>>25011930
The really stupid thing he did was create a medieval-like world with the Shire, a place with postal service and mechanical clocks.

>the unfailingly good guys who God destined to win eventually triumph over the pure evil bad guys who God destined to fail
Not denying his tremendous influence, but this is fiction for retards and children.

>>25011932
Could you not say the same of basically any story in which the good guys win?

>>25011933
Depends on if there's even a pretense that failure is a possibility for the protagonists.

>>25011930
>he didn't know about SOLARpunk
You can't blame him for that, nobody does. Utopian settings are becoming rare as fuck.

>>25011932
>but professor Tolkien, what is good and what is bad?
>"Good is what Eru says it's good and bad is what Eru says it's bad"
The Swedish Academy was fucking based for not giving him the Nobel of Literature.
>"his literature is not very elevated"

>>25011934
Isn't there always?

He created the modern fantasy staples in the same sense that Adolph Hitler created administrative states. His work is the ironic punchline to a joke about industrialization and commodification and is a success because of how easy it is to commercialize his lazy derivative plundering of folk tales and mythology.

>>25011935
>Tolkien can imagine a steampunk dystopia in Númenor
>he can't imagine a solarpunk utopia in The Shire or Rivendell
You can't make this shit up, man.

>>25011934
the protagonists DO fail , Sauron is only defeated because by inspiring evil with his ring Gollum refuses to let it go so takes it from Frodo and falls into the lava after Frodo succumbed.

>>25011930
>evil cannot create
>steals the name "gandalf" from another story
the irony

muh heckin grey morality! hurr what if sauron was actually the good guy

>>25011937
In the case of LOTR, I think it depends on the order in which you approach the various books.

>>25011930
ngl u sound retarded

>>25011943
How about the order in which they were written?

>>25011930
He was a genius polymath that dedicated decades of his life to the story he wanted to write. What happened to the genre after his success is not a reasonable critique of his work, and anyone simplifying middle earth to "le good and evil" unironically was filtered

>>25011940
>Sauron is defeated
>the ring is destroyed
>the protagonists fail
Okay...

>>25011946
>and anyone simplifying middle earth to "le good and evil" unironically was filtered
Elaborate then

>>25011930
>creates the current fantasy genre and its never-dying cliches
They weren't cliches when he created them. They became cliches because they were so effective.
>>ruin it all by adding "absolute good vs absolute evil" mythos
Everyone believes in good and evil, one way or other.
>technological progress is unironically bad,
Yes.

>>25011938
Go back to r/communism, retard

>>25011947
Is the final result all that matters to a story having a "pretense of failure?
If so, then isn't the answer to this >>25011933 affirmative?

>>25011936
>he fell for the Euthypro meme

>>25011941
Kek'd. Thanks, anon.

>>25011946
>Tolkien: "I'm catholic, my story is about good vs evil."
>anon: ""Good vs evil" is an oversimplification of what Tolkien tried to tell."
Anon, you're the one that got filtered here.
As I wrote in OP, I admired the different cultures, languages and realms that Tolkien created, but the whole mythos is retarded.

>>25011939
Name 5 solarpunk settings, I'll wait.

Black and white is two colors, it's more complex and interesting than grey, which is only one color.

>>25011932
Ever heard about the midwit IQ curve meme, anon ?

>>25011947
they don't succeed as a direct result of their own actions, their plan fails at the very end

>>25011952
>Euthypro meme
The what?

>>25011949
>They weren't cliches when he created them.
>"absolute good vs absolute evil"
>not a cliche back then
Anon, you're not very wise.

>Everyone believes in good and evil, one way or other.
>"Absolute good is when I allow absolute evil to exist to imporve my creation, yes pedophilia and cannibalism are core parts of the improving process." - Eru Ilúvatar

>>technological progress is unironically bad,
>Yes.
As I said, you are not very wise. Not use 4chan, then.

>>25011930
>>25011932
>what is mythopoeia

>>25011953
if you're not interested in mythology why are you reading tolkien? sounds like the retard is you

>>25011941
That's a good point.

>>25011957
That makes the story even worse. A series of deus ex machinas like Raiders of the Lost Ark.

