Is mysticism real or just your neurons misfiring and making you hallucinate God?
>hallucinateThis has always felt like an enormous cope by materialists. Same as "mass hysteria." Anything to avoid acknowledging the reality of the supernatural.
>>24967750Are neurons real?
>>24967763You have a profoundly low IQ
>>24967750It is real. People who underwent mystical experiences report them being "more real" than waking states of consciousness which doesn't usually happen for hallucinations and dream-like states. And the combination of "it feels real" and "we converge on its description" is essentially what we use to argue that our daily experiences are real to begin with.
>>24967750It's not real. People that claim to have 'mystical' experiences either lie, have misinterpreted real phenomena, or were not in a right state of mind.
>>24967801It literally always happens with hallucinations and dream states.
>>24967779I bet I'm smarter than you, I'm just open to a larger view of reality than you are.
>>24967807Literally untrue. I remember many dreams where I didn't know I was dreaming but somehow knew something is off, while never having a dream that felt more real than reality.Meanwhile religious experience does feel more real and stronger than anything else.
>>24967807If your dreams feel more real than your waking states, genuinely see a doctor about it. It should be extremely concerning.
>>24967816>It FEELS true therefore it is! I trust my mind completely btw.
>>24967812>>24967816>>24967817Souls do not exist and dualism is false and has been disproved logically, metaphysically, and empirically.
>>24967812No, you are a schizo.>>24967816You've never had a religious experience tradlarper.
>>24967820>Souls do not existHow did you learn this?>dualism is falseMaybe, I wouldn't know. Souls aren't necessarily dualistic, many traditions resort to complete idealism.>has been disproved logically, metaphysically, and empiricallyYou might over-estimate the literature on dualism a little bit. It was not discarded due to being disproven. It was discarded due to making a leap that other paradims can seemingly do without.>>24967818If you don't trust your mind to tell you what is real, see a specialist. It is the very reason you have a mind at all.
>>24967829You are a very stupid man. Never breed.
>>24967829>If you don't trust your mind to tell you what is realBy your logic, if I were to develop schizophrenia and experience all kinds of 'supernatural' shit, then it's real because my mind tells me it is.
>>24967827I had one. It was the most intense, joyous feeling in my entire life.I have no way of proving it through internet so it doesn't matter if you believe me. Feel free to cope, but remember it doesn't have to be that way.
>>24967836I don't believe you tradlarper.
>>24967830You don't want siblings?>>24967833If you were to develop schizophrenia then the specialist, which I told you to see, would hopefully take care of that.
>>24967830Nta but>atheist says not to breedKek
Why does the FACT that humans are meat robot monkeys piss off so many people? It quite literally does not change a single thing of the lived human experience, it just "takes away" your erroneous narcissistic belief that the universe exists for your sake, which you should never have believed in the first place.
There are more reason to believe in God's existence than in sun's existence.Rationalism and empiricism are debunked memes.
>>24967842>erroneous narcissistic belief>you never should have believed in the first placeWhat are you basing these value judgments in and how did you get from is to ought
>>24967842It pisses people off because they intuitively sense that this kind of reductionism is not only de facto false (as are all reductions), but also de-humanizing. Most atrocities of the past century were directly or indirectly motivated by this belief. And people seem to intuitively prefer the "narcissistic" belief that humans should be treated well over the robot monkey hypothesis that is half a step away from closing people into camps.
>>24967847>frognigger makes retarded postSome things are eternal.
>>24967840>If you were to develop schizophrenia then the specialist, which I told you to see, would hopefully take care of that.Thanks for ignoring my point and focusing on my hypothetical
>>24967848>What are you basing these value judgments in and how did you get from is to oughtI'm not making a value judgement. Humans are meat-robot monkeys, and the universe does not exist for the sake of humans. These are not value judgements, they're just factual statements.>>24967850It is neither reductionist nor false. There is no implication that humans being meat-monkey robots means that we should accept murder or something.
