Ἀχαιῶν δερκόμεν' ὄσσε edition>τὸ πρότερον νῆμα·>>25006897>Μέγα τὸ Ἑλληνιστί/Ῥωμαϊστί·https://mega dot nz/folder/FHdXFZ4A#mWgaKv4SeG-2Rx7iMZ6EKw>Mέγα τὸ ANE·https://mega dot nz/folder/YfsmFRxA#pz58Q6aTDkwn9Ot6G68NRg>Work in progress FAQhttps://rentry dot co/n8nrkoAll Classical languages are welcome.
>Ἥφαιστος Ἴδης λαμπρὸν ἐκπέμπων σέλαςwhat's he cooking?
Wonder what the threadly category will be
>>25064869ohhhhh so it's 69 in this case I thought it referred to the thread's OP? rolling anyway
I only study latin, but to me ancient greek seems to have a more beautiful sonority; what do you think
Caecilius est in horto
>>25065006>Epistola Christoferi Colom de insulis nuper repertis>incole utriusque sexus nudi semper incedunt, quemadmodum eduntur in lucem, præter aliquas feminas, que folio frondeve aliqua aut bombicino velo pudenda operiunt, quod ipse sibi ad id negocii parantoh god the images that flashed in my mind...
>>25065158Atque Anonymus EST in IVchano
>>25065096I might be biased but....yes, especially in the right mouth
How much can I learn by just reading original texts alongside their translations while skipping grammar lessons completely?
>>25065096I speak Latin to the Gods, Greek to philosophers, Oscan to the people, and Etruscan to my horse.
>>25065596with willpower and time everything's possible but you'll probably burn out quickly, this kind of thing I guess can realistically work for very similar languages e.g Italian learning Spanish
>>25065596Try learning Italian with Dante and Petrarch first.
>>25064869rolling
>>25065522would you say that there's something sweet about it? or do others think so as well? So it seems to me, although I have no clue why
>>25065596Sisiphus's task! haha
>>25065606lol
>>25064869Roll>>25065006That’s not what I intended when I made the images; but I can see how saying “OP” would be taken as the thread OP. Kind of retarded of me in hindsight.>>25065164I’ve read the letter before specifically because of making these tables lol
Descartes ended up being shockingly readable. I think one thing post-classical Latin has going for it, as a second language for everyone using it, is that no one tries to flex by using obscure words, so it makes really advanced philosophy surprisingly accessible even if you can otherwise only read the easiest prose like the gospels.English has this weird disease, originating from poor grammar education, where we intentionally utilize jargon to make our work less readable, to come off more impressive.Which ascends to yet higher planes of absurdity when the illiterati, unskilled in their craft, include basic semantic errors in their purposely poor prose.So you get ESL foreign attorneys writing gibberish that no one can read, and that the attorney hopes no one bothers to read anyways. On top of this, their writing still typically outstrips the average native lawyer.Basically it means the lawyers all write like jargon-bots and the academics all write in a mix of jargon and platitudes, because none of them can write anyways.I think I am years off from having enough of a grasp on grammar to really be able to consistently express my thoughts eloquently, but Latin has helped somewhat.
>>25065987idk maybe it's the pitch accent, when done properly
>>25065158ὁ Καικίλιός ἐστιν ἐν τῷ κήπῳ
>>25065596Not much if the translation is from Loeb’s and antiquated as fuck. Check out this sentence from Daphnis and Chloe for instance as taken by Sir George Thornley. “Mytilene estin politeia Kai megales Kai Kalle.”“ Mitylene is a City in Lesbos, and by ancient Titles of honour, it is the Great, and Fair Mitylene.”
>>25065596Loeb’s shills always say Loeb’s is perfect for learning Greek because they use literal translations so imagine my horror when the translation is some public domain crap from 1600 equivalent to Longus what Alexander Pope was to the Iliad. In retrospect I think I should’ve just read the penguin classics edition.
>Polis esti tes Lesbou Mytilene megale Kai kale.Here. I got home and this is the exact sentence as written down which has been rendered thus by Thornely. How is this not embarrassing to Loeb’s shills???? That’s like using Pope’s Iliad or Jowett’s Homer. Loeb’s is supposed to be the perfect teaching apparatus for newbies…
Whelock's book quality is so low I cant read it, I'll try the epub version and if the formatation is not too messed up I'll continue, but in the case it sucks is there a similar book but with a proper digital format?
>>25066945labora piger
>>25066874My hope is eventually to just use Latin-Greek texts to dodge this entirely.
>>25066945huh?
>>25066982It sucks right? its not worth to make a philologist work this early, but idk maybe in a smaller screen it may look okayishThe epub version seems quite good contrary to my expectation
Has anyone here studied a language that doesn't really have a written tradition? I'd like to hear your experiences.
>>25067642>/clg/You have the wrong languages thread. You should go to /int/.
>>25067693Thanks, but I'm in the appropriate thread. I'm interested in studying Ojibwe, I'm just not sure if it's worth foregoing my time spent on Latin.
>>25066979Yeah that is sound advice. I assume Loeb’s copies of more popular works are more up to standard ie Homer and Plato and similar that probably have more critical attention.I just see no possible way for a student of Greek to find any use for a translation like this.>>>Polis esti tes Lesbou Mytilene megale Kai kale.>>> Mitylene is a City in Lesbos, and by ancient Titles of honour, it is the Great, and Fair MityleneHow are you supposed to learn anything from a dual language edition like this? I feel like the money I spent was entirely wasted.
>>25067733All you need to know for Ojibwa is “how much cost fire water” then you’ll be set for their entire cultural footprint.Srs, fuck off with your stupid nonsense.
>>25067833>3. You will not post any of the following outside of /b/:>[...]>b. RacismThat said, it is true that Ojibwe is not a classical language.
I’d love to learn Xhosa-influenced Tagalog and Navajo Pidgin with revised pronouncation in Classical form. What are some good starting places?
