My little brothers friend is some Vietnamese immigrant who's a communist/'Democratic socialist'. Economics is kinda my weak spot and I don't know where to start. Should I just read the communist manifesto? What's the best course of action to refute this demonic Ideology?
>>25143107Eugen Bohm Bawerk is what you're looking for
>>25143107You're not going to get there with that mindset, but here is a list:>A Very Short Introduction to Economics>Capital >On Authority>The Decomposition of Marxism by Georges Sorel
>>25143162Get the Abridged Oxford edition of Capiral
This will help you debunk the idea of social progress generally as well as the possibility of absolute socio-economic equality
>>25143107>to refute this demonic Ideology that Vietnam is doing fine under nowShut the fuck up and read Bakunin, you slag.
>>25143170Shan't.
>>25143170Vietnam isn't communist. It has the same economic system as France. It just happens to be a one-party state that used to have a state-socialist economy several decades ago
>>25143107>VietnameseJust go ask the little cunts elders to beat the shit out of him.
>>25143107>doesn't know anything about an idea>still compelled to defend his master against itspooked as hellRead the writings of Saint Max (pbuh). Marx was pre-emptively btfo'd and never recovered from his asshurt.
>>25143107No need. History has refuted communism.
>>25143107>Should I just read the communist manifesto?No that is a terrible starting point to get into communism since most of it is just marx seething and dabbing on ideologies contemporary to him that nobody remembers or cares aboutThere is a reason only two sentences are ever quoted from it
>>25143689You need to understand Marx to understand why this matters thoughNot many ideologies can be "refuted by history", but Marxism happens to be one of the most popular of those
>>25143689>>25143702Marx was refuted by Bakunin and "history"Communism has not. Anarcho-communism is another way of putting it.Capitalism has been refuted a dozen times per century. Over and over and over and over again. Utterly refuted. But we know why your masters keep it around. Even if you don't know. Blithering idiots.
>>25143107The vast majority of people, even thinkers who have published books on marxism, don't understand Marx.If you want to refute marxian economics precisely, just read any academic debate on the relevance of the LTV compared to the marginalist framework. All it will do is make you able to say "erm the marginal revolution allowed us to have better statistical and modeling tools !". Then, you can read about János Kornai's economics of shortage to get an understanding of why the micro and macro policies under command economies using material-balance optimization doesn't work. In the similar pseud-vein that bequeaths you well, I'd recommend reading Kolakowski "main currents of marxism", which is essentially a book that attempts to prove that Marxism had the seeds of Stalin's sociopathy within it. By then, you should be able to have a decent understanding of why authoritarian command economies don't work.If you want to actually refute marxism, read the manuscripts of 1844, then read Lukacs' History and Class Consciousness, then read his Ontology of the social being. I'd also suggest you read multiple short books on what dialectics are (lukacs again has a decent essay called 'what is orthodox marxism' that describes it well). Once you've findally understood Marx as a left-hegelian materialist thinker focused on human emancipation, read Stirner's magnum opus and read Sartre's critique of the dialectique.
>>25143898>it was refuted because I don't like it???I don't like laissez-faire capitalism either, but that's not what "refuted" means
>>25144117So where are you when the tards come out to say it's all refuted?
>>25144130Neither capitalism nor fascism has been "refuted"If they were refuted, they wouldn't exist any more
>>25144166>>25143689>If they were refuted, they wouldn't exist any moreWait a second, does that mean that communism hasn't been refuted either?
>>25144229Vietnam and China are capitalist.Cuba and North Korea are state-socialist. Not sure about Laos.
>>25143107Hierarchy is the inevitable outcome of every societal gathering. Communist Russia also had a hierarchy and a terrible one at that. One Monarch I meant dictator I meant omnipotent tyrant who had everything, a handful offficials sharing a little bit of that, and they would get killed or thrown in gulag if they opposed their paranoid dictator. The people, slaves. No one honestly believes in a governmental form literally worse than medieval feudalism and that's a very low bar at that. Say 'I am a communist/socialist' or 'I am a liar' same thing.
>>25144166Jesus doesn't exist anymore, anon. >>25144238>Not true communism drrrInteresting how this is on the other foot now.The Amish still exist, therefore communism persists
>>25144108>If you want to refute marxian economics precisely, just read any academic debate on the relevance of the LTV compared to the marginalist framework. All it will do is make you able to say "erm the marginal revolution allowed us to have better statistical and modeling tools That's not the point of the marginalist framework in this context though. It's purpose is to obfuscate and outright deny the fundamental truth that poor have have less labour done for them than they actually give out to the world. And property/capital owners have 100s or even 1000s of times more labour spent on them than they give out. All because they take the surplus labour value created by other people
>bro this theory sounds great, we have to apply it50 failed applications later>but that theory is really good bro just read it again it's perfect we have to try it againit refuted itself
>>25144668>this theoryWhat theory>The one that failedOh. NOT that theory. The right one. >....NO. Yes.>NO, RETARD. IT WAS REFUTED.No, not the "refuted" one
You can't. But read this anyway.