>>25011930
sexuality doesn't exist in LOTR so rape wouldn't be an issue

>>25011960
>"my mythos are based in my Catholic faith" - Tolkien
So, his mythos are as retarded as his faith.

>>25011963
only worse to midwits like you

>>25011951
If you know from the jump that an omnipotent God destined good to triumph over evil, then there's not even a pretense of it. It depends on the work in question.

>>25011965
but not as retarded as your bait anon

>>25011966
Enjoy your young adult fiction.

>>25011967
why did you read the silmarillion before LOTR? also it's a bittersweet triumph

>>25011970
Probably shouldn't have in hindsight, but I just read the books as they became available to me growing up. At the time I wasn't aware of the "correct" reading order, and liked the idea of starting with a lore primer.

>>25011930
Tolkien wrote all that as therapy for his war traumas and being English and Catholic at the same time and all the drama that emerged out of those histories. Also his friendship with CS Lewis is in there and the casual rivalry over Narnia

>>25011967
Well I didn't read the Silmarillion or whatever but I don't remember anything about that in LoTR.

>>25011958
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma
fedoratheists like OP often use this problem and this as well https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_command_theory as strawmen to bash religious morality

>>25011968
>anon calls my ""bait"" retarded, yet he still falls to it
*Laughs in Black Speech*

>>25011974
Gutless Christian "philosophers" like Aquinas and Anselm don't even try to reconcile it. They just throw their hands up, reject it wholly, and say "God is just good, don't ask questions and just deal with it :)"

>>25011974
>greek bullshit
Anon proving again how fag he really is.

>>25011976
>refuses to engage with the actual arguments put forward by thinkers disagrees with
>accuses these thinkers of doing what he just did
classic plebbit

>>25011976
>don't ask question, just consoom my philosophical book and get excited for my next philosophical book

>>25011978
>anon is a greek fag and gets mad that people don't care about his greek fagshit
Many such cases.

>LOTR is a fundamentally religious and Catholic work
>Has violence, magical beings and sorcery

>>25011930
Zoomer

>>25011982
Ok, boomer.

>>25011980
Anselm of Aosta and Aquinas weren't greek though they used a lot of greek philosophy

>>25011984
>they used a lot of greek philosophy
>so they were spiritual greeks, while also being spiritual jews (bad combination)
My point stands.

>>25011978
Literally what they did. They refused to even engage with the premise because they couldn't reconcile it logically. Which is why Christian philosophy is a laughable farce.

No, but Lewis was

>>25011981
Christians literally believe in magic so it makes sense.

>>25011988
The Bible forbids the depiction of magic and sorcery. And the characters still use violence and force.

>>25011989
I guess it's not 'magic' when Jesus or other Jew prophets perform supernatural miracles. Nor is it magic when you bless some crackers and they magically become the literal body of a dead guy (but not really though). Nothing magical about guys coming back from the dead

>>25011930
>>Eru gave narcissism to Melkor and OCD to Mairon and ruined their lives for all eternity so they could "improve his creation"
no he didnt, that was random disharmony in the great song

like ungoliant's existence

>>25011986
>aaahhh I can't understand metaphysical arguments, they're so abstract, it makes no sense !!
>I know , I'll just dismiss them out of hand , that'll show these stupid religionists how much me so smart !!

>nooo there cant be good and evil, or else my morally dissolute and banal worldview would be negated
This is your brain after semitic thought-shaping.

>>25011991
>be the creator of all
>all happens because you
>something random happens in your creation
Anon, you clearly didn't read Tolkien's works since in those works it's written ALL happens (even the bad or random stuff) because Eru's will.

>>25011992
This still isn’t an argument or rebuttal. Cute that you just learned the word "metaphysics." Keep trying lil bro

>>25011993
OP never said there can't be good, read again greentext, ABSOLUTE good vs evil is retarded because Eru Ilúvatar is not the ABSOLUTE good by his own definition of ABSOLUTE good.

Why are you so retarded?

