—Ulysses! that whole business again, well it's not true it's bullshit I did not read it I'm telling you I did not read the damn thing I did not . . . In that cramped interval between his fingers' faltering insistence and the floor's mute expectancy, the cylindrical burden already half‑forgotten as an object and remembered only as the fleeting damp it had impressed upon his palm described its reluctant descent, a kind of minor abdication enacted with all the misplaced ceremony of something that had never belonged to his grasp in the first place. —Oh hi Anon.
Can you discuss literature or just gossip like a teenage girl?
>>25044548>In that cramped interval between his fingers' faltering insistence and the floor's mute expectancy, the cylindrical burden already half‑forgotten as an object and remembered only as the fleeting damp it had impressed upon his palm described its reluctant descent, a kind of minor abdication enacted with all the misplaced ceremony of something that had never belonged to his grasp in the first place.Kek spot on
>Can you discuss literature or just gossip like a teenage girl?
>>25045023>i limit my self awareness to orgasms
>>25045080>Excerpted from 'The Letters of William Gaddis' (ed. Steven Moore)
>>25044548I did not read it... it's bullshit....i did not read it. I did NAAT
>>25045500Easy on the daiquiris, Willy.
Do you think Gaddis ever heard English rock combo The Cure's 1982 LP "Pornography"?
>>25044548biggest little bitch in american letters
At least he was being an insecure liar in a subtle way unlike that preening pompous maggot Nabokov
>>25049856rent free
>be Gaddis>write 1000 page book on authenticity, creativity, art and life>retards spend the next the next 70 years ironically proving they completely missed the point in the most hilarious way possible>can't call them out on it>would ruin the fun of people who havn't read it yet>not like it would change anything anyways, retards be retarded after all>what do?>need to retard proof next book>1000 pages of unattributed dialogue should do the job
>>25044577You mean the trollotype that is on every board and possibly bots at this point?
>>25050850kek.
>>25049856what did big nab lie about
>>25044548This niqqa was a thousand percent CIA.
>>25053849What makes you think that?
Otto :)
>>25055464e mezzo (:
>>25056633I am not sure what you are getting at? you mean half from an analytical standpoint in that combined with Wyatt he provides a full perspective? Otto is one of my favorite characters, few make me laugh like Otto makes me laugh.
>>25054975No one can say what exactly blud was doing traveling all over Mexico, Europe, Africa and South America during the cold war after getting "kicked out" of Harvard, or what his PR/documentary work for the US Army and some of the biggest American corporations entailed. Some, however, may speculate that the guy working in South America for the CIA's notorious United Fruit in TR was based on his own experiences thoughbeit
>>25056907Interesting. I want to read the Joseph Tabbi book on this guy but I haven't found it anywhere online.
>>25056907quite generous of you. to me he just scans as a seething midwit, forever butthurt that the world didn't embrace his """genius""" and relieve him of wage labor. many such cases
I own a controlling stake in the William Gaddis estate AMA
>>25059654Why do you larp on an American weeb forum?
So what's with this supposed connection between Gaddis and Joyce? I read Ulysses years ago, so it's not top of mind, but I did just finish J R and I don't see the resemblance. Is there a clearer influence on The Recognitions? (I haven't read anything else of Gaddis at this point.) Or is it just something like "Joyce wrote an unconventional, big, difficult novel. Gaddis did too. Therefore, Gaddis is really just regurgitating Joyce."? I just listened to an interview of Steven Moore and this topic came up. What's the deal?
>>25059722Retards be retards. There isn't much there worth considering.
>>25059722Gaddis was clearly lying about not having read it.
>>25060366why do you say that and why does it matter?
>>25059666Huh what u mean
>a "Jack Gibbs" makes numerous appearances in the Epstein flight logsGaddisbros…
>>25059722What did Moore have to say?
>>25056907You should read Carpenter's Gothic
>>25067223Is Carpenter's Gothic more of the do everything in the dialogue? Really would like to see him developing some of things he did in TR other than the dialogue, things like the first chapter of part 2 are and I want more. The pure dialogue is interesting and fun, but not my thing.
>>25067289It's mostly dialogue and transitional narration where swaths of time pass or activities that occur alone and in silence are narrated. I mention it because one of the main character's is ex-CIA fronting as some kind of natural scientist.
>>25067223No one should read Carpenter's Gothic.
>>25069009Everyone should read Carpenter's Gothic (I have not)
>>25069117I shan't, but I just ordered A Frolic of His Own.
>>25065849Nothing significant. He just said Gaddis denied ever having read Ulysses and that Moore had no reason to believe that he had actually read it, given his talks with him and research. It came off as something like "oh this topic again..." and he gave a quick canned answer.
>>25044548WTF!
>>25070141Figures. Company man.
You lissies? You mean Od-oosaeous?
>>25071203Fart-sniffing convention?
>>25072715oh word?