>>25143107>arguing with teenagerslol come on man, don't you have anything better to do
>>25144674so ... we just have to try again?
>>25144523>Jesus doesn't exist anymore, anonNot a christcuck>the AmishNot an example I want to replicate
>Spoonfeed me anticommunist ideologyStart with the pop history youtubers, then gradually ease yourself into the black book of communism, CNN, Fox News, Thomas Sowell tiktok edits etc. When you're ready for your final redpill read Animal Farm. Done.
>>25144684Im tired boss..
>>25144700Or just study math.
>>25143107>Democratic socialistThere is no bigger enemy to communism.
>>25144707Capital Vol 3 is a math textbook that remains unrefuted for 150 years now, despite hayek and milton and the other retards deseperately tryingBTW pic related is the result of the most learned mathematicians applying optimal capitalist operational policy... and wouldn't you know it, it's exactly as Marx predicted!
>>25144719Most of these people haven't even read the manifesto, let alone an abridged copy of Capital. Mental midgetry abounds.
>>25144684Try reading what it all is>>25144711State-capitalism is the enemy.
>>25144700What's funny about this satiric comment is that real anti-communist rhetoric never grows beyond this midwitism. Even in this thread the anti-communism is tiktok/animal farm level
>>25143107Ask him why people were risking getting shot to escape from East Berlin to West Berlin or to explain any of the other situations where people flee from communism but there's never any traffic the opposite way. Books will only confuse the issue. The answer is obvious once you start seeing, thinking, and living historically. Believe your eyes and your heart. Unlearn conditioning.
>>251447401. If the majority wanted to just leave to West Berlin nothing would've stopped them. It's quite clear that the communist state is reflective of the people and not alienated to it. People wanted people's control over the nation because why wouldn't they?2. Ending communism did not prevent the flight from eastern Europe. Communism is not the reason why Arabs and Africans are flooding into Europe. Capitalism is.
>>25144700>>25144719>>25144727>>25144726And so it begins..
>>25144523He’s right though. Every socialist revolution ever has failed to succeed in establishing communism. This is something that is an undeniable fact. When the Soviets took over they would hand wave away all of the criticisms and problems they were experiencing in their system by claiming that “In X amount of years when we reach full communism this won’t be a problem anymore”. This is how problems like crime, political persecution, speech restrictions, the gulags and slave labor, etc all managed to fester and normalize. After a while they stopped pretending these problems would go away. Not only that they never came close to collectivizing even half of the farms or factories and their economic system was a complete mess. They never made their target production figures and made up fake ones constantly. They persecuted any and all productive members of society and even poor illiterate farmers became “kulaks” if they were capable of growing enough corn to survive comfortably. Everyone and anyone who suffered miserably under this system of economic oppression was just dismissed as petite-bourgeoisie and the people who starved to death due it were often from suspiciously specific areas and/or population groups and then summarily dismissed as counter-revolutionaries or bourgeoisie nationalists that Good Mustache killed in the cradle. But yea bro please do it. Bring on the revolution and the dictatorship of the worker. I’m a literal member of a trade union so it’ll be you first, me tomorrow.
>>25143898>Communism has not.In the presence of the state, there is no communism.In the absence of the state, there is no enforcement of communism.Therefore communism can never exist, either with or without the state.>Capitalism has been refuted a dozen times per centuryAnd yet it's still here LMAO.Looks like capitalism is more resilient than you thought.
>>25144791>And yet it's still here LMAO.so are niggers, jews, mudslimes, trannies, chomos, and countless of other thingsis that really your argument
>>25144229None of those are communist states. In fact a "communist state" is an oxymoron.Those are socialist states, which is also why they're repressive shitholes.
>>25144796Are any of those things theories of economics?Is that really your argument?
>>25144804>thing exists>that means its good!yawn, ironically you talk like these leftists you hate
>>25144788*Every statist Marxist-LeninistHow many time do I have to point out the obvious? >>25144791>enforcementlawlPoor poor degenerated minds
>>25144810Capitalism isn't "good" or "bad"It just is.There are two possible economic systems. State-socialism or a hundred different of capitalism.I'm a sort of national-libertarian-social-democrat, so I prefer the latterLaissez-faire capitalism does indeed suck, I prefer the Nordic modelStateless communism/anarchism has never been tried on a large scale, because it can't work
>>25144853>Capitalism isn't "good" or "bad">It just is.based retard>Mass human sacrifice isn't "good" or "bad"... it just is>t. Montezuma
>>25144858Human sacrifice can be replaced with not-human-sacrifice.Capitalism can only be replaced with state-socialism and every time that happens people decide that capitalism with a progressive tax system, unions, a strong welfare and a significant part of the economy being state owned is far better
>>25144810>that means its goodNo, that means it exists.Which at least gives it an advantage over communism, which doesn't exist and never has.