>>24967863Your point was based on misunderstanding of my logic, which I have gently corrected. If you had preferred that I call you a dumbass and explicitly take your claim apart, we can do that, but I would much rather keep it light. Let's start with this: are you real? Is you reading the text on a screen a real experience?
>>24967750it's real but I don't think it is simple what it is. The Catholic Mystical tradition has some similarities with some shamanistic and clever folk practices and Jung's active imagination he developed he later found st. Ignatius' imaginative prayer and thought it was quite similar. I do think the Catholic mystical tradition is distinct and doing something different, but it's using the same muscles/imaginal world and I imagine the lines aren't a clear as maybe Catholics would like them to be. Personally I do both ignatian imaginative prayer and jungian active imagination which is a really interesting combination... i do them on seperate days
>>24967873If you don't see how reducing humanity to its supposed material mechanism and evolutional development is ... reductive... then I suppose this discussion will not be moving on anywhere.
>>24967873Humans being "meat-robot monkeys" and the universe being made for us are two different propositions, never mind your bemoaning of humanity's narcissism and self-delusion, as if you can even say why you think those are bad. Even from a materialist view your argumentation is sloppy and small-minded.
>>24967888Auspicious trips
christkeks really need to get the fuck off my board and back to their containment boards >>>/his/ >>>/pol/
>>24967883I clearly stated that it doesn't change the lived human experience.>>24967888I didn't say they are one proposition. Both the proposition "humans are meat robot monkeys" and the proposition "the universe does not exist for the sake of humans" are true propositions. I also never said that thinking humans are special is "bad", I said it is erroneous, and there is no reason to be upset about the fact that humans are nor metaphysically special.You guys are coping and seething about reality for no reason.
>>24967899>I clearly stated that it doesn't change the lived human experience.And I clearly disagreed in the second part of >>24967850. If you didn't understand neither the reduction part nor that, I hope you will not hold it against me that I leave it to others to explain the difference between her mother looking at her beloved child and a mother looking at a 50% genetically similar robot monkey.
>>24967897/his/ has been ruined by themThey need to get off this planet.
>>24967899It does change lived human experience. How you think will color how you live.You've been coping and seething about other people from the start. "Why does my nihilistic worldview (100% true and proven btw) repel other people??? Don't they realize how WRONG and NARCISSISTIC they are???" If it doesn't matter that they're wrong and narcissistic, why make a post at all? You clearly think it's bad, but you have no basis for making ethical claims, so you're pretending that we're putting words in your mouth.Tl;dr be a materialist if you must, but any smart materialist will realize that beliefs do change things for people, and stop seething about how other people view the world--for you, it's only part of a complex and absurd system, and there's no point to you trying to change it.
>>24967873>Humans are meat-robot monkeys.False, humans are the crown of God’s creation, borne of the breath of his mouth to rule the earth. This is a true statement. Believing humans are “meat-robot monkeys” is erroneous.
>>24967909Soon we will inherit our place in the new heaven and the new earth. Just a little patience and you’ll suffer us no more.
>>24967763Okay can you or any mysticist enlighten us and show this "supernatural" or is it just trust me bro
>>24967922There are dozens of methods to induce mystical experiences, which type or tradition are you interested in?
>>24967922They can't. They never have and they never will. God needs 10% of your income doebeit
>>24967921>>24967926>>24967927The christkeks have gone insane.
>>24967927Lmao ashrams are literally inviting people to come and learn to access these states, wtf is your bitter ass on about
>>24967904A mother looking at her beloved child IS a mother looking at her genetically 50% similar monkey baby. They are the same thing, and there is absolutely no reason to be upset about the more mechanistic description of this situation.>>24967913I'm not coping, I'm pointing out facts.>>24967919No, you're not. Evolution is a proved fact of reality. >>24967921No, you wont. Jesus did not rise from the dead and he's never, ever coming back. You're never inheriting a new earth or heaven, you're a low IQ moron in a cult.
>>24967940>there is absolutely no reason to be upset about the more mechanistic description of this situationBesides the mechanistic reduction and the inherent dehumanization in that, absolutely fine.
