Best rebuttal to picrel?
>ways to make the English reformation sound gooddrawing a blank desu
>>25010320Keep thinking, buddy
>>25010288Defoe's Robinson Crusoe explains the new Protestant mindset that was incompatible with Catholicism. The printing press and proliferation of literature created an internal monologue in European minds that shifted the practice of religion from corporate sociability to the private examination of conscience by this new internal monologue. Religion became an issue of private conscience, not conformity to a social community. Protestantism was a natural outcome of the printing press and a literate public, whilst Catholicism depended on public illiteracy and the absence of a reading culture.
>>25010320Uhhh, provided the economic and cultural basis for the Elizabethan golden age of English literature??? Without the commercial prosperity and invigorated use of the vernacular which resulted from the Reformation in England there would be no KJV or Shakespeare.
>>25010342Then why didn't a Reformation happen with the orthos
>>25010358Take a step back. The establishment of the Church of England only basically made the monarch the Pope and is not related to the English dissenters whose presence culminated in the Civil War
>>25010342The freedom of conscience protestantism of Robin Crusoe is nothing like the CoE or Cromwell. The CoE banned any congregation not part of the church with a vicar (priest) ordained by the church. Cromwell and his party banned idolatry in church and came down hard on Catholics. Robinson Crusoe believes in freedom of conscience for Catholics and all sects of Protestants, he only avoids living in a Catholic country ultimately because he thinks they won't allow him freedom of his sect, but he also has no issue worshipping with Catholics in their churches and passing as a Catholic if there is no alternative and even feigning Catholicism. He also has an animosity toward the forcible conversion practices by the Spanish and sympathizes with cannibals as people who simply practice their beliefs not knowing any better. The American sense of freedom of conscience simply did not exist in any European protestant state except for the Netherlands. Even to this day if the king of England switches to even a non Anglican sect of protestantism, he legally is automatically deposed from the monarchy and his heir becomes the legal monarch
>>25010375What are you talking about? Henry VIII's economic reforms and the literary work of Tyndale, Coverdale and Cranmer are exactly what is responsible for what we understand as the English golden age of literature.
>>25010401Oh, he even describes that when he has other "citizens" on his island, he has, as he jokes, freedom of conscience, with he and Friday being protestant, the Spaniard being a Catholic, and Friday's father being a pagan. This was not an ideal to most protesters except for Quakers and Netherlands-style Puritans like Milton
>>25010411Henry VIII certainly brought in a sort of golden age by sacking all the monasteries, but that also came with the major drawback that there no institutions to take care of the poor in the vacuum and it took England quite some time to fix this. He is similar to Peter the Great who confiscated all the monastic lands and banned monks from writing and women from being nuns and enslaved all the peasants who were tenants on those lands, which the enslavement being further expanded by Catherine. This brought in an abundance of wealth to the state but it came with a significant number of negative repercussions as well
>>25010417I also might point out that France underwent a similar renaissance and explosion of arts and letters at the time and they were brutally Catholic
>>25010369Russians seem to be proud in their backwardsness and remained a feudal backwater until the 18th century.
>>25010342> catholicism: religious practice based on corporate sociability, illiterate> protestantism: internal monologue of examination of conscience, literatePlease give me a break. Are you not supposed to examine your conscience for working at a polish sperm bank?
>>25010288There is simply NO justification for being Protestant when you think about the fact that every single Protestant Church is a humanly-established institution with a human founder. Every sect of Protestantism is an instrument of Man that exists because of some dispute between Men.Any objective study of history clearly shows that the Church Jesus Himself founded is either the Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church since they go back to the beginning. Protestants have no answer for this.
>>25010480Yet there were works written. I'm doing this for comparative research
>>25010432Peter the Great was actually the one who instituted widespread serfdom and slavery believing resistance to it was backwardness and Christian superstition
>>25010480>Any objective study of history clearly shows that the Church Jesus Himself founded is either the Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church since they go back to the beginning.Thank you for coming into the thread only to kick the can down the road. Yes, rest assured, anon, you’ve found Christ’s one true church in the Catholic Church *or* Orthodox Church, take your pick.
>>25010480>Catholic Church or the Orthodox ChurchWhich is it?
>>25010480It's the it's neither, it's the Oriental Orthodox
>>25010542I will interject for him to say it would be the Catholic Church if they had no pope, and it would be the Orthodox Church if they had a pope. The dialogue has not budged from here for nearly a millennium.
>>25010342>muh pressIt was capitalism. Read Engels' The Peasant War in Germany
>>25010288Boom.
