Historically Christianity has condemned those who commit suicide as grave sinners. The Catholic and Orthodox church refused to bury or say prayers for suicides up until very recently and even now they rarely do. Due to the Augustinian logic in particular it is felt that suicide is murder and because there is no oppurtunity to repent the person dies in a state of mortal sin. Along with this because the person dies without repent they have blasphemed the Holy Spirit meaning there sin is unforgivable and therefore they must go to Hell according to the logic.Christians, how do you defend this?
>>24892116Defend what? The punishment of sins? Or the notion that suicide is a sin?
>>24892122Defend not only the lack of empathy for suicides but to hold them up as the worst of the worst by saying they are pretty much the only people guaranteed to go to Hell. A child rapist has a better shot at eternal life than a suicide in the Christian framework
>>24892125>get raped by pedo priest>kill yourself from the trauma>go to hell while he goes to heaven because he repented
>>24892129So grateful I left this ugly jewish death cult behind
>>24892125It's, as you stated, more so by the nature of the suicide rather than any weight it has. You can't repent for it so you immediatly go to hell.It's also important to state that life is a gift by God no matter how shitty it is and that God's clock will decide when you have to stop suffering and go. Hell is the abscence of God it's not a punishment but a choice you make out of taking God out of your life and living in a godless lifestyle. When you deny God's gift and spit on Him for it you are basically denying Him as a whole out of your life and he will be respectful enough to let you go into an afterlife where he won't be there to interfere
>>24892134>it's not a punishment but a choicemodern cope
>>24892134Fuck you. Hope you get raped by a pack of Hebrews
>>24892125I'm still not totally sure what we're supposed to be defending. A rapist who truly repents is still punished in traditional Christianity, for they will face the refiner's fire of purgation.Christianity is not a monolith either. Dante includes Cato the Younger, a Pagan suicide, as the gatekeeper of the shores of Mount Purgatory (and so presumably among those who will eventually be saved) because his act was committed from noble sentiment for instance. So too, there are a number of saints of the highest level of pedigree who believed that the damned would eventually be turned to repentance, although they would first suffer Hell and would only be reconciled through Christ (making ancient and medieval universalism quite different from modern universalism, with its ethos of liberal pluralism). For example, there is Saint Isaac of Nineveh, Saint Gregory of Nyssa, and even Saint Jerome held to such a position at one point. But this is a minority position to be sure (others assumed the total annihilation of the damned).At any rate, the more core belief of the faith has always been that God is a just judge. We should not presume to know his judgement. Dante makes this point by having one of Virgil's pagan heros in Paradise (through a vision of Christ), while Virgil himself returns to Limbo precisely to reflect the hopelessness of the poets own philosophy (as best represented in the Aeneid and the murder of Turnus rather than the full exemplification of pietas).So, is the idea that suicide ought not be punished? That rapists ought not be offered mercy? That suicides ought be offered mercy? If the question is the latter, I do not think this has ever had a definitive answer, especially since some instances of martyrdom fall close to suicide (Socrates, for instance, chooses to drink the hemlock, but for just reasons). People also commit suicide for extremely selfish and sinful reasons however.
>>24892173>extremely selfish and sinful reasonsFor instance?>A rapist who truly repents is still punished in traditional Christianity, for they will face the refiner's fire of purgation.To be fair so will babies
>>24892138No, the Cross as primarily a means of juridical satisfaction, to appease God's wrath, is the modern view. Penal substitution is modern. The Anselmian Catholic view is a step halfway towards this, but is itself a later innovation. The Patristic understanding is that Christ is ransoming us from sin and death, not from God the Father (and to be fair, particularly since the 20th century, a lot of Catholic theologians have moved back in this direction). That view dominates the ancient texts and has remained the dominant view in Eastern and Oriental churches. Christ is a sacrifice who heals our nature and restores the possibility of communion. (To be fair, Anslem can be read more in this direction, as Bishop Barron does. It was more the modern period that saw Anslem warped into essentially just penal substitution , unfortunately.
>>24892173>the more core belief of the faith has always been that God is a just judgeThis is irrelevant in many ways as the Church's attitude has been that suicides are disgraceful, deserve no sympathy and their families probably suffered eternal shame, judgement and condemnation in the eyes of the community as that was what they were told to think.Also the problem with the doctrine of Hell and the afterlife in general is that it is massively contradictory. Plenty of things Christ states are contradicted or entirely in Revelation so trying to work out a coherent narrative is impossible
>>24892180For instance, provided Epstein killed himself, he did so to spare himself the shame of being exposed for his crimes. I also know someone who killed themselves essentially just to punish his wife. Other people essentially commit suicide through reckless drug abuse, the feeding of their own passions and appetites at the expense of all else.>babiesThe Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood have been seen as sound theology since the Patristic period.