>>25067846Classical Jamaican Patois Bombaclat on da ting>>25067803Yes I was quite disappointed in my copy of Bede when it arrived to find how nonliteral the translation is. I’ve gotten much more consistent value from parallels of the Douay-Rheims to the Vulgate because bible autists 400 years ago put a lot more autism into their literalism than classicists 100 years ago. Unfortunately that’s limited to a register that doesn’t really open up the golden age for me so I need to just keep grinding Roma Aeterna, a vocab list, and sharpening my formal grammar.
>throws your grammar book in the trashYou're welcome.
>>25068986This man’s straightforward presentation of input-oriented ideas has enabled me to read classical, medieval, and renaissance authors, many with relative ease, after about a year of 30 minutes with LLPSI a day and 30 minutes of other reading, while maintaining top grades in law school.The reason his ideas and advice seem out there is because, firstly, he is an autodidact, and secondly, because he aims his advice at autodidacts.Also he talks the retarded way he does because he talks like a good language teacher talks generally, i.e. overexaggerated, slow, clear.At this point I believe his haters are largely academics that can’t handle the autodidact being popular, or autists that hate his voice, or both. He gets the most hate on discord, which tells you something.It was really funny when he had that spat with the Orberg foid and other smaller degree-holding Latin YouTubers like found in antiquity were A-Logging him in the threads.
>>25069077there's an archive with those books
>>25068986>don't study grammar. just write it down a 100 times. i call this the ranieri method™
>>25069173>reciting a paradigm that fits on a post-it and reading 10x as much as you spend reciting paradigms is the same as working through wheelock
>bro just watch my videos about Aemilia in horto est
>>25069239Well, I wrote >>25069077, and I actually never used his audiobook because I wanted to focus on ecclesiastical pronunciation, so I used a totally different channel’s recordings.
>>25066990it's not amazing but unreadable? age porro
>>25069239I did latin in school (unlike probably 99% of the people here) and we always turned that "Caecilius est in horto" sentence into "Caecilius est in Metella" lmao
>>25064712Other than Oxford Classical Texts, is there any other publisher that prints in ancient Greek only? No translation, or vocabulary.
>Wheelock's Latin>LegentibusLet me guess, you need more?
>>25070343TeubnerSome authors and works are available from various university presses but you'll have to look into that on your own, most are long out of print and I only find them second hand.
n.b. Teubners, at least the ones I have, don't use the subscript iota convention, which I kinda like, it gives it a slightly more archaic feeling
>>25069077I do think Grammar translation has its use, especially for adult learners. I will, however, make extensive use of LLSPI and other input for my children. They shouldn't have to touch wheelock.
>>25064706im thinking of learning either latin or greek for the sake of reading philosophical works. Which one should i learn if i study on my own?
>>25070670eh I mean it's also kinda up to you, ideally both, because we start with the Greeks, but anything medieval from the west will be in Latinin antiquity ancient Greek kinda obviously mogs Romans and the latter basically knew it
virtute praeco omnes in hoc filo
Is there a program for memorizing lines of text like linebyline.app that I can install and run locally?
>>25070662Well, of course it has its uses. I have a grammar book and I keep it for reference/explanation when I want to look something up. I’ve probably read every chapter of it at least once atp, it just never was my way of actually practicing my Latin, more like I would double check the pluperfect clause table in 2 minutes and then read for an hour. Also, when I want to get into output I intend on going back through the translation exercises as a refresher/review of all the concepts anyways so that I can be prepped to do Bradley’s Arnold.
>>25070928I saw this article by Charles E. Bennett (not for the first time) printed in the Memoria Press magazine/catalog.>The question as to the educational worth of any study must always be a pertinent one. If Latin is not of fundamental importance in the high school curriculum, then large numbers of students are making a prodigious error in pursuing the subject, and the sooner we understand this, the better for our civilization.https://www.memoriapress.com/articles/justification-for-latin/
I just read beowulf and now I want to learn old English as fast as possible please God someone help me. Is it even possible to learn it without taking all my life also do they sell beowulf in its original on its own? No side by side.
ἀδελφοί... βούλομαι σύν κόρῃ εἶναι. :(
>>25071104Naturally, which is why it so dramatically fell from grace as the purpose of learning Latin shifted from, well, knowing Latin, to a humanistic mental discipline for training the mind by forcing yourself to memorize 2500 inflectional endings (I believe my source on this is Diederiche’s papers from the 30s on reading) before ever trying to read.
>>25071121Check the infographic in this post. >>25069077 Just grab something entry level from one of the paths, or from all three, that appeals to you, and just start marching down the chart. It’s the ancestral form of your own mother tongue, it will absolutely not take you your whole life, or even remotely as long as learning a close modern language like Spanish did.
>>25071254Spanish is closer to English than old English is.its definitely easier
>>25071261Who gives a shit. Meaningfully contribute besides, or at least in addition to, needling about details or kill yourself
Not strictly classical language, but: Are there 'hooked on phonics' equivalents for other tongues? Greek, latin, old church slavonic, norwegian, finnish..
>>25071262What? Did you reply to the right post
Translation challenge:EasyWe're sending it soon.Don't try to be a smartass.Are the new slaves worth their price?MediumIf my cousin does't find his beloved dog, he won't take that well at all.The law stated that whoever killed a pig during the festival was to be fined heavily.He kept asking himself if it had been better if he had never departed from his homeland.HardDuring the eleventh year of the truce between the two city states the bastard scion of the old king, unhappy with the circumstances, devised a false-flag in such manner: leaving for the lands to the east with an excuse, he secretly brought back with himself a small but highly trained mercenary army which he employed to attack the king's palace and simulate a direct enemy assault. Having killed the king, he betrayed the mercenaries by having their fleeing ship sunken by a traitor on board, thus hiding his actions and breaking the truce as he wished.BonusDescribe the main reasons and/or circumstances that led you to start learning your TL.