>>25071203>START>DOING>*THIS*
>>25056860Otto e mezzo is a very famous Italian movie from the 1960s about a movie director who reflects on his childhood Im not sure the relevance just saying
>>25077149real
>>25063507>---That's the thing Bast you don't even, see you don't even have to actually do anything like illegal or moral or whatever you just email this here jay ee vacatio-, vacationing, and see then he puts you on the flight logs and he knows all these guys Bast you wouldn't believe all the guys he knows. I mean like say I want to get this guy elected who like he would pass this law right to make, well to, it doesn't matter but I want him to win - he can just call up these other guys and get these ads on tv or the radio or whatever. You have no idea, I mean holy - Bast? Hey Bast?
this thread is like one of the party scenes in recognitions
Is he the last based American novelist?
>>25080600seeing as mccarthy squandered his basedclout on hanging with the santa fe faggots for 30 years, probably yeah
>>25080600I am the last based American novelist.
The Letters of. Talk to me. Need it or keep it?
>>25079206These plebs probably don't know a single thing about the solids in Uccello
This thread turned me on to Gaddis. He sounds based. Gonna start with J R.
>>25085659Let us know if you ever finish it.
>>25085659jr is the deconstruckted club of books (true story)
—Don’t move don’t talk outta time don’t think don’t worry everything’s just fine just fine don’t grab don’t clutch don’t hope for too much don’t breathe don’t achieve don’t grieve without leave don’t check just balance on the fence don’t answer don’t ask don’t try and make sense don’t whisper don’t talk don’t run if you can walk don’t cheat, compete don’t miss the one beat don’t travel by train don’t eat don’t spill don’t piss in the drain don’t make a will don’t fill out any forms don’t compensate don’t cower don’t crawl don’t come around late don’t hover at the gate dom’t take it on board don’t fall on your sword just play another chord if you feel you're getting bored. . . .—I feel numb . . .—Don't change your brand don’t listen to the band don’t gape don’t ape don’t change your shape have another grape . . . don’t plead don’t bridle don’t shackle don’t grind don’t curve don’t swerve, lie, die, serve . . . don’t theorize, realize, polarize, chance, dance, dismiss, apologize. . . .—I feel numb. . .—Don’t spy don’t lie don’t try, imply, detain, explain, start again . . . don’t triumph don’t coax don’t cling don’t hoax don’t freak, peak, don’t leak don’t speak . . . don’t struggle don’t jerk don’t collar don’t work don’t wish don’t fish don’t teach don’t reach don’t borrow don’t break don’t fence don’t steal don’t pass don’t press don’t try don’t feel don’t touch don’t dive don’t suffer don’t rhyme don’t fantasize don’t rise don’t lie. . . .—I feel numb . . .—Don’t project don’t connect, protect, don’t expect, suggest. . . .
Why is this thread still alive?
>>25089660Why are you still alive?
>>25089664Cowardice, mostly.
>>25089674Shit, cat.
>>25089674:-(
>>25089660Because Gaddis shall live forever.
>>25044548Right, so I finished The Recognitions and absolutely adored it. I already bought J R and A frolic of his own, but I think I’m going to read something by Gass before starting another Gaddis. Which work of Gass would you scholars recommend?
>>25094124The Tunnel is the place to start for someone who loved TR. Not to suggest they are much alike but you can obviously meet the challenge and it gives the best overview of who Gass was as a writer.
>>25094124Unironically? THE PORTABLE GASS. Great selection.
>>25095830Sorry, I meant THE WILLIAM H. GASS READER.
>>25095832>a book of excerpts and some random essaysI really don't understand why books like this exist. Finding a Form and Omensetter's Luck would be a better easy in for people who want a taste but don't want to dive into The Tunnel and half as long. Or In The Heart of the Heart of the Country and On Being Blue if you want the crash course but are ok with a challenge.
>>25095842I think it's a nice volume, a choice selection. Makes sense for writers like Gass who cover a lot of ground, but would of course be pointless for writers who focus only on, say, fiction.
>>25094124Heart of the Country
More like GAYddis
>>25099617gottem
>>25078336kek
Funny in hindsight how Gaddis could only farm clout when he was out to clobber and exhaust. Vineland's reception was all raves compared to Carpenter, which was like one big "oh dear...".
>>25102907I like to pretend he went directly from J R to Frolic.
>>25103951i like to pretend im a girl (sometimes)
>>25103951I like to pretend that /lit/ actually reads but you guys make it very difficult. >>25104865I also like to pretend that you are a girl.
>>25104885Face it, Jack: Carpenter's Gothic is the Godfather III of the Gaddis ouevre. Read 'em and weep.
Has anyone read Cynthia Buchanan's Maiden? Gaddis was apparently a fan.
This thread makes me nostalgic for last month…>>25088841>deconstruckted club of booksHow?
>>25106956issa vibe ting blud
Gaddis, in a 1982 letter:>My last statement from Harcourt Brace reads debit of $4.29, incorporating the 35 cents they overpaid me on my last royalty check six months ago of $11.48.Nice to know that shit was cooked even for National Book Award winners during the halcyon days of litfic.
>>25108738It had been 7 years since his last novel and he avoided doing most everything required to maintain sales past the initial surge. Gaddis made the choice to not play the game and do almost nothing to keep his name out there between novels.
>>25109287Tru, tru. And, as proof that things have indeed changed and we are in hell, here's a nice anecdote from somewhere: when big G was active as a copywriter, he and the guy he shared an office with basically had free rein to dick around with their hobbies before lunch (which is how he prepared bits of JR), because their boss was hyped that he had a big important and commercially unsuccessful novelist working for him.
