What's /lit/'s opinion on banning or regulating all forms of fiction and music? Plato wanted poets banned from the Republic, Robert E. Lee distrusted fiction and novels in particular. Not an advocate for it. Rather, I'm just interested in knowing how people would even consider such a thing. As well as whether or not it would do people good in a time where we seem to be inundated with fiction.
this entire topic nowadays is basically academics coping they are the evil in society and blaming music/fiction instead of the obvious usurious tyrants dominating everything, because academia/college is one of their primary tools.I assume this was just the case in earlier periods as well, there was some obvious malevolent power structure the person was benefiting from, and they don't want to point that out so they just blame music.It's really common with tradlarpers.For music though it had a ton to do with centralization. You basically had a thing in the 17th-20th centuries when national banks were taking off where you wanted to "nationalize" as much as possible to have a stable tax base so you could take on more debt. To do this they implemented public schools (this is the open explicit motivation for public schools this is not disputable), at these schools they'd intentionally undermine folkways, traditional music, traditional dance, etc. This was basically done to destroy local identity and make everyone subservient with the state so they could get that more stable tax base by having a more fungible citizenry. Destruction of local languages which would have been the primary relay for folktales and culture was also a means of that. Fiction itself is somewhat different than music in the modern sense, but if you include just say general poets and tales people tell it applies. Any art does sort of have that binding quality, if it's a product of your culture it can bind you to it, if it's the product of another it can alienate you from your culture.
>>24952598TRVKE, but don't forget music is a powerful (but not as powerful as social media) propaganda medium. Music that promotes hedonism does effect hedonism on the listening masses, whereas classical music promotes a higher state of consciousness.
>>24952556Against it
>>24952739I view classical music as a decline from polyphony which was highly improvisational, it's basically the enlightenment applied to music. (counterpoint vs tonal harmony) Traditional folk music/dance actually had more in common with counterpoint and that modal aspect is a big thing in traditional music.Classical music is good, but is parasitic off of actual culture it is a product it does not develop culture. Musical culture arises from actual traditional music. People acting like dances likehttps://youtu.be/-nKktAZvTIg?list=RD-nKktAZvTIg&t=20Or for more medieval ones like https://youtu.be/3T3laGcd-1w?list=RD3T3laGcd-1w or https://youtu.be/ULPkG78d6gc?list=RDULPkG78d6gc(the drone lines common required the more modal emphasis in composition and that was a constant feature in traditional dance music) A common thing between say old time/traditional Appalachian music is it's highly "oral" culture where things are passed down and improvisational rules are implicit and culture. You can't write down or "score" everything. The fruits of those musical forms die when they are written down. Perhaps they are developed and made more complex (see bluegrass/progressive bluegrass as it developed as related to traditional appalachian music here is one of my favorite later ones by the guy who came up with bluegrass https://youtu.be/GqHtuqrRDrM ).This oral/literate conflict is pretty consistent throughout culture. Philosophy basically died after plato/aristotle (or at least it was just "refinement" it was no longer new fruit) it was revived again after the medieval dark ages and you got that oral vitality back but then it became overburdened in literacy again. The most "complex" systematic works are always the sign of death and decay, not that they aren't good but it is an indicator the culture is dead or dying. The basic folkways are just necessary to maintain a culture and those are always oral, and non-systemetaizable. The whole concept of classical and counerpoint itself again arose out of medieval chant traditions for Churches which were highly improvisational and based on passing skills down. This continued until tonal harmony at which point it basically stopped. When you write something down you freeze it, we can read the scores of older music but for them the score wasn't actually how you performed it. Peter Shchubert's recent work on renaissance counterpoint covers this well. People who think classical>folk music are phillistines
>>24952739Also historically folk music WAS oppressed by calling it hedonistic and being too spirited. That was the justification the nation used to destroy any local cultures. I'm sure you meant like nigger music or the stupid "drumming" shit plato talks about but to me it's just obvious these are effects, not causes. I haven't seen anything to indicate music is a principle cause of much of anything culturally that honestly seems like something some retarded scholar of classical music who is completely alienated and irrelevant would say to justify their irrelevance.
>>24952864dialectic is still a tool of the state even and especially when it appears mournful. dissimulator.