>>25144837>Poor poor degenerated mindsYou're just projecting now.
>>25144867To be fair to anon, communism does work in tiny primitive tribes. I just don't really want to live there tbqh
>>25144876Even those guys tend to share a common practice of sneak up behind their elderly and bashing them in the head one day when they’re not pulling their weight anymore though
>>25144858Capitalism = human sacrifice (and that’s a good thing!)
>>25144864No people ever decided anything of such sort. The elites or rather the thieves of the world circle back to capitalism because that's what benefits them.
>>25143107>Admits he doesn't understand economics>Confidently labels an economic viewpoint "demonic"You should probably just accept that you are mentally deficient and try to have less strong opinions.
>>25143107Read Main currents of Marxism 1976 3 vol Lezek Kolakowski
>>25143107>Should I just read the communist manifesto? What's the best course of action to refute this demonic Ideology?As a general rule, the best anti-communist writings are by former communists (Leszek Kolakowski, Milovan Djilas -- look up his book "The New Class") who had some inside understanding of it. I think it's best to read stuff like the Communist Manifesto as a historical document, and also to think about communism as an actual historical phenomenon that failed catastrophically and produced the opposite of their intentions in many ways, like they ended up creating very weird dysfunctional societies of morbidly drunk proles (not talked about enough) with incredible levels of anomie who drank themselves to death as their main activity outside of work, while being ruled over by bureaucrats who despised their own workers and the system they operated in. We still don't fully understand it really. I don't think you need to mount some defense of capitalism, it's capable of doing that well enough on its own.
>>25145643Djilas is a pro-communist anti-Communist text though, stop trying to indoctrinate him into a real communist working class perspective of self-liberation.
I know it’s a cliche to recommend it but I do wonder how many here besides me have even spent the time and energy to actually read all three volumes (6 books) of this masterpiece. It should be required reading in every country on earth.
>>25143107Raymond Aron dunks on commies and exposed them all as anti-intellectual dogmatists in The Opium of the Intellectuals
>>25144229This is an amazing argument, because Vietnam and China liberalized 40 years ago and their economies rapidly improved following decollectivization. While Cuba, Laos and North Korea are total impoverished shitholes constantly teetering on the verge of collapse. The success of China and Vietnam are the strongest examples against communism.
>>25145960Cuba, Laos and North Korea are capitalist like every country on the globe.
>>25143107>I MUST DEFEND MY PEODOHILE OVERLORDS AND THEIR GLOBAL MACHINE OF ECONOMIC DOMINATIONu r very cringe
>>25145960Both Cuba and north Korea are shut out of the global economy because dollar warfare.
>>25145966I think you understand what I'm saying though, no need to be facetious.>>25146012Damn, maybe world communism should have done a better job building alliances and protecting its sphere of influence ;)
>>25144871
>>25146312Didn't click. I win.
>>25143107You can read almost anyone. Fuck it, Francis Fukuyama. We're all just shooting in the dark at the end.
How is it that in all this time, nobody has been able to refute this man's theses?
>>25143107>doesnt know much about economics by his own admission>still feels the urge to "refute communism"fascinating how americans seem to have been programmed since birth, you come across a socdem and your ATTACK_COMMUNISM directive takes control of your behaviour
>>25147178This isn't even necessarily an American thing. European neoliberals try to placate everyone with socdem retardation because they cannot refute Marx.
>>25147175There are multiple refutations ITT, but you're clearly too lazy to read it. You have all the qualifications for a communist ...
>>25147202>There are multiple refutations ITT,None serious lmao
>>25147175Which theses are you referring to?
>>25147178Odd since SocDems made up a significant portion of the prisoners in the Soviet gulag system. SocDems along with other ideologically impure leftists like Mensheviks, Socialist Revolutionaries, anarchists, and Trotskyites were among the earliest targets of Soviet repression and made up a significant portion of their slave labor camps. Strange that supposed “fellow travelers” massacred them en masse whereas their supposed class enemies in the capitalist west just treat them with contempt at worst
>>25147202Not really. None actually refute the central core axiom of marxism, which is that men self-realize in their labor and are in a dialectical interaction with their environment in doing so.It's always some blend of :>marginalism totally disproves the LTV bro<ignores that it just shifts the focus>Mises showed it was impossible with the ECP!<ignores that the ECP is for centrally planned economies>erm le economism/historical determinism<ignore that Marx himself condemned these readings>marxism makes people religious in their ideology !<ignores this is available to any ideologyNone of this claims actually refute anything. All it does is, at the very least, provide some insights into what centrally planned economies should try to fix and provide a deontological framework for militants to think "mhmm, am I truly being the openned and insightful man I claim to be ?". Even when popular philosophers like Sartre critique marxism, they're only critiquing how marxists behave and not their actual beliefs. I mean, Kolakowsky's entire book is that marxism can make people act religiously (but secular therefore EPIC EVIL). It's too bad too because there is a lot to say about marxist dialectics and marx's concept of alienation. Picrel is exactly the type of stuff that precisely misaligns and doesn't understand the core claim behind marxism, and only focuses on the economic theories.If you read the manuscripts of 1844, which are by far the most important text for marxism as it is the most systematic projection of marxist philosophy alongside the Germany Ideology (the capital is only a critique of the political economy), you'll realize that very few critiques actually accurately criticize the core claims of marxism, and this is DESPITE the book very easily rebutable.
