>>25158880
>Artesia
Such a shame Smylie only knows how to draw one face.

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I'm sure THIS thread will be high-quality and VERY productive and interesting with many UNIQUE and INFORMATIVE posts...

beyblade beyblade let it rip

This is the Bakker thread. People wishing to discuss Bakker stay HERE.

>>25158907
Castrate and gut yourself.

I will watch Project Hail Mary with my parents

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Daily reminder.

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King of /sffg/.

Simple as.

Where does one start with Terry Pratchett?

>>25159195
Do you think he keeps his bakkussy honeyed?

>>25159252
Pick a narrative (Guards, Witches, Wizards) and start reading along that line

>>25159273
Do the books have a continuity between them or are the stories stand alone?

What is the best book adaptation into TV/Cinema that you've ever seen?

>>25159195
fucking cunt, finish your god damn books

>>25159352
I never read the Lord of the Rings, but I enjoyed the films.

>>25159344
There's a continuity along the narrative lines. Death novels are mostly standalone but Guards Witches ans Wizards need to be read in order

>>25159424
I appreciate it. But Guards, Witches and Wizards are too broad for me to pick and chose. Can you detail a little bit better on what I can expect?

>>25159352
The new DUNC Movies are alright. Although I have some reservations with both the cast and the next installment.

>>25159363
He probably will. He's still young.

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What was the point of this scene?

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>>25159475
He has a thing for sticks.

I gave in to Bakkerschizo and started reading The Darkness that Comes Before unironically.

The prose is not bad, but his naming is turbocancer. Cant say much else yet.

>>25159475
entire series has no point

>>25159434
>Guards
Urban setting. Focused on the equivalent of beat cops. Main character is Captain Samuel Vimes, who wants nothing more than to keep his streets straight and ends up mixed in ever increasing racial and political tensions.
>Wizards
Mixed settings. This is actually two narrative lines that are connected to each other: some novels have a specific protagonist (Rincewind, a weak and cowardly wizard who keeps doing heroics unwittingly) and some others are about the broader life of the Unseen Academy - the wizard circle which consists of mostly lazy old men who nevertheless create costant trouble.
>Witches
Rural setting. Witches are (mostly) wise women who deal with magic mishaps in the country. Some of these are actually pretty serious. The novels eventually connect to the Tiffany Aching and the Wee Free Men sub-series which are the last Sir Terry wrote before dying.
>Death
DEATH, who always speaks in ALL CAPS, starts out as a concept and develops a personality through interaction with humans.

>>25159485
Understandable. I would recommend using the Wiki and the fan-made map. I can't post it here since it's10 MB. If you have questions feel free to ask away.

>>25159421
It doesn't have Tom Bombadil's Forest of Faggotry, that was the most important part of the books!!!

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For the handful here who read Born Under a Black Sun, what stuff did you like/dislike about it? I am outlining a new story that’s going to be maritime science fiction

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I'm two thirds into this book. Does it get any better? It honestly feels straight like Chinese Naruto. Are the other books any better?

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To the anon that wanted to self-publish. I recently came across this. I can neither attest to the authors nor the quality of the works here. But just to let you know that they apparently exist.

>>25159538
Stop slandering China. It's an American book.

>>25159549
Answer my question. Are the other books any better or not?

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.

>>25159552
According to the poll, yes.

Your response?

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>>25159475
It gets worse.

>>25159546
Has anyone here actually read any of these? I'm not sure I'm brave enough to commit.

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I actually concede.
>Strong start
>Nothing happens
>Nothing happens
>Thugs her braid
>Annoying descriptions
>Nothing happens
>Nothing happens
>Something happens at the end

This is just the same book over and over again, is it not?

I watched more videos of Ada Palmer talking about history her take on Da Vinci invokes...some worries about the capacity to engage with abstract social concepts in her books. Its very rare that somebody who views science so blindingly ideally, has the capacity to engage with any social, or philosophical concept, deeply. Because science is so fundamentally surface level, even when "deep". But that wasnt really my problem so much as how her uses of science is so encompassing that it gets to be more than it is, encompass and represent more than it should, and once you think like that, you don't need to engage with deep social or philosophical critique, because science has the answer for all you need, by virtue of being an arm of economics (progress) and social dissemination/culture (shared knowledge)

I debated just linking the video, but unfortunately not many of you are actually that interested in the concepts and themes that sci fi or fantasy deals with, atleast it doesn't seem you are. Its my mistake. I decided to read fiction and fantasy, so that I could engage with philosophical concepts, without the difficulty and arduous journey of philosophical text, so that I don't get burnt out, on the unique type of focus and deliberation that reading philosophy demands.

Most of you read for fun no? I do too. But as a bonus. Its part of why Bakker is so disappointing. The amount of times I've heard "Bakker's books are deeply philosophical". Sure, if your conception of philosophy is logical fallacies, and the many "isms" of philosophy you can come to "understand" via a cursory read of Wikipedia. The problem is worsened by the fact that his critics have just as much an understanding (or rather desire to appreciate) philosophy as his fans. Which is actually what convinced me to finally read Bakker. The poor criticism of one of his detractors. Because the ironic thing, is that criticism will try to get to the heart of a thing sometimes, more directly than praise, which seems a greater struggle for people to articulate. The criticism was bad. But hearing somebody use Nihilism wrong so many times spurred me to come to Bakker with a great charity of faith and hope.

fuck it im posting the video
https://youtu.be/gGkaoHvzUSg

>>25159612
Do you like the circus anon?

>>25159629
oh no, the circus is coming

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Picked up some of the Dwarfs books today. They seem alright but I've never seen much discussion on them, what's the consensus around here Do they at least have good lore or do anything interesting with dwarves

I made the first villain of my story gay, but like zesty gay in an emo way.
He will correct the main characters ill-formed questions because he has a degree in linguistics

Either Bakkers prose is REALLY good or I only have shit writers to compare to. I am impressed, so far.

>>25159613
In theory I like a bit of philosophical heft myself but it's hard to find writers who are conceptually, aesthetically, and narratively satisfying. Generally it's a pick two situation. I'd like to weave a philosophical conceit deeply into the plot of a book of my own someday but I'm not there yet. Until then it's just slightly elevated dialogue and questionable platitudes.

I'm 100 or so pages into Way of Kings and there's no overarching villain/conflict to be seen. It makes the world, for all its details, seem hollow. For reference, LotR gives you a sense of Sauron's power even in the first two chapters. I'm gonna finish WoK but it feels less like a fantasy epic and more like some autist's D&D setting.
Also brando nearly got me in trouble at work because when I was explaining Kaladin's slavery and Szeth's magic ("Lashing") my black coworker commented on how dark the book sounded

>>25159684
>I'm 100 pages or so into a 10 book epic fantasy and the author hasn't told me what the final ending conflict will be about yet
lol
>obligatory comparison to Tolkien
lol

>>25159684
The main conflict is between Sanderson and his ultimate nemesis - his inability to write - and it unfolds in spectacular way, with the antagonist coming out on top in long pay-offs. It’s a postmodern masterpiece.