>>24967927Your experiences are yours alone, that's what I'm trying to say, don't try and claim supernatural exists based on your sole experience, if you can't objectively prove it then don't say the other party is coping
>>24967953meant for >>24967926sorry missclick
>>24967820>Souls do not exist and dualism is false and has been disproved logically, metaphysically, and empirically.Nothing more than a discourse regime of truth
>>24967953>>24967956There is no "objectively." Your belief in gravity, knowledge of the way you go to the grocery store, of the way you acknowledge your parents, and the meaning of 2+2 -- are all evaluated based on your cache of personal experience and never anything else. Your decision-making is never put up to a vote.
>>24967956>>24967953It's not based on a sole experience. It's based on pretty much all cultures we've ever studies agreeing that there is a spiritual realm and many of them developing methods to inspect it. Atheists are the biggest fans of empiricism until it's time to actually collect the empiria for some reason.
>>24967940>there is absolutely no reason to be upset about the more mechanistic description of this situationIt's a little upsetting to think that the level from which we subjectively perceive and interact with reality, including our "selves," is an epiphenomenon of a much simpler and fairly deterministic level of reality that has no special concern for us. It's like being completely, hopelessly, down to your very essence and nature, at the mercy of a trillion tiny idiots.
>>24967940Do you have kids, Anon? Or some relatives you genuinely care about?
>>24967966>There is no objectivity in my beliefs My belief in gravity is evident by gravity itself and external reality, supernatural is not evident by ANYTHING other than experience of the mystic >>24967967>Different cultures have different traditions with different effects on the mystic but let me unify it for the arguments sake and call it le spirit realm and it's totally not personal or subjective eh.
>>24967980If calling a universal phenomenon "personal" is all you have then it was my pleasure and have a nice evening.
>>24967750Yes. Learn field theory.
>>24967980>My belief is based on my experiences with it>Mystic's experiences are based on his experiences with it>NOT THE SAME THING BUDDY
>>24967750Can you niggers ever just argue in good faith.
>>24967982Well prove it is not? That's what I was asking in the beginning, show any of us sceptics your mysticism andyour spirituality separate from your experience >>24967987My belief is in objective verifiable reality, something every man can observe, your mystical experience is personal What's so hard about it to get?
>>24967992Your question was answered right away in >>24967926. Don't rely on my experience. Use the methods to verify it yourself. "Something every man can observe" I believe was the standard you had used.
Boy this materialist is a schizo. He's probably suicidal.
>>24967992>My belief is in objective verifiable reality, something every man can observe, your mystical experience is personalSo you just follow the herd instead of accepting the primacy of experience (intuition), huh? Interesting.
>>24968052Experiences are just personal subjectivity ... except when your peers agree with them, then it's real... except when your peers are mystics, then it's just personal subjectivity again. That's what science told me in 3rd grade.
>>24967940Materialistic kike.
>>24967817>If your dreams feel more real than your waking states, genuinely see a doctor about it. It should be extremely concerning.
>>24967945>>24967970>>24967971>>24968065You need to stop coping about reality.
>>24968119t. ranny bot spammer regurgitating his demoralization campaign everywhere until people bite
>>24968119Reality is fine. It's dehumanizing reductionism that usually poses a problem.
>>24967750It makes evolutionary sense that humans believe in those things. usually spiritual beliefs are one of the last copes to fall down, so when you compare humans that would kill themselves because they don't have some strong cope vs humans that keep trying hard because they're coping hard, obviously the copers would have reproductive advantage, and the cope also builds on itself (more people coping and confirming its existence just reinforces the cope for the collective)it's actually surprising how we're not more and more religious over time, maybe it's technology allowing for more "dysgenic" atheism to survive since nowadays you probably don't have to cope so hard to survive. you can more or less just work at an office job, you don't have to hunt, if there's a war you just take a plane to the other side of the planet, and there's a greater abundance of hedonistic copes like onions media, casual sex, validation on the internet, etc
>>24968155Evopsych is not science.
>>24968168cope
>>24968173Can evopsych be falsified? Or is it mere tautology paying lip service to contemporary sociology?