This is what Gaddis thought of other writers. He hated Nabokov with a passion lel: -On Writers like Updike, McCarthy, Umberto Eco, Dostoevsky, Nabokov :>I: What do you think of acclaimed writers like Cormac McCarthy, John Updike or Don DeLillo who don’t produce rubbish but do become best sellers?>G: I’ve never really understood why McCarthy is now so successful. He’s fantastic standing far beyond the rest. Maybe his success goes with his theme of the American Western. Similarly with Larry McMurtry whose books so to speak are still opening up the frontier.>I: And Updike?>G: That’s a different kettle of fish. He’s very clever. When I say I’m interested in America, of course it goes for him too. But his and my America are entirely different. He writes about John Cheever’s America, of which I know enough myself. I’ve lived in Westchester, commuted to and from New York, liked a drink when I was younger and never missed out on a party. But Updike for example admires Nabokov. And I do not at all. I cannot excuse Nabokov for doing Dostoyevsky down. Of course, Nabokov is clever too, very much so, and sometimes he only wants to show that he’s much more clever than you and I, that he’s the most clever of us all.>I: Have you ever read Umberto Eco?>G: No, but his success fascinates me. My work on the one hand is judged to be difficult, inaccessible - there’s that terrible word. It’s always vexed me on the other hand because I find my books rather amusing. Entertainment is an important part of a novel, and I try to make mine entertaining.On Delillo, Pynchon, Coover:>I: American authors such as Thomas Pynchon, Don DeLillo or Robert Coover are obviously greatly influenced by you. Do you for your part follow their work?>G: When J R appeared it was rumored that Pynchon wrote it. I think that he and I have our parallels especially with regard to the entropy motive. But I’ve only read a little of him. And Coover, he now deals with things like Hypertexts or whatever they’re called. I mean, he is very intelligent and unique, but he goes in quite a different direction to me. DeLillo has said some very warm things such as I’ve been an influence on him, but it doesn’t mean that it’s reciprocal. I came across his book about the Kennedy-assassination, very good!1/2
>>25111352Is willy G feeling the anxiety of influence towards Joyce?: -On TS Eliot, Jung, Joyce, Evelyn Waugh and Dosto-Nabo again:>I: You are supposedly very much influenced by Joyce, but you’ve always contended this claim. There are, however, stronger influences from C.G. Jung, definitely T. S. Eliot and of course Dostoyevsky above all.>G: I’ve never read Ulysses. That I must painfully admit. I did flick through Finnegans Wake at some time, and a couple of its lyrical passagesare really wonderful.>I: But they had nothing to do with The Recognitions?>G: Nothing at all. It’s really all in the clouds. My book appeared,and like Ulysses it was long, complicated, similar in its allusiveness and then there were those who maintained: He’s trying to write like Joyce. And that is ridiculous. But Eliot! Keats once said a poem should be the highest expression of our highest thoughts or something similar. And when at college I came across Eliot’s Four Quartets I felt: My God, he’s exactly expressed the way I perceive the world around me. Lines like "a world of a thousand lost golf balls" or "men and bits of paper blown by a cold wind" is as I see New York. I immediately devoured Eliot. And Dostoyevsky, you’re absolutely right. I’ve been reading him all my life. That man could do everything. Complicated characters, madness …He’s also very funny, Very very funny, yes. And passionate! The epitome of passion that someone like Nabokov could never understand; he knows nothing about passion. And Jung, definitely. I discovered him at college, the idea of a manifold myth that’s also in The Recognitions like the idea of the virgin birth in successive cultures.>I: I also feel that Evelyn Waugh influences you as in the way his novels develop through dialogue.>G: Waugh is very witty, very quick. He must be one of my favorite authors.On German writers :>I: are there other German authors that were or are important for you?>G: Earlier at college, I was under the influence of the Romantics,especially Novalis. For The Recognitions, Goethe’s Faust had been very important, and Wagner’s Rheingold for J R - almost too much to tell the truth. A dwarf that grabs money and then says such a stupid thing as I renounce love for money and so on. And that he is a dwarf is even better.That I just couldn’t resist. For a while now I’ve been very enthusiastic about Thomas Bernhard. As crazy as he sometimes is. But his madness is always aimed at himself, and that concept fascinates me. And besides he is funny. Excruciatingly funny.
Beware any cunt who finds Dostoevsky and Bernhard knee-slappingly funny
tfw no gaddis novel about nfts and labubus
>>25111352>he only wants to show that he’s much more clever than you and I, that he’s the most clever of us allbit rich coming from mr recognitions
>>25115023How is he being clever in TR?
>>25044548 This site actually has a good concept that anonymous users are just passing through
>>25115035how is he not
>>25116651I don't think you read it. He mostly relies on dialogue and character to get his point across and will happily have a character give a thinly veiled speech to avoid being clever with it. Narration is straightforward in its purpose. Gaddis wants the reader to engage with character as they would engage with people and this is where the difficulty comes in, the reliance on dialogue means we have to unravel who the character is from who the character thinks he is, just as in real life, and both the character and the character's idea of themselves are important, just as in real life. Add in dealing with the character interactions and how this all interacts and develops across 1000 pages, and things get complicated. Nothing about this is clever or even particularly unique but Gaddis did it better than anyone and did not do it for just a couple characters, he does it for them all.