>YOU!!! CAN'T!!!! DO!!!! THAT!!!!oh but I can
>>24952879are you mentally ill
>>24952882>non-sequitur psychiatric accusation on slightest provocationnot exactly beating the allegations here bud
>>24952888I have no idea what you meant
>>24952890it means drawing contrarian lines of force over a protean historical mass like "music" is itself domesticated state-thinking. what was supposed to be a positive tool of analysis turns out to be a normative tool of hierarchical arrangement. diachronic narrative structures like "decline" conjure a rhetorical frame that presupposes what was to be demonstrated in the arguments it choreographs: a tumbling fall from good to bad, form to matter, absolute to relative, presence-to-self to absence-from-self, and so on. you've already concluded that "folk music > classical" in your presentation of a historical change as a spatial move from high to low.
>>24952899I never said folk music > classical, you can't read. If you think saying classical is not superior to folk music means folk music is superior to classical you are just genuinely retarded and that is probably why you talk like a faggot and don't just speak plainly.
>>24952556all mediums of media are used to pass along information, this information can be immoral or guide immorality in societythe redpill that most people dont accept is that in order to be moral we must not allow freedom, and annihilate all immorality on earth by forcethis means banning for example all books that lead to sexual immorality (books like erotica), or books that cause political dissent, chaos (terrorist manifestos)same is true for other mediums and not just books of course, paintings, music, video games etc
>>24952900your instantaneous reply, consisting in nothing but a logical inversion of my own speckled with argumenta ad hominem, confirms what i suspected: that you're eager to pass off the value judgement secreted in the word "phillistines" as objective, ie, as issuing from a law other than your own.
>>24952905You aren't arguing against anyone but the visions in your head there is nothing to refute, you can't parse simple information and just spew out words that have nothing to do with anything.
>>24952908anyone can see for themselves what you are.
>>24952902>in order to be moral we must not allow freedom, and annihilate all immorality on earth by forcethis is actually the bluepill, the redpill is that we're ontically determined to morality (as overriding will to hierarchy) by a historical accident that happened to our brains (logos as spinal catastrophe). each present moment of decisive action is a deliberating value judgement that irrevocably destroys a freedom issued only from logological reflection on the infinity of a possible as against the finitude of an actual act. this has to be the redpill because redpill implies possibility of systematic transcendence on the side of the subject - inscription, that is to say, of the condition (the state of nature) into the subject's own self-conscious decision-making. which it does: ontical determination to order as will to hierarchy inspired by logos implies ontological possibility of an ulterior organization of thinking, and an entirely different style-of-life
>>24952919thats called schizophrenia, physicalism is correct.
>>24952919>physicalism is correct>>(logos as spinal catastrophe)your point? the knowledge drawn from a series of analogies across different polar arrangements discovered at the basis of the chemical, hence biological, hence physiological, hence neuro-psycho-sociological form of Man is still mortgaged entirely on the latter as a rhetorical figure, as the philosophers who seem to have sparked this discussion in the first place would have reminded you. presupposition of totality is a truncheon against thinking, not the outcome of it.
>>24952921>>24952933>schizophrenia>>replies to selfwell we're all our own caricatures now aren't we now aren't we now aren't we.
>>24952556>hating funmuslim tier
>>24952598Were social movements like the hippies or punks detached from art? I would think the basic observable fact that people in general tend to have their character formed according to the art they're exposed to gives the argument some teeth. That it's not perfectly deterministic doesn't really change the fact that people of weak or temptable character can be prodded by such art.
>>24952986So I mean to start the idea of having mass-media recorded music and mass-culture is a technological phenomena that was basically only accessible in that time period due to the technological situation. Music meaning a recorded product people consumed is basically brand new. I think the reason these can have some effect is due to much order deeper issues, the actual causal factors. Art and music I do think are very valuable for sort of shifting perspectives and orienting people, but anything actually "done" is only through people actually acting and doing things that alter the situation. It is I would say when you have good art you can help ground people and help them to contextualize what they are doing properly, and bad art can undermine that however it's not a technical thing like "how structured is the art". Like what had more of an impact in the 60-80s, rock music or: the pill, the intelligence agencies from ww1/2 basically doing a coup on jfk and basically just taking full power (and with that the various population control moves from people like the rockefellers), economic issues, the hart cellar act + civil rights laws, the great migration of blacks into northern cities and and all the urban social engineering, the national bank in 1913 and general war machine pulling us pointlessly into 2 world wars... etc.. etc.. Like the music is obviously an effect and can alter how individuals see themselves and relate to things but am I supposed to think the reason people were unhappy was punk music and not all this other shit? Like it's legitimately just deranged to even suggest. I think as individuals we should be aware of how music effects us and reflect on that but setting up specific general rules is just weird to me. If you want specific rules, you need a specific culture. The idea we have to have hard rules for this sort of stuff as I said is basically just a principle of that centralizing force that was a cause of the destruction of most culture.All these arguments were applied to traditional folk music.Do you think having what, intact communities with traditional music and folk dances for socializing would be a bad thing? Is the incentives from our usurious economy not the primary motivator in debauchery? Ultimately I think there's just something fundamentally morally corrupt in the attitude. We see obvious bad things ruining things, and music you could argue could be misused but has good parts and people focus on the music? just something very disgusting about that. I think punk in particular was a very healthy musical movement that lead to the sort of movement of people just making music on their own/with friends outside of the recording industry. Yes it wasn't all positive because they were in the process of being culturally genocided and we see the fruits of that now. There was something vital in that we don't really have in any music now.