>>25147256>lmao
>>25147479DIDN'T READ LOL
>>25147479If you remove the economic and historicist underpinnings of Marxism, then you can't debunk it, but you also can't prove it, because it's just a list of moral opinions at that point. I'm argue with your emotions.
>>25147483*I can't argue with your emotions All I can say is that it's cool you like state-socialism, but I prefer social-democracy instead.
>>25147483>then you can't debunk it, but you also can't prove it>you can't disprove dialectical materialism and alienation because ???What's the argument here exactly anon ?>it's just a list of moral opinionsIsn't it common knowledge that Marx's works and aims were precisely NOT moral critiques of capitalism ?
>>25147482>too busy insisting we need more commonwealth immigration
my grandma gave me this recipe called "Shit cake with cherry icing" but no matter how hard I try it always comes out disgusting, I cannot believe I fucked it up every time, I love cherries and my grandma
>>25147511Alienation, divorced from LTV and historical materialism, is just a moral critique. I can just say I don't care about alienation and that's the debunk.
>>25143107Communism is utopian in nature, and utopias cannot exist.
>>25147260Dialectical materialism is the only method of historical study that isn't dependent on the current culture.
>>25147633Pre-emptively debunked by Engels.
Is it possible you're just trying to sublimate your desire to have sex with this Vietnamese boy?
What a bunch of bullshit artistry dressed up as deep thought
>>25144686that's the thing, (you) don't replicate.
>>25143107Communism idealises a Utopia that clearly many if not most types of temperaments in people wouldn't be able to live in (a future for Norwegians).So the only way a state could realize Communism would be through sterilizing or outright murder all those who simply don't want that world forced on them.
IMO the band Against Me managed to succinctly sum up everything that needs to be said about radical leftwing revolutionary ideology in their 2011 hit song “I Was A Teenage Anarchist”. Unfortunately some things are only learned through experience and I wouldn’t want to stop anyone from being young and wanting to set the world on fire anyway.
>>25144108I wrote something on Lukacs awhile back
>>25148272I remember when my friends were young punks (we played in a band together, albeit we were more Drunks With Guns and less Exploited) and we were in Pittsburgh (i think) and my bassist was wearing an Against Me shirt and my drummer, being juvenile said "I'm gonna be against you" and pressed his body against him for no reason. This was like, 2008 or something.
>>25143107Tell him that communism is the devil's pale worldly imitation of Christianity and that godless materialism is self refuting but in a nice way
>>25143107Communism is chopped lil bro. Juche is where its at.
>>25148392Yea I played drums with some guys in a hardcore band for a while, we never did any shows outside of our area but our area was Philly and it’s suburbs and South Jersey so we could always play somewhere any weekend we wanted and get a huge crowd and reaction. Anybody could in the 00s in that area, we played along side some absolute jokes of musicians all the time. My closest friend in the band played guitar but the band existed before he got in it and then he got me in later because they needed a better drummer. We were both obsessed with Converge at the time and wanted to sound like that but the rest of the band wanted to be more like Underoath or something. I have so much more stuff I want to say but I don’t want to dox myself and others. Anyways, to make a long story short, drugs destroyed everything like they do and I got older and the music scene became weird to me
>>25148428oh yeah my bassist loved Converge too but our drummer was into pop punk and crap and wanted to force us into that direction. me, on the other hand, was really into a lot of what could be derided as "pigfuck" like Unsane and The Jesus Lizard. but now I'm a substack essayist and my guitar is sitting in the corner collecting dust until I get a new one. I got Rush on (the band not Limbaugh) and its gonna be a long time before I get something new together.
>>25148428oh forgot to add, I knew someone on social media who was around for the first wave of Philly hardcore in the early 80s who was into the band Ruin. he's now super into Alexander Dugin but he's in his 50s now.
