>24820087>ends up just agreeing with the op quote and making a personal attackSeems my work here is done.
>>24820091I didn't agree with you, and I didn't make an attack. You asked for evidence, I provided it. Whether you accept the loss or not matters little
>>24819985Circuses, peanut galleries and gladiatorial arenas to name a few.
>>24820028>Hell, they probably just sat around, drank, and/or bullshitted.this is 100x better for the soul compared to our new shiny time-wasters. Think about what content is popular on youtube and tv and you will find that it is basically this, an attempt at recreating the feeling of talking bullshit with friends. The difference is now we do it all alone.
>>24819903Way to miss the point, retard. According to him what's killing people is not the vacuousness of tv and internet, it's spending time alone in a dark room while being fed propaganda.
>>24820132Could be. Don't want to argue if it's better for the soul because it comes down to personal opinion. What I will say is that all the efforts of man have been simplified and made easier in our modern world. Get yourself a glass of water right now. Now use your imagination to think of what that must have been like a few centuries ago. Go to a well or a creek, fill up a pot or bucket, bring it home, have some water. Every minute detail has been made more efficient. Bathing. Eating. Buying clothes. Seeing a friend. Talking to your school buddy who now lives across state. Now was this all done to give us more time to, as they say, consoom? I don't know. I don't think so. Maybe some of it, but most of it was probably made quicker because people wanted more time. Maybe for their hobbies or for their fun activities or to spend time with people. Who knows? And with all these advancements come things that are much better. Things those who idealize the past don't want to admit are better. Medicine, for example. Transportation. Communication. Safety. You are less likely to die at a younger age now than you were throughout history. Again, is this to make a better customer? I doubt it. I do agree, to some extent, that people are no longer forced to interact as much in person as they used to be, but I don't think this boils down to something as simple as the OP quote about ease of pleasure makes it out to be. Thoughtless activity is not new. Across the board, the masses HAVE been getting smarter. People love to make the contrarian argument, but then they have to pull from the elites. Just 150 years ago, over half of everyone couldn't read. If we took a class sample of this board, I'd bet a majority of the posters on here would fall into that illiterate bunch, if we placed them in their respective class of the 19th century. My point being that this line of thinking goes nowhere. You can writhe in the muck of doomer philosophy, but that won't lead you to any answers. I propose there's something deeper, and if you continue to apply yourself, you can start pulling apart the knot of that deeper thing. That's where you'll find value. Seething about indulgence in slop will not provide you that value.
>>24820153>spending time alone in a dark roomMaybe that's new>while being fed propagandaBut this is certainly not. And nobody of a decent intellect is falling for either of these two traps. To argue that more people are falling for it now is a complete misread of a very selective history
>>24819886Transbian phenotype.
>>24819886God damn it, this is the type of shit that pisses me off about DFW and everyone like him. He's obviously right, but for fuck's sake, man, this shit has been a complaint since the dawn of time. You're just so far up your own smug asshole that you let it make you depressed and shit rather than laugh and try to have a good time every now and then. Fucking philosophy fags, I swear.“Most of what passes for legitimate entertainment is inferior or foolish and only caters to or exploits people's weaknesses. Avoid being one of the mob who indulges in such pastimes. Your life is too short and you have important things to do. Be discriminating about what images and ideas you permit into your mind. If you yourself don't choose what thoughts and images you expose yourself to, someone else will, and their motives may not be the highest. It is the easiest thing in the world to slide imperceptibly into vulgarity. But there's no need for that to happen if you determine not to waste your time and attention on mindless pap.”Epictetus. The Art of Living: The Classical Manual on Virtue, Happiness and Effectiveness“The audience cannot tell the difference between good and bad art, and so the imitator panders to their desires, producing whatever will please them, regardless of whether it is good or not.”Plato. Republic, Book X, 605d–606a“The mass of mankind are evidently quite slavish in their tastes, preferring a life suitable to beasts.”Aristotle. Ethics, 1095b20
>>24820175>this shit has been a complaint since the dawn of time>And it's gonna get easier and easier, and more and more convenient, and more and more pleasurable to be alone with images on a screen, given to us by people who do not love us but want our money.Learn to read!!!!
>>24820162>And nobody of a decent intellect is falling for either of these two traps.
