If only I knew back when this was published how right he was
>>24956032Damn OP, you sure are committed to your hot takes. I haven't been here in like 8 months and this exact thread is still getting posted.
>>24956032I'll be frank with you OP I dunno how you can be smart enough to read books that dry but dumb enough to not have immediately realized that neoliberalism is fucking retarded the moment you first learned about it. Nothing about it makes practical sense, and it's only somewhat feasible during a period of near-unipolarity. The last time neoliberalism was successful was at the pinnacle of the British empire. It's honestly just theft dressed-up as economics. Globalization will outlive the neoliberal period (barring WWIII), but it will mutate into a more sustainable, realistic, and equitable form. We're in for some dark days ahead, but the long term outlook is actually quite optimistic. The waiting is always the worst part.
I actually think liberalism has been vindicated by the insanely incompetent display of the unliberal forces (putin, bolsonaro, Trump, Xi) all of them have been abject failures and their regimes are collapsing.I used to believe liberalism was done for during covid times. But since then it just seems like liberalism is the only system pragmatic enough to not shoot itself in the foot.The reason Russia, Hungary, Trumps US and China are failing is because they all are scoring own goals. They are fucking up themselves. Liberalism as a philosophy and political philosophy protects against self-owns by basically locking the nation into a bureaucratic gridlock.The irony is that the arguments against liberalism (bureaucracy, managerial class, political gridlock) are the precise reasons why it will survive and why it is superior to the other ideologies. Self-owns are the number one reasons regimes, governments and states fail throughout history.Liberalism essentially makes the government so weak that it's impossible for them to make a self-own, thus outcompeting systems with state interference that just ends up fucking shit up for themselves like Russia, Hungary, China and Trump US.Francis fukuyama doesn't realize this, but his "end of history" book was completely correct and essentially proven over the last 5 years time.
>>24956128I really cannot understand how someone could believe this anymore when the rubicon has been crossed a million times already. The pretenses of adhering to liberalism are being dropped around the world. Currently, the right-wing and the technocratic elite have come to a conclusion that ethnic cleansing is the only way to salvage liberal societies. This is no longer just some fringe idea among twitter anons, it’s the explicit goal of people like Elon Musk and now American congressmen who have all but embraced the ideology of Anders Breivik. Elections will be decided in the future on whether or not politicians are willing to deport every Muslim from the West for example. These are measures that not even America’s illiberal opponents are doing (despite the Xinjiang crackdown China still retains its Muslim population). And never mind our allies like Israel pretty much in the early stages of embracing Kahanist fascism The idea that all of this goes away after Trump is ludicrous. If the elites are unable to salvage the dominance of the West as they see it then they’ll resort to drastic measures. What comes after this year and after Trump will be significantly worse. They’ll lash out, they’ll blatantly contradict liberal democracy, etc. It’s just so absurd to me that any of you are still clinging to this idea. If you’re a liberal and you really dislike everything MAGA has done to the world, you now have no choice but to play by their rulebook, liberal ethics be damned.
can i get a brief summary on the book?
>>24956224>can i get a brief summary on the book?Isn't that one of the major use cases of current artificial intelligence?
>>24956215>Currently, the right-wing and the technocratic elite have come to a conclusion that ethnic cleansing is the only way to salvage liberal societies. This is no longer just some fringe idea among twitter anons, it’s the explicit goal of people like Elon Musk and now American congressmen who have all but embraced the ideology of Anders Breivik.You are so blinded by redditism. The current technocratic elite is still multicultural and is still trying to push mass immigration from India. The only thing that changed is that they realized they were pulling so many migrants that it was destabilizing infrastructure to the point that short term profits were no longer outweighing the ultimate costs to the system.This is ironically liberalism in action, as it takes a slightly more rational and conservative approach to migration, undoing the harm of unlimited mass migration, while preserving the system that keeps wages stagnant and displaces anyone that still remembers how good things could have been with third worlders who are grateful for what it isn't yet.The right is fundamentally split between the ultimately liberal, globalist, and pragmatic tech-"right" and the "right right" as Musk calls it, "backwards," nationalistic, parochial and idealistic people that are genuinely skeptical of liberalism. The "tech right" is just one expression of the progressive neoliberal left that has taken an alternative approach to perserving the globalist project, and the "right right" are the remnants of truly populist forces that are ironically closer to leftist socialists than the tech right. But as an extremely dogmatic and wildly idealist person, you will collapse all nuance into a battle between your side (complicated and nuanced) and The Other (Literally Anders Breivik nazis!!) so any discussion about this is doomed to break down into pointless babbling.