>>25010401Defoe flows directly from Milton. Cromwell and his peers admired the Jews for remaining true to their conscience and rejecting Catholicism even when under persecution and forced conversion (as they returned to open Judaism in Holland). Crusoe leaves Brazil because his conscience refuses to remain in a heretical (Catholic) church, it's an exemplor of Protestant religion being downwind of an internal monologue and examination of conscience created by literature.
>>25010606No, the printing press creates an internal monologue in the minds of Europeans. Religion then becomes subject to that internal monologue, and Catholism can not survive that critique.
>>25010417>>25010420Of course, I don't mean to say the English Reformation only had good consequences, and I don't mean to say that the commercial prosperity it brought in is unique to Protestant states, but in England it was certainly a consequence of the Reformation.
>>25010358do you think shakespeare was culturally protestant?
>>25010896Depends on your definition, but in the most literal sense yes. Not that it's relevant to the thread.
>>25011001think you’d have a hard time finding someone who disagrees that shakespeare’s world is catholic & i object to you holding him up as an example of protestant cultural triumph.
>>25010480>It's old therefore goodThe modern day Catholic Church is basically unrecognisable to whatever Jesus founded 2000 years ago. Orthodox I would accept.
no one in this thread is actually religious
>>25010882Is Protestantism going to survive?
>>25010882you are operating on a too small historical frame. Catholicism itself is explicitly literate in it's form.Greek oral culture was the foundation of the hellenestic and roman period, however with the introduction of the phonetic alphabet it degraded into literate form as well. This was taken up by the romans and the roman imperial system was the sort of peak of literacy which drained the life from the oral forms which are the source of vitality. With that degraded we had the return to the more oral medieval period, the Church was both literate and oral and participated in both. 600 years later or so (it was not just the printing press) there was a bunch of factors, paper instead of parchment greatly reducing the cost of books, the re-introduction of literate greek philosophy through trade with muslims (they also brought us paper), and the bubonic plauge which killed ~70% of people in cities and the majority of clergy which significantly compromised the church's ability to pass it's knowledge in in 1350. The reformation formed around a century after that and was a product of people losing faith in the Church due to the impact of the plague on Europe's economy and social structures and the collapse in the standards of clergy (due to the plague basically everyone good died) which was basically a historical blip.The places that went protestant (germany and england) were less romanized. France had replaced it's celtic language with the latin while germanic langauges remained. Protestantism is kind of fundamentally a germanic language phenomena due to the lack of cultural connection with the Church and kings seeking more authority they rejected the Church since it was further off and disconnected and lacking in authority for them (due to the plague) but they also have cultures that were less literate (latin cultures like france/italy have already had a language that was literate for millenia) so it was not a shock to them.The cultural alienation from the clergy due to the plague, the shock of the literate re-introduction of the greeks/paper/printing press allowed germanic cultures to let kings usurp the Church's authority (which just lead to them being captured by bankers, as you can see in them now).That's why celtic areas in the UK presisted in Catholicism despite englands attempts at genocide, because protesntaism i just a Germanic thing linguistically. It's entirely unhistorical, and frankly just unserious. Germanic people didn't have the culture or tradition of literacy to handle it well though. This is also why you didn't have this huge impact in latin countries. And catholicism still maintains it's dominance, it has gone through literate and oral periods already another transition is nothing new.I do not think protestants can persist though, they depend on the artificial systematic view of rationalist modernity and cannot function as we tend back to the oral, as I said the history they present is a complete farce.
>>25011086>celtic ethnoLARPkekThe welsh went 100% protestant which btfos your retarded LARP that le """celts""" were catholic
>>25010896>>25011010There's nothing catholic about shakespeare and the only people who think he was a catholic are LARPing tradcaths.>but he used the idea of purgatoryAnd plenty of christian writers wrote about pagan concepts or pagan characters it doesn't make them pagan at all
>>25011113Yes elites closer to england compromised early same thing happened among the germanic scots in the lowlands. Any celtic country that hadn't submitted to england for economic gain was Catholic. That's why the highlander scots were Catholic but the lowlanders were not because the lowlanders had nobles and merchants who wanted to participate in the the english nobility/economy and they also spoke germanic anyway. You also entirely ignored all my other points, the only cultures where protestants "won" out were ones that had no history or experience with literacy. All the countries/cultures with a history of literacy did not get this "shock" that allowed the kings to steal church property and give it to nobles for favors and create the banking class.
>>25011010Anon, in the most literal sense Shakespeare was an Anglican and, like every writer, directly dependent on the culture of his time. You can say Shakespeare is spiritually Catholic or whatever but he is also and always will be the triumph of nationalistic Elizabethan culture which was explicitly Anglican. Only someone who hasn't read his plays would disagree.