>>25148568I’m a native so I’m biased, but love it or hate it Philly is an amazing area for music and has been for a long time. A lot of great bands have come out of our area, from punk to hair metal. Also there’s always a consistent demand for hard and loud music and a spirit of aggressive experimentation in the local musical DNA. That’s probably why I love “weird” music like “pigfuck” and noiserock and mathrock and all that kind of crap. And to be honest I should probably actually read some Dugin before I decide to share any opinions I have about his work
>>25143146>if lvt holds, then how come profit can’t be reduced to surplus value?!A very midwit critique. Lvt is actually quite simple, as simple as realizing that what commodities have in common is labor. It isn’t a theory of prices. Marx did not understand the nature of the social process by which one worker produces more value than another but it doesn’t actually matter for his theory. I’m not pretending Marx is unassailable but lvt is a simple tautology.
I’ve tried to read Marxists but I get turned off by their shrill tone. Even the supposedly brainiest Marxists like Lukacs read like Ayn Rand objectivists.
your little brothet and his friend sound bazedyou should leave them alone
>>25148177This argument is so cliched that Engels debunked it in 1880.
>>25143898The correct answer is National Socialism
>>25150023This.
>>25143107Marx was a genius, doesn’t mean he’s right about everything
>>25150023>>25150028No children. Naziism came about to crush the socialist movement. As I have been saying for a long time. Hitler was the bastard grandchild of Salomon Rothschild (or his son Anselm)The Third Reich was funded by wall street and other industrialists in the wake of Stalin shutting them out. (Sutton's book, Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler). The man was hired to aid the fascist zionists and go to war and kill as many Soviets as possible. Fascism was invented by liberalism to aid it while it was in crisis. It's a LARP for Romaphile children like you.
>>25150083Oh god that fucking professor fruitcake again
>>25150083>Hitler lived in a boarding house for a bit so he was obviously a Rothschild double agentamazing the bizarre fantasies the third world mind can conjure up on a whim
>>25150108No, the Epstein files drop. Do you know what any of them imply?
>>25150128excerpt from book relatedhttp://www.maebrussell.com/About%20Mae%20Brussell/Mind%20of%20Adolf%20Hitler.html
>>25143107Ask him if communism is so great, why did his parents bug out of a communist country
>>25147703Engels was a crypto-feminist
>>25150083Post recs?
>>25150083You sound jewish/schizophrenic, and ought to be put down
>>25150639He’s a disciple of some internet bullshit salesman called “professor” jiang. Personally I have more respect for people who can at least invent their own crazy bullshit. Imagine needing to be a follower that much.
>>25150677Jiang is just LaRouchism for the 21st century.
>>25143107>What's the best course of action to refute this demonic Ideology?I understand that you really want to refute the demonic ideology named Capitalism. It's nice to see people understanding that endless Capital accumulation is demonic. I recommand Das Kapital, volume, 1, volume 2, volume 3, and volume 4 (theories on surplus value). Best luck.
>>25143689History has refuted Capitalism. Since 2008. In case you didn't notice, the fed interest rates are currently plunging, and will crash hard. Needing an other Capital fallow.
>>25150682Kek
>>25144757>2Strawman
>>25143107When I was in the military, there was an opportunity to do some volunteer work with some Vietnamese college students studying English. The object of the session was to speak English plainly to them and see how well they could understand us. One of the students I spoke with was on his way to becoming a lawyer. I asked him if he wanted to get involved in criminal law, and he said no. He said no to working for the government as well. At that point I was confused. I was trying to figure out the sort of law a person could practice in a communist state, if not one or the other of those. As I was interviewing him, the subject of patent law and copyright came up. The impression I got was that the idea of a person owning something as abstract as their own ideas, and profiting with that ownership was totally foreign to him. It easily could have been in the language barrier, however, everything proceeding this seemed to have been well understood by him, and he spoke with the best English of anyone I encountered that day. That memory, on top of the way the streets of Da Nang had been made immaculate for us, while me and my "liberty buddy" from our perch at a rooftop bar, could see a mountain of festering garbage behind the buildings on the street and the façade constructed for us, has always been my best proof against communism... I suppose it only really works for me though.
>>25150639For this topic? The Sutton book, the Langer book, Sabbatianism from a called The Mixed Multitude by a Paweł Maciejko. More recently heard of this motherfucker (on the book's cover) who tasked Netanyahu with forcing the messiah down.>>25150652You sound like a zionist freaking out that his ideals are crumbling to dust. >>25150682LaRouchism isn't so bad actually. Soft power idealism. Like why the fuck not pay Venezuela for the oil? The New Deal period was so short and did some good.
