Forget Deneen's Why Liberalism Failed, this is the better debunking of liberalism.
>>24939671Go on then. Debunk liberalism.
>>24939671>Sick of submitting to the almighty will of the State?>Try submitting to the almighty will of the "local community" instead.Opinion discarded.
>>24939864>Nooooo. Direct democracy could lead to majority rule! That would infringe on the individual's rights>Best stick with minority rule so that EVERYONE'S rights are infringed>Worked all these millennia so far. Stick with what ya know.Would rather go with direct democracy honestly.Haven'r read the books, just discarding your opinion.
>>24939671>why democracy failed!>why Rome failed!>why dinosaurs failed!>why RNA world failed!>why stage coaches failed!>why my local McDonald’s failed>why Tuesday they 9th of December 2025 failed! (after just 24 hours! :o :o)Social media algorithm brained retards belong upside down nailed to a cross.
>>24940133- Suppressed by centralized power bases- Turkish technology beat their atrophied and calcified social structures.- A comit they say.- Wat¿- People can still use horse drawn carriages- Shittier food, higher prices. - –
>>24940101>Thinks individual rights are just rights given to a select few.>Thinks majority rule means that more people get rights.>Fundamentally misunderstands the very concept of individual rights.Try reading, faggot.
>>24940187>Thinks individual rights are just rights given to a select few.No, they bought.>Thinks majority rule means that more people get rights.Direct democracy works on smaller community level scale. All being welcome, all given a chance to air their opinions, all coming to consensus with their friends, family and neighbors. The uninterested in the community is free to sit it all out, live with the majority's direction or to go find another place to live, alone? Well, the individual never lives in a vacuum, but he can go rough it if he likes. More people take responsibility and get back a higher quality of life.>Fundamentally misunderstands the very concept of individual rights.I'll give you the floor for this one. What is your concept of individual rights?
>>24940187>>24939671Nah, we Orthodox/Catholic confessional states now.
Why did /lit/ fail?
Do Zoomers really hate liberalism or is it just a vocal minority? This sort of hate for liberalism itself was unthinkable not that long ago.
>>24940273>direct democracy worksStopped reading right there.
>>24940294I think a lot of has to with hatred of the free market and the fact that kind of society doesn't bring about effective justice.
>>24940101If you already know how to get things done why don't you just do it instead of "voting" for someone else to do it? Why should anyone listen to your "vote" or input about anything? Your post is so concerned with pushing your unreasoned, easily manipulated whims on others that you actuall dismiss individual rights as if that isn't the one fucking thing you should want if you weren't an incompetent crypto-authoritarian.
>>24940319>Muh rights What does this amount to today? The right to be indoctrinated at a prison-like state school as a future "worker/consumer" for 12 years while being positively formed in and addicted to all manner of vice? The freedom to be bombarded with advertising, hardcore porn, unhealthy garbage food designed to make you eat to obesity, and the endless repetition of the lesson that "freedom is freedom to consume" and "status and wealth are everything?"Freedom to be what? Obese? A "consumer?" To mechanistically grind to make others rich while cranking the remaining hours of your life with consumption and the chasing of appetites? The freedom to have an instrumental, contractual marriage?What about the freedom to be formed in faith and virtue? What about the freedom to live in a strong, high trust, pious polis? What about the freedom to experience reality? To experience nature without it being raped for resources to further even more consumption?Liberal freedom seems to be more "freedom from reality" than anything else. Freedom to degenerate. Freedom to be a slave to the appetites, passions, ignorance, and circumstance.
>>24940288/pol/ flooded it.I was there.
>>24940298>literary board>I will not read any further.So leave. >>24940319Brilliant point. How often would a fully functioning community even need to meet or vote on anything? After a learning curve, not much at all. >Your post is so concerned with pushing your unreasoned, easily manipulated whims on>Whaaa. You keep trying to suggest a better way of life! STAHP! my tummy horts! There are no individuals dismissed in a Direct Democracy. >crypto-authoritarianism!I don't suggest using money as it would bring a state back into existence ;-)
>>24939679It debunks itself. Look at what it's doing to its own citizenry. It's the ideology of selling yourself out and eroding all sense of values for a quick buck.
>>24940406>/pol/ flooded /leftypol/ lightoh no what a loss hahah
>>24940398>Freedom to be what?To for example form your own fucking "communities" where you can implement all your brilliant ideas about how to build a utopia based on Disney movies >>24940426If your system doesn't let you do that then it's not fucking liberal no matter how many times you say it is.
>>24940288the mods are fags
>>24940525>Ha, you see, if you dogmatically embrace the presuppositions of liberalism then you don't need virtue or formation to be free. Everyone just is free, because they are a choosing subject. We just declare it as true. Hence, you can just go make whatever community you want so long as you don't offend our totalitarian state (which is really here for your freedom remember). All it takes to be free is to choose it and to be able to consume and do as you please!>Also, nevermind all the ecological disasters liberalism and cosumerism are going to force you to endure, nor the fact that we will tax you for our indoctrination schools first and only then can you begin putting your resources towards your own idea of education, or the fact that we have an extremely long history of letting business interests annex any land or community that is made valuable. Afterall, being freed from culture, religion, and community actually makes you more free! You can be a perfectly atomized consumer that way, unencumbered by anything but self-interest. The perfect citizen.
>>24940575What the fuck is wrong with your brain?
>>24940147>Turkish technologykek
>>24940294It depends what you actually mean by liberalism, and someone like John Gray makes a convincing case for some classical form of it, but I think the term is conflated with the political forces at work in the disintegration of the West. Both the excesses of the market and the stupidity of wokeism could roughly be attributed to liberalism. In the UK some shitskin who came in a boat and murdered or raped can't be deported because of muh "human rights". In Belgium al-Qaeda member was set free because of muh "human rights". "Trans rights are human rights." Rights have become a joke.
