Are the whale lore digressions boring? For example: I read Budenbrooks and The Magic Mountain, which I liked, but the 2 page descriptions of the fucking curtains or the multiple page childish exposition of philosophical issues by the mouthpieces while they were walking were tiring.
>>25146078Maybe video games and anime are more your speed
>>25146085Maybe you shouldn't tie your ego to the books you read
>>25146094Look at how the video game and anime lover recoils
>>25146095This is a non answer
No, even the most dry and boring sections are written in breath-taking prose and usually have nuggets of insights and close with a banger.The most boring part for me was the rope mechanics for harpooners and the rib cage measurements, but taken as a whole it's not that long.It helps if you never watched whale documentaries and don't know how whaling was done.
>>25146098It is, but you're too gay and retarded to see it.
>>25146162>>25146095>Look at how the incel that identifies with a fucking book is baitedI can do this too, see? Now get the fuck off. Idiot.
>>25146078Some of them are, most of them aren't.
>>25146175>I was just pretending to be retarded
>>25146078For the Cetology chapter I took up my laptop and searched up each whale for a visual guide. Really added to the enjoyment of the chapter and has made me borderline obsessed with whales ever since. Such complex and diverse beings really make me doubt evolution being real.
>>25146654Its good to do the same for the whaling ship parts and their names, and all the whaling equipment and the diagram of how to slice up the whale to get the spermaceti (my book came with it).
>>25146654Just wait until you learn about ants. Called into question everything I thought I knew about biology and nature the more I thought about them, especially how their “brains” exist outside their body as it were but act in accordance with a collective superintelligence. I may be misguided but I firmly believe tight knit human societies also have an element of collective will or a collective unconscious but just operating on a much more subtle level. That collective will is sometimes channeled into individuals who carry the banner of great movements of world history and often without them even being aware of it, except in moments of clarity when the veil is pierced for just a moment. At least that’s how it appears to me, there’s a theme in there even greater than in Moby Dick but ants unfortunately ants as impressive as whales appearance wise
>>25146654I loved finding out that orcas not only weren't hunted, they were active friends of the whalers and would herd the bigger whales directly towards whaling ships, and in exchange once the whale was slaughtered the whalers would toss them meat as they peeled the big whale apart. My God orcas are mean bastards, the biggest assholes in the sea. But they're so smart. It's fascinating.
>>25146666to get what???
>>25147069The spermaceti to use for candles etc. They manually stimulated the animal to produce it
>>25147083
>>25147064Yeah they are apex predators, they are literally named whale killers yet are our friends.
>>25147069Nothing to do with sperm as in the sexual fluid.
I wonder what percentage of those that love the book are men or women.Pic related film about ships, hardened crewmen, frontier adventures etc has been universally lauded on /tv/. When I saw it I was surprised by the lack of women. It was a wankfest with homo undertones. Are Moby Dick readers moved by the same sensibilities?
>>25147120Moby dick has a ton of homoeroticism.
>>25146078I was in AP English in a private academy in high school and in my sophomore year we were assigned this book and had to write essays about it etc… One day in class we were sitting around discussing the plot and I realized that nobody in the class except for me and maybe one other boy had even really read it, and even he might have just been a better faker. The class was made up of about 15 girls and just 2 other boys besides me. Even the teacher didn’t read it. I sat and watched them debate about whether the narrator was actually in the book or not or if he was just a storyteller. At first they didn’t even remember his name but then somebody came up with Ishmael, that lead to a debate about whether the name was some sort of Homeric alias or metaphor. At some point I interrupted and them and explained he was very much the main character and reminded them that Queequeg had saved his life multiple times in the plot, even saving him once after he himself was already dead by allowing Ishmael to survive a shipwreck by holding onto his floating coffin. They all pretended to remember this. I’ll never forget that shit, bunch of frauds.
>>25147167>the main character Whoops. I meant a character despite not being the main character. I’m rushing this sorry
>>25146766Perhaps you should be the one to write the great ant novel, anon! I'll look into it.>>25147064They are devious little bastards, aren't they?
Any recommended non fiction whaling books?
>>25146078the most boring chapter of Moby Dick is not one-tenth as boring as the least boring chapter of The Magic Mountain
>>25147367I don't recall ever being bored by the Magic Mountain. Meanwhile I felt bored to death by the second half (everything past "I. THE FOLIO WHALE; II. the OCTAVO WHALE; III. the DUODECIMO WHALE. ") of Cetology.
>>25147064Highly intelligent animals tend to have a propensity for bullying and domineering, especially if they've got the strength and size to do it. You should watch the videos on YouTube of elephants bullying other creatures on the Savannah.
I'm 10 chapters in and ready to call it, I thought I was going on an exciting yet philosophical whale hunting adventure, not trudging around moping that my new cannibal boyfriend has a warm hug
Poor man's Blood meridian
>>25146078Interesting take OP. Here are a few suggestions that might be more to your taste:> Harry Potter> Animorphs> Percy Jackson> Series of Unfortunate Events> Matilda
>>25147982See>>25146094
>>25147143Yes but are the readers homos? Does the overall setting and characters (a leader/father paranoiac on a mission, followers, adventures in exotic places, absence of women) attract a certain kind of reader?
>>25146666>(my book came with it).First of all nice digits. Second of all what copy? The one on my kindle doesn’t have that, it just has some ridiculous “Extracts” intro where a curated collection of references to whales, whaling, and the Leviathan, gathered by a "Sub-Sub-Librarian" are there “to provide a literary, historical, and religious context to the novel.”
>>25148763Yes. They're called redditors
>>25149326It’s one of the most widely celebrated masterpieces in the history of human literature sir.