>>24956235if i'm going to use AI for everything, then why would i use this site?
>>24956245Not sure what point you’re trying to make here. When it comes to the nitty gritty then yeah, Musk and co love immigrants like Indians, but let’s not act like these technocrats even have logical or consistent views. Elon Musk is the same person who weeps about the collapse of the West and humanity entering a dark age every day on Twitter, and then he claims that AI will actually fix everything and eliminate disease, war and poverty.The point is that when the elites start talking about “remigration” and “white genocide” then there is no coherent framework in which liberalism can operate. When congressmen are saying all members of a group of people must be deported, that’s that future of Western governance. The writing is on the wall. Preserving the international liberal project cannot be done using liberalism, and people like Karp, Thiel and increasingly Musk are perfectly willing to transgress it. You’re absurdly naive if you think these tech oligarchs, who are openly plotting to treat us all as insects, are seriously interested in being liberals anymore despite all their preaching about freedom. Drastic times will lead to drastic measures
>>24956273>The point is that when the elites start talking about “remigration” and “white genocide” then there is no coherent framework in which liberalism can operate.As opposed to indigenous genocide decolonialization? You are stuck in one set of moral idealism. Liberalism has never been without internal contradictions, and by and large the elite are not concerned with "white genocide." The closest anything came to it was a claim of it happening in South Africa. This "no coherent framework" is a product of your imagination.>Not sure what point you’re trying to make here. When it comes to the nitty gritty then yeah, Musk and co love immigrants like Indians, but let’s not act like these technocrats even have logical or consistent views.This is the crux of how pointless your retort is, when it's just "aww hell it's all random and contradictory and yeah I guess they want millions of brown people lol but, I guess like... umm... like they talk about stuff that makes me feel weird and my tummy starts buzzing and i start breathing fast and it just... the west has fallen."Ok?You are writing endless unsubstantiated conjecture. Most of it is no better than what you'd call /pol/ antisemitic conspiracy brain rot. I am telling you actual substantiated facts: The "big tech elites" still support immigration, still want brown people in employment, and are still fundamentally liberal. This is what I mean by pointless babbling; I tell you the facts, you write some conspiracy and rationalization for why the facts don't align with your unsubstantiated political juvenilia.
>>24956032Nigel Carlsbad completely dismantled Deneen's ignorant conceputal history along with the whole "postliberal" project from MacIntrye to Vermeule
>>24956215>Elections will be decided in the future on whether or not politicians are willing to deport every Muslim from the West for example.This is never going to happen. At least half the Western population (liberals, non-whites, etc) would revolt.
>>24956956Also, >>24956215>The idea that all of this goes away after Trump is ludicrous. It (the current wave of right wing popularity in the West) 100% will fade after Trump. There’s already an electoral backlash brewing (see Miami, NYC, etc) and I expect it to kick into high gear if the economy faces a serious problem. Not to mention Europe or Canada, which are firmly in the grip of liberal democrats without any sort of real opposition (AfD, etc. having proven themselves to be paper tigers)
>>24956224
>>24956032My realization came when i saw what happens when you take it to its logical conclusion. Doesn't help when the loudest proponents are imitations of smart people. People who are extremely obsessed with their own perceived intelligence. It was made easier by growing up under 2 generations who were largely apathetic and nihilistic.
i've long held that any mention of neoliberalism is itself the sole site of the reproduction of neoliberalism
>>24956970neoliberalism is just when a society pretends to care for human rights but all they actually care for is the Markets themselves. Neoliberalism, or Liberalism in general, is the antithesis of the collective Good.
>>24956273>then he claims that AI will actually fix everything and eliminate disease, war and poverty.We are living in such dangerous times. A bunch of ketamine addicts who haven't read a piece of literature since high school think a souped-up, incredibly resource-intensive auto correct is going to give us a magic bullet solution to climate change.>preserving the white race blablablaYou're wrong as is anyone else who says this, buying into the most brain-dead propaganda. You should be ashamed of yourself. Most white people aren't like you, your family, or your friends, they are horrible white trash. Admittedly mildly more intelligent than blacks but not really desirable in any way. The major divide in our society is along the lines of class/education, not skin color. I guarantee you have more in common with some Ethiopian immigrant who is in graduate school than you do with the average white person. You likely don't know what the typical white person is even like, i.e. you are sheltered, or you wouldn't say such stupid things. Now your next move will be "Actually I grew up in a trailer park blablabla". You know nothing, most white people are talking animals and a small subset of black people are based and worth knowing. There is nothing beautiful or desirable about white people as such, you only think white people are magic because you read books written by the tiny minority of whites who are intelligent. Get your head out of your ass, this renewed 'racial consciousness' is the death rattle of a dying society.