>>24968173Learn another word. Existential distress is but one of mankind's many moods, and is very fleeting for many people, albeit it's overrepresented on this board. More, religion draws on various moods beside remedy-seeking despair.
>>24968185>>24968264Seethe first if you must but cope you shall
>>24967750>It's satanic black magic... Sick shit.Yes, it's real. But it's not of this world and comes from a place of darkness.
>>24967897>>24967909Ruined by whomstve exactly? Certainly not the amount of sexually confused adolescents who didn't get attention from their fathers so they hate God and everything he's created. A sort of atheistic Gnostic who both denies material reality and God because it produced an ugly unlovable cretin like themselves.
>>24968125This so much. Reality is indeed real, but there are certain kinds of people so drunk on logical positivism (which is a British invention, btw) that it leads to extermination of people who don't fit their idea of what humans (and sometimes animals) are supposed to be. Its no wonder Aldous Huxley wrote Brave New World yet was aware of transhumanism. The idea thats there's no God and humans should overcome existence. And there are some people more fit than others for reproduction.
>>24967926William James' "Varieties Of Religious Experience" might be helpful to you.
>>24968342>because it produced an ugly unlovable cretin like themselveswell that gives more validity to their point althoughever
>>24968320>LA LA LA COPE COPE COPEI accept your concession.
>>24967750It's real. I've experienced phenomenon based off my "reaching out". It can't be described any other way.
>>24968320It's funny when the >I FUCKING LOVE SCIENCEcrowd literally believes in pseudoscience like evopsych lol. No self-awareness at all.
>It's real because I've seen/felt/experienced it!>Prove it? UHHH yeah I can't do that, you just have to believe me. But I swear it's super duper real, my feelsies tell me it is!
Some experiences can't be denied or rationalized away no matter how hard one tries.
>>24967750yes but 99% of the time it's demons
>people still believe in logical positivism in 2025This shit died and rotted 60 years ago. Hell, the bones of the argument which killed it were already there in Kant's time. The fact that anyone still believes in reductionist shit like the kind peddled in this thread is an indictment of the public education system.
>>24967763I dunno, it sounds like a bigger cope when you can trigger experiences that could be described as mystical by the applications of drugs or by damaging or impairing the brain.
>>24967750how can neurons be real if our eyes aren't real?
>>24968603Why are materialists so obsessed with hitting someone in the head?
>>24968420NTA, but evopsych is useful for advancing more symbolic forms of psychology like Freudianism and Jungian analytic psychology. I even could make a case they can be complimentary.
>>24968681Evopsych isn't useful for anything, its just pseudo-anthropology.
>>24967750>is direct *experience* of something real, because my belief says it shouldn't beMaterialists are deluded to the max with such questions.
>>24967807Dreams feel like dreams. Every drug I've taken feels like a drug. Even DMT and salvia where I forgot I was on drugs. From what I understand, infused contemplation is not like this.
>>24967750Your experience is real and your brain isn’t. The first step of mysticism is recognising what is prior to concepts in your experience. The recognition goes by various names depending on the tradition, stream entry, kensho, gnosis, awakening, unknowing and others
>>24967750It can be the latter but I believe the former does exist. It was probably a lot easier to select for gifted individuals back in the day when a well-to-do family would regularly give the first born the inheritance, marry off the next few sons and daughters, but the rest of the kids would be sent to abbeys and monasteries for intense study and religious reflection the rest of their life. Easy to see how one could grow a huge devolution to God and set aside worldly things.Nowadays every kid grows up with an ipad and is terminally online. The closest thing you get to this now are edgy tradcaths and orthobros—but they’re too indebted to their own pride to be able to humbly mysticize.
>>24968424Experience it for yourself.Atheists love empiricism until it's time to collect the empiria lmao
There is no science that can solve consciousness. Any claim to such is simply its own faith-based supposition.
>>24967992>something every man can observehow many men do you know?
>>24968993didn't Michael Polanyi speak of this?
>>24967992There’s no objective verifiable reality that two men can observe