>>25116741if the fucking recognitions doesn't qualify as a series of brazen, panting attempts to be clever then.. lol. bro bitched for decades about heckin critics not getting his big epic book. he's telling on himself
>>25118352Go ahead, explain what is clever about it.
>>25118457sure, if you post tits
>>25106956>last monthMiss that lil nigga like you wouln't believe…
Read the first 19 scenes of JR yesterday, the dialogue makes for quick reading once you get the voices down, probably the quickets 150 pages I have ever read. JR (character) is great but Bast is a bit too much like Wyatt in voice at times, causes some weird dissonance. >>25121056I think he was making a joke about how long this thread has been up.
>>25122010In your estimation thus far, how much of JR is Bast? I find the struggling misunderstood artist angle to be the least appealing thing about it.
>>25123308Bast changes quite a bit as JR becomes more prominent, That was my same issue with his voice being a bit too much like Wyatt's but in retrospect it was actually more Otto and pretty great. Gaddis does not want you to like Bast in that first part and the first 75 pages or so are a bit of a drag but once things start happening everything picks up and the reasons for Gaddis making us suffer starts to make sense.Bast does not actually change, his situation does which gives us a better view of his character. In the first ~75 pages what Gaddis is actually doing is setting up Bast as someone who has spent his entire life being sheltered from everything, his getting the job at the school is the beginning of his entering a world he knows nothing about and he knows very little outside of music. The dialogue centric style makes it difficult for Gaddis to give background information on the characters, so Bast becomes a stereotype and that combined with his relationship with his aunts and Father give us a great deal indirectly despite almost nothing being spelled out directly. We pick up on all this even if we don't realize it, I did not put it together until I started answering your question but it was all there and I had to have understood this on some level to get later stuff. Gaddis exploits our natural tendencies to judge people before we get to know them and he does it very well. We actually have all of Bast's childhood figured out by the end of his first scene, it is why we dislike him. Stick with it, just keeps getting better.
>conversation between Bast and JR at the museum Fuck me, that was amazing, read it three times.
>>25053849>>25069117have you read Carpenter's Gothic? I am also of the mind that it is nothing more than supplementary reading to Frolic, but it does feature a self-insert character who sells out to the CIA.All of the postmodernists are CIA agents yo. Ruggles, Burroughs Gaddis. All of em.
William Gaddis, or as I like to call him: the Clown Prince of Postmodernism.
>>25044548Gaddis won the debate.
not complaining but I can't believe this fucking thread is still here.
>>25127453I half believe that it is because I told an anon I would elaborate on some stuff in another thread and if that thread died before I got around to it I would do it in this thread, which was still new back then; he is just keeping this thread alive either in hope or in spite, or maybe a little of each.A few hours later when I came back to respond to that anon, the thread had turned to absolute shit and I lost any desire to contribute to this place. This thread has weighed on me since even though there is a fair chance that anon was just a troll. I have bumped it and kept it alive a few times despite (in spite?) of this.
>>25126926what did i miss
>wishes he was Joyce>assumed to be PynchonKWAB
>>25125936pfft
Another 100 pages of JR down after no time to read over the weekend, almost at the halfway point and should finish it before weeks end. The limitations of dialogue is somewhat wearing on me, some of these long conversations don't really add much and could be taken care of in two pages with a narrator, They do allow him to establish voice well enough that he can do things like only give one side of a telephone conversation and we have no issue filling in the other side, but I am not sold on it; feels like Gaddis goes out of his way to make things fun and entertaining to avoid it becoming a drag to read, and he mostly succeeds but the humor is starting to become repetitive. 430 pages in and there hasn't been a single meaningful conversation, an actual meeting of the minds between two people, it is starting to take a toll but I am curious and this seems to have been a very conscious decision on Gaddis' part. I can see how it ties in with the general thrust so far and he has set up a fair number relationships which could result in such a conversation, but I don't see him doing it, it feels like it would undermine everything else he has been setting up so far. Really getting excited to finish it so I can dive into something with a well defined narrator and long descriptive passage, its going to feel like climbing into bed after a very long day. I wish this place could actually discuss literature.
>>25131283Thanks for the heads up. I got The Recognitions, and was going to start with it soon as an intro to Gaddis. Last book I dropped was Underworld by Delilo. I was somewhat enjoying it, but everything started to feel pointless and humorless. That's what I'm getting from you regarding JR. I'm running into this feeling with postmodernism in general.