>>25143107>Byung-Chul Han, Psycho-PoliticsDialectically accelerate (into absurdity), so that it does in fact become just a 'phase'. Follow up with A Thousand Plateaus. >>25144788Beside the point. 'Equality' is a shibboleth that appears and is advocated nowhere in Marx, Lenin, Stalin ect. The end result will be a caste system, and what constitutes Lumpenprole even in their view is an ever ratcheting - eugenic - process of elimination, perfectly in line with our later day tech faggot overlords' 15'' walkable UN Smart City free range gulags. >>25145643>As a general rule, the best anti-communist writings are by former communistsWhittaker Chambers, WitnessWe Will Bury You, Jan SejnaNew Lies for Old; Perestroika Deception, Anatoly GolitsynJudgement in Moscow, Vladimir BukovskyThe Mitrovkin Archvive, Andrew & Mitrovkin>>25148428Hardcore loses its edge the second it steps out of shotgun nihilism. Explicitly political popular music acts haven't been cool since Gang of Four. Henry Rollins' career arc is patient zero.
>>25150083>convergence [of socialisms] from the RightIt's the determinate negation, precisely because socialism is, as the "conspiratorial party of a new type" ("What Must Be Done", Lenin)-- inherently insurrectionary and militant, and perpetual security/counterintelligence military junta is the ultimate end state of any country that does not simply roll over and submit to the process of profane nigredo.
>>25151039>the process of profane nigredo.
>>25143107>communist/'Democratic socialist'those are opposites you fucking luxemburgist
>>25151080No. You think "communist" means state authoritarianism, but that was just the Marxists of varying types. But even China hold elections. (though I wouldn't call them democratic socialists)On the democratic socialist side we have places like Venezuela. Which I guess serves as an "I told ya so" for the Trotskyists who can say they should have gone full hardliner. (But fuck Trots)
All these threads ever prove is that Techbros have nothing to fear from modern day leftists.
>>25147332>Strange that supposed “fellow travelers” massacred them en masse whereas their supposed class enemies in the capitalist west just treat them with contempt at worstCommunism turned out to be more ruthless towards differences in thought than social class. Strange but true.>>25150834>LaRouchism isn't so bad actually. Soft power idealism. Like why the fuck not pay Venezuela for the oil? The New Deal period was so short and did some good.LaRouchism was an attractive cult for grad students because it is intellectually rigorous although puzzling, also they spent decades convincing their followers that immersing themselves in high culture was the ultimate antidote to the barbarism of the "British Empire" and neoconservative psywar sex brigades. It has split into two groups, one led by his widow is ideologically the equivalent of the house from Psycho with LaRouche's corpse propped up in the window as his remaining followers try to retroactively frame geopolitical events as something he predicted decades ago. The other led by some other members rebraned as Promethean Action and are like Frankenstein, they've become full-throated MAGA supporters endorsing the war with Iran using a lot of Renaissance-sounding langugage.
>>25151120>Communism turned out to be more ruthless towards differences in thought than social class. Strange but true.Blame Gramsci for that>LaRouchism was an attractive cult for grad students because it is intellectually rigorous although puzzling, also they spent decades convincing their followers that immersing themselves in high culture was the ultimate antidote to the barbarism of the "British Empire" and neoconservative psywar sex brigades. It has split into two groups, one led by his widow is ideologically the equivalent of the house from Psycho with LaRouche's corpse propped up in the window as his remaining followers try to retroactively frame geopolitical events as something he predicted decades ago. The other led by some other members rebraned as Promethean Action and are like Frankenstein, they've become full-throated MAGA supporters endorsing the war with Iran using a lot of Renaissance-sounding langugage.Is there any definitive text on political cults that exist in the modern era? Stuff on them and the Objectivists and whatnot?
>>25144757East and west Berliners were the exact same people-historically, ethnically, culturally. The only difference between them was which overlord occupied them. Some of them could come and go as they pleased; others would get shot for trying to leave because that's what their overlord's system required to "work." You stupid bootlicking retarded faggot.
>>25150128anon, that's an email from Epsten. you can find that specific one here https://www.justice.gov/epstein/files/DataSet%209/EFTA01009881.pdf, and you can search for it here: https://www.justice.gov/epstein>>25151041funny you say that. even Marx described "reactionary socialistm" (and multiple other types) in the communist manifesto: https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch03.htm
>>25151034>Explicitly political popular music acts haven't been cool since Gang of Four.I was only ever in it for the music and fun.
>>25144757>If the majority wanted to just leave to West Berlin nothing would've stopped them.Fucking retard.
reminder that marx was very intelligent and nailed it with the explanation of the society of the 19th centurythe best critique you can have of communism is how miserable life in the ussr was
>>25151120>Get people into thinking and studying.>/lit/'s long time wish (oh one problem. It's FDR inspired)>Denounce it like it was a cult. OF HAUNTED HOUSE GHOULS! Take the Pentagon's talking point as fact.That off shoot does sound wacky and not at all related.Too bad /lit/ spend more time licking Kissinger's toes and worshiping monarchists.