>>25071209ἠθεῖ' ἦ μάλα δὴ φύγαδε τρέπει αὐτάς τὸ Ἑλληνίζειν
I thought classical japanese was just like an older form of modern japanese but apparently most of it is written with native japanese vocabularyThat makes it a bit more interesting to me now
>>25071286Obviously. Fuck you, you quibbling prat. If we were face to face I would’ve slapped you across the face for your “correction.”
So the Virgilius standard just used ɛ and ɔ, quality speaking, It seems to be a quite recent controversy, what is the /clg/ way to Latin's classical pronunciation?
How best to learn greek, anons?
>>25071471since quantity matters the most although I do try to follow the open vowel system I'm not too consistent and mostly my native Romance language will determine the quality if I'm not consciously thinking about it
>>25071471Linguisticam non multum intellego, sed "v" dico ut Anglice "v" sine dentibus superioribus tangentibus labrum inferius—ad differentiam de "w".
>>25071533youtube.com/playlist?list=PLE6M-e2_CKhlxIqcxwSh4WfyuD7AA402XIt's an adaptation of Greek: An Intensive Course, which is a fantastic textbook by Hansen. Get it too, and the lexicon. You'll want additional reading though.
>>25071288Mox id mittimus.Age ne callidum te iactaveris.Bonine pretii sunt servi novi?Si dilectum canem non inveniat consobrinus pessime se habiturus.Lex erat cuiquam porcum necasse die festo mulctam gravem dici.Volutabat secum num se melius habuisset si patriam numquam reliquisset.Octavo indutiarum inter duo urbes anno spurius veteris regis filius rebus constitutis infelix consilium cepit paci turbandae hoc: post profectum ad orientem causa ficta arrepta rediit secum ducens secreto paucas sed validas copias quibus impetum in regiam facto simularet hostium incursionem. Rege obtruncato copias has interemit eorum navigio fugam converso per proditorem submerso, quibus actis efficit ut et sua gesta celaret et indutias falleret.Annis abhinc sex aut septem linguam theodiscam incohavi discere, paulo post vero, fortasse uno aut duobus annis, cum diligerem hoc genus discendi et iam satis grammaticis theodiscae processum me ducerem ac, Italus cum sim, oportere rerer quamvis pauca latinitatis principia me scire nullis in ludis tunc exploratis, constitui operam dare latinae, quamquam temporis spatium mihi necessariis perficiendis deficeret in dies otio hoc liberali fruenti.
>>25064706What do you use for spell checking ancient greek on linux?
>>25071533the method I am using is traditional grammar textbook + reader. that is to say that I am using Mastronarde's Introduction to Attic Greek, and the natural-method book 'Λογος'.I have to say that this combination is truly making me a greek-learning power house. definitely recommend.
>>25072663I plan to even use this method with other languages. for example>latinWheeler's Latin + Lingua Latina per se Illustrara, or later Latin via Ovid>frenchsome grammar resource + Etude progressive de la langue francaiseand similar for other languages, when I get to them.>old englishGuide to Old English + Osweald Beara
>>25072692I’d say it’s ideal. With my latin experience I read through as much as I could get through of le francais par le methode nature and it was really shocking how much I retained throughout a trip to france after only a few days of intensive reading for an hour or two. Could read most of all signs/plaques, bought some philosophy and psych books and found I could understand them, etc.My issue is that with the non latin language I actually want to learn there’s not such an ironclad reader.
>>25072964What language?
>>25071209καὶ μήν ἥδιστ' ἐστιν μισγεσθ' ἐν φιλοτήτι γυναίκι
Just ordered Loeb's Anabasis and I can't wait to #inputmax
The best thing I ever did for myself was delete Anki and trust myself to learn vocab through reading. I wasted so many hours in that stupid app.
>>25073627and I just never could to put up with it
>>25073627>>25073656It’s fair to say it doesn’t work for a lot of people, and it’s also fair to say most ways of using it are quite tedious and inefficient for language learning, and definitely take away from reading practice, for which anki is only a supplement anyways.Best practices include something limited in scope, like stuff for a particular book so you can narrowly focus on conquering a particular resource, ideally incorporating full sentences. I have gotten a ton of value out of it for Latin only because there is a familia romana vocab deck out there with tags by chapter. So I could take a chapter that has 50-90 new vocab, and after reading the chapter I could blast through them in about 5 minutes as a low effort vocab supplement, and I found this massively upped the speed at which I could advance through LLPSI chapters, and moreover how comprehensive I could be in my coverage and retention. The main flaw was the lack of sample sentences, which would have then aided with reading flow and acquiring grammar in a way vocab cards don’t. With a deck like that I would have been able to much more firmly acquire the grammar, and probably would have had nearly 100% comprehension by the first reread instead of having to keep revisiting chapters.The second anki feels like it’s wasting time or taking it away from reading is the second someone should turn it off and read.
will hoarding Loebs pay off in a relatively near apocalyptic setting? Do you think these editions will hold any value if we come close to that point? Feel like these are the only books worth collecting aside from other major more modern works.
>>25074261You can have mine since I can’t use it for any language learning uses >>25067803Using Loeb’s is like trying to decipher Homeric Greek using Alexander Pope. Fruitless
>>25072964yeah tell us, because there might exist something obscure. I know there is czech nature method book, so if there's that, there could also be what you are looking for
>>25074261Loebs are a dime a dozen. Outside of a few rarer ones you can find them all over the place.
>>25074458Honestly you people laugh at Loeb hoarders, but you really don't have enough Loebs yourselves. The average person reads 1 Loeb per day. If you have a family of 4, that's 28 Loebs a week. Over 100 a month. Loebs will be worth their weight in gold in a few months, because everyone needs them.
>>25074568i don't get it. who is this post parodying?
>>25074673That’s originally a copy pasta about hoarding toilet paper.
>>25072968>>25074311Japanese. Chinese actually has a pretty good reader series from the 60s called Defrancis Chinese paired with equally good textbooks. After posting the other day I went and found some old massive Japanese textbooks so we’ll see how those turn out.