>>24952986an observation that points up the vacuity of this "folk/classical" distinction. as if the composers of classical music werent themselves part of the volk, werent themselves instrumental in inventing the nationalistic ideal of the volk, as if the academicist portrayal of the volkish purity of the folk declining away from its origin into dissimilarity with itself as refined and articulated isnt itself a cover story for the selfsame antiquarian impulse. genre isn't a force on its own, its an index of forces.
>>24952986>people form the 80s were messed up because they were listening to this and not their situationhttps://youtu.be/UDr25zjd4yMwow... deep...
>>24953009>Like it's legitimately just deranged to even suggestits deranged to suppose any of your interlocutors frame it that way, as well, therefore, isn't it? and isn't the logical inversion - effect, not cause! cause, not effect! - just as deranged? the sophist always shows you the process of reasoning as "rabbit season/duck season," never actually questions seasonality as such, leaving you ultimately with the impression that reasoning can't do what it says on the tin and its better to figure rhetorically and instrumentally, as this anon is happy to do.
>>24953011sry you can't just read your garbage into my posts i'm against nationalism if you had an even basic familiarity with history you would be aware nationalism was the primary force against everything I'm talking about
>>24953021>forces againsthow many more ways can i make it clear: i dont see world history as the dialectic of Good-Pure-Original against Evil-Corrupt-Copy. nor do you - but you're obviously disingenuous in the eyes of anyone who knows how to read.
>>24953024Yes the destruction of folk musical traditions was a stated intentional goal of the french, prussian, irish, and even recently the american governments to foster a more unified and fungible polity and a national identity. They would confiscate people's instruments and they were banned from singing traditional songs.
>>24953027your conspiratorial worldview blinkers you to conveniences implied in your own framing of the problems
>>24953031They stated this explicitly you can read it lol, it also is just basically obvious why it works. If you want a stable easy to rule populace with a national culture, you need to undermine whatever sets them apart. This was most obvious linguistically however language, music, poetry, mythology, even folk stuff like cunning folk and magic are all a part of that. They founded schools intentionally to destroy those languages so that they can more easily rule their nation, it's frankly obvious why that would be effective and they stated so themselves regularly it was in the founding charters for the legal acts that founded the public schools even going quite far back (the english doing it against the highland scots was the earliest instance I could find) however the whole "witch" trial thing was also an example of it. It really only took full effect after the railway + telegram permitted easy transit as well as nationally controlled information about the outside world the schools weren't really adequate you needed the economic incentives. Much of it was also tied in with the development of farming technology that permitted large land holders to extract value from land more easily dispossessing small holder farmers and uprooting them also incentivizing the destruction of local cultures. But yes if you want to rule a "nation" comprised of a ton of different smaller local cultures, languages, practices, etc. you kind of do need to standardize them for practical purposes, which is why I think large scale nation states are fundamentally corrupting forces.
>>24953039you're just wrong in fact.
>>24953040Which fact specifically?
>>24953041this one:>If you want a stable easy to rule populace with a national culture, you need to undermine whatever sets them apart
Very wrong.Read Spinoza.
>>24953065lol
>>24952556Plato wanted to regulate fiction too. Pretty sure it is discussed even before music. He even goes into specifics, as to the sort of behaviors allowed for different characters.
>>24953072im sure you have a citation that disproves "divide and conquer"
>>24953108when you scratch under all the academic jargon all you get are cliches, you are a fraud
>>24953127i know, that's how you've just come up with another that you hope will excuse you from justifying your historiographic presuppositions.
>>24952556That's just Islam, for better and for worse, and the Islamic civilization did alright with these guidelines for a few centuries desu.
