I hate this word so much.
>word?
>>24886653He’s autistic.
O_O
>>24886653https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/o
>>24886655yes, like that
>>24886655>>24886658obviously ever letter has its own associated noun, and 'o' can be a vocative marker, but there's so little in the OP it's not obvious they're simply an ESL and mixed up 'word' and 'letter'.
>>24886659kys fag
>>24886655What retard translated thea as o muse?
>>24886680why is that a retarded translation?
>>24886688Muse is a different word than goddess. Obviously it's a muse but Homer doesn't use the word muse and says goddess.
>>24886694>Obviously it's a musethat's why it's not retarded. it's retarded to translate everything as literal as possible and miss important nuance in the process - especially with a language like Greek which is very different than English, and especially with metrical poetry which works within certain quantitative limitations.
>>24886646Heh
>>24886646the story of O?IYKYK
>>24886646My favorite letter is Z. Check my new pro-SMO Z hat.
>>24886711Muses today aren't even goddesses, but back then they were. I think goddess would be more nuanced to today's understanding of those words.
>>24886646you must REALLY hate the Quran then
>>24886737>Muses today aren't even goddessesI'm not even sure what that means. 'muse' in the 21st century has multiple meanings, sure, but one of them is the intended meaning of θεά as used in the opening line. even taking your point at face-value, the current meaning doesn't dictate the meaning in the poem, which is what matters. 'goddess' is much more generic.
>>24886724That's an S.
>>24886755>'muse' in the 21st century has multiple meanings, sureThat's the issue I mean. Muse is ambiguous today. When the Greek used the word, it was clear to them that they meant a literal goddess who really existed. Using goddess wouldn't be more generic than muse. It tells us that Homer is referring to a divine being. That's more specific than the many meanings of muse today.
>>24886782It’s this Z hat but taken in a mirror (I wanted the one with the tricolor on it but it was out of stock).https://kula-tactical.com/russia-z-cap
>>24886800having multiple definitions isn't the same thing as being generic. 'goddess' is generic because it has many sub-categories; 'muse' doesn't, certainly not as many as 'goddess'. even for the naive reader who knows nothing about Greek mythology, 'muse' would still signify something more specific than 'goddess', an explicit implication that they inspire the narrator in some way. you get that from the rest of the context as well, but you don't get that from 'goddess'. that's also what commentaries are for, which you normally get in a translation of the Iliad.
>>24886829But he uses the word goddess here, not muse. Unless you think for Homer goddess and muse are synonymous. I'm guessing Homer was aware that more goddesses exist besides muses, so it seems his intention here is not using the word that is specific there about it being a muse goddess.
>>24886849not to get too deep into the weeds, but there probably wasn't even a "Homer", rather the poem was created and revised over centuries and canonized by an individual in the Archaic period in writing. maybe you already knew that and were just speaking loosely, I just clarify that point to point to say that whoever canonized the Iliad (which does not seem to be the same author as the Odyssey, based on the language) in general was perhaps just adhering to traditional, rather than intention.anyways, I'm not implying that the poem treats θεά and Μοῦσα the same necessarily. my last post was specifically talking about the English terms 'Muse' and "goddess'. in the first line obviously the implication is a Muse, as their main characteristic is musical inspiration. it's also worth remembering that, again, the poem is working within metrical restraints. θεά has two syllables and are quantitatively short and long, respectively; Μοῦσα has two syllables but is the other way around (long short): the meter wouldn't work if you were to replace them. there are various instances, for example, where verbose or metaphorical terms are used when more specific ones could be used instead, but wouldn't fit the meter. sure you could say "well then just switch the words around", but that would necessarily affect the syntax of the surrounding lines and what you could and couldn't say to express the desired ideas.