>>25011128>compromised earlyThey didn't you absolute retard. Lowland scots had always consider themselves superior to highland scots. England didn't give a shit about the highlands of scotland, lowlanders were the ones pushing to colonise the highlands, not englishmen.>the highlands were catholicThey weren't. They were roughly a third catholic, a third presbyterian and a third episcopalian. They were far more catholic than the protestant lowlands but they weren't ever more than 50% catholic in the late 1500s and 1600s.>You also entirely ignored all my other points, the only cultures where protestants "won" out were ones that had no history or experience with literacy.All the countries/cultures with a history of literacy did not get this "shock" that allowed the kings to steal church property and give it to nobles for favors and create the banking class.You're clearly an ESL seething over superior germanic northern euro protestants.
>>25011131Tradcaths think due to a (likely forged) letter found in an attic that shakespeare was a secret catholic. They're schizophrenic retards who like claiming every protestant historical figure as catholic.
>>25011136I'm american northern europe is entirely a shithole totally being humiliated by bankers. I think the american revolution was entirely justified after the glorius revolution when bankers fully captured the english government and since then anyone with a soul was kicked out of england and the soul purpose of northern europe now is the rape it's citizens and serve as a humiliation ritual.America is the actual inheritor of european civilization, you guys sacrificed it and are now just occupied by bankers and jews in a way even more fundamental than the US. also>You're clearly an ESL seething over superior germanic northern euro protestants.not an argumentThose lowland scots who attacked the highlanders yes I said they were culturally germanic and engaged with english nobility even if they weren't technically english (they were still spiritually anglo). I don't really think it makes sense to talk about scotland as a nation it's the celtic dal riata kingdom in the west which also involves ireland and the germanic eastern side (that's also where the norse, other germanics, were). Sea travel was easier than traveling over mountains.The idea of a united scotland is mostly a fiction because lowlanders simultaneously have no culture because they just adapted to whatever was convenient and wanted to take the highland land so lowland scots identify with the highlanders for no reason, and their domination is why scotland is so fucked and gay now. (as with all of europe)
>>25011146>I'm americanlol
>>25011137>a (likely forged) letter found in an atticI remember doing an honest investigation into that and I don't know how anyone could come away from it without realising that it's a blatant forgery. The type of evidence Tradcaths rely on is as bad as the people who claim Shakespeare was Bacon.
>>25011146>Puritanschizo has migrated to /lit/LMAOImagine pretending the american revolution was based and the glorious revolution wasn't when the american revolutionaries self identified as the inheritors of the glorious revolution. it was a whig revolution against tories both timesRemember when you claimed anybody calling you out on your schizophrenic ESL bullshit is part of the protestant internet defence force? LMAO
>>25011148yes america is the actual inheritor of the british civilization, our law and culture is much closer to what england was like prior to it's capture by bankers>>25011152I don't care what people say it's what is structurally the case that matters. The english gave up their royal line and were dominated by bankers from then on, it is perfectly reasonable for americans to reject that. I'm aware the people who were against the glorious revolution fought for england in the US revolution however that's more just due to a lack of historical perspective. In terms of the actual systems and structures, america is actually faithful to traditional british cultures while Britain itself is literally just a humiliation ritual currently by the bankers who have completely dominated whatever pussies were left there.
Friendly reminder that Puritanschizo, the creator of this thread, is an ESL /his/ user who spends his entire time defending catholicism and writing deranged screes about torturing puritans. When his worldview of a catholic english paradise being destroyed by protestants is disproven he starts spamming Cobbet's reformation. He's made completely schizophrenic statements like believing the robin hood ballads were government propaganda written by john of gaunt, that john wycliffe was an agent of john of gaunt, that the 1713 pirate base on nassau was established by charles the second (over two decades after his death).He also deceptively bemoans the fact that protestantism destroyed english culture while taking glee in the norman conquest which he sees as a "welsh reconquista.
>>25011157i never post on /his i have no idea who you are talking about i'm glad to konw I have a fellow traveler though
>>25011156>I'm aware the people who were against the glorious revolution fought for england in the US revolution however that's more just due to a lack of historical perspective.No it isn'tThe Glorious revolution in the americas consisted of whigs rebelling against what they viewed as a tyrannical government. The same thing happened 80 years later with the american revolution. The american revolutionaries celebrated the glorious revolution and hated the stuarts.Your retarded idea that the american revolutionaries were rebelling against the glorious revolution is contradictary to all historical notions and evidence and is proof of your deranged, schizophrenic tradcath worldview.