>>25147113what the absolute fuck is this, why don't they just have brain in their skull
>>25146666quads of truth has spoken>>25146078>guiseeeee is this book boringgggg guiseeeeee I don't wanna read Moby-Dick if it's boringggggg guiseeeeeeeefpbp >>25146085
>>25149293Not that poster but I believe he's referring to the Penguin Classics Deluxe Edition --- the illustrations are found in the back. It's a beauty of a book and also features a map of the course of the Pequod. Also, the extracts were put there by Herman Melville himself, along with Etymolgoy, setting up The Whale to be a nigh-mythical beast, in the subconscious of humanity since its beginning>And God created great whales First mention of any animal, by name, in the Bible. Clearly, Melville saw immense significance in this.
>>25149409Do people really not care if a novel is boring?
>>25149293>Second of all what copy?the three best editions of Moby-Dick are Penguin Classics, Oxford World's Classics, and Norton Critical Edition -- any of these three are good, they have lots of supplementary material (diagrams, maps, footnotes explaining references obscure to us, etc) and have excellent scholarly prefaces>some ridiculous “Extracts” intro where a curated collection of references to whales, whaling, and the Leviathan, gathered by a "Sub-Sub-Librarian" are there “to provide a literary, historical, and religious context to the novel.”awwww baby's first postmodernism, it almost brings a tear to my eye :,)
>>25149453You are not allowed to think this. You must slurp every masterpiece because they're masterpieces and you must become a slave under the writer and consensus.
>>25149453>>25149503>am I not intelligent enough to appreciate a universally acclaimed work of genius?>no, the book must be boring and everyone must be lyingYour minds are so interesting to me
>>25149479>awwww baby's first postmodernism, it almost brings a tear to my eye :,)Want to elaborate on that at all? Assume I’m as stupid as you obviously think I am, asshole
>>25149451>the extracts were put there by Herman Melville himselfProb wouldn’t have skipped it if I’d realized
>>25149508Let's say you are intelligent enough to "appreciate" it. Does it all of a sudden become not boring? And if so, how? Explain this process if you will.
>>25147143Only if you're a fuckign faggot edgelord retard. Queequeg and Ishmael are just good friends, brothers even. If you read any hOmoErotIciSm into it, your brain has been kiked by porn.
>>25149610The "process" is called enjoying it, you absolute black hole pleb jesus fuck.What do you even read books for? The action sequences? The sex scenes? No, wait, it's the plot, isn't it? Am I right? Artistry can fuck right off, you just want a recounting of events, what happened when, as plain as possible, no frills, no thoughts, your ideal book is something in the line of a wikipedia plot summary.And for some fucking reason you decided that what you want to discuss today is literature? Lad, hate to break it to ya, but so far you're not even able to SEE literature.
>>25150530That a story should not be about actual things actually happening is a wretched middle class relic of the industrial era. This development was the result of a new, resentful class of strivers (belonging to but not completely comprising the middle class), who didn't have the wealth, property, family nor intelligence to be truly elite. Desperate for recognition, they turned to "taste" and "culture" to become the gatekeepers of a new kind of aspirational "literature". Moby Dick, with arbitrary luck, became one of their gospels, a book most noteworthy for being ridiculed and ignored until this conceited vanguard reached critical mass in every one of the midwit institutions dedicated (truthfully) to supporting its own finances.It's ok to admit that you've been psyopped, you no longer have to pretend that you actually enjoyed Moby Dick.
>>25150547>vidya games NEED to have a story. It's literally impossible to boot up a game of Rogue or Wizardry and enjoy them just for their gameplay mechanics aloneThat's how you sound to me, anon.
>>25150530Ah, you seem to have fallen into the common trap of conflating craftsmanship and exposition with artistry. Shutting storytelling and characterization out of the domain of art entirely, or forfeiting restrictions on bloat and irrelevant matters that shatter the coherence of a piece, is a pitifully uninformed and revealing opinion. In music, for instance, the notes not played are just as important as the ones played; so it is with literature for those with the ears to hear the difference!
>>25150559I'm not sure what this video game tangent is about. You are pathetic middle class and always will be. So will your offspring. That's your lot in life. Stop using bad books as a status symbol.
>>25150574>storytelling and characterizationUnnecessary. Do you get mad at Bach for not including any lyrics in his fugues?
>>25146085fpbp, no other post itt is worth reading
>>25149610Nta, but it does take some amount of time and education to acquire and retain the necessary amount of baseline knowledge required to even genuinely understand the very first chapter of the damn book. He references the death of Cato, the metaphysical properties of water and the symbolic and historical power of the “call to the sea”, references the Greek fable of Narcissus, and goes on a discursive monologue about the Pythagorean Maxim, the Fates, and the relationship between money and evil. And the book has notoriously short chapters. How many high school kids are ready for that?I managed to get my hands on some sort of children’s version when I was little that was written in simple English, and I’m not going to lie and say it changed my life or anything stupid, but I liked it well enough for what it was. I gave the proper book an honest attempt in high school, and although I was not yet intelligent enough to appreciate it, I still recognized that this was my failing and not the author’s.
>>25150605The language is also very colourful. Not quite Ulysses tier, but way above your average novel. Someone new to reading would have to consult the dictionary a lot.
>>25149403They have a brain behind the skull IIRC, its from this milky white goodness that the quality candles and oil came from.
>>25149293I have the Alma Classics version.
>>25150605Yeah that's why an edition with the references to explain it is essential.
>>25150645Sure, but even then what fun is it to read a book that constantly makes mention of things you don’t have any internal mental recall on to begin with? Clarifications are one thing, but you still have to understand what the clarifications are clarifying
>>25149479I can second the Penguin version. Just the normal one, not deluxe. For some reason it's different from all my other Penguins, in that it's floppy and the spine doesn't crack despite me having read it 3-4 times already. It does have helpful illustrations and maps at the back (the Pequod's journey, outline of whaling ships and boats, equipment used for whaling that's mentioned in the book, outline of sperm whale and right whale)I also have a nice Easton Press that I got for 10€ that looks pretty on my shelf :)
>>25150655It's not that difficult, you understand some references and don't understand others, when you don't you simply flip to the end and read what it references, it's usually market with a star - *.It's still a buttersmooth exerience imo, just have a nice clip on bookmark on the references page.