>>25074722I suppose you already know Comprehensible Input Wiki?
>>25074727Yeah and in general my problem is that for Japanese I’m spoiled for CI. With Latin or Mandarin I have access to a single textbook/reader combo that teaches me complete grammar and gets to an intermediate vocab with as little fluff as possible, so I can make a ton of progress with a relatively low amount of study time. I mean a very specific kind of textbook that works for me. Genki for example has way too many exercises and cute pictures, and not enough input, so it doesn’t work for me.Like, LLPSI is just sitting down and reading a bunch of Latin. Defrancis Chinese is the same, literally just read 10 pages of Chinese in the main book, then 10 in the reader, so on and so forth until suddenly you can read Chinese.
>>25071121>>25071254Beowulf is very difficult because the grammar is fucked and it employs a lot of words that you only encounter once. The academic consensus is that you can get reading proficiency with prose in about a semester of intensive study. Work your way through Peter Baker's glossary (make flash cards or whatever) to get a basic vocabulary of high frequency words, and download Baker's "magic sheet" with the conjugations and paradigms. With the magic sheet, begin working your way through Baker's website anthology and doing translations. You can click on each word to see the normalized, infinitive or singular nominative word form and the part of speech. As you do more translations, you will slowly and steadily build your reading proficiency.
>>25074756HAPAX LEGOMENON
>>25074756>translations
>>25074761Yes, translations. The tried and true, foolproof method that people have been using to learn dead languages for hundreds of years. The method that all the top scholars used to learn the language, and the method they use to teach the language to their graduate students. Alternatively, if you're too lazy and stupid for that, you could be a little reddit pussy loser and try to read about bears in forests using a totally unproven, HEAVILY regularized and anachronistic book written by a failed academic. The choice is yours, my friend!
>>25074950If by "hundreds of years" you mean "about 200, out of the hundreds of millennia humans have been learning languages" yeah.
>>25074950>hundreds of years>1850>collapsed the tottering size of extant proficient latin users in one generationNice “traditional” approach you modernist android bugman.
>>25074950People who fetishize “the way professors do it” to this degree are either pseuds who expose their own lack of familiarity with post-graduate academia or “successful” academics that have failed in all ways that aren’t the specific cap feather that is the credential itself.
>>25071121If you want a method that is clearly backed by high quality sources for input which no respectable pre-70s academic would seriously question, and you have enough grounding in at least the gospels (bonus points if you have read them in Greek or Latin) I can highly recommend the right path on the infographic. It’s the tried and true approach for Europeans learning languages since the 2nd century. A lot of the burst of CI creation in the past 20 years can reasonably be attributed to the loss of scripture as a common linguistic core.I figure the scholars of the Wessex court and King Alfred himself are decent enough sources for Old English literature.Even if your familiarity with the gospels sucks, you can still make a lot of easy progress this way. Much of the content will still be familiar, and they’re intentionally very easy to read. Considering how much of the OE corpus is homilies, this is also the best way to open that up.
>>25074761Wait is there something wrong with reading translations alongside the text all of a sudden? I thought that's supposed to be one of the best ways of absorbing the language
>>25075361No. Parallel translations is a CI approach. What that anon probably took issue with was the recommendation to do your own translations, line by line.
>>25075405I would think that could be good to try too though? Learning how to actually use the language and all
long live translation!
if translation is so cool why haven't y'all done the challenge? checkmate
>>25075456Learning to understand a language, and learning how to transverbalize it into your own language and then understand that, are two different skills.
>>25064712κλῆρον πάλλω
>>25075295>>25074963Grammar-translation has been around for a lot longer than 250 years - where are you both getting this idea? >>25075303You mean the specific feather cap of reading, writing, and conducting research in the language? It's not rocket science dude. You don't need a "linguist-approved" shortcut. It's just sweat and time. The reddit fixation with "input" and these purportedly "natural" learning approaches are trying to apply modern linguistic ideas about teaching Spanish to little grade schoolers to a dead, convoluted language that nobody speaks anymore. The spelling is a complete mess, the grammar is tortured and varies regionally (and temporally). These shortcut approaches will teach you something highly regular and modern that apes OE and will let you chip in on the 'cord but it won't equip you with important, useful skills that will support your interest in literature. The OE corpus is tiny. It's way way smaller than latin. There's not even enough material for you to read and build your wordhoard "naturally." That automatically should be a very strong signal that the people who claim to have "learned" the language this way are full of shit. Colin Gorrie, I imagine, learned his OE by memorizing a fuck ton of grammatical paradigms. He is well positioned to do this given his training in linguistics. With this "CI only" crap you are being sold something that he himself cannot - and has not - done. It's a fools errand and anyone who has any formal training in the language will tell you so.
>>25075566οἴμοι, ἴσω ἀριθμώ; πάλλω αὖθις >>25064712
>>25075571>φ λόγοι ἀναγνωστέοι τοῦ Πλωτίνουὦ τάλαν ἐγώ!
>>25075569I'm not any of the people you talked to and So what do you want me to do? Kill myself? I can't get into any university no matter how bad. I want to study OE and there's nothing for me. Great man thanks. Guess I'll die.Fuck else am I supposed to study? Latin? No way.
>>25071288Id missuri sumus.Avertas pseudocalldum esse conari.Bonum'st servorum novorum pretium?and now I got lazy
>>25075599See >>25074756
Love me Vergil.Love me Pliny.Hate Ovid.Simple.
>>25075498If you understand a language you should be able to write in it
>>25075899What does that have to do with what I said?
>>25075899retard alert
>>25075569>You mean the specific feather cap of reading, writing, and conducting research in the language?I once read a corpus study paper where the author, who has 20 years of experience, claimed smooth reading ability in Latin, defined as knowing 6,670 words, was “virtually impossible” and he questioned whether anyone who could sight read Latin really existed.
>>25075599Ignore him. The corpus is still several million words, and there’s really no reason one shouldn’t focus on wessex dialect as a learner anyways. Like all grammarfags he wants to exaggerate the difficulty of everything.
