The best way to tell if a philosopher is serious is if they are misogynistic.
obit anus, abit onus
So true bro. Fuck foids!
True. How can you trust a philosopher that can't even say water is wet. All those French and Enlightenment faggots literally ruined society and they all were bleeding hearts when it comes to women.Really.Makes.You.Think.
likewise the best way to tell if a poet is serious is if they are matriarchal
>>24886136>>24886131Its not about fucking foids (you shouldn't) its about acknowledging the logical consequence of distict attributes and their general, though not essential, ramifications.
>>24886163Bruh Homer was misogynistic af >>24886131Bruh ion care about foids. Hating them is as gay as loving them. Just stop thinking about them.
>>24886174the iliad, starts off ‘sing to me, o goddess.’
>
>>24886184Muses are not same as women. Muses are androgynous
>>24886188>androgynoussays what?
>>24886188they’re explicitly female.
>>24886184The actual poem is about achilles, it has nothing to do with women. Same goes for the adventures of odysseus.By the way, the habit of singing odes to a female idol actually begins with petrarch. I have some theories about why this simpery did not exist in either pagan or christian europe, only becoming a thing post renaissance. But that goes to say it's a trend that has ebbed and flowed for the past couple centuries, a product of late cultural decline. Not at all traditional much less perennial, as you want to make it seem
>>24886191>>24886195Imagine comparing a foid with a Goddess.
>>24886188Hesiod explicitly calls them the "daughters of aegis-bearing Zeus" (κοῦραι Διὸς αἰγιόχοιο)
Schoppy once saw a genius artist lady about 19 yrs of age in his later years and did a complete 180 and preached about how women can only surpass men if they're isolated from gossip
>>24886196actually it’s borrowed from pre-hellenic cultures. the tradition itself was metaphysical and profoundly tied to the feminine principle of inspiration. and homer starts his poem that way, to keep people absolutely still.the odyssey is especially to do with women.
>>24886131>a philosopher>they>misogynisticok fella
>>24886204>the odyssey is especially to do with womenThis should be amusing. Please expand on this statement.
>>24886204>actually it’s borrowed from pre-hellenic cultures. the tradition itself was metaphysical and profoundly tied to the feminine principle of inspirationnta, and I can't speak to the truth of your point about its borrowing, but it doesn't matter where it came from: people can take things and change them for their own purposes. the Greeks thought gods presided over all aspects of human life, and music (which wasn't distinct from "poetry" as we normally understand the Iliad and other works in the Epic cycle to be) was one of them. that doesn't mean it was "about" the Muses.>the odyssey is especially to do with women.again, just because it involved women in some capacity - in some ways more meaningfully than others - doesn't mean it was "about" them. they were devices for the main character, Odysseus.
>>24886202What pussy does to a mf
>>24886204Neither the iliad nor the odyssey are about women. But alluding to an older tradition doesn't make it matriarchal. To me, the followers of petrarch are the matriarchal one (that's a bad term though), it's a modern thing. Ungreek. Unchristian. Unwestern.
>>24886209eighteenth-century scholar richard bentley remarked that the iliad was written for men and the odyssey for women. colonel mure observed the difference in the same way: 'the women engross the chief part of the small stock of common sense allotted to the community.' what bentley really meant was that in the odyssey things were looked at from a woman's point of view rather than a man's. samuel butler wrote a book on his theory that it was written in west sicily, and that nausicaa was a self-portrait. if you postulate an 8th- or 7th-century sicilian nausicaa as the authoress, no other alternative makes such sense of the textual cruces: if only because nausicaa is the one character in the story over whom real trouble has been taken, and whose princessly point of view is maintained throughout.strength is felt everywhere in the iliad, but it's the sweetness which fascinates us throughout the odyssey. rarely in the iliad does grandeur or force give way to allow domestic affection, in the odyssey the family life supplies the tissue into which is woven the thread of the poem.
>>24886211>gods presided over all aspects of human lifethis actually isn’t true. nothing, neither fate or the gods, is considered an absolute power in homer (the greeks understood the world - only death is inevitable).>they were devices for the main character, Odysseus.most characters in the odyssey serve a functional or episodic role: they either block odysseus, help him, or populate the world. but nausicaa is given a detailed inner life, careful characterisation and a sustained perspective: her first encounter with odysseus is presented almost entirely from her point of view. ‘homer’ pays attention to her behavioural realism: her family dynamics, her careful social reasoning (eg how she interacts with odysseus without scandal).no other minor character in the epic gets this level of narrative care. even penelope is only seen through the lens of odysseus’ absence.
>>24886214pre-hellenic greece was matriarchal. the further you go back, the concept of fatherhood was not understood. lines were passed matriarchally. all the oldest manmade works are sculptures of women. there is an inherent nature in our roles.