>>25150662Sure, people who are used to that kind of experience already and read a lot of translations and primary sources etc.. won’t be bothered. I’m speaking more on people who are going into Moby Dick expecting a more traditional narrative and then get overwhelmed.
>>25150597Enjoy your Jacob Collier then?
>>25149580>think for me! think for me! spoonfeed meeeeeeeee!!!if you need the extracts / sub-sub-librarian parts "elaborated" to you then this isn't the board for you lmfao. read any of the three editions I recommended and just think about it a little bit>>25149610>does it all of a sudden become not boringif you're intelligent enough to appreciate it, it was never boring to begin with
>>25149682Faggot were you asleep for the entire part where they're squeezing literal fucking sperm with their hands and feel all lovey-dovey?
>>25150574>>25150597Moby Dick has a ton of kino storytelling and characterization. Moby Dick has it all. That's why it's so so good.
>>25150835NTA but spermaceti is not literal sperm in the sense that whales use it for reproduction. And that chapter is not homoerotic but broadly love the whole humankind erotic but the whole Queequeg - Ishmael duo clearly is.
>>25150605Highschool is way too young for MD, should go in it after college and some work experience.
>>25150838Of course it's not a reproductive fluid in a whale, my point is that Melville was screamingly aware of the overtones of the word "sperm" and is consciously evoking them
>>25150844This. I first read Moby-Dick when I was 25 and it shot up to my favourite novel spot almost instantly. I know for a fact that my high school self would've hated MD/Ulysses/GR and the like.
>>25150833>if you're intelligent enough to appreciate it, it was never boring to begin withSomeone might say the same about solving math equations. I think you're conflating intellectual satisfaction, which is broad and consistent across the many ways of inducing it, with a truly artistic experience, which is unique, personal, and irreproduceable.
>>25150547>>25150584What is this "middle class" shit you have fixated on? What's the conceit here, that you are a precocious street urchin whose natural intellect puts him above the common herd, or maybe we should envision you as an aristocrat dismissive of learning and culture because they received all that and more by virtue of blood and breeding?While not impossible, I find both of those options unlikely. What seems altogether more probable to me, is that we are looking at a pretty regular fellow, perhaps smarter than average, maybe even cultured in some respects, but woefully inadequate to the task of parsing literature as an artform, and feeling insecure about that, perceiving it as a failing. But could someone as amazing as yourself have failings? The very notion is ridiculous. Indeed, an investigation into the history of this artform quickly reveals what you already subconsciously realized with your superior intellect. It's all a sham! This isn't actually literature! Nobody actually likes this rubbish! It's all just a bunch of bougie tryhards pretending! They're just trying to be aristos, the poor fools, not even realizing that's not what this is about!Now, if I were a middle class clod with ideas above my station, that would indeed shame me deeply. But, at the end of the day, we are both just a couple of assholes posting opinions on an anonymous message board, shouting into the void. The only difference between us is that I like Moby Dick, and you are a dumb homosexual.
>>25150914>Someone might say the same about solving math equationsyes>... you're conflating intellectual satisfaction... with a truly artistic experience these are the same thing
>>25150914NTA but Moby Dick is so good because it combines the encyclopedic references, the whaling parts with a truly fun and compelling adventure narrative with fun characters.Even the dry parts usually end with some insight and are written in great prose.There is that one scene which is basically a 16 year old metalheads dream (dont wanna spoil just in case) that made the kid inside me scream with Joy.
>>25150914Books that offer intellectual satisfaction CAN also offer a unique artistic, emotional experience. Moby-Dick made me connect with the world in all its splendour and beauty. Gravity's Rainbow made me feel feverish, depressed and paranoid, it felt like I was developing psychosis.
>>25146078moby dick is like if your autistic roommate comes home from the bank with a gunshot wound but banks are their special interest so they can't stay focused on relaying the story of how they got shot without delving into diatribes about how banks work, but somehow contextualizing the event so thoroughly makes it all the more human and meaningful
>>25150833I wasn’t asking you to elaborate on the insult, not the extracts. I made a dumb mistake but I was wondering what the fuck you were babbling about with “babies first postmodernism” I don’t care about your thoughts on the extracts. At this point I don’t care about any of your thoughts going forward. Feel free not to reply and leave it at that.
>>25151134*I was asking you to elaborate on the insult*
>>25150944That’s pretty good. It’s definitely special. I rember thinking to myself “what the fuck kind of writer is this guy? It’s like he doesn’t give a single fuck about sales of this thing” when I first read it.
>>25151134it was a little funny when I thought you meant "explain the extracts to me" but it's extremely fucking funny that you wanted me to explain "baby's first postmodernism" instead, you're way dumber than I thought you were and I already thought you weren't very clever LMAO I have to remember this is the kind of person I'm arguing with on /lit/
>>25146085>look im spushul because I read some inane ramblings with outdated information about whales, but it's so butiful, because it is, okay?
>>25151377>unaware that Melville was a whaler for years>unaware that the errors are mostly intentional>unaware that these errors are key to the book's epistemological commentary>unaware of many, many things
>>25151388>>25151388>Defending an author's inability to write shit that isn't 1000 pages long, simply out of pure and unadulterated elitistic faggotryPeople say the same shit with other 'classics'>Quixote is a dumbass senior acting like a retard>But but look, the prose is so butiful, look at the way he used the word 'retard' here, so deep, so inspiring
>>25151392>1000 pages long is too heckin long!!!>"elitistic">"butiful">>>/tv/ is over there
>>25151392Moby-Dick is nowhere near 1000 pages long. Did you even read it?