>>25075569>The reddit fixation with "input" and these purportedly "natural" learning approachesYou’re strawmanning my position as being input-reddit, which is that I generally disagree with telling absolute beginners they should do any language via translating line-by-line. Grammar study absolutely has its role, and translation exercises do to, as a means of teaching composition. But grammar study in such an exhaustive manner is really the study of the ars scribendi et dicendi, and not of the ars legendi, and therefore it is best left for after basic-intermediate reading ability in the core style of a dead language is achieved (like the Wessex dialect, which has an extensive enough and approachable corpus). None of my ideas on this front are novel or modern, they are time-tested and proven. Your chosen ideas are those of the academics who presided over the death of Latin as a vital second language, because they simply do not work very well.My ideas work better than your ideas. No I’m not going to provide a source. You’re an idiot that flexes other peoples’ credentials like that means anything, and when there is plenty of debate among academics on this topic.
>>2507559990% of the Old English corpus is in Late West Saxon, which was a koine promoted by Alfred the Great, and which covers virtually all major works of literature. It contains millions of words. If you are “learning Old English” you are learning LWS practically speaking.
what even is there to even like read in old english? how many times can you re read beowulf and wonder over single appearance words like hwaet? even something like norse would be more valuble just learn latin and greek its not like you can pagan larp the written oldenglish is christian
>>25075932they don't make them like they used to
Es quid ēs.
>>25076108non recte dicis. dicitur aut 'es qui es' aut 'est quod est'
>>25076122Gratias ago. "Quod" pronomen relativum esse oblitus eram. Sed cur "qui"? Estne accusativum illud "what" in "You are what you eat"?
>>25075583I barely got to the end of chapter 3 of the Enneads, this shit is incomprehensible even in translation if you don't have a solid background already
>>25076610"... qui es" wouldn't be grammatically correct because it should be accusative. You're using the verb ēsse (to eat), not esse (to be). "... quod ēs" would be better.
>>25064706hey guys this is a semir serious question. I have always been interested in sanskrit and wanted to learn it. I also know that im lazy as shit and often just lack motivation. recently tho I bought The Cambridge Introduction to Sanskrit and wanted to make an effort and learn as much as possible and get a bit more disciplined. does anyone here have worked with that book and could mybe give me some other niffty sources like youtube videos or whatever they used to learn sanskrit?
>>25076669I sort of wish there was a set of readings for latin from "I just read a few pages of wheelocks and want baby books" to "I would like the literary complexity equivalent of an academic attempting to justify purely through sophistry why studying the left leg of a specific breed of tick is worth tenure".
>>25076002There's an Old English 'Paradise Lost' called Genesis BYou've got the Junius manuscript, Exeter Book, Nowell Codex (Beowulf) and Vercelli Book which contain the main poetic corpus Otherwise it's mostly just Christian prose texts and a lot of translationsOld Norse has far more literature and a lot of it is a lot easier to read, I recommend Old Norse
>>25077461I'd recommend the Gesta Romanorum for a wide variety of medieval stories of varying length and complexity.Also search for Narrationes Faciles by John Piazza on the internet archive, they are big compilations of Latin readings about mythology and history pulled from various textbooks. They are good for early-mid intermediate level.
>>25077461You sort of have to design that for yourself. After my first few LLPSI chapters I did the gospels, that was the traditional first narrative in the middle ages and it’s some of the easiest latin to read, then as I got into Roma Aeterna I branched out into more classical authors like Caesar. It’s pretty simple though, you just say “what’s the easiest authentic latin that legitimately interests me” and then once you finish that work to your satisfaction you introduce a work that is a little more difficult, so on and so forth.
>>25075935it's crazy that we have several million words of old english. I think of (especially in the early middle ages) England as a backwater. How does that compare to the old german corpus?
>>25078051King Alfred’s standardization was really key to this. England also boasted an impressive Latin output well before King Alfred, with scholars such as Bede and Alcuin of York. It was a relative political and economic backwater, but one with a strong written tradition.
There were no lower case letters in ancient GreekNo apostrophes to signify aspiration just a big juicy HLearning to write Attic Greek with byzantine script is truly the most blatant form of anachronism of them all
>>25069077He sounds gay
We all know that latin and Greek takes the first two spots, but what's the third most popular classic language in these threads?
>>25078205good question, anon, I want to know as well
>>25078161The didn't use spaces either who cares
>>25078161RVRSVS NUNC DICO these languages were all "LINGUA is LOQUENS (speaking) and all writing (and thus, also, reading) are SEMPER, SEMPER just incidental and periphery" so to MENTIS VOBIS its all natural that these things that may seem necessary to us are not to them. VIDE at current persian or arabic script in use, NON NOSCES which of the vowels they even are. >>25075599CUR NON LATINAM LINGUAM DISCAM? ILLA VERE PULCHRA BONAQUE'ST.>>25075498a language is a unique World all on its own, each stands on its own right; to ~translate~ is like trying to bridge two different isekai realms that always have jarring differences.>>25065606DIS IMMORTALIS Avestam LOQUOR, AC Parsigam PHILOSOPHIS, AC Persiam POPULIS, AC Arabem EQUO MEO.>>25065096CREDO its because of the aspirated consonants (even when it's pronounced as modern, the f, th, etc) ; even without pitch ATTENDO its PULCHER. latin didnt aspirate. (still PULCHER anyway too)
>>25078205looks to be classical Chinese
>>25078477You've gotten some of my attention typing in lengletish like that.
>>25070395>TeubnerThe original Teubner editions seemed pretty pricey, and I already dropped 150 this month on Oxford books. But I found a local publisher that offers Teubner reproductions close to cost.
CAVETE JUDAEAE
>>25075935Just to be clear, you don't read or speak OE, correct?