Since Marx called for "praxis" as a necessary condition for his predictions to manifest, and since he was subsequently championed by an elite class/intelectual class with members frequently of a state level influence... doesn't that all mean the genie is out of the bottle, and you can never really claim any of his predictions are "true", "natural" or "scientifc" in the absence of this forced manifestation of his claims?
>>25151520The Manifesto is useless, yea.
>>25151102You today, me tomorrow. They always get around to thinning out or outright replacing the members of their own inner elite circles and party leaders eventually too.
>>25149430>lvt is a simple tautology
>>25149896Guess that's why communist states did not kill and imprison everyone who objected just to barely survive, oh wait
>>25152329That argument has already been debunked in this very thread.
>>25152329Guess that's why State Capitalist states did not kill and imprison everyone who objected just to barely survive, oh wait
>>25151520>since he was subsequently championed by an elite class/intelectual class with members frequently of a state level influenceWhat are you talking about, Marx was unknown during his life. Or maybe you talk about the bolsheviks? In this case, they are they own ideology, vanguardism, which contradicts Marx.
>>25151285USSR = Bolshevism = vangardism.
Vanguardism is not identical to communism according to Marx, though it is closely related to Marxist theory.While Karl Marx did not use the term "vanguardism" explicitly, he did describe the role of the Communist Party as the "most advanced and resolute section" of the working class in The Communist Manifesto. This section is meant to lead the proletariat politically and theoretically, but Marx emphasized that the party must emerge from and represent the entire working class, not a separate elite. He argued that the working class must organize itself into a political party to achieve revolutionary power, but this party is not a substitute for the class—it is the class’s own historical organ.The concept of a as a distinct, disciplined, and centralized organization leading the revolution—especially in the form developed by Vladimir Lenin and later Marxism–Leninism—is considered a development beyond Marx’s original vision by many scholars. Marx envisioned a mass working-class party formed through struggle, not a small, secretive group of professional revolutionaries. Lenin’s What Is to Be Done? (1902) introduced the idea of a vanguard party to overcome the limitations of "spontaneous" class consciousness, which Marx believed could be developed through struggle, but not imposed from above.Thus, while vanguardism aligns with certain elements of Marx’s thought, such as the need for revolutionary leadership and class consciousness, it diverges in its institutional form and emphasis on a small, centralized party. Many Marxists argue that vanguardism as practiced in the 20th century (e.g., Soviet or Maoist models) represents a Leninist interpretation rather than a direct continuation of Marx’s ideas.
>>25148177>A future for Norwegians is IMPOSSIBLE>Due to natural temperamentsNo, the mind is perfectly malleable and capable of accepting a great deal. For good and ill. Yes, we could have a country of Morten Harket's >the only way a state could realize CommunismIs by dissolving. No really. That's what Communism is. An end to statism and its centralized command. (By no longer paying or working for them)
>>25147202The OP is literally the one saying he doesn't know what communism is but he hates it and begging for reccomendations to support his ignorant point of view.
>>25149896>>25152338Did he debunk what happened in communist states throughout the 20th century?
>>25152671Nta, but it’s super easy to do that. You just say that every single one of those states was something other than communism, duh.
>>25151159>Is there any definitive text on political cults that exist in the modern era? Stuff on them and the Objectivists and whatnot?Nothing comes off the top of my head.>>25151464>That off shoot does sound wacky and not at all related.LaRouche would probably roll over in his grave, but they are an offshoot, I think the faction that became Promethean Action is led by Barbara Boyd from Michigan and some others, formerly known as LaRouchePAC. LaRouche's widow leads the other part (Schiller Institute, EIR, LaRouche Organization, etc.) from Germany.They always had this contradictory aspect with their Enlightenment, Renaissance, FDR, Hamilton fandom while trying to adapt their messaging to the right-wing gun nut and conspiracy crazies. Also being anti-war while also being accelerationist about industrialization, industrial capitalism, and high-science / high-technology leaps which is bound up in the military-industrial complex. In fact something like Trump's Golden Dome missile defense shield would've been something LaRouche would've be an all for in the 1980s, he would've claimed he invented the idea. I think Helga Zepp (being German) never viewed the right-wing grug base in the U.S. with high regard so her side of the split is abandoning that for China/Russia/BRICS fandom while the other split are becoming American turbo-imperialists.
>>25152506>Is by dissolving.And here's the inherent contradiction. The powerful don't given up thier power voluntarily.
>>25150733>whatabouteryThe credit bubble of 2008 came about because central banks kept interest rates too low. Every nigger and his dog was getting a mortgage.As usual in economic crises, the state was to blame. The market was not allowed to function.
>>25146312Did click. I wanted to save it as a reaction image because I love YTP.