>>25159692
There's not even a hint of evil greater than regional conflicts. Good vs evil is a staple of the high fantasy genre, which Tolkien codified. Yes, it is a shortcoming on the author's part if he fails to provide sufficient reason to continue.
Also
>defending Sando in the Bakker general
Shiggydiggy

>>25159552
Yes.

>>25159707
>Bakkerfag shitposting
sasuga

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>>25159538
No. It's basically a trilogy only held in high regard because of obsessions with Chinese authors during the time. Some also really wanted to fuck Kuang.

>>25159640
>Markus Heitz
I just don't think enough people read the Dwarves.

>>25159726
>schizo sees bakkerfag everywhere

>>25158903
I think HE is still banned.

>>25159746
>bring up Bakker yourself
Kill yourself before somebody in this thread does it.

>>25159747
And who is HE?

>>25159750
Three of the first ten posts in this thread are about him and there's literally a splinter general without him. Referencing him in this context is not "bringing him up," you queer.

>>25159760
>keep bringing it up every chance you get
>act upset and vindicated when other people bring it up
an hero

>West coast hours
>Thread gets derailed
It's the same every single day. Just ignore the schizoid.

>>25159767
Yeah. Thankfully, it's pretty easy to spot him.

>>25159764
>>25159750
>>25159726
There's another general without Scott, sweetie.
Why don't you go shit-post there?

>>25159767
>>25159769
>>25159771
>cry and piss and samefag yourself so hard because you brought up your favorite author 15 minutes ago and got upset that someone else observed your post content
Kill yourself, faggot.

>>25159769
I know, but other people might not. At least non-resident posters. A shame. That mentally ill 45 year old bald schizo is bent on destroying the general. And all because he couldn't figure out how to use the 4chan native filter. Imagine that!
Thankfully, I do and has such have already found a way to filter his IP.

>>25159771
He's probably troubled because the general flopped.

Many such cases.

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Any fantasy books for this feeling?

>>25159742
>Nose piercing
So she is an American writer after all?

>>25159764
>>/lgbt/
Take your blown-out asshole over there. The Sanderson/Bakker divide is well known in /sffg/, and making reference to it in answer to your substance-free "lol" post does not mean I'm bakkerfag

>>25159790
Yes, it signifies her belonging to her White Boyfriend

What did people even read before Bakker? What did they think about all day?

>>25159640
I don't know man. I feel like Tolkien's popularity basically turned Elves and Dwarfs into cliches. A shame really, there's nothing wrong with them and I wish more competent writers would engage with them.

I got Dhalgren and M John Harrison's Light today for £5 how'd I do? Never read Delany before but I heard Dhalgren is complex and I wanted to read Harrison's Viriconium this year but I've only checked out The Centauri Device

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This was really good. Same for the few of the subsequent books were just as good. It's about a guy who gets on a ship and turns some shitty situations around through sheer force of personality and cleverness, it's surprisingly wholesome.

Is there anything else like this, where whole chapters about how to make a good cup of coffee feel oddly appropriate? Not really sure what genre this would even be.

>>25159640
Read the books and let us know how you like them.

>>25159827
Is the story told in first- or third-person?

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Was this ever updated?

>>25159839
This was a good chart back in the day, or if you're new to the genre. But I fear that it's a little bit too simplistic to my taste. Many of those books belong to multiple genres.

>>25159839
I doubt anyone would ever be able to edit that.

It's a mess.

>>25159839
the sci-fi section atleast is terribly out of date
>no Blindsight
>no Revelation Space
>ringworld is on there for some reason

and fantasy would have to include at the very least:
>Piranesi
>The Broken World

and House of Leaves goes close to where Perdido Street Station is

>>25159470
He *was* young when the last book was submitted in 2015. It's been 11 years Anon. He's in his 50s now. His one kid he stepped back to spend more time with is probably in college or near enough. I don't think he is coming back.

It's weird to me how Watts seems so popular when Bakker does everything he does so much better.

But the last books didn't sell that well (although they still got an audio treatment), at least ASFAIK and didn't even get an editor (sort of shows). I am not sure if he wants to deal with that again.

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>>25159864
actually nevermind ringworld
they put actual star wars books on the chart

>>25159873
You can't pearl clutch over star wars being on there and then post a persona 5 reaction image lol

My previous favorite Bakkerism is from the first time we see the full might of the Gnosis as Akka goes full Seswatha on the Scarlet Spires. At one point he writes:

>"the man's wards could no more protect him than a thin linen shift could stop an ardent rapist."

But this reread I noticed that he describes the wrestling match with the Thing Called Sarcellus in terms of Kellhus slipping into a probability trance where its center of gravity is "described by the point traced by his arcing phallus."

Classic Bakker.

>>25159870
>I am not aure if he wants to deal with that again.
Having seen sixty some rejections for my book I'd kill to be in a position to turn down further publishing prospects.

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>50 is somehow old for a writer now

>>25159875
there's just no way you can seriously put star wars on a chart of classic fantasy & sci-fi novels
sure it's probably not a bad read if you're a star wars fan, but it's not something you'd read unless you have a shelf of funko-pops

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>>25159880
My man Xander just died and he was barely over 50.

Life expectancy is headed down anyhow. Only billionaires who can IVF kids to drain their blood will live forever.

>>25159885
neither is sanderson.
or bakker.

>bakker
never heard of him
>sanderson
haven't read him, but it seems more original than retroactively using the setting of a movie to write a bunch of novels

>>25159890
sorry, didn't mean to not feed you your (You)
here you go anon

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>>25159870
I'm not claiming to necessarily disagree with anything you're saying, but these are direct quotes from the news article that Bryan (his brother) wrote not so long ago:

>For those interested in the now, some have commented on the fact that Scott has been quiet online in recent years. Suffice it to say he has gone through a lot. His singular focus right now is raising his daughter and building his family's future.
>As for the future of the series, I've heard him say two things, over the years, about how the Second Apocalypse should end:
>One was that there would be a third trilogy outlining the blow by blow of 'you know who's' rise. I know outlines exist for such a story, but just outlines.
>The other is that the story is finished. That 'The Unholy Consult', is a fitting way to end a sprawling epic about the death of meaning.
>For my part, I can't help but to think that this massive story was where Scott's creative life began and, it would not surprise me if, after his real life trials are complete, he doesn't return to it, before the end.
>Like a favourite old coat - warm and comfortable - and smelling of sulfur (:
>Sometimes, life does come full circle.

There's no way anyone can read this and not be optimistic.

Also, as the other anon said, 50 years old is not old lol.

>>25159546
Are these all /sffg/ authors? I would like to make a sheet of what posters here wrote

>>25159827
What the fuck do you mean, really good? It's scifi Legends and Lattes. It's a bunch of cozy wank. Nothing bad ever happens onscreen, where half the conversations featured are ripped from the pages of an Econ 101 textbook, and where it's just blatant trade unionism propaganda. There's no plot whatsoever, and the prose makes the frankly unforgivable sin of referring to "how to make a good coffee" as "the mysteries of the bean and water".

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>>25159904
He seems to have cultivated a cult status without being active anyhow. Lots of booktubers, obviously he is big here, his Reddit is very active in comparison to comparable authors (who often don't even have dedicated fan spaces).