>>24956245I personally think most right wing ideologies are done for. They're much more in line with human nature, but that's exactly what they're trying to move beyond. Their vision can't exist in a world with right wing ideologies. Those ideologies are for lower tier humans. Most elites are deeply progressive and to me it seems to be a much more progressive progressivism, compared to the traditional progressivism of the late 19th and early 20th century.All you really have to do is examine how eugenicist progressives were. Even today, just looking at the run of the mill progressive follower, they sound pretty eugenicist. Nazism is demonized, but soft eugenics is basically what is pushed onto everyone and it's not correlated with any specific race or ethnicity.
>>24956288So true, Fukuyaman patriots we're still in control, trust the plan.
>>24956245I know I'm going to make myself sound like a jeet but the only reason they're importing immigrants is that most white people are not smart enough to do computer science. There was even a huge push to get the whites educated in the field and most of them turned out to be unhirable because they are stoner retards. Meanwhile your birth rate is collapsing and you can't fix it. So you actually need immigrants and soon you will be competing for immigrants even more than you already are. I know you probably think a 2000$ check to new mothers or a magical Tradwife rebirth will save you but it ain't happening. You're living in a fantasy world flailing around wildly, whether by retarded chud politics, or left-wing delusion. Like I said, this is the death rattle of a dying society. In other news what the fuck is up with these new captchas. The one with the circles is unsolvable.
>>24956986>You're wrong as is anyone else who says this, buying into the most brain-dead propaganda. You should be ashamed of yourself. Most white people aren't like you, your family, or your friends, they are horrible white trash. Admittedly mildly more intelligent than blacks but not really desirable in any way. The major divide in our society is along the lines of class/education, not skin color.The thing is, even if this is true, "Biology is destiny." I think the White essentialism is misplaced but in a Kalergian way you should care about future maitenance of the human race, and that requires a consideration of the racial question. Caring about DUH CLASS DIVIDE is ultimately very small scale and you need to be thinking beyond merely material matters.
>>24957004Brown hands definitely typed this. I think one of the reasons /lit/ has gotten so bad is all the Indian posters.>Can't figure out the captchaIcing on the cake.
>>24956992I think you guys are deluded. No one was expecting Trump 2.0 to be this bad, yet here we are less than 1 year into it with the most corrupt administration in American history and new wars on the menu. Never doubt what the right-wing is capable of. They're only going to go off the rails more and more in the future and liberalism is not capable of suppressing them. They know this and it's why they find success now.
>>24957015>Caring about DUH CLASS DIVIDE is ultimately very small scale and you need to be thinking beyond merely material matters.Right, and how do you think the upper classes became upper class? Because they have super good genes? No, go back a few generations most of them were trash. So you say biology is destiny but your own post refutes you. The only real solution is a very boring solution of increasing human development, not chanting "white is good!" while a retarded president destroys your constitution and openly sells the country out to tech billionaires.>>24957017I am Afghani and that captcha is not solvable. There are differences in the circles yes, but no consistency in which difference is the one the captcha is looking for.
>>24956128>I actually think liberalism has been vindicated by the insanely incompetent display of the unliberal forces (putin, bolsonaro, Trump, Xi) all of them have been abject failures and their regimes are collapsing.two more weeks
>>24956964I'm not the person you're talking to, but I do want to have an honest converstaion about a post-Trump political world in good faith. We only have, I think, three years left to see what the implications are politically, so I wouldn't be quick to assume we're going back to the principal loser past the old heads in the GOP want; there is a clear generational gap of ideals that we will see in the future. Any minority winning in districts or cities isn't new. The presence of hundreds of millions of racial aliens in Western lands, coupled with the systematic institutional suppression of white national identities, is not the behaviour of a political project that feels capable of co-existing with sovereign self-conscious White nations. To me, this screams immense conflict between Whites wanting this to stop, and it will grow more and more against the techy people like Musk and the non-white race husslers that want more gibs. Nick Funtus is a good example of a growing portion that is against the meritocracy, hard work, GDP duct tape nonsense the Conservatives are trying to pass as a nation. Aristotle used the word “aristocracy” to mean what we now call “meritocracy”: rule of the best. But if you told Aristotle that true meritocracy meant inviting the smartest Persians to rule Athens, he would’ve had you tried and executed for treason. This is now the growing norm: Whites don't want to live under 'legal' foreign occupation, and both the left and right could agree to this sentiment, even though it comes from different places. Leftists will continue their crusade against whiteness at all costs, even at the expense of free healthcare, unless Trump actually destroys those radicals who killed Kirk. If he doesn't do this, I don't see this compromise happening to get the benrie bros back into power.What matters is what makes an American, and it has much to do with heritage and legacy, not immigrants or indians or jews. Technology and the internet are making people aware of things like jewish influence, and those very jews are very unprepared to combat this without looking like genuine un-American tyrants. If anything, the emperor now has no clothes -- I don't think you can just pretend these problems don't exist anymore with the new generation because they are inheriting and see all these problems all over. Yes, the right is becoming more conservative with immigration doesn't mean they're going to denaturalize anyone. But it's a growing avalanche that we can't ignore anymore, since inflation and housing, and basic things like that, are getting harder to afford, and the lack of community is helping people either. You really think Vance liying about this means it will work? I don't see it happening. In the West, two things must be chosen: siding with post-war Liberalism, which is the defense of heterogeneity, putting it in direct contradiction with the nationalist democracy hegemony, which is a basic nationalist outlook.
