One way I like to engage with philosophy when direct philosophy is too arduous to engage with or when I'm burnt out, but also derive no satisfaction from Pop philosophy, is to engage with it through stories. Infact that is first how I became interested in philosophical questions in my late teen years.When I asked this online, I got stuff like Crime and Punishment, and Infinite Jest. But having actually read some philosophy books myself now, they dont seem to engage with philosophical questions "hard enough". I can't say enough about IJ, as I havent finished it yet, but when I'm reading 10 pages about some dude being anxious about whether the weed dealer will come or not, and telling us how much they prepared for this. I sorta "get the point". Its almost like the point is so straight, that theres ultimately no point in the end if that makes sense.Whereas in Crime and Punishment its like every plot beat is contrived to directly lead to the conclusion of "finding Christ". Like the abandonment of Raskolnikovs prior values, of which hes admittedly little more than a stereotypical representation of, wasnt earned, they werent engaged with, his actions werent a reasonable product of them, and so what is left, isnt a counter argument, or a counter proof in the form of a naturally accuring story, but instead pure consequence, leaving the protagonist with nothing, where anything can be filled in with afterwards, in the case of this book. It was Christianity.Any ideology, any thought, any principle can be defeated if you just shoot the person advocating for it. Or if its implemented poorly, hastily, with poor understanding.Thats shallow. Personally I don't understand how people enjoy stories that play out in such a way. I want to be convinced, to engage with the implications shown as if they're not arbitrary, in the way "By Definition" is arbitrary. So that I can be assured in a conclusion that does not come from itself.Is that Dune?
It has a lot of buddhist and islamic philosophies
>>25023790what does it actually do or say with these philosophies that's interesting?
>>25023785Read R. Scott Bakker's Second Apocalypse series', Prince of Nothing and Aspect-Emperor.Those are philosophical.
Not really, the most interesting thing about Dune is the Butlerian Jihad as a representation of anxiety about technology but that’s not dwelt upon in any great detail. Dune is like an elevated space opera, I think it’s good, but it’s not especially deep
>>25023785I read it like 15 years ago, but no. Dune is more about economics, politics and history than philosophy.
>>25023797not much, it just sorta namedrops them the way a "philosophical" anime or video game would. if you want actual philosophical fiction, you're not gonna find much in sci-fi/fantasy. black metal lyrics have more philosophy unironically.
>>25023990>I think it’s good, but it’s not especially deepin general? or just philosophically? because im worried im being too strict when i say "philosophical"if anybody actually hopefully read everything i typed up in OP. Its less about havinv "philosophical rigor" and more about not committing the follies i personally found in the two books i reference and use as examples as often considered deep or philosophical, but didnt feel like so to me.there have been loads of anime/manga and even tv shows ive watched and read in the past, that arent philosophically rigorous, but yet still tackle concepts in what id call a "philosophical way".Its really hard to describe this without the experience of having read philosophy, and even with the experience. Especially because not all philosophers philosophize in the same way. But my favourite TYPE of philosophy, even if its not a philosopher I actually agree with all that much now. Is Plato. I think the sense of a "back and forth dialogue" is the strongest way to approach philosophy. And the way Plato does it, is specifically in a way that CANNOT be contrived. He asks and makes sure his interlocutor accepts certain basic ideas before moving on, and if they dont accept, they argue about that basis with analogies or whatnot. Plato will sometimes write characters to think of Socrates as a "trickster with words" to me, the reason why he does this, is because hes aware that to retards, the way Socrates wins arguments is too easy and convincing, so he directly in a sort of meta, but not meta way, tries to address that. Probably because if we take how Socrates died irl to be true, then people considered his intelligence to be "trickster" and I respect that he tries to address that, because that concern of "trickery" is essentially the same as my concern for contrivance in stories, where essentially everything about the story exists to affirm the presupposed point, irregardless of how reasonable (usually because its reasonableness is never established, its not that convenient things cant occur, its when theyre not sufficiently explained in a non circular way) or realistic it isFor me, and what im looking for, the story and its progesssion itself should act as the analogy, and the characters should be the interlocutors, arguings about the events that happen, and they should have sufficient depth that we can understand completely and immediately why they view and understand things the way they do. Not just that they understand things the way they do, like Raskolnikov if that makes sense.I think a lot of people give Raskolnikovs characterization a pass either because they can imagine a person like that, or think of his ideology in that way. Its like a confirmation bias sort of thing to me. But his character isnt remotely reasonable ro me, and I dont mean that as "he doesnt make the right decisions!" i mean the way he thinks and acts does not make sense. Its something only a story could produce.
lol nobody cares dude
>>25023965Are these really the only ones? Opening prologue seems edgy more than philosophical
Malazan? Idk havent read it myself but heard its deep
>>25023785The main "philosophical" idea of Dune is that combining religion with politics is dangerous. However, Dune is primarily a work of mid-century scifi, which means that it's more about the speculative idea than the philosophical one. Basically, the main question of Dune is "What would it actually be like to know the future?"If you're looking for something like a Dosto book where absolutely everything points to a central theme, that's not Dune. It is thematic, and it does have more focus on ideas than the average modern SFF slop book, but at the end of the day it's still genre fiction. Its primary purpose is to alternate between moody classical tragedy and exciting desert adventures. Still, if you read the first four Dune books you will get a look at some interesting ideas.