>>25079588They are pricey. I prefer OCT for that reason.>$150I hope you bought used and got several
>>25079588If you want cheaper you'll have to make some concessions in terms of facing translations or poor critical apparatus. Reclam has super cheap pocket editions with facing German translations
>>25079816I got a full plato set in top condition. (shipping included)>>25079820I found really, really cheap. Like 5$ per book cheap. It's from a local publisher in Europe. They're teunber copies with different covers. I'll order a few the next couple of days and post pictures.
>>25079637Specifically Jewish women, not men?
>>25079910JUDAEA PATRIA JUDAEORUM
>>25079954Ah, didn't realize it could take the dative.
>>25079963The classic latinist pitfall of assuming the other person fucked up their basic grammar instead of digging for an interpretation that makes sense. Happens to the best of us.
>>25080142To be fair, "Jewish women, beware" is also perfectly coherent statement.
>>25080142Remember to follow the principle of charity, assume the author is intelligent. You should interpret their writing in the way that is the most coherent and makes the most sense (when compared to their other writing and ideas)
>>25080146Absolutely lol, that’s just not what was meant by >>25079910.>>25080202100%.
>>25079637AMA MULIERES IUDAEASAMA MULIERES ROMANESAMA OMNES MULIERES UNIVERSI MUNDIAMA MULIERES IMAGINIS FABULAE>>25079075DISCE LATINAM LINGUAM AUT ... Aut... um nvm, AGE QUIDQUID TE PLACET.
>>25071288πέμψωμεν αὐτὸ τάχαμὴ σ' εὔχου πάνσοφον εἶναιἆρ' ἄξιοι τῆς δαπάνης οἱ νέοι δοῦλοι;ἐὰν μὴ τὸν φίλον κύν' εὕρῃ, μάλα περ κακῶς ἔξει ὡνεψιός μουκατὰ τὸν ἦν νόμον ὁ ὗν σφάξας ἐν ταῖς ἑορταῖς ἐζημιοῦτο σφόδραπολ' ἐνεθυμεῖτο πότερον ἄμεινον ἄν ἦν εἰ τὴν πατρίδ' μήποτε κατέλιπεντοῦ ἑνδεκάτου ἔτους τῶν σπονδῶν τοῖν πολέοιν πρὸς ἀλλήλω ὁ νόθος τοῦ γέροντος βασιλέως λυπούμενος τὰ πάροντα ἐμηχανήσατο τάδε: πρόφασίν τιν θεὶς ἐπορεύετο πρὸς ἕω καὶ κρύφα ἐπανῆλθεν λόχον ἔχων μισθόφορον σμικρὸν ἀλλὰ μάλα δεινὸν μάχεσθαι οἶς τῷ ἀνακτόρῳ ἐμπίπτων εἰσβολὴν τῶν πολεμίων προσποιοῖτο· τὸν βασιλέα σφάξας προύδωκεν τοὺς μισθοφόρους δι' ἐπιβάτην τῆς αὐτῶν ὅς τὴν νᾶυν κατέδυσεν φύγαδε τραπέντα καὶ ταῦτα πεπραχὼς τὰς σπονδὰς κατεπάτησεν λαθὼν πάντας
>>25080639περὶ τῆς τοῦ μανθάνειν τὴν Ἑλληνικὴν αἰτίας οὐκ ἔχω πολλ' εἰπεῖν πλὴν ὅτι τὴν Ῥωμαϊκὴν ἤδη ἅλις μεμαθηκὼς ἄτοπον ἔφαινέν μοι οὐδέν πως εἰδέναι τῆς παλαίας Ἑλληνικῆς τοσούτου ἀξίας παρὰ ἡμῶν τῶν Ἑσπεριτῶν οὔσης καὶ ὡς ἀληθὲς λέγειν ηὗρηκ`αὐτὴν τῆς Ῥωμαϊκῆς ἡδίονα
>>25064712>>25064869I wonder what ill get
Should I start with Greek or Latin
>>25081681start with the greeks
>>25081681G = Greek, L = Latinif like(G) >> like(L) => Gif like(G) << like(L) => Lif like(G) ≈ like(L) => L unless you are native modern G speaker in that case only G
>>25081681It sounds like you intend to learn both, so you should start with the one that you are most motivated to learn now.
>>25081681If you want to do both eventually, Greek will be a much steeper initial climb, with a lot more effort for both grammar and vocab, but Latin will eventually seem easy in comparison. If you do Latin first, you will get to actually reading dramatically quicker, with vocab especially being dramatically easier, but Greek later will still be an ascent from that point. Overall it will take about the same amount of time, but if you give up halfway through doing Greek first you’ll be semi literate in Greek with zero latin, but if you do Latin first and give up you’ll probably be literate in Latin and dabbling in Greek. Overall it kind of just depends on whether you have a passion for Greek and are down to grind much more up front.
It’s very strange how the advice I see about reading biblical Latin or Greek as easier CI seems like something that people are simultaneously dogmatically opposed to but also a bunch of successful learners actually do, almost in secret like it’s something shameful.Bigass easy to read book makes sense to read first extensively.
>>25079588If you get lucky, you can find used Teubners for pretty cheap. Unfortunately I've only seen them in single used book store.
>>25064712roll
>>25064712rrroooooolll
Anyone learning Old Church Slavonic?
>>25083947OCS niggas are extremely rare on /clg/
>>25083131Spooky scary sky wizard.The Latin class I took in high school had a 100% fixation on pre-Christian Rome.There's the possibility of secular post-Renaissance texts but they are typically more complex. Cynically, it also debunks the idea that medieval Christians used Latin to be obscurantist.
Does it make sense to learn Latin pronunciation before pretty much anything else? I feel like if I learn vocab before pronunciation I'll hear it all wrong in my head and I'll have to unlearn a lot. However, some pronunciation books are written as if the reader can already read Latin.
>>25084101Look at the IPA pronunciation of the words in wiktionary
>>25084126Is it really so specific? I was under the impression that the classical pronunciation was essentially spelled phonetically compared to English, and you just have to realize that the letters don't necessarily correspond to the sounds an English speaker would think they do.