>>24820183>Anon posts about how, throughout history, intellectuals have determined that there are always time wasters, and that it's up to an individual to filter out the experiences in their life >You come in arguing that it's getting easier It doesn't matter, anon. His whole point was that it's a personal decision to avoid slop. Always has been. The ease at which slop can be accessed is irrelevant because you still have choice in the matter. Jesus, this argument is so stupid that I have to explain simple existentialism to people
>>24819985The 2000's had a bunch of crappy gossip in every magazineThe 90', 80's and 70's s had talentless hacks playing on every radio like Vanilla Ice and the MonkeesCrappy detective novels, all bestseller authors that haven't sold a dime in decades nor influenced shit. Prostitution and alcohol were the true opium of the working class. Labubus? Beanie babies. The arts have always been reserved for those with the hearts and souls to appreciate them -and that's one of the reasons why you should finally realize that not everyone on this earth has a soul, they are merely alive.
>>24820160>What I will say is that all the efforts of man have been simplified and made easier in our modern world. Get yourself a glass of water right now. Now use your imagination to think of what that must have been like a few centuries ago. Go to a well or a creek, fill up a pot or bucket, bring it home, have some water.I very much agree. I won't speak ill of the conveniences and quality of life such things can give. In fact, it gives a me an idea for a solution to the problem, why don't we recreate communal gatherings such as these? We do this for sports, it basically mass gatherings to view violence, a very old school way of life. There could be town water wells or something to that nature which could attract surbanites due to its novelty, but is just a way of bringing together people to hopefully bring about more dialogue. Grocery stores, fast food restaurants, car washers have none of this effect anymore. You go in and get out. Dont you see old people always trying to make awkward conversation with burned out zoomer workers at 7/11s? its because theyre stuck to the old ways of communal living and are continually bewildered in the new world.
>>24820186Hey man, I think the blue collar, fat, white-monster-drinking, Zyn-swallowing tubbos who play Madden and watch clips of Rogan have every right to exist, and I've befriended more than my share, but I'm not exactly bemoaning the fall of man everytime one of them opens up instagram to watch sorority chicks jump up and down
>>24820183>Learn to read!!!!No u. Start with the Greeks. Or go back further and read the Instructions of Shurrupak. Or don't. Keep being a retard. I don't care.
>>24820202>no smart people waste their time with vacuous entertainmentA startling self-admission of anon's intellect?>>24820204Yet another anon who couldn't help but talk himself up...
>>24820195I think you response is well-thought, but there are two things I'd like to bring up. One, the virtual meeting space. These do exist, and I met a lot of young people who seemed to have no issues with spending their time there. They got outside for what they thought was worth it, be it social or a simple errand, but they were content to spend their time on discord or with their communities. Think like twitch or something. That said, I don't think this works for everyone, which leads me to number two. There is a desire to get back out in the real world amongst some younger people, especially post covid. Whether or not you like these things, running clubs and climbing gyms popped up everywhere. DnD is getting bigger than ever. Vanlife had an entire phase. I've met people who either wanted to or committed to going to a commune for a little bit. There are clothes swaps, meet-ups, and concerts. Skating seems to be bigger than it has been for a couple decades. Again, we might not like these things or they might go against our beliefs, but it shows that people are making an effort to connect in the real world. Even DFW talked about the discontentment and guilt people feel wasting away their time. Where he was a little off, though, was assuming it was a downward spiral and not a pendulum.
>>24820207>no smart people waste their time with vacuous entertainmentDidn't say this. I think a little indulgence is fine, so long as it's not interrupting the things one finds real value in. If I was single, unemployed, uneducated and friendless, I would absolutely cut back my indulgence time. As I am not those things, I moderate and ensure it does not interrupt the rest of my life
>>24820216>Didn't say this.>>24820186You did say this.
>>24820220vacuous entertainment =/= propaganda I might clock in for a video essay about an indie game every now and then, but that doesn't mean I'm sitting in a dark room consuming propaganda. Like I said, didn't say that
>>24820227>vacuous entertainment =/= propaganda
>>24820237Kek. You just absolutely have to know you're reaching, now
>>24820214>I think you response is well-thoughtthank you, Yours as well. >One, the virtual meeting space.What I dislike about virtual communities is that by the very nature of the medium some important features of oral communication are left out. It is much harder online to tell if someone is actually listening to you. For, example think about zoom video calls, you got a grid of everyone's face, which in itself can cause some disorientation, and whenever someone speaks, you aren't turning your head, just moving your eyes. Compare this with something like an indian gathering, or an AA meeting kek. You can tell much easier who is listening, and you yourself can gain confidence when you see other people intently observing you, or the opposite, you can redirect and readjust when it seems like people aren't paying attention. There are many other of these little nuances that I can't think of right now, but I hope you understand my point. >Again, we might not like these things or they might go against our beliefs, but it shows that people are making an effort to connect in the real world.I agree and would go so far as to say that I do not even care what they are discussing, as long as they ARE discussing. I do think you underestimate the problem a bit though amongst the young generation
>>24819886>In a meaningful way, you're going to die.In what way? According to him we're all just sacks of meat anyway.