>>25151373>this is the kind of person I'm arguing with on /lit/See that’s exactly your problem. I was never arguing with you or even trying to.
>>25151421lmfao that means "when I have arguments on /lit/ with other people, you are the kind of person on the other end of those arguments," not "you and I are currently having an argument." reading really isn't your thing, huh? (just so you don't get confused again, that means that I don't think you're very good at understanding written text)
The Cetology chapter is legendary and many of the other digressions are fascinating but what is actually a problem which hasn't been mentioned once in this thread is the pacing. The first third of the book expertly balances digressions with narrative and character development. The last third is sublime. But the middle third is nothing but digression after digression: nothing significant really happens. And yes you could argue this is Melville's literary expression of the slow, routine passage of time at sea.
>>25151434Buddy, I assure you I understand what you’re saying. I sure don’t think you understand what I’m saying though. Since you clearly need the last word you can have it. I won’t reply anymore
>>25151440>Buddy, I assure you I understand what you’re saying.uh huh>I was asking you to elaborate on the insult>Want to elaborate on that at all?lol>Since you clearly need the last word you can have it. I won’t reply anymoreuh huh>At this point I don’t care about any of your thoughts going forward. Feel free not to reply and leave it at that.LOL
Get it? Do you get it? Huh?
>>25149508You are the fascinating one, sweaty. You discard the most sacred thing one has, his subjectivity, and bow down to categories like "intelligence" "acclaimed" "genius" etc like a good cuck slave. The fascinating thing is how deficient your ego is that you need to tie it to those categories to make you feel what, better than others? This "competition" you reflexively feel is even more funny desu
>>25149479>>25151134I also didn't get that. What did he mean by this>awwww baby's first postmodernism
>>25151478>got filtered by moby-dick, knows it, and is upset about it>lashes out at everyone else instead of admitting his own shortcomings as a reader>expresses this in buzzwords and pseudbabbleI can smell the insecurity radiating off your post
>>25151502>No uMoby Dicklets not sending their best I see
>>25147143It's not gay of it's Queequeg
>>25146078>the 2 page descriptions of the fucking curtainsdid he actually describe curtains for two pages, or are you just referencing the meme?
>>25151721Oh that’s a meme? I was wondering what he was talking about. I thought it was a reference to some kind of companion material.
>>25149332As opposed to what, dog literature?
>>25151838I’ve got a guy on one shoulder telling me to admit that you got me there and compliment your joke, but I’ve also got a guy on the other shoulder telling me to make a racist joke instead.
>>25151406Look, elitist shitlord, 1000 pages isn't the problem. The problem is 1000 pages of bullshit that you can 'butiful' and I will have to spell it out for you, because you are busy snorting your own farts. The term 'butiful' is used in an ironic way. You dipshits claim we don't read Moby Dick because 'it's hard', no, we don't read it because it's retarded. If you want an actually hard book, read pic related.
>>25151747Yeah, the blue curtains is a meme about how symbolism doesn't actually exist in fiction, which is why it's so confusing. If he was bothered by really long descriptions of things, why can't he use a real example from the book?
I can't be the only one that actually enjoys Moby Dick, maybe I'm weird but I will likely read it 8 times.Even the technical parts have an amazing prose. And for all the rare and 'difficult' adjectives there are usually normal ones in the slew as well.
>>25146085Fpbp but also… I-i kinda like anime.
How can people feel this book is boring? It’s written beautifully, and even if I’m not particularly interested in the encyclopaedic parts, it was written well enough for me to actually pay attention, I like learning things regardless of what it’s about. But what baffles me is, even if the astonishing prose isn’t what you read it for, but the adventure, the story itself, which is one of the most epic pieces of fiction of all time, (later in the book felt almost as “grand” as paradife loft) is not only far from boring, it’s one of the most exciting things I’ve ever read! It’s kinda gay though.
>>25152354Of course you aren’t, kek. When everybody generally agrees that a story is great for well over a hundred years that usually means it is. Art that can maintain it’s popularity and critical acclaim through multiple generations of people, transitions/evolution of style in the medium, and even political systems and government regimes, there’s probably a good reason. You can call it whatever you want and rage about sheeple and how much of an individual you are with your own special brave independent opinions, but the fact is that a lot of people who are a lot smarter than you are probably agreed for a reason and didn’t actually suffer from a mass delusion. I thought the majority of anons itt were defending it anyway.
>>25152366He spent over 100 pages dawdling around on the shore doing absolutely nothing except knocking you on the head with the themes and having gay sex with an aborigine.... whereas by the tenth page Michael Crichton would have taken you deep into the murky bowels of the boat, got you toasting and slapping your knees with the crew one and all, explained the mission, warned you of the dangers, sewed the seeds of plot twists, set up the character conflicts and betrayals, relayed the dizzying amount of technology on display. Honestly I enjoyed Jurassic Park way more than Moby Dick, and no-one here, if honest and had read both, would dispute.
>>25152379I read Jurassic Park when I was ten years old.
>>25152379Well if that’s how you feel then I won’t argue with you, your interests clearly align elsewhere. As I’m sure you are aware, that kind of talk doesn’t sit well with /lit/, you’ll get a lot of flak for being a “plotfag”; a shame though, you should try and appreciate the literature itself a little more, I always recommend Alice for anyone wanting to actually get into the prose, its a children’s book but its better written than a lot of plot oriented stuff and it’s simple and fun.
>>25152391Sounds like it set you up for a lifetime of reading
>>25152392Alice is lovely, as is the Hunting of the Snark.I think the remarkable thing about it is that, even though it's a children's book, it preps you to enjoy high modernists/postmodernists like Joyce and Pinecone. They have the same preoccupation with language, puns, humour, surrealism, sense and nonsense etc. And Alice manages to accomplish this without all their intellectual heft, it's a fucking children's book.’Twas brillig, and the slithy toves Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;All mimsy were the borogoves, And the mome raths outgrabe.