In my humble opinion the worst thing about neoliberalism is that multinational companies are usurping power over state-governing structures. So there is no longer any nurturing of true national interests and needs. If the companies need a million Indians they will import them and proclaim it as the ideal of multiculturalism, if they no longer need them, they will close the borders and proclaim it as an ideal of preserving national identity and uniqueness. There are no more presidents and politicians, the world has become a place of plunder. They just need a president that will idealize their actions.
>>24957035>But if you told Aristotle that true meritocracy meant inviting the smartest Persians to rule Athens, he would’ve had you tried and executed for treason. Source: my ass
>>24957035>unless Trump actually destroys those radicals who killed Kirk.You mean the one guy who did it, who is now on trial? You're like a fucking FOX news watching boomer lmao. You have no idea how retarded you sound to anyone outside your little circlejerk spaces. That's all the GOP is at this point really, FOX news boomers and incel zoomers.
If there's been a decline in liberalism, it's because the elite has stopped believing in it, not because of le orageman or whatever.
>>24957029There is a consistent difference you're just not smart enough to see it, perhaps because of your genetics. The captcha is literally a simple IQ test and you fail.
>>24957044They're are radicals on the left that are crazy enough to kill and beat people; he is just one of the many. Trump has yet to make mass arrests and actually break apart antifa to keep the peace. If anything, they have been more bold.
>>24957024And the solution to that will be progressivism. People will fall in line and just accept it. At that point everyone will just jump on board even if what they promise isn't likely to happen.
>>24957044Don't you see how this is the exact problem though? That post for example, it has nothing to do with liberalism. Rightists are now effectively living through their own capeshit fantasies where they're crusaders in army trying to "save" the West from the non-white hordes. Things will get worse under their rule (as usual) and they're going to blame others for it (as usual) including liberalism itself. It's very obvious to me that where this is all headed is "Trump wasn't harsh enough"
>>24957035>since inflation and housing, and basic things like that, are getting harder to afford,What would solve housing is rezoning and building more but Trump ran on a campaign to 'save the suburbs!' to appease his boomer base. The math here is very simple, immigrants do contribute to higher housing prices but not nearly as much as you think, and the thing that needs to be done is the thing the government will not do. Meanwhile they distract you with this fever swamp bullshit. You're being ripped off in broad daylight and you're willing to forgive the people ripping you off because they sometimes say edgy, almost-racist things and make TV stories about sending tattooed men to El Salvador or blowing up cocaine smugglers in the Caribbean. You are fucking retarded dude. Log off and think about what I just said.
>>24957055Progressivism, like all Godless ideologies, will eventually fold on itself. It may continue for the rest of the century but eventually there won't be enough buckbroken White people to leach off of and the new East Asian/Indian overlords aren't going to put up with that crap.
>>24956215I don't know how you can say that liberalism is over. Trump has basically killed any right-wing alternative to neoliberalism, effectively reinforcing capitalist realism with his sloppy tariff strategy and general incompetence. Once the Democrats come to power, America will revert to the pre-woke liberal consensus, not much different from Klein's abundance.