>>24940965The cannons that were able to take down their walls.
>>24941000Trips of Truth.The move that needs to happen against this, which no one has made publicly yet, is to say that rights simply aren't real. Or, rather: that rights are nothing more than a creation of the State, and they can be taken away by the State just as much as they are given out.There are no "God-given rights." God gives no rights. There are no "inalienable rights," the Declaration of Independence is a fantasy of proclamations with no more weight than air. The State creates rights, the State gives rights, and the State can deprive rights and take them away at whim.This would basically be a shotgun blast to the chest of the entire Liberal project. At the very least I can imagine it mortally wounding the United States as we know it. I keep waiting for somebody to get up on CNN and MSNBC and publicly say it, voice it out loud deliberately to insert it into The Discourse. It would be a very powerful weapon and I think it would do real damage.
>>24941010> cannons> turkishNot sure if taqiya or genuine stupidity
>>24941072>God gives no rightsYes, because you know him personally....right.
>>24940615
>>24940426Missed the point. When I said "stopped reading" I mean I only read worthwhile things. Your post is not on the level of Poe, Melville, or Shakespeare. Fuck off.
>>24941075You're an autistic moron.
>>24939671Without liberalism, 4chan would not even exist as a website for edgelords to constantly try and debunk it.Cope and seethe but you know this is true. Liberalism is literally the only ideology that will let people piss on it, shit on it, and throw it in the garbage all in the name of free speech. All other ideologies will violently oppress you if you try to do this. It’s basically the white people of political philosophy.
>>24940398>The freedom to be bombarded with advertising, hardcore porn, unhealthy garbage food designed to make you eat to obesity, and the endless repetition of the lesson that "freedom is freedom to consume" and "status and wealth are everything?"Right, but the same thing could be said about organized religion, staple foods, missionary sex, fitness standards, iconography, etc and i say this as a man of faith. Both what you described and what I described are different types of "social imaginaries" that thinkers like Charles Taylor and Jurgen Habermas speak of. Pluralistic societies are preferable as long as they can exist in their own independent "lifeworlds". Just like modernism you trying to force (I'm assuming here) your own lifeworld against this one and want to force society to consent to yours just like modernity wants you to conform to theirs. Two wrongs don't make a right.
>>24941395The point is, they can't coexist. Liberal Modernity can't coexist with Christendom. They are two lifeworlds that cannot successfully inhabit the same space. The two are at cross-purposes and a war between them is inevitable.Honestly, the present state of affairs is basically that Christendom has woken up to the fact that Liberalism has waged war on it for the better part of at least 80 years, if not 400 years, and Christendom has basically just sat there and taken it, and taken loss after loss, retreat after retreat. What may start to happen instead is that Christendom may start behaving like Islam and waging active war against Liberal Modernity, just like Liberal Modernity has waged active war against it.And why not, frankly? Isn't turnabout fair play? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If Liberal Modernity can wage a campaign to dismantle other lifeworlds, then a campaign to dismantle Liberal Modernity can be waged against it, in turn. It's not immune. It's not special. It's not off-limits.
>>24940575>All that is takes to be free is to be able to do as you pleaseYes, that is literally what the word means.
>>24940450>debunking Ghangas Khan by pointing out he is meanI think moralistic arguments boring when it comes to ideologies. I already find liberalism aesthetically displeasing, but that doesnt mean its about to fall apart any time soon, and no one who likes the system will be swayed by such an argument. If you want to debunk a system you should try and show that they systems own internal logic will rip it apart. Something like >>24941386's argument.
>>24941402In what way? You do realize panarchists figured this out years ago, right?
>>24941433Why bother trying to show that when Marx showed it over 150 years ago? Liberalism falls under capitalism and thus inherits the same contradictions.>>24941386It's not the only one, and yes there is notionally free speech, but there are also things you can say that will very much get you disappeared under liberalism.
>>24941458Marx isn't a sorcerer, you dipshit. Or maybe he is, i dunno.
>>24941465Hegel was a sorcerer, Marx was under Hegel's spell.
>>24941395>I'm a man if faith >Whoa, fuck asserting God over abortion and degeneracy. That would be very unjust. Justice is actually pluralism and liberalism. This is unbiased and neutral BTW!kek
>>24940273>What is your concept of individual rights?All rights are property rights. And there's only private (individual) rights because collective property rights are contradictory.
>>24941386>Everywhere without liberalism is evil oppression >No I am not historically illiterate and regurgitating propaganda I was conditioned with. It's a simple fact that either you have the ideology I was raised in or there can only be evil and oppression. That's truth!Do you guys even listen to yourselves?
>>24941395This only works if freedom is ultimately "freedom to choose" and not "freedom to attain the good "So, all you've done is defend liberalism by asserting it's core doctrine dogmatically. If one rejects freedom as potency rather than actuality, an accepts an objective human good, your point is nonsense. Freedom to flourish and freedom for addiction, etc. are not the same thing in most systems because freedom is not bare potency (to choose anything at all).
>>24940615>What the fuck is wrong with your brain?That's your brain on online trad larp crypto-socialism.
>>24941743
>>24941745
>>24941433Is it "moralistic" to say that liberal governments have seemingly universally been actively working against their stated mission? If you're going to be constantly surveiled and not have freeze peach anyways, why not go for a system that actually works
>>24941187Do you have a reason to back your claim, or did you just lash when confronted with an unpleasant truth, like a hysterical woman?
>>24941433This >>24941757. You're a retard.
>>24941187>autisticSlander. Most autists are obsessed with the downfall of constantinople and late medieval ottoman war history