>>25011161Again you can't just focus on what people say, what are the actual structures. How did the legal system operate before and after the glorius revolution and is america closer to the prior than england is the question. What about the attitudes towards central banking, gun ownership, local governance, etc. pre-1688 in england gun ownership was considered a fundamental part of being a free person and after the revolution they continuously shrank that while in the US it persists to this day while in england you'll go to jail for having a plastic knife. Same thing for the fourth amendment, in england they can search your house if you have a tv plugged in while before 1688 they actually required warrant. You see similar things in the role of the jury basically in england all power and protections of the people were slowly gotten rid of (some right after the revolution like the gun stuff) while those persisted in the US. That is despite the US actually founding after these changes started to occur in england, we went back to the older english legal structures the banker owned government rejected. As I said though the self sacrifice and ritual humilation of what remains of england is basically already locked in, it's only the legitimately mind raped english who don't recognize themselves as a conquered and humiliated people.
>>25011182Absolutely retarded post1688 occured because James began confiscating firearms. The bill of rights after the revolution established firearms as a right. Gun control didn't even exist in england until ww1 you absolute retard.It's clear you're an ESL catholic retard, puritanschizo, and all historians know that the american revolution was inspired by the glorious revolution.
>>25011190Something can be inspired by it partly while also undoing it's motivations history isn't just like sides going against each other lol it's not a marvel movie (though you probably need to tell yourself that to live with your completely raped and humiliated country and culture i have no idea how english people live with themselves)
>>25011193>raped and humiliatedImagine saying this when you kneel to george floyd and let blacks riot in your cities yearly.The American Revolution and the Glorious Revolution were the same event with the same causes. You keep coping about that fact and ignoring the reality that king james actively tried confiscating firearms from protestants while william of orange made firearms ownage a legal right for protestants.
>>25011219im sorry trying to act like england is even comparable to the global super power is just sad, make sure you let the muslim cop know when you need to buy a chef's knife. You focus on details too much, america has inherited what was the legal tradition in england and still maintains it, while england is a bunch of pathetic humiliated slaves.
>>25011247Whites in britain riot against their governmentWhites in america kneel to george floydWe are not the same
>>25010542Doesn’t matter for the purposes of comparing the two to Protestantism, which is something Prots often fail to understand when they attack Catholicism while failing to advocate *for* their particular church. In effect many Protestants, in attacking Catholicism, are at best advocating for Orthodoxy, and at worst promoting Atheism.All of these things are impotent though with this simple but admittedly poorly presented train of thought I have feverishly churned out below:If Catholicism is wrong, then Orthodoxy is right, if Orthodoxy is wrong, then Catholicism is right, because one of them must be right, as they follow Christ’s teachings, and Christ established an actual church. However, if both are wrong, then Christianity itself would have to be wrong, meaning Protestantism is still wrong. Regardless, it is impossible for Christ to be wrong, and even if the truth were definitively shown to be not of Christ, I would prefer to remain in the Truth and Way of Christ. Ergo, in all logical possible outcomes, before getting into the minutia of the Catholic vs. Orthodox debate, Protestantism is definitely wrong, whether or not Christ is right or not, and since Christ cannot be wrong, I cannot be an Atheist and I cannot be a Protestant.
>>25011291The point being that if I absolutely concede the material truths of Atheism of there being no evidence for God as being proof of non-existence, Christ is still true, and God is still true. Even if Protestants could prove every aspect of their religion to be more moral, and more correct, and what have you than every aspect of Catholicism and Orthodoxy, Protestant churches would still be untrue, because God founded the Church, and God is true, not some fat 16th-21st century German’s interpretation of scripture, no matter how persuasive I could concede it to be.
>>25010876I don't think Cromwell or the Netherlands admired Jews, they just felt persecuting them couldn't be reconciled with the Bible. Cromwell had zero problem persecuting other Christians though, whereas Milton and the Netherlands didn't do thatCrusoe is just going by what he was taught. When Friday asks him about why God doesn't simply kill the devil because of all the problems causing Crusoe says he will on the day of judgement and Friday said why not today and Crusoe literally says he pretends he didn't hear him because he has no idea. This in spite of the fact Crusoe has been stranded for decades with no reading material except the Bible Crusoe has no issues in his conscience going to a Catholic Church, after he gets off the island and travels through Spain on route home he explicitly says he goes to Papist services during his stay there. Crusoe is concerned that in Brazil if he tries to form a protestant congregation then he would be imprisoned which is true
>>25010491well I was unaware of that, probably need to read Peter K. Massie's biography on him. anyways, this thread is getting off-topic.
>>25011250lol, no they don't
>>25011182based and rushdoony pilled
>>25011689where does Rushdoony state these claims?