Any flashback would have to explain the ending though. The ending is full of cliffhangers and new clues right up to the end. It is in no way a finished story.

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If Bakker is so great, why isn't he selling books for $10k

>>25159935
I have never even heard of this and I post here a lot. Are the e-books worth it?

Question: if you write roman-based fantasy and don't add homoerotic subtext are you just a poser?

>>25159942
Just went on good reads and it's filled with females trashing the book.

What does this mean anons?

>>25159612
So it's comfy? Nice.

So is Red Rising good or not?

>>25159942
Red Rising is fun. The first book is the weakest, by far. Second is one of the best.

>>25159942
>>25159953

i think red rising is fantastic.
the first book is brought down a bit by the hunger games / battle royal trope, but the books after that are all excellent.
its one of my favourite series now.

>>25159996
It's the only thing filling the Bakker shaped hole in my life.

>>25159998
Is is still ongoing? Also, is it fantasy, sci-fi or both?

>>25159996
One of my favorite series from the last few years but in my opinion it really shines in its "sequel" series (book 4-6, 7 whenever it comes out). Brown shows a significant improvement in his writing abilities between the 3rd and 4th books, and it feels noticeably less YA like the first three come off as.

>>25159996
I'm terms of enjoyment I would put it up there with my favorites, A Song of Ice and Fire, Revelation Space, Second Apocalypse, the Black Company (early books), Dune, Hyperion.

It's not super original or thought provoking, but I think I enjoy reading it more than anything except for Second Apocalypse. I did really like ASOIAF too, but all the loose ends and the show being shit kind of ruined it for me.

>>25160002
Soft sci-fi, like Warhammer 40k only with genetically engineered 8 foot tall super human ancient Greeks and Romans (and Vikings) battling for control of the solar system.

>>25159942
https://warosu.org/lit/?task=search&ghost=false&search_text=%22red+rising%22
lurk more, newfag

>>25160002
technically its sci-fi like dune
theres space ship battles, railguns, energy shields etc
but they fight a lot in melee too because the best armors stop most ranged weapons

>>25159839
I landed on Vorkosian Saga, how is that?

Rarely see anyone talking about the Chronicles of amber anymore.

Rarely see anyone talking about Bakker anymore.

>>25159887
oh man you are missing one specific piece of the puzzle. It's the vax

>General suddenly becomes good after the anti-bakker-schizos desert and create their own general.

Like poetry.

>>25156768
>The Golden Oecumene trilogy - John C. Wright

Thanks for the rec, this is great. I knew Wright liked the Dying Earth subgenre, but I didn't know he also experimented with it like this.

Thus far this is like Vance crossed with a space opera. Hope it sticks the landing.

>>25160052
I've read those books a long time ago. They would be considered Dinosaurs now.

>>25159996
Yes. Golden Son > Light Bringer > Dark Age > Iron Gold > Morning Star > Red Rising.

Speaking of Dinosaurs; any books before Tolkien that are worth reading?

>>25160123
Dunsany, Clark Ashton Smith, Robert E. Howard. Arthur Machen is more horror but The White People is very dreamlike and folkloric.
Recs:
Conan, Kull (Howard)
Averoigne (Ashton Smith)
King of Elfland's Daughter, Sword of Welleran and others (Dunsany)
William Hope Hodgson sounds good but I have yet to read him.

>>25160123
Lord Dunsany is both very good and also heavily inspired Tolkien, so he's essentially the great-grandfather of modern fantasy.

Everything Olaf Stapledon has written is incredible and it's always shocking to see when his stuff was published. He reads like a golden age scifi author.

>>25160133
Thanks friend!

>>25160118
Where to start with Wright? I've read his blog a bit but haven't tried his books yet.

>>25160138
>>25160133
Now that Dunsany is going through his most obscure phase of the last 100 years it’s time to resurrect him on /lit/. I will be remaking the Dunsany general. Feel free to participate.

>>25153245

>>25160139
Anytime anon. Old fantasy has a distinctly mythic feel that only Tolkien was really able to replicate. I should also mention George Macdonald and William Morris, both of whom influenced Tolkien and Lewis, but I haven't read them yet.

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>>25160118
yw
if you've read The Night Land, his homage/tribute is pretty good (pic)

>>25160140
The Golden Age and the sequels, easily

>>25160165
Much obliged, anon.

>>25160140
I read that big Dying Earth collaborative book and Wright's story was one of the better ones. I then read Awake in the Night Land which was also great

But whether those are good starts is debatable, as both require knowledge of the things he's inspired by.

Thus far The Golden Age seems like a good a start as any.

>>25159904
Where can I read this news article? First time hearing about it.

>>25160123
The Once and Future King was 1 year after the Hobbit. Does that count?

Its just too odd. I agree with her about basically everything (as surface level judgements as they are) else shes said about history, but the science thing, maybe its because science is too modern to our time, and I have heaps of books, and references critiquing not just science as an intellectual endeavor, but science as exactly she meant to express it, as a social function, a tool.

I need to read Foucault thoroughly asap. And maybe Derrida, or is it Heidegger?Unfortunately its hard to find criticism of enlightenment glorified concepts like science anywhere but among the 20th century french. It either gets drowned out elsewhere, or not properly developed.

I have nothing against science. I am against the naive ideal of science. Not even from the juvenile generic "b-b-but le science...created le bomb" (infact thats a perfect example of how science becomes things that are not spurred by science)

also her entire science spiel was as much propaganda as the artistic imitation of ancient rome and greek she claims that florence indulged in

https://youtu.be/BBgMt21sbMg

is that the point?

i am 100 pages into the darkness that comes before

quite good, but the philosophical meanderings are actually the worst parts of the book. really as if bakker read two wikipedia articles on philosophy and not worthy of his prose quality

>>25160173
Wright seems respectful enough of his forebears to do their worlds justice, but I really don't like pastiche. My stack is pretty thick rn but I'll be sure to check The Golden Age out.

>>25159942
The worst thing about it is when anons here call you mean names if you try to talk about it. It's pretty enjoyable

>>25159942
It's Mean Girls x The Hunger Games on Mars. There's a lot to like, but it's irritating how the author, publisher, and some fans treat it as this sweeping epic when it's pretty rote scifi slop

>>25160291
Thats only fractionally accurate for the first book. In a series with seven books total.

>>25160295
The Mean Girls tone only gets more entrenched as it goes on, but yes, the Hunger Games portion is lessened.

Is there any other world like the bakker-verse were it goes from "the deep metaphysics of magick" to "pew pew explosions and carnage" preferable in a dark fantasy world?

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Any good books about a kingdom being invaded and a band of heroes saving it? I need inspiration for my D&D games and I'm really running out of material.

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Please recommend me some good scifi horror. But be aware that I'll be blocking, doxxing and quartering anyone who recommends Blindsight.

Any books with incest?

>>25160361
I'm writing it but it's kinda of a spiritual and metaphysical incest.

>>25160367
Make it lesbian incest and ill be there day one anon

>>25160277
People who only consume the most popular entries within their respective genres are some of the most by-definition average-to-stupid examples of the populace.