>>25132429Delilo writes in a droning monotone, at first I thought I was failing to find his voice so I downloaded a few of his audiobooks, they all read it in that same droning monotone. I find it really interesting but I just can't get into it, keep trying with him for some reason, just got Underworld and this will be my fourth attempt, tried Libra, White Noise and one other that I am forgetting at the moment. Nothing about TR or JR is postmodern. Had these been published in the early 20th century he would have been accused of being old fashioned for clinging to outdated techniques instead of embracing the narrator, internal monologue and stream of consciousness. Gaddis is the road not taken by the modernist, they reduced dialogue to the minimum and stopped developing it, he said everything you did can be done through dialogue and that is what he does. We have an innate ability to pick up on the internal state of the people we talk to, Gaddis exploits this and crafts his dialogue around it which allows him to develop the internal of far more characters than is possible with internal monologue and the like so we don't get such a myopic view of society as often happened with the modernist who tried to develop this but their reliance on explicit representation of the internal hobbled them.I don't find JR to be pointless or humorless and I am still well engaged with it, if I were reading 50 pages a day instead of 100-150 pages I probably would not have the issues with it that I do but the issues are minor and I am not forcing myself through it, it is fascinating. Few authors make me laugh as much as Gaddis, he had an amazing sense of humor, I just think he relies on it too much for keeping the reader engaged in JR, but as I said, I think this was a conscious decision on Gaddis' part and it works with what he is trying to accomplish.
>>25132617Good. Thanks for clarifying. That gets my hopes up for The Recognitions.
>>25131283FWIW I'm very much enjoying your JR blogs. Keep it up if you've got the juice.
>>25132617For Delillo, try Great Jones Street. A bit 'earthier' than the others.
Gaddis's favorite Elvis movie? Clambake.
It is kind of amazing how efficient the pure dialogue way is at some things. Characters who speak alike effortlessly get lumped into a context, half the time when a character shows up we have no idea who it is for at least a few lines if not a dozen and we pull in all that context as we try to figure out who it is and we don't even realize it; it takes him no extra work to draw parallels or make allusions or setup situations. Our being somewhat lost and having to play catch up during the beginning of most scenes as we figure out who the fuck is in the scene also lets him disregard time, next scene can be months later with no transition or explanation, we are already playing catch up figuring out who the fuck is talking so he can just drop a few subtle hints that a fair amount of time has passed and we process it effortlessly in the same way as we do figuring out character. But it is also terribly inefficient at some things and Gaddis still has to fall back on exposition at times to keep the book under 3k pages but he is far better at it than he was in TR and the exposition is never where we expect it; it is just a single line slipped in to nail down the context and not a long bit of hand holding like we get in TR where characters engage in lengthy steeple fingered discussions on theme or something close enough to theme it might as well be. I think a big part of its length is he wanted to make damn sure no one would call it a play that got out of hand and he wanted to explore the strengths and weaknesses of the dialogue novel, find its limits, find how it is different from the more traditional novel and the play, etc. He does a fair amount in rather traditional novelistic ways which which dialogue is not great for and there is no way he could write this thing without being aware of it. Really looking forward to see how he grows in his next two. >>25133214It is just something to do so coming here does not feel like a waste, most of what I do on lit is just post random things and have conversations with myself, most of it is ignored. Probably will finish it tonight and a fair chance I won't have anymore under 3k character things to say on it. >>25134278I just read what the used bookstore down the way provides, rare I actually seek out a book or order something.
The chapter where Otto is supposed to meet his dad is one of the most hilarious chapters in fiction. One of few times I’ve actually laughed out loud reading something.
>>25135370patrician taste desu
Sometimes I feel like I’m the reincarnation of Gaddis. Then I’ll think something stupid. Then I’ll know it even more. JR 2 is coming out 2030, don’t worry.
>>25135370Curiously, this dispatch (addressed to Olinda Harding of SITUATION VACANT semi-fame, Sep. '78--Willy you dog!) and a few others have been omitted from the revised edition of LETTERS. Plus the black cover leaves traces on my fingers. Buyer beware.
>>25139909That anon is reaching a conclusion which can't really be supported, all we know is that Clambake made an impression but we don't know what that impression is, he is rather terse and we don't have the containing context from Olinda's side.>Hey. Okay did you see this here film Clambake by this fella Presly?Apparently his archives are filled with brief letters like these, often written on postcards from tourist traps all up and down the east coast and having pictures of things like the world's largest bottle of maple syrup or horseshoe crabs with cutesy candy heart style sayings painted on their shells. Original edition included some of these brief notes, revised edition dropped them.
>>25140583I had the opportunity to examine parts of the Gaddis archives in 2009 and 2010, when there was renewed interest in his novels (mainly due to the Dalkey editions being prepared). Lots of fun stuff that didn't end up in Moore's collection, though I'll say he did a terrific job overall.
>>25141559Hey but okay that is really neat and all but like so? like all you really say is "I did thing" which is great and all but like what use of that is to me?
>>25141570Sorry, guy. Just shooting the shit. I didn't mean anything by it. Peace shalom.
>>25142803He was just asking you to offer some insights into Gaddis' archives. Haven't you read JR?
>>25141559Did you see the Stillman letters??
>>25145349Hello. No I did not. Tell you the truth I had my doubts even before that. Not a trace among the papers I saw. From what I understand Moore never discovered anything either. So either Sarah kept them (long shot) or they were lost/destroyed.
>>25146747Does this mean the trail has gone completely cold
>>25044548Biggest midwit in American letters
>>25149373trvke
>>25149373That's pynchon
>>25150111That's where you're wrong, bozo.