>>24820162>nobody of a decent intellectthis is tops 20% of the population btw, the rest can vote and have unrestricted internet access
>>24820242I agree with everything you've said in the first point. I can also see how some youngsters don't really care about the differences you or I may notice. Hell, in college I would play games with my high school friends and apps like discord and skype went a long way to keep us in touch. I have a lot to say about how this interconnectedness has destroyed and rebuilt the idea of the niche, but it's much too long for how late it is. As to your second point, it's possible that I underestimate it, but I've never found the doomer outlook as anything other than absurd to a hilarious degree. Even in middle school, when I read that Ray Bradbury story about the guy who gets arrested for taking a walk because everyone's watching TV, I thought it was dumb. Hyperbolic criticisms like that have been trendy for a while now. So long, in fact, that DFW himself was tired of it. Criticisms of media consumption becoming consumable mainstream media. Black Mirror is still dropping episodes, nearly 50 years after this ball got rolling. The idea that everyone will end up in a dark room looking only at screens as an auto-masturbator milks every last drop is a joke that has been done to death. Frankly, I find writing about it to be for the birds, especially because most writers don't even bother to offer a clear solution, and instead opt for an "interpretive" ending. I do believe the pendulum will swing back, regardless of how bad it gets, and the examples I listed are just the start to that turn. 20 years ago, it was a funny admission to share that sometimes we wanted to bail on shit to stay home and watch TV or be on the Internet. Now the funny joke is to say the opposite. Also, in my original list, I forgot to mention standup and improv comedy. Those are exploding, as is gym use, but that one is a little different.
>>24820261>this is tops 20% of the population btw, the rest can vote and have unrestricted internet accessIn line with my historical argument. Hell, 20 might be even more than I'd expect.
>things that are bad for you are bad in excessThis is so deep and profound I'm going to fucking kill myself
he's right and most of you are wrong
>>24820270> Even in middle school, when I read that Ray Bradbury story about the guy who gets arrested for taking a walk because everyone's watching TV, I thought it was dumb. Hyperbolic criticisms like that have been trendy for a while now.Yes, you are right again. You can even look to the ancients, the Greek myth of Pygmalion is also telling the same story and expressing the same fears as Ray Bradbury and DFW. The story HAS been done to death. However, do not disregard tropes because they are tropes. Look back to what DFW's quote is saying>The technology is just gonna get better and better and better and better.This is why I think there has been an explosion in discussion around this topic. The main fear now is that due to rapid technological development(the fastest and most societally daunting in history), it might just be possible to reproduce and stimulate the senses enough so that something like the auto-masturbator COULD happen. I think a rudimentary version of this exists too, picture a shut-in who got lucky from crypto and lives off it and get his stimulation from his RTX 4090 AI companion system and has access to the largest media library so vast that no Greek Emperor would ever believe could exist, and gets his weed and KFC doordashed. These people obviously make up a very very small percent of the population, so much so that it doesn't affect society at large. But it IS possible, that's why I think the fears expressed by these authors are not something to overlook. Despite this, I still think your outlook is the correct one to have, and because we don't have matrix-level jack in systems yet(even if we did), it is important to believe we can push back. I also believe your observations about people going out more often are true, which is a good sign.
>>24820281What are you gonna do about it, faggot? Go pleasure yourself alone in your hole with you philosophy books. Fuckin philosophy fags, man. A bunch of blowhard narcissists, all of ‘em, I swear.
>>24819985Pliny commented on it 2000 years ago:>It amazes me that thousands and thousands of grown men should be like children, wanting to look at horses running and men standing on chariots over and over again. If it was the speed of the horses or the skill of the drivers that attracted them, there would be some sense in it— but in fact it is simply the color. That is what they back and that is what fascinates them. Suppose half way though the race the drivers were to change their colors, then the supporters’ backing will change too and in a second they will abandon the drivers and horses whose names they shout as they recognize them from afar. Such is the overpowering influence of a single worthless shirt.
I would like that anyone proved to me that this phenomenon is out of the scope of education. The free market provides supply for what is demanded, it doesn't tell you what ought to be demanded, which can be changed through education. >but companies manipulate us with marketing to demand things that we don't really want For me this argument attributes too much power to marketing like it were able to create needs ex nihilo. It doesn't create needs but new satisfiers of those needs. None of this it out of the scope of education.
>>24819982>>24819985nta but i read a bunch of stuff from the 18th-20th century, and it's a lot like everything was always the same (except when it wasn't, etc.)