The BotnS really isn't a conventional book. How did Wolfe get it published? Reputation alone? Which stories made Wolfe famous and respected?

>>25160392
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_Doctor_Island

Won a nebula award back when you could win them as a white guy.

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>>25160357
I gotchu:

Blood Music, Greg Bear
Hull Zero Three, Greg Bear
The Legacy of Heorot, Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle
Stinger, Robert Mccammon
The Night's Dawn trilogy, Peter F Hamilton
Ship of Fools, Richard Paul Russo
Starfish, Peter Watts

>>25160401
Interesting. Thanks.

>>25160001
Thanks for telling me to never read it.

>>25160210
Screenshot anon already exposed all these facts.

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>>25160415
Thank you very much, that's a lot more than I expected.

>>25160415
Ship of Fools was boring unremarkable shit.

A relevant story would be the shorter one Nightingale by Reynolds. He's popular enough so that guy might actually give it a read.

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Yumi and the Nightmare Painter was really good, one of Sanderson’s best. Now all I have left is Mistborn Era 2, and I will be caught up. I almost want to reread Wind and Truth just to appreciate all the other characters and magic systems that subtly appear which I wasn’t aware of the first time

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>>25159475
It was meant to be humorous, but Sanderson is anything but. I am now reminded of him mentioning how butthurt he'd get when Robert Jordan's editor (who was his wife) who would say things to him like, "Is this supposed to be funny? Take it out."

>>25160520
Not that I don't believe you but do you have a link to where he said that? I'd love to read and laugh at it myself.

>>25160450
Always strange for people to label slow burn horror and dread as "boring", but to follow it up with
>Nightingale by Reynolds
really takes the cake.

Alistair Reynolds is the Dan Brown of scifi. It's fine if he's your speed, but you are not allowed to comment on the quality of any other books.

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>>25160550
I couldn't tell you anything about Ship of Fools because IT LEFT NO PERMANENT SCENE UPON MY MEMORY.
And you act like I said Reynolds' entire bibliography was great because of one sp00ky short story?
Shoot yourself, faggot.
I only recommended Reynolds because normalfags won't read anything nonpopular to begin with, you shitstirring queer.

>>25160536
It was a brief moment in one of those long form videos where he's talking to some schmuck while signing autographs so it'd take me forever to find it. Maybe some other autist here can sniff it out.

>>25160564
>normalfag
I'm the guy who asked and I'll take any recommendation even if it's a webnovel. Idc if an author is big or small.

>>25160564
Settle down, Beavis.

>>25160578
I'll look through my shelf later and see if I can find anything related. I'm drinking right now and can't be fucked and I honestly don't seek out 'horror' specifically but I suppose the element does rear its head throughout my sheer quantity of my past read items.
>>25160582
>empty response
sasuga

>>25160590
Your entire argument is that you have a bad memory. Why can I even say to that? I'm sorry, take more supplements, I guess.

>>25160593
>made up shit
Cool.

Bakker.

Beating Bakkerfag until he can't breathe!

>>25160536
>>25160567
this isn't the exact clip but it shares some of the same thoughts it starts at 2:20 in case the timestamp doesn't work
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayO21BL9Ah4&t=140s

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You would suffer her crazy delusions, would't you anon?

>>25159475
I found this funny.

>>25160618
>Moshe telling him to stop trying to be Gene Wolfe for a sentence
What book could he have possibly been working on because not a single one of his works has anything remotely close to Wolfe's use of language in his works?

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>>25160649

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>>25160536
https://wob.coppermind.net/ search and bring us back a laugh

>>25160644
Shallan reminded me too much of my ex; an attention seeking autistic bipo repressed serial cheater, who like Shallan despite the way she lives, acts, and treats others she still expects others to support her because "good intentions" or something

>>25160676
>Shallan reminded me too much of my ex
yeah because she's not real

>>25160676
Tolerable in Words of Radiance at least.

>>25160686
Brutal.

>>25160644
I love Sansa

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>>25160686
oh no no no
>>25160697
LOL

Its been hard for me to finish Too Like Lightning for some reason despite only 20 or so pages left. The doubts just keep on mounting. Can I keep believing? How many tolerances will I have to fork up? I want to believe, but I don't want to waste my time.

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Oh wait, it was less than 2 pages

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Ruh Roh. I shouldn't have read the afterword.

>>25159195
Truth Shines

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I really shouldn't have read the afterword. How am I not supposed to see this as biasing? I don't care about utopia or dystopia, they are made up words used to label what one already seeks. They dont mean anythin, they shouldn't mean anything.

>>25160739
>replying to yourself 13 hours later
LOL
I would gouge your eyes out if I met you.

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This nigga is dicksucked so hard by the narrative

>>25160746
No offense, but I don't think you have the balls to even make eye contact.

>>25160618
>Wolfe is poet
Wolfechads...

>>25160763
Offense intended. I would happily watch the life bleed out of your eyes.

>>25154449
>If this were an actual work of history, it'd be a rather bad one. As a a puzzle novel it does much better, but that isn't what it purports to be.
Yeah that was clear from a point on. It just becomes clearer the closer towards the end of the book you get. The question is, if its blatantly not a work of history, then wtf is it.

The beginning of the book, with a list of all the Hives that validated the creation of the book implies that nothing actually changed, all the Hives remain, and so do their powers.

What is this book for? It cant be propaganda, as who would listen to Propaganda from Mycroft?

>>25160770
The fucked up thing is that I also meant offense, I was lying before.

>>25160783
babbys first attempt at a comeback

>>25160784
I know you don't know what "comeback" means but I'm worried you're also lost about "babby".

I suggest running things by ChatGPT first. It'll help you sound more tough and intimidating, and we'll all pretend to be VERY impressed by your next reply.

As for Bakker? Heh, well, let's just say: he's king.

>>25160792
>dismissive vaguepost
You came to 4chan during 2016 and will always be an obnoxious newfag bitch, Bakkerfag.

Can you fucks not ruin this thread too jesus christ

>>25160799
Bakkerfag came here in 2016 with the election crowd? Is that why he acts so superior?

>>25160806
Look up his most favorite phrases like "Bakker is King" in the warosu and /v/ (arch.b4k.dev) archives. You will see a 10 year pattern of the same exact specific keywords and images together.

>>25160816
He has other tells too.

Gimme uhhhhhh small-scale fantasy, like Knight of The Seven Kingdoms

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>absent from our permissions page
The Masons are present
The Cousins are Present
The Europeans are Present
The Gordians are Present
The Anonymous is Present
The only ones missing are the Utopians and Humanists
>>25160758
If I take it that Apollo represents the Utopians. Then its the Humanists who are framed as the antagonist who could "stop us". Which is obviously Mycorft and J.E.D.D Masons side.

The question is...why would somebody who wants the suffering of billions to end. Need to be stopped? Why would that implication even be entertained?

What makes a fantasy world, comfy

>>25160886
Incest.

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>Sniper chapter
>This many restrictions ordered by like 5 Hives
Oh this just proves even further than the Humanists become the enemy somehow
I don't like it because I have a worrisome feeling the tepid exploration of basic utilitarianism which the Saneer bash' are the arm for the execution of. Will be done poorly. But I want to believe you know

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After it being brought up a few threads back, I found out z-lib has all of Guin Saga translated. It's some shitty machine translation, but anyway it's translated. I'm actually considering trying to read some of this, please talk me out of it.