>>25150111Nah, he's not really in the discussion. He's more a PKD or Gibson style writer.
>>25151221Oh piss off
>>25150111>>25151221Why is Pynchon always called “reddit” now?
>>25151221It is interesting that those are the two you mention in this context, Gibson started out as a Pynchon larper and PKD almost certainly read and was influenced by The Recognitions.>that is why I mentioned themBullshit.
>>25151221Yeah, I also found those three are very similar. Themes, plots, prose, etc.
>>25150974>>25151221>>25152145It's without doubt pynchon. Big obscure books that appear intellectual but only appease college going men with a limited worldview
>>25152145Nearly 50% of all those who have ever read pynchon shill him on reddit
>>25152207i mean…yeah, that’s why i said it, that’s why this anon >>25152177 agreed with me…i’m not sure what kind of reply you’re looking for…
>>25152210You're thinking of DFW
>>25152455Pynchon has that quirky Rick and Morty pseud chungus prose though, DFW just has 20 year old depressed pseud writing. They’re both reddit, just the former more than the latter
>>25152455pynchon is just dfw but more schizophrenic and further in time making him more hip to the more self-aware among the midwits. Heck it arguably makes him worse than DFW because DFW's insight is less pretentiously delivered and more useful.It's always funny when postmodernists resort to games trying to mask their inability with rigorous philosophy.
Has this thread really been up for nearly 2 months now?
bump
>>25044548Weird, I thought this was a repost. Let's keep this thread running until summer.
>>25152145He's like that guy who made Buffy and the Avengers...Josh Evans or something. He fills his work with quips and pop culture references. All aging terribly of course.
I'm a redditor and I love Thomas Pynchon. Fuck all of you. We have good discussions over there. All you fuckheads do here is argue.
>>25152544>I'm a redditor>I love Thomas Pynchonseems redundant to say both
>>25152462>>25152538Please. Gaddis is so cute and contrived that he regularly veers into ESL territory.
>>25152145Because his writing is literally filled with "OH MY SCIENCE"
>>25153807It's not that he's "oh my science", it's that he references baby science and math all the time usually incorrectly. It just feels like he's a failed engineer who turned to writing. And other humanities people eat it up because they're bad at math. Luckily for me, I double-majored in literature and math, so I'm able to see how shit it is.
>>25153969He was rested in the army with an IQ of 190. That's about one in a billion. So I don't know if you're reading accurately.
>>25152145Other anons have made good points already, but his humour is also really awful, it comes across like a proto 9gag post sometimes. Though, I do think the opening line, and the final page of Gravity’s Rainbow are pretty amazing.
>>25153973*tested
>>25153969The guy failed freshman calculus. Anyone with a basic first-world education could see how wrong it is. You're not special for that.
>>25153969>usually incorrectlyYou either have not read Pynchon or can't read, good chunk of his math and science is made up or and what isn't is generally skewed by the characters, the time period's understanding, or builds off of a historical dead end. The math and science being wrapped up in occultism, alchemy, character's delusions, etc, should have clued you in.
>>25153969>>25153983oh no no no on stemcels...our favorite writer is being btfo...what do we do?!?!?!?
>>25153991DOINK XD us pinconexisters are hecking cultured okay?!
>>25153973>believing this bullshitLol. Most of the shit that pynchuds say is hearsay. There is no IQ test that legitimately goes above 160 and you can tell by his writing that he is nowhere near 160 either. It's bullshit just like V. selling 3 million copies in mass market paperback is bullshit.
Do people think when Pynchon writes a book he's not doing tons of research? That he doesn't have a textbook and notes next to his typrewriter. Do they think it's all just coming out of his head effortlessly?
>>25153996>400+ upvotesSo "pynchon = reddit" isn't a meme? It's real?
I don't think Pynchon's reddit, but I have to agree with these two anons, >>25153969 and >>25153987 in that it seems like he feels the need to fill his books with endless references just to appear intelligent.
>>25154270>two references in three dozen words
>>25105946Does this make Agape Agape the Megalopolis of Gaddis' Emersonian mind?
>>25154090https://www.reddit.com/r/ThomasPynchon/ abandon all hope, ye who enter.
Not one person can explain what's wrong with being "reddit'. If Pynchon is reddit, then I would be proud to be reddit too. At least he's achieved something.
I want to personally thank OP for making this thread. Watching reddit's golden boys Pynchon and Gaddis get their shit kicked in by 4chan is fucking wonderful. Thanks again, OP.
>>25154376Nothing, he just has an annoying and pretentious sense of humor and a certain group of people latch onto that, thinking him some sort of great genius. He’s the peak of middlebrow, I’ll give you that.
>a screaming comes across the skyThere you go, there’s the only good thing Pynchon ever wrote.
>>25154389It's funny when redditors pretend as if this is one of the more famous openings for a book. Constant shill campaigns for pynchon are embarrassing
>>25152145Every single mod on r/truelit is first and foremost a pynchon shill. That chicano chihuahua shills his substack dedicated to scribbling 2nd hand sources on his novels, and that soup retard does nothing but make shit posts about what books he is currently reading superficially enough to tie them back to pynchon
>>25154424It’s not a bad opening, but it’s nothing compared to anything written before World War II. The issue with Pynchon redditards is that they genuinely think he’s the greatest writer ever, have they read anyone who isn’t a postmodern American?