>>25011994
nope

>>25011995
I don't need to rebut you. The thinkers and philosophers you claim to have outsmarted have actually rebutted and disproven you centuries ago. There's nothing to add

>>25011998
>thinking philosophy is "proven"
Average Christian "deep" thinker

>>25011999
>thinking that the point of philosophy isn't coming as close as possible of absolute Truth
average plebbit fedoratheist pseudoskeptic

>>25012000
>>thinking that the point of philosophy isn't coming as close as possible of absolute Truth
Total non sequitur lol, I never implied anything contrary. Try again lil bro.

>>25011930
People keep telling me i should like LOTR. I really want to like LOTR. I read the books more than once, saw the movies. After all this I have to admit it's pretty dumb.

>>25011999
Philosophy was disproven millennia ago.

>>25011932
>he still thinks lord of the rings had a happy ending

>>25012001
None of the theologians and philosophers you attack refused to engage with the premises of Euthyphro dilemna; they simply proposed an alternative answer to break out of the deadlock it posed, you're simply being too disingenuous to recognize it

>>25012001
I forgot to add to my answer here >>25012005
Go back to whine on r/atheism obviously you giant retard

>>25012005
>they simply proposed an alternative answer to break out of the deadlock it posed, you're simply being too disingenuous to recognize it

They cut the Gordian knot. Because they knew what they were tasked with, like Alexander did.

>>25011932
>unfailingly good guys
Nigger, Frodo is forever wounded by the influence of the ring

>>25011930
I don't see how that's ruined by being conventional, when the work was groundbreaking in other ways. If anything, following archetypes like the hero's journey makes it easier to work on the mythology around it to make it compelling.

The problem here, as with everything else in your life, is you being a reactionary moron who just agrees with everything he reads without processing it.

>>25012005
Describe Anselms argument in your own words.

>>25012002
OP here, same anon, same.

>>25011931
the shire is the UK

>>25011940
>Still not understading that Gollum fell because he broke his oath
>Still not understading that the greater narrative here is that evil ends up destroying itself

>>25012009
>t. contrarian retard

>>25011989
>>25011990
The Bible makes a distinction between "Magic" and "Witchcraft". Biblical Magi are good guys for example. Authors like Tolkien, Lewis and Jordan understood this and were careful when using terms like Magic, Witchcraft, sorcery etc. Pretending all of these words mean the same is what is actually Satanic.

>>25011932
>the side of literal God should not win because... it just shouldn't, OK!?

>>25011930
yes he was but he made up for it with a good story

>>25011963
>you simply cannot have luck because it enrages this one anon

File: Smart Pepe.jpg (4 KB, 157x148)

4 KB JPG

>>25011930
Only a Low IQ degenerate would say this kind of thing. Just by opening your mouth and saying something like this you prove you are too stupid to talk to about anything.

>>25011931
>he thinks there were no clocks or letters in medieval times

>>25011964
Sam Gamgee got thirteen children from somewhere.
Let's see if you can join the dots. Concentrate now ...

>>25011930
>he didn't know about SOLARpunk
Neither do I. Who the fuck needs to know about it.

>>25012015
>Biblical Magi are good guys for example
Yes and no. Yahweh expressly forbade divination, but was apparently fine with the Christmas thing. I guess he changed his mind.

>>25012015
The Magi were Persian fire-worshippers btw.

Reading LotR for the first time since childhood right now. I think it works on account of the quality of the prose. It's also well plotted, lots of things happening quickly.
I feel like critiques of Tolkien focus too much on criticisizing the mythology, doesn't seem very fruitful. But one aspect I enjoy is the melancholic feeling of the fallen world the characters inhabit. The ancient golden age you are constantly reminded of is over and there's no going back to it. Everything old is dying etc. And there is a device similar to what's happening in the Nibelungenlied, where you are regularly reminded that things will turn bad. A lot of paragraphs or chapters end by remarking that a character would never see some place or person again, can't journey back.
I also don't feel like the triumph over evil is as clear cut as it is sometimes made out to be, but I still have to get to the ending.
Do agree that the Shire seems out of place in some details and the whole thing is asexual. I found the parts that lean into horror (Ring Wraiths, Moria) most enjoyable so far

>setting has polytheistic pagan gods who control their representative domains of reality
>nah bro it’s catholic, Eru is God