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>>25160886
The place where the cast goes to for respite after everything goes to hell.

>>25160886
The right adjective used at the right time is responsible for like 90% of coziness

tell me a wall is made up of thick stones fitted close together, that a fire casts a warm, golden glow on the faces of the companions as they guzzle down cool, crisp cider underneath a carpet of twinkling stars

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>>25160886
The food and drinks.

>>25159640
I read it. It was alright. Had a lot of action.

>>25160644
Ce'Nedra my queen

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/sffg/'s thoughts on punctuation?

>>25160902
Jesus Christ, anon. You're not committing for life. Just try it.

>>25161162
>wants to write cursive
>has ass handwriting

>>25160118
This writer is a literal neonazi so you should enjoy his books.

>>25160415
So, nothing?

Is it okay to not finish reading a book because it’s too gay?

>>25161218
It's not OK to be scared of gays, son.

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>>25161218
ALWAYS FINISH YOUR BOOKS

>>25161218
yes. sodomy is a sin.

>>25159535
I got up to the part after the parade went wrong and they're all stewing in house arrest, but I haven't come back to it in a while. There wasn't anything that made me drop it, but there wasn't enough to keep me hooked either.
The prose was fine. No complaints there.
There was a fair bit going on with the magic, some of which I found interesting (particularly mixmaking, and the details of gravecalling), but most of which seemed irrelevant to the story (all the elements except death). Highly systematic elemental magic isn't particularly to my taste either. I found the magic systems to be well introduced and explained in the story.
Most of the cast's primary motivation seemed to be professional advancement, which was not what I was expecting from a book about necromancers. The necromancers have cordial relations with their colleagues from other guilds and go on business trips, that involve paperwork, standing in lines to get through security and dealing with delays, detours and layovers. It makes them seem like boring white collar middle class professionals **like me**. They don't even have that banality of evil contrast like you get with the torturer's guild in BotNS, because the gravecallers aren't really evil, some of them just have a taste for the macabre.
The main character's arc seems to involve his unresolved anger issues, probably due to his childhood upbringing. That could be the start of his descent into villainy (which could be an interesting story), but it doesn't seem like enough, given how supportive his friend and his master are.
The evil dead lady seems to be a big deal, but I'm not entirely sure why, and she seems like the sort of problem that ought to be handed up to the guild leadership rather than dealt with by the main characters.

>>25159535
>>25161246
Forgot to add, my favourite character is the feathered prince, because he's fun and likable at first, and then you start questioning how reliable he really is.

>>25160816
You sound resentful.

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I just finished Titanium Noir by Nick Harkaway. It was pretty good, delivered everything I expected. Ending was somewhat predictable, but that doesn't take away from the book.

Essay on Golden Age's writing merits and depth right now. Spit it out.

>>25161202
No way a book with the ghost of Al Capone as an interplanetary threat is bad Anon.

>>25161278
You sound like Bakkerfag.

Little wonder, as you are Bakkerfag.

>>25160771
This has been an especially troublesome and busy time for me, so I haven't be able to reply much at all. It will be for probably a week yet.

Yes, it is propaganda by Mycroft, for the express purpose of why everyone should side with JEDD MASON rather than Sniper in the Hive War.

>>25161200
lel wat
I know Wright became a super Catholic later in life, but was there some other different development I missed?

anyway all of this was after The Golden Age was written iirc

>>25160385
Sure, maybe, but there isn't really any way to know what all somebody has read on an anonymous board. The RR enthusiasts could be very widely read sages of sci-fi, mouthbreathing idiots, or both.

Man Kellhus is such a boring character. I don’t think it’s just his unlikable traits that make me dislike him. Xerius and Conphas are damn deranged, but they’re way more entertaining to read.
Even though the second book has more battles I actually prefer the first. The battle at the river is more engaging than most of the fights in the second book.
Cnaiur was also a more interesting character back then instead of just muh prize, muh Serwe

Bakkers setting is less original than I thought it to be initially. It’s really a fantasy retelling of the first Crusade (or so it seems)

Doesn’t affect my rating for the book, but still

>>25161635
I also thought this during my first read. After reading the books again, I began to appreciate the hidden subtleties that were previously seemingly irrelevant. You should pay close attention to when Kellus makes “mistakes” or displays doubts and passions. This becomes increasingly important.
>>25161684
There’s a lot to see still. Especially related to the metaphysics and history of the World. The Aspect Emperor series will show those.

>>25160799
I've been on 4chan since 2008. Bakker only came to my attention in these threads in like 2018 or 2019. I came to quickly realized that Bakker truly is the GOAT.

I don't normally Bakkerpost though, but your endless seething sometimes makes me want to. I remain a committed Bakkerite.

>>25159612
Yup. I dropped it halfway trough book four aswell. Series is fucking ass.

>>25161190
I don't know.... I'm autistic

>>25159657
It's levels above other fantasy writers but it also does sometimes devolve into being super purple.

>>25161614
There has been zero evidence to support the "RR enthusiasts" being anything other than "mouthbreathing idiots".
>>25161738
You spam 2016+ buzzwords and rhetoric, and will always be a disingenuous bad faith 2016 newfag who disrupts everything he touches.

>>25161218
I'll drop a book even if I don't like the names of characters. Have no mercy, there are way too many books out there to waste time reading shit you don't like.

>>25161840
Almost did that to Bakker

> Anasûrimbor Kellhus

Yeah no

>>25161819
It’s so easy to bait you it’s unreal.

>>25161218
I almost did this with "The Shards" like I really did not go into it expecting half of it to be fucking gay sex.

>>25161635
Cnaiur is at his absolute peak as character in Warrior Prophet. You are illiterate.

I'm moving to /hfg/ fuck you autismos

>>25161903
>Have conversation.
>Be called autistic.
Sorry we’re not just spamming “STEELERS RULE” or whatever you don’t consider “autismo.”

>>25161894
You will always be a 2016 newfag who cannot communicate through repetitive spam of 2016 buzzwords. What else you got after bait and seethe? You're new to 4chan LOL

Starship Troopers is the most moving and thought provoking book I've ever read.

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>>25161218
Yes and you should be ashamed of yourself for being homophobic. That said, a lot of depictions of gay characters in media are clumsy as hell. So I ask /sffg/, what are some good depictions in queerness in genre fiction?

>>25161894
I don’t think he realizes we’re multiple people.

>>25161900
I’m at chapter 23, but I doubt the last two chapters will change my mind. His obsession with Serwë, how she becomes his measure or proof and the way Kellhus exploits that just feels unconvincing to me

>>25161980
The Asoiaf stuff is good. Loras and Renly have an tragic love story that serves the overall plot, and Cersei's bi tendencies are woven into her narcissism, decadence, and corruption.

>>25160965
Good reply. Thank you.

>>25161986
And you all baited so easily because your stupid.

Bakker.