>>25153274If the business cycle is due to mistakes, why do we keep making the same mistake every few years in different forms? If it’s all because of fiat money, why did these crises exist under the gold standard? Your position that this is all accidental is not convincing.
>>25153319The clue is in the word "cycle." Everything in nature is cyclical.Economic cycles are inevitable, and would be much less severe if not for government efforts to control them.
>>25153274>The credit bubble of 2008 came about because central banks kept interest rates too low. Every nigger and his dog was getting a mortgage.That's the narrative served to the goyim. 2008 crisis went from 2008 to 2015. That's way too long for a supposed overspeculation crisis. Meaning it wasn't. It was capital cannot reproduce itself anymore, already.
>>25153516Except each cycle, the overproduction crisis is more catastrophic, due to the contradiction between valorization and devalorization. Up to the point (2008) where Capitalism is no more viable. 2020 lockdowns were a Capital fallow. That was entirely foreseen by Marx, in volume 4.
>>25143107If you are lazy>Economic Calculation in the Socialist Commonwealth (1920)If you want the full thing>Socialism: An Economic and Sociological Analysis (1922)If you're not into translations>Human Action: A Treatise on Economics (1949)
>>25146010I too do not like Marx, Stálin, Mao and the likes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_petitions_against_age-of-consent_laws of the commie scum
>>25153751Engels was explicitly against pederasty.
>>25153729>That was entirely foreseen by Marx, in volume 4.Expand on this.
>>25153271So?Dissolve those who think themselves the "powerful"That's why we call it taking power. But take it collectively, not an elite "vanguard" party, not a council of elders or experts, lawyers or the wealthiest. Stop being lazy and keep the power in the plurality of the community.
>>25153516If I was a physician who encountered a patient who oscillated back and forth between extreme Donald J Trump levels of health and severe crisis I’d think he had a disease. Capitalism is like that, a disease. Shit-posting liberals like you are the puss in the bubo.
>>25153826In Marx’s theories of surplus value, the "Capital fallow” refers to a situation in which a portion of existing capital does not produce surplus value, either because it is temporarily unused or because it is “put to sleep” or “idled.” This situation arises when there is a surplus of capital, leading to a decline in the rate of profit. To restart capital accumulation, it becomes necessary to reduce the rate of valorization of certain portions of capital or to leave them inactive. In Theories of Surplus Value, Marx analyzes this phenomenon as a structural response to capitalism’s crises of overproduction. He explains that idling allows the system to rebalance by reducing supply relative to demand, which raises the average rate of profit. This results in business closures, unused machinery, goods rotting in warehouses, or unvalued investments. Marx notes that this situation, though temporary, is inevitable in the capitalist cycle. He asserts: “There is no such thing as permanent crises,” emphasizing that the idling of capital is a necessary mechanism for restoring the dynamics of accumulation. This process is closely linked to the organic composition of capital and the formation of the general rate of profit, two central concepts developed in these manuscripts.
>>25153729>Except each cycle, the overproduction crisis is more catastrophic... because government agencies intervene to delay the inevitable as long as possible, making it inevitably worse.>Up to the point (2008) where Capitalism is no more viable.As has been pointed out, 2008 happened because central banks artificially depressed interest rates.>2020 lockdowns were a Capital fallow. That was entirely foreseen by Marx, in volume 4.Ah, so you're an actual schizo. Got it.
>>25155373>Dissolve those who think themselves the "powerful"Uh, you have to become the powerful before you can do that ...>>25155434Crap analogy, and unwarranted conclusion.
>>25153723>2008 crisis went from 2008 to 2015. That's way too long for a supposed overspeculation crisis.According to whom? It's well within historical parameters for a "bust" phase.
>>25153013aw, shucks. was hoping someone could dig something up>>25153778he supported mass female suffrage and poisoned the well of Marx's thought by leading socialism down a pathway which culminated in asinine shit like dependency theory, shifting concerns about class towards the persecution of women and minorities. that shit doesn't belong in socialism unless you're some kind of fifth columnist trying to undermine the entire project. Then I'd have to congratulate you, as you effectively made socialism toothless, as most factions were united by their hatred of religion more than anything else.
>>25155434Life is a disease, but it is all we have.
>>25158282>as most factions were united by their hatred of religion more than anything else.If these factions were united by their hatred of religion more than by their hatred of wage labor, then it is wrong.
They executed people for wearing glasses. Hotties in glasses are essential to my lust. I
>>25143107If he's a communist, as in an actual Marxist-Leninist or some other variant of tankie, you can one shot him by asking him how he would manage the input-output tables of his centrally planned economy to prevent supply shocks in heavy industry. Most actual commies, even the smart ones, don't think that hard about the implementation of the economic side of their philosophy. If he's a democratic socialist then he is basically just a liberal with a fresh coat of brown paint. You can argue against that if you'd like, but there really is no point.