I got bored with this book half wayit was dry
>>25025482>If you're looking for something like a Dosto book where absolutely everything points to a central themeDid you not read OP?
This guy definitely was part of the CIA's acid tests wasn't he? I'm not even going to bother looking it up, its part of my headcanon now.
>>25023785What Dune does relatively will is mix Herberts hallucinations while on shrooms, sabres of paradise by lesley branch, living in the Oregon sand dunes and musing about the nature of power a competition in the upper strata of society.
>>25026216I don't think so, but he did do a lot of mushrooms.
>>25026262hmmm why would i be interested in herberts hallucinations and musings if not particularly enlightening or deep? not that im saying theyre not, but saying "what it does well, is translating the others thoughts and feelings"....is like saying "what X book does well, is having written words" atleast thats how im reading it.
>>25026308You seem to be looking for epitomes of deep philosophical exploration and I don't think Dune or even God Emperor (book 4) is that.I describe as I experienced it and try to assess it fairly. I enjoyed it immensely, but I have a taste for the weird, the original and even familiar ingredients mixed in a surprising way.I don't have strong philosophical underpinnings to be too sure to judge it for its philosophical merits, but my guess would be that it really doesn't explore them deeply.For me personally his musings of power helped me better understand those upper echolons. The characters may not be very well developed, but their dilemma's and inner worlds are.I also enjoy the creative ways in which themes and ideas are mixed. To some degree the deepest of books are lost on me, maybe I don't quite understand them, or maybe in their pursuit of it I find them predictable since perfection can take only so many shapes, while the rantings of an intelligent madman are both unpredictable and engaging. Huh, that's the best description I've given to myself about why I like weird works with some depth. Or maybe I'm too dumb to appreciate the level of depth you seek.Herbert added more than enough of his own that it isn't just a derivative work, like Shakespeare's Romeo and Julliet being like Pyramus and Thisbe, yet a Shakespearian work, or Kubrick's eyes wide shut being like Traumnovella, yet a uniquely Kubrick film that does go beyond what it is based on.If you're just looking for the epitome of depth of philosophical exploration, you should probably skip it. If you're unsure, you should read it, it's not like the first book is a very long read.If you read the first, you will want to read the second (messiah) (only a third in length of the first book). At that point you will know if you want to wade through the slow drudgery that is the third in order to get to the golden weirdness of the fourth (god emperor). Maybe this is helpful, I tried to be anyways and it's fine if it's not.
>>25026440>Or maybe I'm too dumb to appreciate the level of depth you seek.Im not pretentious, if I were to give you an example of shows I've watched which I think sufficiently explore a basic philosophical concept. You would either be confused, or laugh. Especially with me having put down something like Crime and Punishment.Its hard for me to put into words what I mean. Its a problem of language. Words simply have too many meanings, so even when I try to "isolate" what I mean by "philosophical" I can only really express my experience, and at that point, im getting closer to a private language where its not just that nothing "means" anything, its that it cannot mean anything, because to "mean" something is to have some social use.Anyway I think Dune sounds interesting, but I'm not convinced its what I'm looking for. I dont think im asking for something too "deep". I only use that language because its invokes something more than something like pop philosophy, its not that I dont have a definition of "deep" its that its so specific, in particular, and demanding of elaboration, that for me to express it, one might just drone out and get lost in the words.The best way I could put it, is, what im NOT looking for, is everything I criticized about Crime and Punishment, im essentially looking for the opposite, and I must make this clear. For the opposite, not of what "you" or people generally think Crime and Punishment is. But the opposite of what I have personally outlined, is an element of crime and punishment.
>>25026456I mean Dune doesn't really engage with philosophical questions. More things like"What are the dangers of a well meaning and supremely capable messiah?"and"How do powerful factions that observe degrees of decorum compete and wage war?"and"What are the results of the effective terraforming of a world to be more human friendly?"In other words, probably not the philosophical concepts that you would like to see explored as they play out between humans. You should probably skip Dune if that's your goal.Note that spoilers don't really exist for Dune as the future gets spelled out before it happens pretty much all the time.Also wasn't calling you pretentious. I generally seek deeper works than the average person I encounter, but shallower than philosophy students, philosophy professors and serious /lit/ posters that I encounter. Just trying to state truthfully and ego free what it looks like to me when I said I maybe just smart enough to understand, but too dumb to really appreciate and enjoy certain works.I think your instincts are also telling you Dune isn't what you're looking for. Trust your gut.