>>24886849But the goddess he's referring to is obviously supposed to be Calliope, the goddess of epic poetry and one of the eight muses. Yes, the word generically means 'goddess', but in this case 'muse' is both equally correct and fits the loose meter of the translation better than 'goddess' would have. One must consider the aesthetics of words (especially in cases like this where it doesn't really compromise the meaning at all unless you're mega autistic about it) as well as their function when attempting to translate poetry
>>24886884>>24886897I get it, I was being hyperbolic earlier for fun when I called it retarded. I just personally don't like the word muse because my mind associates it with a stereotypical pretentious artist invoking a "muse." I guess that's just my problem.
>>24886917But the reason artists stereotypically invoke a figurative muse is because they're emulating people who literally invoked a muse in the past. It's absurd to blame this translation for thousands of years of people copying the thing they're translating
>>24886923It's fine later in the Iliad and in the Odyssey because it feels authentic that it's a literal translation, but since I know the literal translation is goddess in the beginning it feels inauthentic for some reason.
What is thorn
>>24886646All the best writers use it. (OK, perhaps not *all*. Emily Dickinson might not, now I think about it. But almost all.)Here's half a dozen to be going on with.O Love, come now, this land turns evil slowly.— Ezra Pound, ‘The Needle’O Simon Magus! O ye consciencelessDisciples who procure the bride that’s boundTo God alone, and through rapaciousnessDespoil for gold and silver! — Let it sound,Unhappy souls, the trumpet of your doom:Because in this third valley you are found.— Dante Alighieri, ‘Inferno’ (Yes, it’s translated, but the original uses ‘O’ just the same.)The train leaves a line of breath.O slowHorse the color of rust,Hooves, dolorous bells —All morning theMorning has been blackening,A flower left out.— Sylvia Plath, ‘Sheep In Fog’O how shall summers honey breath hold out,Against the wrackful siege of batt’ring days,When rocks impregnable are not so stout,Nor gates of steel so strong, but time decays?— William Shakespeare, Sonnet 65O wrangling schools that search what fireShall burn this world, had none the witUnto this knowledge to aspire:That this her fever might be it?— John Donne, ‘The Fever’O keep his bones away from the common cart,The morning is flying on the wings of his ageAnd a hundred storks perch on the sun’s right hand.— Dylan Thomas, ‘Among Those Killed In The Dawn Raid Was A Man Aged A Hundred’
>>24886646>OP hates emotive expressionsO heavens, save us from soulless bugmen!
>>24886646Then at last, moving slowly, as if walking in a dream, a woman in a robe of threaded silver came gliding from the hall. Her smooth long hair was as red as fire and soft as the ruddy sheen on dragon’s gold. Her face was gentle, mysteriously calm. The night became more still.“I offer you my sister,” the young king said. “Let her name from now on be Wealtheow, or holy servant of common good.”I leered in the rattling darkness of my tree. The name was ridiculous.“Pompous, pompous ass!” I hissed. But she was beautiful and she surrendered herself with the dignity of a sacrificial virgin. My chest was full of pain, my eyes smarted, and I was afraid — O monstrous trick against reason — I was afraid I was about to sob. I wanted to smash things, bring down the night with my howl of rage. But I kept still. She was beautiful, as innocent as dawn on winter hills. She tore me apart as once the Shaper’s song had done. As if for my benefit, as if in vicious scorn of me, children came from the meadhall and ran down to her, weeping, to snatch at her hands and dress.“Stop it!” I whispered. “Stupid!”She did not look at them, merely touched their heads. “Be still,” she said — hardly more than a whisper, but it carried across the crowd. They were still, as if her voice were magic. I clenched my teeth, tears streaming from my eyes. She was like a child, her sweet face paler than the moon. She looked up at Hrothgar’s beard, not his eyes, afraid of him. “My lord,” she said.O woe! O wretched violation of sense!I could see myself leaping from my high tree and running on all fours through the crowd to her, howling, whimpering, throwing myself down, drooling and groveling at her small, fur-booted feet. “Mercy!” I would howl. “Aargh! Burble!” I clamped my palms over my eyes and struggled not to laugh.— John Gardner, ‘Grendel’
>>24886724look'in good