>>25154481The problem with them is that they only know of pynchon's rep from other agreeable sources and no one talks as big of a game as a pynchon-obsessed midwit. So much fanfiction. Take a look at the foreword for the Cambridge companion for pynchon. Mfers thought it was a shill pamphlet
>>25154481It's not a famous opening even post-war, let alone the actual classics
>>25154552Famous or not, it’s not as good as his acolytes think.
First time here since covid tourism made this place intolerable, you all just ignore anyone who has actually read the books in question so you an meme, don't you?
>>25155914Ah---Conceited Snark. My favorite flavor!
>>25155914In response to the Pynchon comments I presume?
>>25154351Truth be told I'm feeling a Jack on that one.
>>25154552It's easily the most famous opening in postwar burger lit, what are you smoking nigga
>>25160867Lol
>>25160867A pynchon related thing can never be the most famous anything. Stop browsing reddit
>>25160867>If you really want to hear about it, the first thing you'll probably want to know is where I was born, and what my lousy childhood was like…Is far more famous if, as people have already stated, you’re not a redditor.
>>25106956This post makes me nostalgic for last month…
>>25160867Go and watch scat porn Thomas, though I imagine at your age it’s pretty hard to get it up huh?
why does everyone have a stick up their ass about pynchon all of a sudden
>>25163063>all of a sudden
>>25160867>See the child
>>25154385>pretentious sense of humor
>>25163833That Project Hail Mary book is looking pretty good.
>>25163840It is
>>25163833Both Gaddis and Pynchon are total frat boys when it comes to humor. Gaddis is funnier.>>25163845>same font>same size>same fag
>>25163845This is awful. Why do people love this guy again?
>>25163848Why wouldn't it be the same fag? I'm taking screenshots of the parts I found funny
>>25163833>>25163845>>25163858Holy shit this is terrible. Is this Gaddis? No wonder OP was making fun of him. It reads like Ready Player One.
>>25163848Actually, they both go beyond the frat boy sense of humor but Pynchon takes it further and his Lovecraft pastiche is funnier than anything Gaddis has written. Gaddis does better over the length of the novel and verges on being a comedic writer, Pynchon uses contrast and swings to the extremes. >>25163858I failed to follow the thread, I thought you tagged your previous post and the "it is" was a rebuttal. AtD is Pynchon at his best as far as humor is concerned, and at almost everything else, narrator is not quite as strong. >>25163860Pynchon, GR. It is very much in character and does not excerpt well, you really need the context to get the jokes and all of those screenshots lack the context.
>He gestured now with a coffee cup that seemed a constant companion and, so rapidly it could’ve been spoken in a single breath, announced, “As to an interview with Cap’n Wells—I am in sympathy, sir, though far from being the Cap’n’s social secretary, yet I know it’s a common enough visitor’s desire, for the fame of Bulkley Wells has reached around the globe, or damn near, this week for example a delegation in all the way from Tokyo, Japan, under orders from the Emperor himself, if ya don’t meet with the Captain, boys, why don’t bother coming back, basically, ‘n’ then o’ course it’s out with that wackyzacky they all pack for committin their hari-kari with, you can imagine how old Cal Rutan would enjoy an incident like ‘at in his county. But it’s how desperate some folks’ll get, and not always foreigners neither, so what I must know from you now, is how unhappy are you likely to become, sir, if, heaven forfend, you should somehow fail to see the Cap’n this trip.” >Long habits of holding back information, especially from young women one was currently sparking, usually kicked in about this point. Once, out in the Uncompahgre Plateau, Frank, riding back from Gunnison or someplace, spotted a single storm cloud, dark and compact, miles away, and knew despite the prevailing sunlight and immensity of sky that no matter how he changed his direction now, he was going to cross paths with that cloud, and sure enough, less than an hour later it all grew dark as midnight, and there he was getting soaked and frozen and being momentarily deafened by lightning bolts that hit blasting all around, leaning along his horse’s neck to reassure him that everything was just peachy, though being a range horse the critter had seen far worse and was presently trying to reassure Frank. Tonight in the Albany, Frank could see that Wren had arrived exactly here after unnumbered miles and Stations of the Cross—in the light off the great mirror her face was a queerly unshadowed celestial blue, that of a searcher, it seemed to Frank, who had come as far as she must to ask what he would be least willing to answer. He understood that there were such presences abroad in the world, and that although one may live an entire life without intersecting one, if it should happen, it became a solemn obligation to speak when spoken to.
>>25163892At first I thought this was Pynchon but the prose in the 2nd passage is far too good for him so it must be Gaddis
>>25164434If you can't identify who wrote those excerpts with 100% certainty you have no idea what constitutes good prose and/or have never read them. >b-b-but Pynchon was mistaken for Gaddis!Not really, one reviewer suggested it with rather flimsy evidence. His "review" is just a plot summary with at least a third of the article dedicated to his poorly supported conjecture.
>>25163833>>25163845>>25163858>>25163892Have never read Gaddis. Never will. Reading these long form reddit posts, I'm assured I've made the right decision.