>>24886234I mean, yeah, uncivilized peoples are prone to have a matriarchal societal arrangement. That's why they've remained primitive as the west developed. Yet neither you nor I would ditch civilization to live as a savage, correct? Next you'll say western civilization and its colonialism are le evil.Also, the odyssey having one well developed female character doesn't make it matriarchal. You have failed at arguing for your point twice.
>>24886226>this actually isn’t true. nothing, neither fate or the gods, is considered an absolute power in homer (the greeks understood the world - only death is inevitable).the concept of fate in Homer is inconsistent and also a plot device; and doesn't fully represent how these concepts played into Greek life (not least in the Archaic period).>nausicaa is given a detailed inner life, careful characterisation and a sustained perspective: her first encounter with odysseus is presented almost entirely from her point of view. ‘homer’ pays attention to her behavioural realism: her family dynamics, her careful social reasoning (eg how she interacts with odysseus without scandal).I already conceded that some female characters have a more meaningful role in the story, but Nausicaa's importance is a sliver compared to Odysseus and even Telemachus. you also have Athena who is a major character, but there's a difference between a character happening to be female and her femininity being a major aspect of her involvement.
>>24886252since you mention it, i think we’d both be happier in a primitive society. but the world has changed, it’s besides the point…nausicaa is treated with a kind of careful domestic and social realism that appears NOWHERE ELSE in the poem: her embarrassment, her thoughts about marriageability, how she manages scandal, how she navigates her parents’ expectations, etc. that spike in fidelity to a young woman’s interior life is what scholars flag.
>>24886259talking about structural and symbolic importance. what matters for authorship theories isn’t screen-time, it’s where the poem suddenly becomes unusually observant, psychologically fine-grained and socially precise. nausicaa is the only non-divine character given sustained interiority, and that’s why butler saw her as the narrative key. odysseus, telemachus etc follow epic convention (eg athena is metis).
>>24886275Nausicaa is one of several characters given deep interiority: Penelope, Telemachus, Eumaeus, and Odysseus himself all receive more sustained psychological exploration than she does. Butler’s argument that this single episode reveals female authorship or a matriarchal symbolic structure selectively elevates one pastoral episode over the poem’s central psychological machinery, which lies in the Ithacan recognition scenes. prominent women in a poem about domestic restoration don’t make the Odyssey matriarchal.
>>24886186Who's this resting bitch faced roastie? Let me guess, her entire philosophy is RAWRRR WOMEN ARE EQUAL TO MENNN.
>>24886288penelope’s only seen through the lens of odysseus’ absence. her psychology is defined by waiting, not by an independent narrative arc. telemachus, eumaeis and odysseus(!) all fit epic convention. they serve the heroic arc: nostos, revenge, etc. nausicaa is an anomaly. book vi is perhaps the loveliest in the whole poem. a brief micro-novel embedded in an epic, written in a completely different key.
>>24886234They had plenty of phallic statues as well, and these statues were probably fertility trinkets anyway, hence the gross exaggerations of women's proportions and sole phalluses.Also, how do you explain the fact that fathers were seen in greece as sole parents and mothers merely as seedbeds that otherwise offered nothing to the child's blood?
>>24886335they’re disproportionately female. & the concepts of paternity arose after matrilineal memory. early societies never had that concept. there's something in the old idea of the sun being man & the moon; woman. their planetary powers are: sun for illumination; moon for enchantment.
>>24886331the idea that Nausicaa is the poem’s only psychologically rich non-divine figure is contradicted by nearly every serious Homeric analysis. Penelope’s recognition scenes (books 19 and 23) contain far more interior nuance; Telemachus has the only full coming-of-age arc in early epic; Eumaeus has a complete autobiography; Odysseus’ internal monologues and layered identities are central to the poem’s psychological themes. Butler’s reading depends on Victorian assumptions (e.g., that a man would never put his hero in an awkward position before a girl), not on Homeric poetics. book 6 is beautiful, but its tone shift doesn’t establish matriarchal symbolism or female authorship: it’s simply one of many tonal shifts in the Odyssey.
>>24886359have you read every serious homeric analysis then?>Penelope’s recognition scenes… filtered through odysseus’ absence.>Telemachus has the only full coming-of-age arc in early epicgilgamesh is actually a coming of age story. nausicaa, on the other hand, is famously the first unrequited love. the narrative voice remains conventional in the other shifts (witches, battles, divine interventions).saying butler sided with victorian ideas is probably the biggest misstep that was possible for you to make if you actually know samuel butler.