>>25161227
I had to DNF a couple of books I bought by mistake
It wus the lovely bones and the choronoliths. Both had me banging my head against the wall bcuz they were so boring, espcially the lovely bones
I really dont like soft sci-fi that focuses on modern human relationships unless it is urban fantasy

>>25159951
You’re a poser if you’re writing any pre-19th century setting without homoerotic subtext. Dramatic homosociality and borderline (and not so borderline) gay shit is the norm whenever women are excluded from public and social life.

>>25161218
I legitimately just did this. You can have a little bit, and it's fine. But sometimes it feels like they're trying too hard and it takes me out of the story. Like there are more gay people in the story than you would see in real life.

The Bakkerfag thinks obscure = good and popular = bad. A very midwit level opinion.

>>25162048
Once you’ve recognized the masses are blithering idiots this becomes the only sensible approach.

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>>25162067

>>25162010
>your
>stupid
Some jokes write themselves.

>>25161990
>how she becomes his measure or proof and the way Kellhus exploits that just feels unconvincing to me
My guess is that you (and I say this unironically and without any prejudice) speed read the book.

>>25162048
It's true though.

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>>25161200
he also looks like a fucking fool in all his pictures in a way that can't be accidental. maybe he's running an elaborate bit.

however, i don't care about what authors are or aren't. if they write words i like reading then i shall read them

>>25162208
stop samefagging

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>“The best and happiest of my hours you know nothing about. I have seen days like gold. Seawrack sings in my ears still, as she used to sing to me alone in the evenings on our sloop.”

>>25162048
it's a good rule of thumb when you're talking about entertainment media, because the lowest common denominator is almost by definition what will be the most popular

where this advice falls flat is when your population is more specific which heavily skews what is "popular" or "obscure". that's one reason why every conversation that touches this topic here is a fucking nightmare

>>25162048
bakker is the sanderson of /sffg/ doe. look at the poll results

>>25162304
>Remember that time I samefagged a poll?
How could we forget when you take every opportunity to remind us?

through with 1/5th of the darkness that comes before.

almost seems like kellhus is a side character until now

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>"Eh, I will create a new poll to disprove that Bakker is no a popular author in the General and prove that only 1 guy posts about him"
>/sffg/ poll goes live
>"Bakker is winning because 1 guy is using a VPN"
>Gets debunked
>"No you see, It's actually just one guy rebooting his router dozens of times"
>Gets debunked again
>"Scew this I will make my own general without Bakker!"
> Makes his general without Bakker and it fails miserably
>"Screw this, I won't allow any Bakker discussions so I will just shit up the real General"
>Tries to derail /sffg/ but it's already too late since we had a great thread

Uh oh it's been 15 minutes since BakkerGPT samefagged, better post again.

>>25162353
>Eh, I will create a new poll to disprove that Bakker is no a popular author
That was never my goal nigguh. I fully expected Bakker to win, just not by 30%+ of the vote when I went through the effort of suggesting 100s of series.

I've assembled a list of sffg authors that I am considering reading in no particular order. Are there any obvious ones I missed?
1. Adrian Tchaikovsky
2. C. S. Lewis
3. Mark Lawrence
4. Becky Chambers
5. Ray Bradbury
6. Ann Leckie
7. Joe Abercrombie
8. Cixin Liu
9. Robin Hobb
10. Arthur C. Clarke
11. Naomi Novik
12. Neil Gaiman
13. James S. A. Corey
14. Steven Erikson
15. J. R. R. Tolkien
16. Lois McMaster Bujold
17. Ted Chiang
18. George R. R. Martin
19. Octavia E. Butler
20. Iain M. Banks
21. China Miéville
22. Samantha Shannon
23. Ursula K. Le Guin
24. Patrick Rothfuss
25. Peter F. Hamilton
26. Isaac Asimov
27. Susanna Clarke
28. Tamsyn Muir
29. H. G. Wells
30. Brandon Sanderson
31. Orson Scott Card
32. Roger Zelazny
33. Ken Liu
34. N. K. Jemisin
35. Frank Herbert
36. Alastair Reynolds
37. Fonda Lee
38. Vernor Vinge
39. Gene Wolfe
40. David Brin
41. Marion Zimmer Bradley
42. Robert A. Heinlein
43. Terry Pratchett
44. Anne McCaffrey
45. R. F. Kuang
46. Philip K. Dick
47. John Scalzi
48. Terry Goodkind
49. Pierce Brown
50. C. J. Cherryh

^

This is bait btw.

>>25161584
>why everyone should side with JEDD MASON rather than Sniper in the Hive War.
I already accidentally spoiled myself on this while doing some research on the next books. But this is exactly why I like spoilers sometimes, it keeps me going, because now I want to know how this person possibly became the lead of this opposing conflict.

The only sad thing, is that I was also spoiled of who won. Which has some finality implications that are a bit more boring.

>>25162370
its not a good idea to read them in this haphazard order, you ought to read the "classics" first to let your taste develop and find out what you like and then branch out into niche.

>>25162252
>>25161587
You will enjoy his neo-Nazi propaganda so much.

>>25162370
Fixed list.
>5. Ray Bradbury
>9. Robin Hobb
>10. Arthur C. Clarke
>15. J. R. R. Tolkien
>17. Ted Chiang
>18. George R. R. Martin
>19. Octavia E. Butler
>20. Iain M. Banks
>21. China Miéville
>23. Ursula K. Le Guin
>26. Isaac Asimov
>29. H. G. Wells
>32. Roger Zelazny
>38. Vernor Vinge
>39. Gene Wolfe
>43. Terry Pratchett
>46. Philip K. Dick
>50. C. J. Cherryh

>>25162370
Dan Simmons would say you shouldn't out a single word on paper unless you've read everything work of these gentlemen and then some (you're missing a few.)

>>25162429
oh no some dead jew said some bullshit

>>25162194
Well, maybe I’m just missing something and can’t connect the dots. Most of the time he’s just praising how beautiful she is and how much she resembles his wife. They barely interact at all in fact.
Then Kellhus goes on something something about how seducing Serwë would remind Cnaiür of his younger self being manipulated by Moënghus. That explains the violence but not the obsession.
I don’t get how a random slave woman he barely interacts with (aside from the raping and beating parts) can serve as proof of literally anything.

>>25162412
Is there a specific reaction you're looking for here? it may be easier if you just spell out what you want me to say so you can feel satisfied

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>H. Beam Piper had financial problems. He had just gone through a painful and costly divorce and his agent was not replying to his letters and calls –due to having died– so Piper assumed his writing career was over. Another explanation is that Piper wanted to prevent his ex-wife from collecting his life insurance payment, so he took his own life to make sure that the insurance company would not pay. Most likely, the reason for his death was a combination of these factors.

>>25162446
I think I got enough reaction from you by now. Thanks!

>>25162463
Based. Sometimes the winning move is not to play.

>>25162463
It's a shame. I love some of his novels and short fiction.

>>25162377
Either way. I don't have anything written out for the following books except my overall thoughts on them that I posted to Goodreads, so I'd be commenting a lot less anyway even in normal circumstances.

>>25162464
you're very welcome

>>25162370
You missed Egan.

And several of those aren't worth reading. Like Scalzi.