>>25152400It was good, but I can’t give it that credit. I had some goosebumps books when I was really little, but I got my hands on an old paperback copy of Nightmares and Dreamscapes at a very young age that really got me into it. It was a collection of short stories so it was easy enough and I guess my parents didn’t care what I read so long as I was reading. I read Stephen King like it was crack growing up. I probably read everything he wrote before the year 2000 something.
>>25152405>They have the same preoccupation with language, puns, humour, surrealism, sense and nonsense etc. And Alice manages to accomplish this without all their intellectual heft, it's a fucking children's book.Well said, Carroll too in a similar way that Joyce does in capturing the consciousness/subconscious and the psychosexual, captures the mind of a child, the often frightening but whimsical experience of being a kid surrounded by adults who talk nonsense. Also like Joyce he was probably schizophrenic.
>>25152376It was rejected upon its release and remained obscure and unpopular for decades until critics and scholars injected it into the public consciousness like 70 years later
>>25152453That whole “not being recognized until much later” thing is not at all unusual when it comes to art you know.
>>25152453It WAS recognised upon release. Just not in the US. It was very well-regarded in England.Americans have shit taste when it comes to art in general, just look at how they treated Recognitions.
>>25146078This story has the most spirit of any tale ever told, and Melville wrote in a letter that he was developing Ahab to be even more dramatic than Macbeth - and he was right. Ahab is the best. Talk not to me of blasphemy, man; I'd strike the sun if it insulted me.>>25146116100% everyone struggles with those parts - as a whole it has a purpose in the character and building the world.
>>25152470>Melville wrote in a letter that he was developing Ahab to be even more dramatic than Macbeth Audacious prick… now if only he hadn’t succeeded I could rip into him for it, alas, he didn’t.
>>25152468>It WAS recognised upon release. Just not in the US. It was very well-regarded in England.False. It was received more warmly by critics, but still quickly faded into obscurity.>Americans have shit taste when it comes to art in general, just look at how they treated Recognitions.A joyless book kept alive solely by critics, a quintessential work of pretentious non-art>>25152463But that person said it's survived the approval of several generations even though it was rejected by the generation it was made for. Not to mention most people today actually do not like the book, it's just found enormous popularity amongst new readers of "serious literature." He also said that everyone has agreed it's a great story for over a hundred years, despite most of the praise for it I've seen having nothing to do with the story and often involving open contempt for people who read for stories.
>>25152495>joylessWhat? The book is hilarious, it's like saying there's no humour in Ulysses.
>>25152495You admit one post up that it wasn’t even “rejected” by critics or audiences, just not recognized by a wider audience than the critical elite. Once it was recognized everything following that point remains true about >>25152376 Great art sometimes a while to build up steam, nbd.
>>25152525I didn't admit that; it was rejected by nearly everyone except a few critics, as you ironically admit. The rest of my post countering that post remains true as well; it did not withstand the scrutiny of generations as several rejected it, and it is not praised as a great story as its fans primarily hold up the prose and philosophy as their reasons for liking it, having open contempt for storytelling, as has been demonstrated by several in this thread.>the fact is that a lot of people who are a lot smarter than you are probably agreed for a reasonthis helps to validate my hypothesis
>>25152765>it was rejected by nearly everyone except a few critics, as you ironically admit. Not true. https://theconversation.com/moby-dick-doesnt-deserve-the-difficult-label-this-sea-romance-was-once-loved-by-office-workers-sailors-and-children-252764As for the rest of your post, it was all just repetition of your same well known and idiotic arguments with zero attempt to actually learn or grow. You have your position and you’re here to win not talk. Sucks for you.
>>25152392>you’ll get a lot of flak for being a “plotfag”This is why literature isn't taken seriously. Literature is supposed to be a source of entertainment. People bitched about novels when the printing press started spreading, in the same way boomers bitch about tiktok and fortnite today.It is only through masturbatory self-delusions, that people want to assign greater meaning to words in a book. Ultimately being a 'plotfag' is the correct approach to literature, since it's primarily a form of entertainment, not meant to be a gateway to derive mental orgasms from words, or the position of them in a text. That was a later machination, and a funny one I must say.Ultimately, elitist shitlords can masturbate to the words 'doth' and 'art' in a Shakespeare novel as much as they want, but they should realize many of us see literature as a source of entertainment, something that TELLS something meaningful, not a snoozefest with 'pretty words'.
>>25152840Who sez plotless novels can't be entertaining? Shakespeare was supremely entertaining, as is Joyce.>The viceregal houseparty which included many wellknown ladies was chaperoned by Their Excellencies to the most favourable positions on the grandstand while the picturesque foreign delegation known as the Friends of the Emerald Isle was accommodated on a tribune directly opposite. The delegation, present in full force, consisted of Commendatore Bacibaci Beninobenone (the semiparalysed doyen of the party who had to be assisted to his seat by the aid of a powerful steam crane), Monsieur Pierrepaul Petitépatant, the Grandjoker Vladinmire Pokethankertscheff, the Archjoker Leopold Rudolph von Schwanzenbad-Hodenthaler, Countess Marha Virága Kisászony Putrápesthi, Hiram Y. Bomboost, Count Athanatos Karamelopulos, Ali Baba Backsheesh Rahat Lokum Effendi, Señor Hidalgo Caballero Don Pecadillo y Palabras y Paternoster de la Malora de la Malaria, Hokopoko Harakiri, Hi Hung Chang, Olaf Kobberkeddelsen, Mynheer Trik van Trumps, Pan Poleaxe Paddyrisky, Goosepond Prhklstr Kratchinabritchisitch, Borus Hupinkoff, Herr Hurhausdirektorpresident Hans Chuechli-Steuerli, Nationalgymnasiummuseumsanatoriumandsuspensoriumsordinaryprivatdocentgeneralhistoryspecialprofessordoctor Kriegfried Ueberallgemein. All the delegates without exception expressed themselves in the strongest possible heterogeneous terms concerning the nameless barbarity which they had been called upon to witness. An animated altercation (in which all took part) ensued among the F. O. T. E. I. as to whether the eighth or the ninth of March was the correct date of the birth of Ireland’s patron saint. In the course of the argument cannonballs, scimitars, boomerangs, blunderbusses, stinkpots, meatchoppers, umbrellas, catapults, knuckledusters, sandbags, lumps of pig iron were resorted to and blows were freely exchanged. The baby policeman, Constable MacFadden, summoned by special courier from Booterstown, quickly restored order and with lightning promptitude proposed the seventeenth of the month as a solution equally honourable for both contending parties. The readywitted ninefooter’s suggestion at once appealed to all and was unanimously accepted. Constable MacFadden was heartily congratulated by all the F. O. T. E. I., several of whom were bleeding profusely. Commendatore Beninobenone having been extricated from underneath the presidential armchair, it was explained by his legal adviser Avvocato Pagamimi that the various articles secreted in his thirtytwo pockets had been abstracted by him during the affray from the pockets of his junior colleagues in the hope of bringing them to their senses. The objects (which included several hundred ladies’ and gentlemen’s gold and silver watches) were promptly restored to their rightful owners and general harmony reigned supreme.