>>24820132>alcoholism and prostitution are akshually not that bad for the soul4chan level spirituality bros
>>24820017Drinking, gambling, folklore
>>24820802God I love drinking and gambling.
>>24819886Bear in mind he's repeating himself so often as a reflection of the monotony of TVified entertainment. Soooooooo smart. Not
>>24819886I get his drift but I really don't understand people like him who think being pain all the time makes life worth living. Same with antinatalists who think murdering babies helps alleviate pain. All things in moderation I guess.
>>24819903>>24820175But there's obviously varying degrees of how brain dead, meaningless, and harmful your hobby is, unless you're a complete nihilist who doesn't believe anything matters at all and all lives are lived equally. People act like escapism hasn't drastically increased to insane levels in recent decades are coping hard. At least escapism in previous decades was more sociable and obviously less instantly gratifying.
>>24819886I <3 DFW
>>24819991Living a virtuous life = watching tiktok all day
>>24819903Retards like you think that things aren’t capable to get worse, that everything has always been the same. You’re the dog in that gay comic strip with the house burning down and him saying “This is fine”, just complete and utter arrogance and ignorance, a deadly combination.
>>24821119Too much doomerism probably isn’t good for the psyche, but you’re right that there’s an entire class of people who smugly proclaim “everything is the same as ever” as a way to ignore real problems facing society. An individual can make the choice to abstain from brainrot slop, but what are the ramifications for having children in a world where such brainrot slop is pervasive? Ignoring it seems more foolish than being a megadoomer.And while the masses have always enjoyed their diversions, there is a material difference between peasants spending their free time drinking and gambling and modern humans staring at a glowing brick for 10 hours a day to have a shortform slopfeed pumped into their brains. A big difference, perhaps, is that few people sit with their boredom or their thoughts anymore. It’s so easy to pull out your phone any time you have a spare moment, and it seems logical that this same thing happening on a society-wide scale will have deep impacts both on the individual and on the collective behavior of society.
>>24821119I didn't say that but thanks for the r*ddit meme reference, I guess, which ironically is one of the most brainless online time-sinks there is
>>24820732So we had pseud nerds getting upset about their own invented strawmen all the way back then too?
>>24819886Surrogate activities, if you will.
>>24822054So are you moving your goalpost or are you claiming there is no and never has been such a thing a bread and circus?
>>24822070>everyone is such a fucking drooling moron they never think at all>not me though. i'm different™>oh and i guess anyone i personally like or who agrees with me is different™ toopeople who make these types of statements are universally midwits seething in envy about someone else's success
>>24822191You're not addressing the content of the question, sir.
The alternative to hermit lyfe is mingling with a bunch of boring normies like DFW.Yeah, I think I'm staying home and reading a book instead, thanks.
>>24819886The point of any civilization is to justify the existence of the ruling class. That is a clear fact of reality.Whenever any material advantage is gained by one group of people, they're forced to justify why they get to have more. Kings/Nobility in antiquity, would say they descended from gods or had a divine mandate to rule, which was usually enough to quell the average dirt-eating peasant, at least enough until times were bad enough to kill the king, at which point civilization usually fell apart, because unsurprisingly, overturning the only form of government and the only people with administrative ability, rarely ends well, especially when it's during already hard times. The bronze age collapse is a good example of this.Post Age of Enlightenment, when it's become harder for a rational person believe in prior religious conventions, the social contract of King or Noble, loses its effectiveness, and a new ruling class arises, the capitalist. These people also have to justify why they have excess, but without a religious framework, instead using the possibility of social/economic mobility for the lower classes.Does that exist? Eh, kind've, but not really. Blah blah blah, better chance of being struck by lightning, blah blah blah.Either way, as these capitalists continue to increase the wealth disparity, coinciding with the development of advanced technology, they can funnel their wealth into the development of machines that perfectly engage the average worker, reducing the likelihood of social upheaval, all while having created a social framework that has demonized violence and characterized opposition as entitled or lazy.The ruling class has always built society to justify their lives, this is just nearing its unfortunate logical conclusion.
>>24819992>>24820114>>24820194>>24820732Engaging in any of those activities would be less destructive to the soul than social media.
>>24820973This
>>24822221I did address the content of the question, I just didn't address the superficial part of the question. For that:No, I don't think there was a particular Roman policy of establishing breads and circuses as a means of depriving people of their intellect, or in even in keeping an intellectually-stunted people happy. And I doubt that's what Juvenal really meant. Bread and circuses are both things that exist, but their existence does not make men stupid, nor do only the stupid eat bread or watch a circus. Stupid men might enjoy any number of things, and wise men might enjoy the same things for different reasons, or different things for the same reasons.
>>24822309Source it