>>24892171I hope you find God in your lif>>24892130e and that you get to go Heaven!! Jesus loves you and wants you saved!!
>>24892188>Core doctrines of the faith are irrelevant because real Christians must defend my vague pointing towards Medieval custom.In Russia they also buried the unconfessed dead in mass graves the same way, or travelers whose status was unknown. But the theologians and monks often decried this as degenerate superstition. Who exactly are we supposed to listen to here?
>>24892192>reckless drug abuseThe free will is severely impaired here.
>>24892192>Other people essentially commit suicide through reckless drug abuse, the feeding of their own passions and appetites at the expense of all else.This shows that Christians live in a total moralistic judgemental fantasy. You don't know shit about addiction, the reasons why people do it and the realities of it. As someone who has struggled with addiction, seen friends be overcome and have people I know die because of it I can tell you it's got jack shit to do with feeding "passions". All the people I know who are addicts have either trauma inside them that they cannot contain and have to numb with whatever they choose or have a deep sadness running through them that they feel they only escape when they turn to the thing they feel gives some kind of a release.You don't know what you are talking about and how dare you judge people who lives you can't even imagine surviving
>>24892198>A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. (Matthew 7:18)This is all I'll say
>>24892203The Bible is also explicit in many places about the risk of false teachings and false converts.
>>24892211Are you implying the Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant Churches are inauthentic and preach false doctrine? Because all three believed this stuff until less than 100 years ago
>>24892213No, they're implying that if you were truly saved you wouldn't kill yourself..But I don't find that a compelling argument. It's an interesting thing to think about, and it's true most churches were or still are content to condemn a soul to hell if they died by suicide.
>>24892226Forget their view, what is your view? And if it completely contradicts the view of mainstream churches what does that in itself imply?
What if I die protecting someone?I don't deliberately kill myself, but I put myself in a situation I know will kill me.
>>24892235I haven't ever given it much thought, at least not in regards to salvation, but my natural inclination is to regard it as sinful, but I'm a Calvinist so I assume in my tradition it wouldn't be seen as causing you to lose your salvation, but rather proof you were never saved at all.It's obviously cruel and "unfair" from a secular standpoint, but belief in theological concepts like total depravity and original sin make it a more complex issue than it would initially appear. I would hope that suicide cases don't default to hell, but who knows.. There's a lot of struggle not only with doubt, but with reconciling divine justice with our own human morality. That's pretty normal for us Christians, as far as I can tell. I get why a nonbeliever would not understand this, or see it as outrageous and view it as mental gymnastics or something.
>>24892255Also I thought about it a bit and I think there's more weight to their argument than I initially gave credit for.
>>24892130I bet you're fine with atheists letting violent felons out of jail 10 times until they kill someone though
>>24892129>I deserve more because I worked moreNot how it works in earthly life, why would it be in after life?
>>24892263What the fuck are you talking about, you psychotic?
>>24892116They are just mad that someone escaped their bullshit. And they suspend the spiritual angler fish lure light that is the blessing of Jesus Christ and they let the soul escape. If they catch it, harvest it and recycle it back to life, it may still be a bad seed that gets others to escape too in next reincarnation.
>>24892116Defend it from what? You've laid out the argument quite well.
>>24892226Churches don't "condemn" anyone to Hell, sin does.>>24892213No, as I pointed out, there is far more nuance on the topics than you suggest.Now to ask to question you seem to be unwilling to answer again, is your contention that:>Suicide is not sinful.Or>That suicide is sinful, but God ought somehow undo the sin so that a person who chooses to sin somehow avoids the consequences of sin, or else make it impossible for people to sin.I'd maintain they the second option essentially requires that God must replace sinners with new, non-sinful "versions" of themselves or else remove the possibility of freedom from them. Estrangement from God is an intrinsic and essential consequence of sin, so if suicide is sinful, I don't see how it can make sense to demand that God somehow allow sin but also somehow make it not sin, such that the sinner is in communion with God in their sins.
>>24892254Martyrs who "chose" death have been venerated from the begining. Christ points out to Saint Peter that he could summon legions of angles to save himself at any time, and he forces the soldiers sent to capture him to their knees with a word, but chooses to offer himself as a sacrifice. This is not the same thing. If you ignore the reasons why suicide was considered sinful, you end up with incoherence that doesn't reflect any real historical theological position.
>>24892378I don't even think in terms such as "sinful" because the concept of sin is inherently a Jewish concept loaded with all kinds of nasty undercurrents. But if I'm playing by your rules I would say that to me suicide is not sinful because if you knew anything about what it means to be suicidal you would realise that your understanding of it is completely warped beyond all comprehension
>>24892391So, isn't your objection really to the notion of sin itself then?Second, what about "being suicidal" makes it a state that is opposed to sin? All you've asserted is that it is so and that anyone who disagrees is woefully ignorant, but you haven't explained this at all.