>>24886415>have you read every serious homeric analysis then?1. I said "nearly", 2. obviously I don't literally mean I've read virtually all Homeric analyses that've been written.>… filtered through odysseus’ absence.>filteredmeaning what, precisely? Penelope receives direct narrator-driven psychological development in books 4, 18, 19, and 23: her dreams, anxieties, strategies, recognitions, suspicions, and internal debates.>gilgamesh is actually a coming of age storywhat Gilgamesh does or doesn’t do has no bearing on Greek epic tradition. within Greek epic, Telemachus is universally understood as the earliest explicit Bildungsroman-type figure: his arc is structurally integrated into the Odyssey. comparing genres across civilizations doesn’t invalidate the point; it’s just a category error.>nausicaa, on the other hand, is famously the first unrequited lovedepends on what all you think qualifies, but I think most people would agree Calypso's lore much more closely fits any notion of "unrequited love" than that of Nausicaa>the narrative voice remains conventional in the other shifts (witches, battles, divine interventions).the Odyssey shifts registers constantly: divine councils, embedded autobiography, folktale episodes, tragic katabasis, domestic drama, political restoration, etc. book 6 is lovely, but not uniquely unconventional.>saying butler sided with victorian ideas is probably the biggest misstep that was possible for you to make if you actually know samuel butler.Butler was writing in the 19th century and operated with explicitly Victorian gender essentialism: the assumption that male and female “natures” differ so strongly that a man “could not” have written certain scenes. his female-authorship theory depends on these essentialist premises. Butler was intellectually iconoclastic in many ways, but his female-authorship theory nevertheless depends on Victorian gender essentialism
>>24886521I guess I’ll rebut point by point as well.>I said "nearly"gottem. Actually, I was just pointing out it’s a stupid thing to invoke. Especially seeing as you’re yet to name one. Contributes nothing.On Penelope vs. Nausicaa: Penelope’s interiority is derivative; she thinks and plans only because of Odysseus. Nausicaa’s interiority exists autonomously, observing the world and anticipating social consequences from her own socially realistic perspective. Calypso’s desire is likewise externally framed.>within Greek epicIn my defence, what you said was>Telemachus has the only full coming-of-age arc in early epic& Greek epic doesn’t emerge ex nihilo. Mycenaean court epics must have hadmuch in common with Gilgamesh, the Enuma Elish, the Akkadian Creation epic, etc.The Greeks epic grows out of that Mesopotamian mythic environment.>universally understoodYou’re putting things too strongly again. VI is the only socially precise, psychologically rich ep outside the epic heroic network. Aristarchus called it λεπτόν.The Butler jibe was worth mentioning. He was, pace Victorian orthodoxy, an infamous iconoclast. But seriously though, the argument about Nausicaa is based on careful textual observation, not on Victorian moral prudery. Can you picture the Homer who wrote the Iliad writing such a scene? His ‘gender essentialism’ is analytical, not prescriptive. He arrived at his conclusion while he was translating the poem, going only off the text, rereading it for the first time in years with fresh eyes. Also, no Victorian mainstream critic endorsed his view. It wasn’t until the 20th century when Prof L.G. Pocock substantiated his contention that Odyssean geography defies analysis unless a West Sicilian who had never visited Ithaca or mainland Greece cooked it up from local features. At the same time, I don’t feel pressured to argue on SB’s behalf when he’s written his own perfectly good book on it.
>>24886908>Penelope’s interiority is derivative; she thinks and plans only because of Odysseus. Nausicaa’s interiority exists autonomously, observing the world and anticipating social consequences from her own socially realistic perspective.you're conflating narrative circumstance with psychological agency. that Penelope's situation revolves around Odysseus doesn't make her actions any less autonomous: her weaving strategy, her dream interpretations, her decisions about the bow contest, her testing of the stranger all demonstrate independent judgement and deliberation. Nausicaa's thoughts are also substantially about men and marriage (imagining a husband, worry about reputation), so the contrast being drawn is exaggerated. your argument privileges detached social observation over invested personal deliberation as "true" autonomy, which is itself a questionable value judgement. they both think, feel, and strategize independently, Penelope simply does so under existential pressure.>& Greek epic doesn’t emerge ex nihilo. Mycenaean court epics must have had much in common with Gilgamesh, the Enuma Elish, the Akkadian Creation epic, etc.The Greeks epic grows out of that Mesopotamian mythic environment.this is speculative and deflects from the actual point. we have no surviving Mycenaean epic poetry, so this is conjecture. and while the Odyssey didn't come about from nowhere, it's moving the goalpost: no one was talking about myth generally, but the Odyssey and Greek epic tradition. you can not appreciate that distinction, but to bring up Gilgamesh as if that invalidates my point about Telemachus is simply a strawman.>VI is the only socially precise, psychologically rich ep outside the epic heroic network.>the epic heroic networkI'm not entirely sure what you even mean by that, but even granting this point (which I don't), nothing about that inherently requires female authorship unless you already accept the gender essentialism. variation in register, genre, and psychological texture is normal for oral epic, and the Odyssey has multiple "non-heroic" and psychologically nuanced scenes.>Can you picture the Homer who wrote the Iliad writing such a scene?that itself is an essentialist assumption, assuming a single author couldn't depict both brutal warfare and delicate psychology. whether the essentialism is "analytical" or "prescriptive" doesn't matter; the conclusion still rests on Victorian assumptions about gendered artistic capabilities.>At the same time, I don’t feel pressured to argue on SB’s behalf when he’s written his own perfectly good book on it.then why continue?