>>25164434>>25165130They’re awful anyway.
How powerful is Joyce that this thread has been up for 2 months?It might be one sperg self-bumping
>>25165145>Have never read Gaddis. Never will. Reading these long form reddit posts, I'm assured I've made the right decision.It's been years since I've read The Recognitions, and I remember it being really hilarious, but reading those excerpts...wow...they say as you grow older you view books differently, but I had no idea I would find that kind of humor so sophomoric.
>>25165130What difference does it make really though? Gaddis is proto Pynchon in the sense that they’re both reddit tier retards with obnoxious prose.
>>25165222It's pretty clearly just claude talking to itself
>>25165130One reviewer put it on paper and many agreed. You'd have to be dumb to think it was for no reason. It's not like pynchon has some distinctive style of writing or anything that people should be able to tell apart in one glance. That's just his fans being obnoxious after memorizing every passage from every book and expect us to do the same.
WHY THE FUCK IS THIS SHITTY GAY THREAD STILL UPKILL IT PLEASE
>>25045023well i guess that answers that question.
>>25165800u mad?
>>25165800This is going to reach the bump limit. You can cry about this, but that’s all you can do.
>>25167741>>25167744These faggots really think we’re going to stop trashing their gaddis and pynchon shit? lmao at their lives.
>>25167830the fire rises brother. the more we shit on gaddis, pynchon, amd maybe could add dfw to the list, the more their little acolytes will leave. if we can keep threads like this one bumped and swarm the front page, then they'll have to scamper off to reddit and we can discuss real literature here.probably will need to get more threads up though. at least one dedicated for pynchon instead of putting him in here, and then maybe another for dfw.
>>25167858Or maybe we will just respond in kind and start shitting up your threads.
>>25167858No, let's keep pynhcon in here for now, that what seems to be getting the most traction. After this thread reaches the bump limit then let's think of splitting them off: one Gaddis, one Pynchon, one DFW...maybe Corncob could be added to the list?
See, DFW is too easy a target, so honestly I don’t think it’s worth it, Infinite Jest is an expletive on /lit/ these days, it won’t be as fun. I’ll call you on Corncob though. It’s good to see Gaddis getting thrashed left and right though, he doesn’t get it enough. But yes, Corncob, best course of action here.
>>25167957Meant for >>25167870
>>25167870Yeah, those are all the big authors plotfags read to sound intelligent. I would volunteer to do the Gaddis thread, but OP started this movement so he should have first dibs.I'll volunteer to do the Pynchon one.
>>25167957>See, DFW is too easy a target, so honestly I don’t think it’s worth it,Don't worry, brother, we got more than enough volunteers. He'll probably be the most popular one considering he's the worst writer of the bunch.
>>25168002True. I’m quite glad that the /lit/ opinion on him has changed for the worse
>>25167957>>25167999>>25168002What authors do you guys read?
>>25169379Rabelais, Potocki, Bely, Joyce, Lautreamont, Shakespeare, Spenser, Donne, Mallarmé, Zola, Hugo, Rimbaud, Milton, Blake, Hölderlin, Melville, Proust.
>>25169396Potocki is great and very underrated, he's a proto-Pynchon of sorts given his fragmentation, esotericism and preoccupation with science.I don't like Blake much, his verse is sloppy.
>>25169396Uh huh....in that case, second question: how old are you? You have the taste of a bi-twink 17 year old
>>25169404>Potocki is great and very underrated, he's a proto-Pynchon of sorts given his fragmentation, esotericism and preoccupation with science.Agreed, also, he excels in scope, which is something I’ll give to Pynchon too even if I’m not massively fond of him>his verse is sloppy.I enjoy Blake, mainly his prophetic poems. He’s nowhere near as good as Milton or Shakespeare but I always found him entertaining for being the one to make me appreciate poetry as an art
>>2516941134, not that it’s relevant. I’ll admit to being a bit of a faggot though.
There’s a pynchon thread right now and it is an absolute trainwreck. Is that you all doing that? If so, bravo. Maybe the whole antipostmodernism thing OP started actually has legs.
>>25169429Uhhh… n-no…
>>25169429that's just an average pynchon thread
>>25169437More like the average nu-/lit/ thread. Every thread is a shitshow now: Dosto, Melville, Joyce, Nabokov etc.Either that, or it dies with <10 replies.
>>25169429>There’s a pynchon thread right now and it is an absolute trainwreck. The one with the idiot trying to understand GR or the one where the OP likes to imagine Slothrop is black fucks a bunch of white women?
>>25169420Being as wrapped up in what people like as you are is something that most people grow out of in their early 20s, managing to make it to 34 and still behaving and acting as you are itt (like a teenager), is bleak.
If y'all had any stones you'd go after the big game. Faulkner, Dostoyevsky. Melville.Fight the real enemy.
If OP is doing Gaddis then I can take care of the shitting on Pynchon thread. Hell, maybe we can have two or three of those up at once if others wanted to jump in.
>>25169939Don’t get all hostile just because I dissed your favourite writer. It’s all in good fun, I’m still allowed that. I don’t actually mind Gaddis or Pynchon, don’t be such a humourless loser