>>25152805So the article admits that the novel pretty much disappeared from the historical record in 1960 and was revived primarily by scholars in 1920, but he was able to find a few references to the novel by laypeople in the intermission so allows himself to extrapolate that the book was actually a popular genre fiction thriller. Which of course if you tried to claim today, its fans would shudder with horror and try to tell you how it's nothing of the sort but is actually a profound meditation on the human condition and is deeply allegorical and the prose etc etc and that plotfags need not apply. And you know this too. I find it amazing how people can blind themselves to their own actual lived experience and replace it with a preferred belief.>zero attempt to actually learn or growMeaning what? Convincing myself that my own private experience with the book wasn't real or was wrong?>You have your position and you’re here to win not talk.Same could be said about you, but the actual facts of reality indicate I'm right
>>25152840If you can't derive entertainment from the beauty of the written word you are unequivocally a brainlet and should go back to anime and video games
>>25152840Ultimately your closed minded and insecure approach to art and literature will serve only to limit both your horizons and the depth and richness of your present life. A work of art is an experience, it’s not something objective or measurable, and the mindset that you take into an experience with you often makes all the difference. Ultimately, this claim that you’re championing “the correct approach” to reading is a statement so absurdly vainglorious that it leads me to believe that you don’t even believe your own arguments.
>>25152879The article “admits” that although the novel wasn’t some smash hit with wider audiences upon release like fucking Winnie the poo was, it was well received by critics and audiences alike from the start. Do you not understand the difference between underappreciated and rejected? Because that’s the root of our argument at this point. >you know this too. I find it amazing how people can blind themselves to their own actual lived experience and replace it with a preferred belief.That’s your problem. You didn’t like it and that’s fine. It doesn’t mean nobody likes it. Why is this so hard for you and why are you so emotionally invested in it? Did a guy with a whale tattoo slap your girlfriend’s ass?
>>25152852Cyclops is hilarious, when the citizen throws the biscuit tin at Bloom, that’s the real kicker. Oxen of the Sun invokes keks too. >Leopold was couth to him sithen it had happed that they had had ado each with other in the house of misericord where this learningknight lay by cause the traveller Leopold came there to be healed for he was sore wounded in his breast by a spear wherewith a horrible and dreadful dragon was smitten him for which he did do make a salve of volatile salt and chrism as much as he might suffice.
>>25152840That’s great and all anon but hey! Have I got just the medium to recommend, actually it’s two mediums, they’re not really art per se but they’d probably be more your speed, can you guess what they are? (Hint: they’ve been suggested a few times in this thread already!)
>>25152405>'I see you're admiring my little box,' the Knight said in a friendly tone. 'It's my own invention -- to keep clothes and sandwiches in. You see I carry it upside-down, so that the rain ca'n't get in.'
i found only the first one to be really grating just because it was really long
>>25152895>it was well received by critics and audiences alike from the start.It literally doesn't prove that though>You didn’t like it and that’s fine. It doesn’t mean nobody likes it. Why is this so hard for you and why are you so emotionally invested in it? This is very reminiscent of the whole why do you care if guys wear dresses and take shits in the girl's bathroom argument. It's as simple as I see what I consider a bizarre delusion and feel compelled to call it that. Maybe it's harsh but you'll have to deal with it.
>>25152949I care because men can rape women. Moby Dick can’t sneak into a bathroom and spy on my daughter and then just claim tranny and get away with it. It’s just a book.
>>25146078people act like they're some huge roadblock where the book comes screeching to a halt but its not some clinical wikipedia description of whales, its cetology as told by Ishmael, its still written in the same way the previous parts of the book are but its about the narrator going off on an autistic tangent about whales in the middle of telling you this story. Its funny and still engaging because Ishmael is funny and engaging
>>25152923 “Reeling and Writhing, of course, to begin with,” the Mock Turtle replied; “and then the different branches of Arithmetic—Ambition, Distraction, Uglification, and Derision.”“I never heard of ‘Uglification,’” Alice ventured to say. “What is it?”The Gryphon lifted up both its paws in surprise. “What! Never heard of uglifying!” it exclaimed. “You know what to beautify is, I suppose?”“Yes,” said Alice doubtfully: “it means—to—make—anything—prettier.”“Well, then,” the Gryphon went on, “if you don’t know what to uglify is, you are a simpleton.”Alice did not feel encouraged to ask any more questions about it, so she turned to the Mock Turtle, and said “What else had you to learn?”“Well, there was Mystery,” the Mock Turtle replied, counting off the subjects on his flappers, “—Mystery, ancient and modern, with Seaography: then Drawling—the Drawling-master was an old conger-eel, that used to come once a week: he taught us Drawling, Stretching, and Fainting in Coils.”“What was that like?” said Alice.“Well, I can’t show it you myself,” the Mock Turtle said: “I’m too stiff. And the Gryphon never learnt it.”“Hadn’t time,” said the Gryphon: “I went to the Classics master, though. He was an old crab, he was.”“I never went to him,” the Mock Turtle said with a sigh: “he taught Laughing and Grief, they used to say.”“So he did, so he did,” said the Gryphon, sighing in his turn; and both creatures hid their faces in their paws.“And how many hours a day did you do lessons?” said Alice, in a hurry to change the subject.“Ten hours the first day,” said the Mock Turtle: “nine the next, and so on.”“What a curious plan!” exclaimed Alice.“That’s the reason they’re called lessons,” the Gryphon remarked: “because they lessen from day to day.”