>>24957060indeed, harsh measures are needed to counter these dangerous fascists. censorship and arrests, hate speech, confiscation of weapons, forced re-education. that's the only way the Democratic Rules-Based Liberal Order will survive trumpism
>>24957029>I am AfghaniNo Afghan calls themselves “Afghani”>>24957035Fuentes aside, I don’t think ethnic concerns are a dominating force in American conservatism or America politics in general and I don’t think that is going to change. At the end of the day Trump won because people were frustrated with inflation, a weak recovery for poorer people post-COVID, etc. His actions have significantly stressed the economy, and he hasn’t fixed anything. By and large the other excesses of this term (ICE, the debacle with Canada/Europe, whatever is going on in Venezuela) are very unpopular and have eroded the popularity of the right amongst most Americans. I think once his term wraps up a Democrat will win in 2028 and the Republican Party will have to change course from its current nationalist bent under Trump.
>>24957061Why not just deport non-white people by the millions and make more housing? Why one or the other?
If everyone with strong opinions on politics were genocided the world would be a much better place. I wish we could start with the anons in this thread.
>>24957063>neoliberalismAre people really pretending like this still existed? Gov Spending as % of GDP and the % of government expenditures on welfare, healthcare, pensions, etc has continually increased across most (if not all) Western nations since the end of WW2. Outside of the Great Recession there has been no great austerity movement in the West. The Western governments are all continually bloating welfare states, even under REACTIONARY BAD GUYS like Thatcher or Trump. The date doesn't lie.
>>24957074Unironically read Schmitt, libshit.
>>24957075And how much of this spending is on the military? American-led neoliberalism is maintained through America's firepowe and military-spending, so of course this will increase. But if we look at all other aspects of the economy everything is becoming increasingly financialized and capital has sought to turn everything into a market in order to extract every last dollar of surplus value before the system inevitably explodes.
>>24957078Unironically the world would be better if you were dead. I'd happily kill you myself.
>>24957070Trump won because he championed Mexico paying for the border, and while the economy, of course important, it's still the top choice, but many Americans want mass deportations. I don't want to dismiss you, but I think you're underestimating the general will here that liberalism and the technocratic elites are unriocally is refusing to see, and I don't think it will die down seeing the situations we're facing today.Let me ask you this: how do you think they are going to address these issues? They really can't ignore it like in the past, since the economy is not doing so well. At the end of the day, they have to at least bring the people's issues to the table to get elected and not break the social contract anymore.
>>24957092you wont do shit nigger lover
>>24957097>but many white Americans want mass deportationsftfy. They are a vanishing breed who can safely be ignored by forward thinking politicians. Whites are on thew way out. They don't matter anymore.
>>24957055Progressivism is a shell of its former self; it has become a contradictory, race chauvinist (non-whites) business. The white progressives are going to be sidelined, if not already.>>24957106They are still 55% of the population, that's a messed-up thing to say. It's still their country.
>>24957121>It's was their countryftfy. The writing is on the wall and politicians are not renowned for their sentimentality. Demographics are the only thing that matters in the end.
>>24957097>At the end of the day, they have to at least bring the people's issues to the table to get elected and not break the social contract anymoreYes, like the cost of living and things like that. Not so much future of the their race. Here’s what you are missing, very few people care about the future of their race. Racial tensions only erupt when things aren’t going good for people in their personal lives. (This goes for all races not just whites). If the economic situation for people had been better in 2020-2024, people wouldn’t have cared about the border as much.As a result, the powers that be can cool down racial tensions in the west by solving the economic tensions. Something like free healthcare and free/reduced cost housing in the US would go a long way in doing so.
>>24957144>very few people care about the future of their raceWhy can't poltards grasp this simple concept?
>>24957070I work with tons of them and they do.
>>24957152everyone except whites care about race
>>24957191Only whites invented liberalism. You got the best countries in the world but sold your soul, that was the deal you made and it's too late to renege on it, sorry
>>24957201>>24957125These guys really do run off a script.
>>24956032>>249560388 months later I'm still telling people to embrace the much more philosophically sophisticated attack on liberalism (pic related and John Milbank).I'd go as far as Bradshaw's Aristotle East and West to discuss the way we ended up with "freedom as potential" (and so ultimately, materiality, and so nothingness) but that seems like a bridge too far. Everyone wants to focus on Ockham as some sort of demon lord, but Ockham is just a symptom of a deep seated instability. If you want the missed turn in Western history, it's Anselm's elevation and Eriugena's fall into obscurity.
>>24957209I can’t stand the Milbank fag(s) because he/they constantly namedrop primary sources they’ve never read. Milbank is the same, his entire understanding of univocity comes from Deleuze. He has barely read the late scholastics, I don’t even think his Latin is strong enough to do so. But go on keep telling us this simple, “gripping” grand narrative about how medieval voluntarism and nominalism is the intellectual grandfather of trans rights or whatever. Only midwits fall for this crap so nothing is lost.