>>25162463
>>25162468
According to Clute & Nicholls' Encyclopaedia of Science Fiction, he also was too much of a Libertarian to ask for help for his situation so he preferred to eat his gun.

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>>25162435
I'm not even sure if this gets revealed latter on or if you just missed it, or (most likely) miss-interpreted it. Bakker does like to play with words sometimes. So please read the spoiler at your own peril. This is at best revealed by the end of the Thousand Fold Thought.

Moënghus got fucked in the ass by Cnaiür. This was Cnaiür greatest humiliation. And the cause for the 30 year torment under the Tribes.
Kellhus is Moënghus-light to him, which is why Serwe is so important to him. She is the ultimate proof of his masculinity

If you ignored the spoiler, then it will make more sense when you read it.

Severin would have been a lot more likeable if he never had sex.

Was Severian so autistic that he really thought Dorcas was jealous because she was in love with Jolenta and not Severian himself?

>>25162463
>characters you're slowing becoming

>250 pages into Dhalgren

Tfw no Lanya gf

>>25162533
you could better identify with him, huh

>>25162560
yes
also him cheating on Dorcas made me mad

>>25162533
Severian never raped that girl, btw.

>>25162527
Holy shit, this series seems dark as fuck. I might actually give it a try.

You guys were not joking about donaldson. That's a lot of raping

>>25162581
It’s not about the rape. It’s about what it means.

are the three prince of nothing books a self-encompassing story, or do i need to continue reading to learn what happens to all the characters?

>>25162592
The work as a stand alone trilogy the same way that Dune and Messiah do. You can read them without reading the rest and will still be satisfied. If you enjoy the series you will continue anyway so it doesn't really matter.

What do you guys think of The Lions of Al-Rassan?

>>25162624
Good book. It's an unusual take on historical fiction by changing the names of things but very little else. It's Moorish Spain, El Cid, and the Reconquista with all that entails.

I liked it a lot. A lot of emotion and heart, good action and plenty of melancholy without feeling grimdark

>>25162707
Is it better than Tigana or A Song for Arbonne?

>>25162707
Thanks, sounds interesting

>>25162527
I always worry and fear that I missed something and that Characters like Cnauir are actually deeper than I thought. Because bakker fans will constantly do this self aggrandizing thing where any criticism of the writing is framed as "you not understanding it". So its always nice to see that when they actually reveal and explain that thing you were oh too stupid to understand...that its exactly what you understood from the get go and changes nothing about the fundamental truth of your criticism.

Its making me think a lot more differently about readers and critical thinking. The way how a simple different twist of words, can make somebody think something so drastically wrong about what somebody said.

The only difference between this description and mine, is that I dont think it says anything at all about masculinity, more about traditional or even caveman tier norms and values. And a society needs to be civilizationally beyond caveman/steppe tier values, for gender to actually manifest beyond sex, and social roles to be formed. None of which is meaningfully present in Cnauirs tribes, or any of Cnaiurs engagement with other cultures, it has very little actually to do with masculinity or femininity, because Cnaiur comes from a tradition where masculinity and feminity is surface level and too simple. As simple as "Men are stronger than women, and Men fuck women".

I don't understand where people get all these ideas that Cnaiur is a statement on masculinity, unless that changes in the Aspect Emperor sequels. Which I doubt because the sloppy way Bakker leaves plot threads, character developments and the general r/atheist way he talks about gender and norms when Kellhus and Esmenet have that conversation, imbues me with zero confidence in the idea that he could remotely tackle those themes meaningfully.

Its just a twist of words. Used to elevate to the abstract, and what allowed the dismissal of my charge against Cnaiur, even though it says nothing about my dismissal. If you use "masculinity" because of how language works (I will not explain to you) you can invoke several orders of implied meaning, even without understanding what is entailed by masculinity. Not even in an "erm the definition of masculinity is X" kind of way, in a more fundamental "how did the concept come to be". Which a surface level understanding of Derrida might help inform you on.

>>25162478
Thats fine. I'm mostly just thinking outloud with my posts anyway, and anybody who finds interest to engage, can engage however they want aslong as its addressing what im saying. I don't expect most people to have everything in their head to perfectly give an indepth response anyway, thats very difficult, especially the more removed from reading the book, one is.

>>25162736
I haven't read either but I hear great things about Tigana. I think if you're torn you should pick the setting that interests you: Moorish Spain, Renaissance Italy, or the Cathar Crusade.

https://youtu.be/quLzAupytbg?t=1h26m34s
Bakker ends up introducing and leaving so many disparate plot threads with haste that I honestly even forgot this bullshit about the skin spy with a soul, because it was so inconsequential, so random, and so meaningless that it literally never ever comes up for even a bit for the rest of the book, not even in the conversation with Moenghus, and obviously not even when Nautzera and the Mandate, and Maithanet meet up with Kellhus at the end, because obviously the character of that stage was Achamian and his final spontaneous rebuke of being cucked by Kellhus (presumably because he finally got to "taste" Esmenet and couldn't stand to be without her, since if the reason he rejects Kellhus is Xinemus pointing out how hes a fake Prophet due to an inability to heal, he should have abandoned Kellhus much sooner, which only makes giving up the Gnosis eventually feel even more contrived, but it doesnt matter since Kellhus gets whatever he wants (Until bakker decides otherwise in thr Aspect Emperor, presumably considering the way people talk about that series showing that Kellhus can actually be flawed) so the only thing that really changes is that when Kellhus goes off to talk to Moenghus, Achamian has sex with Esmenet and she finally gives herself up to him somewhat, until Kellhus returns and comes him one last time in his face)

Anyway does the skin spy with a soul thing ever become relevant? I'd be surprised if even Bakker just does nothing with that.

Also look how you guys made me talk about Bakker again when I was done with him, because of the propaganda I'm seeing about his writing here.

*Yawn*

Didn’t read any of your AI Slop / copy pasta posts btw.

I'm learning here that its less that nobody reads here, and more that few can write and actually articulate any depth or lack thereof

Serverain shpuld have raped Agia then killed her, then raped her headless corpse.

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Sniper has to be more important than Bridger wtf

>>25163029
Severian is not a rapist.

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>>25161263
Thanks for reading, and thanks even more for the feedback!
I’m a big fan of stuff like BPRD and Men in Black, where the protags are cogs in a large government organization. Or at least are backed by the people and aren’t rogues/secret. This all, of course, stems back to Lego Bionicle and Toa team.
Originally I had planned a world where all the magic was biological, and then added elements later. I decided that biological magic should have strict rules and elemental magic could be more whimsical and eccentric.
If you keep reading, you’re close to when things start to get more and more fast paced because of something that gets fucked up. The evil dead lady is a very big deal but I don’t want to say much cause of le spoilers.

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Eurekas powers are so retarded btw. Just casually destroys a sense of grounding in the story that she can just casually do this sort of thing with no consequence or real roadblock.

>>25163042
Really Agia consented to it back when she let him touch her hip. Really she owed it to him. And you know she still wanted it.

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The series just gets weirder in the sequel. I hope its not a style over substance sort of thing.

Do you think it'd be realistic to find a sci fi setting where people see human frailty (for example, the flaws in joints/limbs after healing) to be a reason to replace a limb that can function without replacement?