>>24886131The best way to tell if a philosopher is serious is if they are misanthropic.* FTFY
>>24886968>this is speculativeMythology is speculative, it’s a field that's fundamentally about pattern recognition across cultures. Penelope’s agency is constrained by epic necessity - her cleverness is heroic-strategic, tied to Odysseus’ plot. She’d sew her web and unpick the stitches at night. It’s a narrative device to hold off the suitors. Nausicaa’s agency, by contrast, is not plot-driven but observational.>that itself is an essentialist assumption, assuming a single author couldn't depict both brutal warfare and delicate psychology.I’d never assume that. Astyanax being frightened by his dad's helmet (which Homer had kept referring to) - very touching.It’s more about the obvious truth that woman understands woman better than she does man (and so does a man, man). And the text itself contains small, telling mistakes that a young woman might easily make and a man almost never would: wind whistling over waves, a lamb surviving on two pulls of milk, a ship with rudders at both ends, dry timber being cut from a living tree, a hawk tearing prey while still on the wing.>then why continue?the goodness of my heart.
>>24887129
>>24886131Sure women are bad, but why do I get so happy when they speak to me though? Think of the seconds where you get to lock eyes with a cute girl, and meanwhile, your senses apprehend the contrast of her pale skin and dark eyelashes and hair, and having finished the conversation, you wonder why you even noticed those details. Do you get out, saying "yeah women are shit" even though you pay so much attention to them?
>>24887539It's your visceral instincts compelling you to breed. After the sperm leaves your urethra, you get what is commonly known as post-nut clarity.Holy shit, this woman who I was so obsessed with is actually really boring and not very intelligent either. Her body makes my penis tingle, but nothing she says or does contains an ounce of intellectual merit.Maybe I'll sublimate my monkey desires into writing meaningful books.
Why should I be misogynistic when pussy feels so good?
>>24887573>why should I stop being morbidly obese when food tastes so good
>>24887573You can enjoy both.
>>24887573Feminism ruined sex and relationships
>>24887285>misanthropy>redditYou're confusing it with optimism, I suppose.
>>24887539>>24887573Hylic subhumans. One of my power fantasies include sending disposable trash such as yourselves to concentration camps.
>>24887805One of my power fantasies involves giving you an orbital lobotomy so you are incapable of escaping the material prison in this life.
>early societies never had that concept.Which is why they were all miserable shitholes ruled by decaying old women. We can't conceive how miserable it was because the retards had no written recordsThe greeks excluded women from all public and intellectual life for good reason>there's something in the old idea of the sun being man & the moon; woman. their planetary powers are: sun for illumination; moon for enchantment.And in the alchemical process, the solar has to subdue and control the lunarEsoterism is misogynistic
in greek myth, however, the sun yields precedence to the moon - which inspires the greater superstitious fear, does not grow dimmer as the year wanes, and is credited with the power to grant or deny water to the fields.
>>24887805>Hylic>Because I can sense metaphysical energy intrinsic to womenSo you make the case women aren't ensouled? For your half-minded schizo worldview it might as well be, since you're only capable of seeing the Female as a body only.
>>24887977What you sense is no metaphysical energy, but the drive toward reproduction and the pleasure that accompanies it. To deny and transcend matter entails asceticism, which in turn entails, among other things, lust denial. And I want to hear no renaissance-esque degenerate gibberish about how your apish pull toward women consists in a draw toward beauty, or toward love. No, you and your 15th century untraditional friends have no idea what disinterested beauty is, for you haven't begun to overcome evolutionary traits wired into you.Your metaphysics aren't built on the truth, but on false judgement. Read Theaetetus.
another incels vs white knights (incels in denial?) thread.. sweet
>>24888067You're a simp that gets to lick the pussy of Chad's fleshlight once a year. >N-n-nooo IM CHADFalse. Chad looks at this thread, says based and identifies with the "incel" side.
>>24886131Men can pretend to be airheaded women but women cannot pretend to be rational men. Not well anyway.
>>24888067live by the blade, die by the blade. may the best internet personality win.