>>24892378Condemn as in hold the belief that suicide is such grave sin anyone who kills themselves is destined for hell
>>24892391NTA but I tried double suicide twice and I still agree that it's agains't god and ultimately an attitude that's not aligned with his will whatsoever for reasons previously stated by other anons in this thread. If you don't appreciate that god gave you life than you don't want him which means you're going to hell because that's the only place he's not in. It's that simple. Hell suicide is somewhat demonically coded too specially the ones done in more abrupt moments of neurosis
>>24892129Guilty of getting sodomized?
>>24892116Original Christians did this. State (Roman imperial) revoked their rights as they are property of the state and must get back to work. Catholicism is not Christianity.
>>24892395>So, isn't your objection really to the notion of sin itself then?Well the idea of sin is separate from the idea of evil in my estimation. For example, torture is evil but masturbation isn't. If someone masturbates to something in their imagination and then moves on with their life, forgetting the event entirely then nothing bad or harmful actually happened. It would under the Judeo-Christian framework be considered a sin. In it's raw essence a sin is an act that is in opposition to God's will. So for example building a shed on the Sabbath is a sin not because what you did was evil or harmful but because it goes against God's will. What I've realised is the notion of sin was really invented by Jews to both differentiate and denigrate non-Jews. Furthermore it was a highly useful tool for control as if someone did something contrary to the societal rules they would be branded as a sinner and therefore deserving of whatever punishment would be meted out. It's a very Jewish concept that has even more ugly implications when brought into the Pauline and Augustinian framework of original sin.>Second, what about "being suicidal" makes it a state that is opposed to sin? Being suicidal is an incredibly painful and desperate state of mind and the person often hopes that there was some other way out but they can no longer see any other alternative and feel that their choice in the matter is removed. In essence, "I don't want to die but I am no longer able to live." This is why so many suicides leave notes explaining, apologising and asking forgiveness for their actions because they know that is a terrible thing but they ultimately feel like they have no choice. I am speaking from experience here.So is it against God's will under the idea of sin? Sure you could say so. I wouldn't think of it in those terms but you do. But to take it further to vilify the person suffering and not only that but to condemn them to eternal torture is what I actually call evil.>>24892402As someone who has struggled with suicidal feelings and severe mental illness since they were 12 years old I can tell you friend that religion and God will not help. Religion will only warp your mind and God will not be there when you really need him
>>24892405Yeah
>>24892192>through reckless drug abuse, the feeding of their own passions and appetites at the expense of all else.Yikes, kek. Learn about drug addiction. Its not simply 'muh passions'.
>>24892444I was suicidal since childhood and have severe mental illness. It helped me tremendously.
>>24892466Do you suffer from a psychotic illness?
>>24892485Yes
>>24892491I was also a homeless fentanyl addict for the better part of a decade.
>>24892491Thought so. Good luck out there
>>24892496lol, you too
>>24892444>As someone who has struggled with suicidal feelings and severe mental illness since they were 12 years old I can tell you friend that religion and God will not help. Religion will only warp your mind and God will not be there when you really need himEvery time I go back to my neurotic hyper christian phase suddenly everything gets good and life starts running on autopilot but it gets really dull for my head and I immediatly reinstall hinge and start shooting myself in the foot again over and over until im desperate enough to come back. And I have been suicidal since childhood too>>24892493My dad killed himself when I was 8 and I got to see his body decay with a shotgun load to his face. I was sexually abused by my uncle and my aunt. My ex cut my finger off and threatened to kill me and told me is still willing to kill me even if theyre in prison. Let's not get into piss empathy competitions
>>24892444Ok, this helps. You have an extremely modern notion of both evil and sin as comprising some sort of sui generis "moral bad." This is totally alien to traditional Christian though. It is a creation of the Reformation (really medieval nominalism and voluntarism before that). To think of sin as primarily some violation of an inscrutable divine will, as totally removed from what is good or bad for man, is to simply misunderstand traditional Christian notions of sin. I would go as far as to say it is a heresy.But note that this notion of sin, vice, evil, etc. now dominates even secular and athiest moral discourse. This is exactly Alasdair MacIntyre's point in After Virtue, this disconnect makes the entire notion of morality incoherent (and indeed this tradition has tended to bottom out in emotivism or moral nihilism).Whereas, if you look to pre-modern texts you will see that illness is called an "evil," etc.So, one problem here is that you are wildly outside the original context of these beliefs. No doubt, they did lurch along in zombie form in Protestantism for a while, but they largely abandoned them eventually because they no longer make any sense.