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Its that part of the book where you have to make it through whatever odd fetish the author decided to include in their book to seem more quirky and interesting

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Epic.

>>25163070
>From the moment I understood the weakness of my flesh, it disgusted me.
I claimed the strength and certainty of steel. I aspired to the purity of the blessed machine.
Your kind claim to your flesh as if it will not decay and fail you.
One day the cooled biomass that you called a temple will fail you and you'll beg my kind to save you.
But I am already saved. For the machine is immortal. Even in death I serve the Omnissiah.

>>25163070
If flaws are retained after injury healed. Then why wouldnt flaws be retained after a complete replacement? Which is more extreme than something broken that is patched up. This is exactly why sci fi can he so stupid.

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O.S? Noting this to return to

>>25162581
Gap Cycle?
>>25162736
Nta It's better than Tigana, I haven't read Arbonne yet.

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Oh, he just represents the status quo. Thats obviously far less interesting, especially when your status quo lacks the depth to justify itself beyond "It is because it is". Kind of reminds me of how Democracy in the modern day no longer needs to be justified, just appealed to, because its the most currently stable system, which underpins the very lives we're born into, conditioned by, its hard to imagine a life any way other than your own, other than the very one your entire framework of understanding is grounded by. Even if you try to fight it, try to challenge it, that fight still, is conditioned by an oppossition or rejection of the norm. So that norm becomes the center of all "values" and in a twisted way, is validated by your opposition.
The same can be said for capitalism, although that one has many more obvious and intuitive conditions, but also its incestuous relationship with politics, allows for those contradictions to be smoothed over, and the "Ideal" to be maintained even if it becomes less of what it was, while still being enough of what it is, to be disdained.

All this does is make me more interested in Jehnovah Mason and how he thinks, why he thinks that way. And how he justifies the opposing of a status quo, which lacks the depth to be seen as anything but the surface level utopia it seems. Who doesn't want peace? Who doesn't want to "be proud of what they choose to be". I can conjure up a number of, a multitude of counterarguments to this. But like I said, the society presented in the story lacks the depth, like the grooves, the ups and downs of hills and valleys. The outside perspective to be sufficiently challenged.

Which brings up thoughts about Pluribus, I never thought Pluribus would have such an impact on how I think about Utopias. Without the perspective of Carol. If you had simply witnessed the survivors' interactions with the Hivemind virus (Holy fucking shit, I just made the connection in my head that the status quo Sniper is trying to protect is literally called the Hive. Intentional or not?????) the depth of the interaction would be lost. You wouldnt get the challenge from Carol about the superficiality of "happiness" that a drug addict could feel happy, that doesnt make it a good idea. Instead you'd have no choice but to accept the appeal to platitudes of "happiness", "peace", etc. Losing out on all the ways existence makes Human life meaningful by the upending of that, through following Carol before and after the Hivemind virus takes over. You come to appreciate Humanity as more than mere relation, mere happiness, mere peace, having anything you want, being anything you want in a world where being lost the substance that compels something to be.

Hopefully this series contains even half the amount of depth Pluribus was able to express in like 3 episodes.

I put out this spiel, completely aware that my interpretation of Pluribus is not the norm, but it just makes too much sense.

>>25163085
To give a very minor example.
I suffered a very minor bit of joint damage to my knees as a child. It causes me no actual functional harm. But I ache when it's about to rain. We live, presently, in an era where people who had one feminine thought as a boy will geld themselves to become a woman. Why wouldn't someone in an era with working prosthetics not cut off something less important than their balls?

>>25163006
somewhat ironic given this vague post tells us absolutely nothing. who am i meant to picture in this scathing indictment?

I saw a post talking about "Lupin the 3rd but in space", so naturally I must ask if there's any books that could be described as "Lupin the 3rd but fantasy."

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Unironically doing that r/atheist "IF THE LIBRARIES OF ALEXANDRIA NEVER BURNED WE'D BE LIVING ON MARS ALREADY!!!" meme. How twinkle eyed human progress can seem.
And I know the author already agrees with all this because she affirmed the Utopians in her afterword. I'm just interested in if she can say anything interesting about all this despite that fact.

>>25163128
>who am i meant to picture in this scathing indictment?
That's for you to decide and/or come to a conclusion about. The grounds for that lies before you, everywhere in this thread.

Oh and O.S is Owen and Schawrzchild isnt it? Some secret organization that believes killing the right people leads to justified peace or whatever. I imagine the ultimate point of this series will be that Utopia and Human progress is good and all, but its good the way the Utopians do it and not the Humanists, for whatever reason will be made apparent by the story.

So did Severain really decide to join Vodalus' rebelion just because he looked kino in the misty graveyard that night?

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I'm starting to realize something kind of disappointing and interesting at the same time:

How much so many of these sciene fiction books I've read recently, seem to rely so heavily on the concept of premonition broadly, so as to almost cheat certain concepts and ideas.

I'm not going to get too deep into it because none of you read. Certainly not my posts.

But the only counter argument to my counter argument of the shallow utilitarianism of assasinating important emough people to prevent a war but not start it...is if the set-set predictions are so perfect that nothing else could be right, no other world better or more perfect, or more conducive to human happiness than the ones they see and predict.

Technically my argument still works on tepid moral grounds. But a revolutionary group will almost always lose to the promise of a possible better world, to guaranteed predicted peace. Which at that point makes the problems of Utilitarianism, and its existence as a response to other moral systems, almost emptiness, because its correct by virtue of forseeing every possible ideal outcome.

One common argument against Utilitarianism is the idea for example that it might justify some actions, but then the norms that would arise out of those actions would overall be detrimental. I forgot the specific analogy often used that I used to hear so I can't give that. But the criticism of that is erased if you can always make the perfectly ideal action because you can predict everything perfectly.

The other problem with this writing wise (hypothetically) Is that the only way to reject this in your own story, is to write something that essentially magical or arbitrary that renders those predictions arbitrarily wrong suddenly.

I don't know if anybody even understands what I'm talkibg about, but this is my worry and concern with The Aspect Emperor series based on the bits I've heard about it

>>25163164
Yes. That's his entire motivation. He looked cool. And then he prepared to betray him at the first opportunity.

>>25159942
last time i read them was yeeears ago. i forgot which book i gave up on. IMO its become "hollywood-y"

>>25163230
Based honestly. Severain comes off as very stoic, but that's just because of how his future self narrates it. If we had a true first person perspective he would seem far more typical of teen/young adult fantasy protag. Except he has no issue getting girls.

>>25163164
Young Severian also blamed the Autarch for the way the world was and the oppression of the people. And Vodalus opposed the Autarch.

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Everybody thinks they're particular golden age is the truest one don't they

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Also can't they just use their set sets magical prediction powers to determine the outcome that would lose the most? This is what I mean about premonition, it can be used so arbitrarily when convenient and dismissed so arbitrarily when not, when the process and underlying fact of that matter that makes the premonition work, never has to be justified or explained. Its part of the problem with Kellhus, all it does is further cement the power of contrivance.

I hope a reason is given and explained why the set sets cant just predict what will happen and whether they should assasinate conveniently or not.