>>25152949What a retarded argument that makes no sense. Of course the plotnigger is a tranny apologist too, get THE FUCK out of here you faggot.
>>251496820/10 bait you humiliation fetish fag. we all know melville was a homo let's not lie to ourselves now
>>25147064do other orcas know that the white spot isnt eyes or do they think their eyes are also the white spot. Do you think they get it?
>>25152886Go back to masturbating to Shakespeare sonnets, faggot.>>25152889Literature is a form of entertainment. It's no different from a comic or a manga. It's the academic framework and retards like >>25152886 who want to object to that fundamental premise. I am not insecure. I crave to read something that has meaning and delves deep into subjects, that has been hard to find, because of that snobbery that places inane focus on words, rather than meaning. That is why I tend to read philosophy and nonfiction more, because of how little emphasis some writers put in providing anything but a depiction of pretty words.
>>25152981Reading pretty words is entertaining.
>>25152981Just say you’re not into it, no need to make a big song and dance about it. We get it, you don’t value pretty words and prefer nonfiction, simple, you’re trying to argue as if you’re objectively correct about prose/poetry having little value in itself, so people are going to bite back.
>>25152981It’s smart to think critically and not to blindly accept whatever the supposed academic consensus is. You should form your own opinions and you shouldn’t lie to yourself or others about those opinions.These are important and admirable qualities to have, certainly, as no one ever actually learns anything important if they don’t think on it for themselves. With all that said, I’ll also confess that, at least at this time in my life, I primarily spend my reading time on non-fiction too (mostly military, history, and military history). But I’ve read all the classics and I’ve certainly forced myself to more or less endure a few of them. For me Moby Dick is just not one of those books.
>>25152981>>25152840>I'm retarded
>>25153200Wow imagine believing in false dichotomies.Let me use your same logic.Can you read pic related? No, then by definition, you are the retard. Now go back to masturbating to words, faggot.
>>25153220>first year undergrad level mathsYou're genuinely too young for Moby-Dick. See >>25150844>>25150855
>>25153220it's not that tough of a book that you think it is, most of mathfags I met can only perform these mathematical steps in ordered way after lot of practice. My point is most of these books are about rigour than any genuine attempts at reaching new conclusions.t. bureaucrat and part time retard who left engineering job after few years
>>25153472From my experience, real insight starts being necessary once proofs are involved. Calculus just teaches you how to calculate shit mechanically, and Analysis teaches you how to actually construct proofs. Might be just my cunt.
>>25153506I honestly don't see the point of it, that is my problem. Sure constructing proofs are really interesting but it doesn't tell give me like I am doing something genuine, I solved so much maths but it never gave me the thrill, absurdity, intensity of reading something like transcendental aesthetics. I guess maths is just not my thing but everyone(read my parents) said STEM is what "real" intelligent men must do. Good Thing I am free from it now.
>>25153528I was on both sides of the divide, both a STEMfag and enjoyer of poetry/experimental literature. Solving equations and fucking around with geometry gave me genuine joy. That moment where everything comes together, all the terms cancel each other out? Pure sex.It's not without its side effects though. I see literature as a mountain to climb, a challenge to overcome, a puzzle to solve. Pynchon is like catnip to me, but most realists just leave me confused.
>>25150835>>25150838>>25152967Nope. You faggots are just proving my point. Facts:Sperm from a sperm whale is not the same as sperm from testes.Melville was not suffering from homosexuality.Queequeg and Ishmael were not faggots (unlike you).There is no brain inside that ugly head of yours. Only sex. The kikes have ruined you and it's amusing, satisfactory and vindicating as fuck to know that you'll never be able to enjoy a masterpiece like Moby Dick in its full glory. Faggots dont get to have nice things.
>>25150845If you're a retard, yes.
>>25155431>>25155440>They hunt "sperm" whale This >>25147120This>>25147143Admit it, it's 2026
>>25155431Kek, bodied
>>25155431>>25155440>Melville was le heckin based trad west writer bros total genius and Moby-Dick is heckin glorious>If you think the genius who wrote the glorious Moby-Dick intended the world's most obvious double entendre then... then... uh... YOU'RE A JOO FAGGOT!!!!!never change /lit/
>>25155579>heheh you know what is also called SPERM just like the sperm that comes out of the heckin PEENIS?? The sperm of the whale xDD I gotta suck some cock when I'm finished writing this gay fanfiction.This is what you think Melvilles thought process was like. Moby Dick is unironically great literature, we're not going to have a debate about this. You're just going to continue your degenerate shitflinging, you monkey.
>>25155630I agree with you, it is great literature. Speaking of great literature here's part of a review Melville wrote of one of Hawthorne's books>Already I feel that this Hawthorne has dropped germinous seeds into my soul. He expands and deepens down, the more I contemplate him; and further, and further, shoots his strong New England roots into the hot soil of my Southern soul.This will make you very upset
>>25155640>It's real Mega kek
>>25155640You’ll catch more flies with honey anon. There are a lot of good reasons why anons react the way they do to this kind of stuff. Not the least of which being popular culture’s seemingly reflex tendency to gaywash so many historical figures, especially creatives, with or without compelling evidence.