>>25084101yes as you hinted learning good habits early on is better than unlearning bad habits later
EEEEGOOEeEEeeeEGOOOEEEEGOO SVM AABBAAASSVM AAABBASSVM AAABBAS CVCANIEEEEENSIIIIIS
>>25084002Makes sense, resources are scarce, especially if you're not a speaker of a modern slavic language
>>25084126What do you think of my pronunciation?https://voca.ro/1aKrk8xR3s6Z
I have a question about the Iliad, not sure where to ask it, but here seems like a safe bet. I'm just getting back into reading, decided to start with the Iliad -- I've been absolutely loving it. Anyways, I just finished book 20 and I'm unsure how to interpret the part where Apollo breathes courage into Aeneas to fight Achilles. It seems foolish and ridiculous that Apollo with his immortal knowledge would tell Aeneas, the pride of the Trojans, to go up against Achilles into surefire death. This point is only supported further when Poseidon, a god for the greeks, intervenes to save Aeneas. I know that fate is a major theme of the epic, but it did make me curious about the motivations of Apollo here. Did he want Aeneas to die? Was he fated to die here and this is why Apollo wanted him to fight Achilles? If he was fated to die then this contradicts Poseidon saving Aeneas under the pretense that he ISN'T fated to die here and self fulfilling the prophecy. Or maybe Apollo wasn't being dick and truly believed that with courage Aeneas could defeat Achilles here? Regardless, I'm just starting out so I'm sure my media literacy is immature and I'm likely missing some things here. Side note, I really like this Aeneas fellow, I think he may be my favourite (definitely shortlisted) person in the whole epic.
>>25086082I get where you are coming from because elsewhere the role of fate seems somewhat grey to me as well, from what I remember having read it multiple times, but maybe I'm wrong, I don't recall fate being explicitly said to be something the gods cannot change at all, but at the same time they always seem to ultimately want to fulfill it, especially Zeus, like when for example he is touched directly by the fate of Sarpedon his own son, and he even ponders about intervening to save him, but desistsso maybe there is a chance and minor gods may be cheeky and try to change it, or perhaps Apollo precisely because he knew his fate he knew that he could send Aeneas into a direct confrontation with the best of the Greeks for glory/morale/etc... and nothing bad would happen because something/someone else would intervene to save him, ultimately demonstrating the power of fate
>>25086082Your ideas about fate in the Iliad sound interesting. Would you like to expand on them? Why do you think fate is something set in stone that the gods will not try to influence? There are cases where gods get hurt, and it's clear that they didn't mean to. Take for instance the two times Aphrodite gets hurt by Athena.My interpretation would be that Apollo thought that Aeneas had a chance against Achilles.
>>25084101If you mean to have a general idea of what sounds the different letters make, then yes. That's why there's usually a section on pronunciation at the front of a Latin textbook. If you mean to memorize everything in Vox Latina before starting out on learning Latin, then that's not a good use of your time. You're never going to sound like a native Roman. The most avid Latin speakers today have their own peculiar accents. Even though we know a lot about ancient Roman pronunciation, we can't hear first-hand what they sounded like.
>>25086153>>25086136I'm still unsure if there ever is a way to overcome or influence fate -- even when the gods try to. As the first anon pointed out, perhaps I was just short one level of abstraction about fate. I stopped at the level thinking that Apollo was doing something devious, foolish, or trying to manipulate fate. But in reality, Apollo could very likely just have been sending Aeneas into battle simply because he DID know fate and that Aeneas would never be able to die here -- as Poseidon fulfills. Zeus wants to save his son, but then does not -- again falling in line with fate.If anything, it seems as though the mortals are the ones that have the ability to challenge fate to a greater extent than the gods. And this could make sense when we think about what the gods seem to represent in mythology. The gods are immortal, beyond time. And since they're beyond time they are unchanging since time is a measurement of change and they are beyond it. They are bound to fate, bound to being unchanging. To the gods, a fated outcome occurring through means not by fate is something they don't want. This is evidence also in book 20 when Zeus sends down the gods to help out in the fight citing that Achilles in his rage so great would be able to sack Troy right this moment. At first I didn't get why this was a problem, but then realized it would be because the events that led to Troy's sacking need to be in a certain order for Fate to be appeased. It doesn't matter if Troy gets sacked if Hector is still alive. All the means need to line up, not just the ends. So maybe the gods are more tied to fate than mortals.
>>25086082The heroes and the gods all seem to be aware of fate but still act according to their desires and immediate concerns regardless. E.g. Hector knows he's going to die and Troy will fall. It's just a very different worldview from our own. If you think about it and place yourself in the position of someone who truly believes in an inexorable fate their actions kind of make sense because conscious knowledge that the outcome is set and one's emotions, immediate desires, etc are separate things, you can't change the former so why not act on instinct? Hopefully that makes sense. >>25086136Somewhere Homer says explicitly that moira is set over even the gods
>>25086295Let me elaborate a little. If you believed that the ultimate outcome of your life were absolutely set in stone and that outcome was to be a failure in whatever goal you have for yourself what would you do? Maybe a lot of people would resign themselves and give in to hedonism but I think for someone like Hector that simply isn't an option, as inexorable as fate is his duty to his city and family, also his innate desire for glory and love of battle, the strength of his emotions, those things are equally inexorable and he chooses them *without regard for the outcome.* We are very accustomed to thinking in utilitarian terms by contrast, you do things for such and such a goal and otherwise its pointless, but the worldview of the Iliad is different, they're able to either forget about "ultimate goals" or they're compelled to act a certain way even with knowledge of them.