I thought Melville's faggotry was common knowledge.
>>25155640Lol beyond saving... Nothing about this is gay.
>>25146078I was disappointed in ahab from this book, due to expectations I had about the character from before reading it. otherwise I enjoyed it and learned a lot about whales, whaling and sailing.
>>25155684>Nothing about this is gay.
>>25155685What expectations did you have and why?
>>25155688To all normal literate people these are stylistic devices.To drop seeds into soul (soil) -> To be an inspiration, to start an idea one can benefit from especially so after some time has passed. Also a double entendre.To shoot roots into hot soil -> To have the initially planted ideas mature and take shape. It further plays into the same motif. The soil is hot because there's a lot of sun outside, presenting good conditions to have plentiful harvest.Where do you get the homoeroticness from this? Out of your ass? Porn is proven to reducd gray matter, anon. Take a break for a while.
>>25155734So what exactly is your contention here? Is it >a) there's no homosexual double entendre at all, intentional or unintentional (this is retarded)>b) there is but Melville somehow wasn't aware of it (somehow this is even more retarded as you have to believe that a genius like Melville didn't realize how faggy he sounds)>c) there is and Melville was aware of it but didn't make it sound less gay because... because... uh... HE'S NOT GAY OKAY HE'S JUST NOT!!! >d) [incoherent frothy screeching about trannies, or joos, or whatever buzzword you think of next] You don't really have a good option here anon, Melville was at bare minimum a little faggy, that's fine, Moby-Dick is still a work of genius
>>25155799There is no homosexual entendre for non-faggots. I accept your concession.
>>25155734>t. closeted homosexual
>>25157385This kneejerk reaction of "muhh projection" or "no u" is not only retarded, in this case it's not even remotely relevant to what is being discussed.I could be the most homosexual faggot of all, even trumping your fagginess in a hypothetical scenario, since it's not possible in reality, it would still not make Moby Dick or Melville any gayer.
I notice with a long lasting thread that initially starts with a provocative negative statement about a book/author is met of course with immediate backlash, until later, when negative comments become more and more frequent until it becomes a hate thread. Very amusing /lit/.
>>25157398It's obviously gay. You're voluntarily deluding yourself and in doing so showing everyone what a fag you are.
>>25157398Why do you want it so much to not be gay, it’s pretty gay and I love the book, stop being an insecure faggot.
>>25157418>>25157426It's not about what I want or what I don't want. It's about the truth. I'm sure there are some great gay works of art and also authors. Brokeback Mountain for example was a good movie. Moby Dick/Melville is just not one of them, sorry.
>>25146078The digressions are boring only when Melville specifically focuses on whales. But most of the time, his digressions are excuses to mention economy, anthropology, philosophy or even religion and he's using whales as a starting point. These are some of the best sections.
>>25157380>>25157398>>25157442>because... because... uh... HE'S NOT GAY OKAY HE'S JUST NOT!!!
>moby DICK>book about SEAMEN>hunting a SPERM whaleare you starting to catch on?
so was melville a faggot or not can someone just fucking tell me
>>25158899Maybe; maybe not. Does it matter?
>>25158899From the book:>I squeezed that sperm till a strange sort of insanity came over me; and I found myself unwittingly squeezing my co-laborers' hands in it... let us all squeeze ourselves into each other; let us squeeze ourselves universally into the very milk and sperm of kindnessFrom some other letters to Hawthorne: >"I feel that the Godhead is broken up like the bread at the Supper, and that we are the pieces. Hence this oneness, then, this loveliness. I feel that I shall leave the world entirely satisfied and at rest, for I have come to know you.">"Your heart beat in my ribs and mine in yours, and both in God's... I feel that the divine magnet is in you, and my needle trembles to it.">"I shall sit down with you and we will talk of our souls... and we will strip ourselves of all our disguises and appear as we are."
>>25159149There's nothing gay about this. Male friendship like this just can't exist in the modern world because it's spiritually dead.
>>25147120>>25147143I'm not that insecure as to care about that
>>25158899You'll see the world as you are, anon.
>>25159172Indeed he thought Hawthorne as a dark brooding "friend" and was thinking of him long after Hawthorne ghosted him>To have known him, to have loved him,After loneness long;And then to be estranged in life,And neither in the wrong;And now for death to set his seal —Ease me, a little ease, my song!
>>25159172Ain’t nothing gay about you and your best bud giving each other a couple a handjobs now and then.
>>25159224That's the good kind of gay with a mentor that pollinates you with the seed of wisdom or the kind where you stimulate each other's creative flows. Think ancient Greece or the sacred band of Thebes.
>>25146078bro i thought it was so fucking funny the scene when the savage initially climbs into bed with the main character and turns out the lighthas been a while since i read this booka lot of the gems in this book, but also a lot of poetic stuff that made me not to entertainedall around i liked the book and am glad i read it
>>25147921You are two twenty-sevenths of the way through, anon
>>25149584They're like a few pages long. Why are you people so eager to skip secondary material?
>>25162004The “nitty-gritty” so to speak. Not speaking for myself, but I assume that’s their purpose in skipping secondary material.
>>25162004>Why are you people so eager to skip secondary material?Well before I could possibly hope to answer that I’d need to know who or what you think I am. I forgot for a second that I was supposed to have my guard up at all times on this website like it was some sort of prison or insane asylum and I got carried away and a bit overfamiliar. I haven’t read Moby Dick since high school, this thread inspired me to download a free copy on my kindle and leaf through the intro and read the first three chapters. My copy barely had any supplementary material, no footnote links to citations or references, and I assumed the “extracts” section was about as worthless as the edition itself is. Which is why in my post I literally asked people to recommend alternative editions.