>>25086230I think maybe there is essentially inasmuch as the gods are willing to break their very own laws and hierarchies, which they seem to avoid, because when they fight, it's catastrophic for the universe, especially the highest gods. Like it's not so much that the king of the gods Zeus cannot in principle, but because they are such an important part of the cosmos/order it would not be wise so bowing to it is what is proper. That's why when there is a mention of it, like it's possible, I recall the usual reply, repetitive in the Greek, is something like "sure do it BUT we the other gods won't be happy about it" and they desist every single time from breaking it.Men for the most don't know their fate so they are free to act, in a way, because of their ignorance. Also, often fate is revealed in cryptic ways, like I recall right before Antilochus reveals the bad news about Patroclus' death, he, Achilles, was pondering that his mother had told him that the best of he Myrmidons would die by the hands of Trojans while he still lived, yet I'd imagine the idea is that his actions to that point are still clouded by ignorance about the precise way it's going to unfold, like he did not see that his fight with Agamemnon would eventually lead to it
>>25086082>I'm sure my media literacy is immatureThe Iliad isn't fucking media. I'm being harsh, you're doing a cool thing, but man.
>>25084135not him, but use witkionary as you go along. LATIN sounds are literally the 'simplest' ever among all classical sounds, and may i say it, among languages.Even ESPERANTO has more sounds to care for than Latin lol.sanskrt is very detailed with its aspirates and vowels combinations, greek has aspirates, seven vowels and pitch tones, hebrew has seven consonants with double versions. Latin is literally a bare minimum for any language lol, like it doesn't even have palatal sounds (only in Christian era later it developed). anyway here's some things to remember as you go along.when you see "M" in the end of a word that M signals nasalization. Japanese even had a syllable for it. Nasalization is the droning in your nose and depending on the next sound it takes that sound's form. e.g. if that "M" is followed by LIPS sound then it becomes LIPS "M", if it's followed by DENTAL sound (like D, T) then it becomes DENTAL "M", which is, in this version, N. that's it, easy concept.so when it comes into contact with VOWEL, it usually disappears, because vowels are like ghost, airy, gas and atmospheric, so the "M" turns into that too.. it's.. poof.It's simple really.QV (or, commonly rendered as QU) is actually ONE SOUND, and NOT a syllable. it's K plus 'w'. it's not one syllable. e.g. when u see QVA it's actually KwA and not "Ku then A". It's an old P.I.E thing leftover (and that's a cool thing).Lots of other sounds are as you expect them to be. there are other LITTLE strange things but they're no big deal at all (and you WILL find to see that they're quite intuitive), just keep wiktionary now on then on your journey.also btw , Latin DEMANDS that you speak them with your physical mouth. all languages actually do anyway. don't do all this stuff mostly in your head.
>>25085392quidnam'st "CVCANIENSIS".. .. wait.."cuck"?>>25081681a third strategy is to insanely cramp your head with memorizations of sanskrt noun declensions (yep, all 8+ classes of them. think you have it hard with latin/greek 3 noun classes?) then try (IN VAIN) to figure out and memorize as hard as you can (then giving up "for a while") the complex computer-like conjugational system of the verb (which is the CENTER and absolute necessity of every single sanskrt sentence), add to that the irregular varia of the pronouns,and then come to Latin or Greek and you will go"Phew goodness gracious 'TIS A BREATH OF AIR these romanspeak & graeciaspeak."
>>25086436kek, I did say I was immature on this front.
>>25085392quid fles, cucule?
>>25064869rawl
>>25087733>dubsgreat, rawlan again >>25064869
>>25087737It’s kind of awesome how much random stuff I’ve read because of these tables. I sort of get on a roll now that I’m a decent enough reader so I just read the whole source if it’s short/interesting enough. Christopher Columbus’s letters were easy to get through and fun, Descartes’s summary of his meditations was also a surprisingly quick and easy read. In general the early modern neo-latinists seem to write really clearly.
>>25087737>DE WILHELMO THELLIO ELEGIAwas actually fairly hard especially not knowing the story at all apart from the famous shooting of the apple on the head, there seem to also be a few mistakes in the digitalized text on thelatinlibrary and other sites, I had to look for a digitalized image of some manuscript and indeed find some discrepancies that helped understand the textgood couplet(especially if it were true)>sed cum pressa malis virtus humana fatiscit,>auxilio praesens tunc solet esse Deus>>25088036yes I think it's a good exercise, the element of surprise makes it exciting as well as committing to it because a roll is a roll
>>25064869they see me rollingthey hate melet's see what I got!
>>25075723>Hate Ovid.istuc tibi sit.
cl. In tali ludo facile discimus loqui. Sonasne probe sermonem Gallicum? ba. Imo et Latinum sono Gallice. cl. Numquam igitur scribes bona carmina. ba. Cur ita? cl. Quia periit tibi syllabarum quantitas. ba. Mihi satis est qualitas. cl. Quid? estne Lutetia immunis a pestilentia?GALLINIGRI VERBERATI MERDAM FORAS
>>25064706Καλός
Is there any text that talks about Athena having a shield? Does both her shiled and the Aegis feature the gorgon (?)
>>25090336>gorgonthis is the only specific text I can recall about it (paragraph 73)71 Minerva apud Graecos Ἀθήνη dicitur, id est, femina. Apud Latinos autem Minervam vocatam quasi deam et munus artium variarum. Hanc enim inventricem multorum ingeniorum perhibent, et inde eam artem et rationem interpretantur, quia sine ratione nihil potest contineri. 72 Quae ratio, quia ex solo animo nascitur, animumque putant esse in capite et cerebro, ideo eam dicunt de capite Iovis esse natam, quia sensus sapientis, qui invenit omnia, in capite est. 73 In cuius pectore ideo caput Gorgonis fingitur, quod illic est omnis prudentia, quae confundit alios, et inperitos ac saxeos conprobat: quod et in antiquis Imperatorum statuis cernimus in medio pectore loricae, propter insinuandam sapientiam et virtutem.liber VIII etymologiarum Isidori
>>25090461>paragraphI mean line
>>25090336Apollodorus mentions it>Having appointed Dictys king of Seriphus, he gave back the sandals and the wallet (kibisis) and the cap to Hermes, but the Gorgon's head he gave to Athena. Hermes restored the aforesaid things to the nymphs and Athena inserted the Gorgon's head in the middle of her shield.
