Infernalism is wrong and unChristian.And those who disagree, before you post your disagreement, please make sure that the Bibles you're using are translated correctly(that they're not the KJV bible, for example).
>>25168717Hell is an eternity spent rejecting GodEven going by Orthodox views, that would explain why it feels like a dark it of fire
>>25168722Not even the devil will reject God for eternity, God won't allow that. All of God's creations will joyously return to him.
>non-aramaic / ancient hebrew it's fan-fiction
>>25168717I was thinking of writing an essay on this
>>25168741wilt thou not cease to pervert the right things of the Lord> Therefore, son of man, speak unto the house of Israel, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Yet in this your fathers have blasphemed me, in that they have committed a trespass against me. 28For when I had brought them into the land, for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to them, then they saw every high hill, and all the thick trees, and they offered there their sacrifices, and there they presented the provocation of their offering: there also they made their sweet savour, and poured out there their drink offerings. 29Then I said unto them, What is the high place whereunto ye go? And the name thereof is called Bamah unto this day. 30Wherefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Are ye polluted after the manner of your fathers? and commit ye whoredom after their abominations? 31For when ye offer your gifts, when ye make your sons to pass through the fire, ye pollute yourselves with all your idols, even unto this day: and shall I be inquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I will not be inquired of by you. 32And that which cometh into your mind shall not be at all, that ye say, We will be as the heathen, as the families of the countries, to serve wood and stone....> 39As for you, O house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; Go ye, serve ye every one his idols, and hereafter also, if ye will not hearken unto me: but pollute ye my holy name no more with your gifts, and with your idols.
>>25168717people who castrate children need to believe in purgatory and purgatory universalism
>>25168717unitarianism/transcendentalism/pantheism isnt relevant today but purgatory/universalism is the obvious zoom zoom response to Christianity. >thats ok my reward for wilful ignirance is remedial classes in the afterlifethe answer to this laziness is to point out the Christ demands the whole mind
>>25168717when the coin in the ledger rings, the nft from purgatory springs
I wish I could grow a beard like that.
>>25168897>universalism is the obvious zoom zoom response to ChristianityEarly Church Fathers are "zoom zoom" to you?
>>25168977Are you implying that universalism was the normative position? It most certainly was not.
>>25168993Universalism was the majority view in early Church history. >“Basil the Great reported that the great majority of his fellow Eastern Christians assumed that the aiōnios kolasis, the “chastening of the Age” (or, as it is usually translated in English, “eternal punishment”) mentioned in Matthew 25:46, would consist in only a temporary probation of the soul”
>>25169014No he doesn't, all he does in the Rule, which DBH is referring to, is make use of the common rhetorical move of contrasting the lax "many" with the committed "few." It's a bit absurd to draw any strong distinction from this.
>>25169022I say this as someone who finds Patristic versions of universalism at least plausible BTW, and I'd agree that it is arguably an implied doctrine in many Fathers.
>>25169022DBH goes onto to say:>"and he offered no specifically lexicographic objection to such a reading”I don't think saints such as Gregory of Nyssa, Isaac of Nineveh, Makrina could be described as lax. On the contrary, infernalism started to be spread as a doctrine around the 6th century specifically to scare the masses into obeying clerical or imperial rule. The language of infernalism even began to change the way Bibles would be translated, with terms such as aionios, meaning age, instead translated as 'eternity'. This even though Saints such as John of Chrysostom used 'aionios' to describe the earhtly reign of Satan's kingdom, which is certainly not eternal. But no such distinction between aionios and 'eternity' is made in the Latin Bible or the KJV.
God glorifies himself through the eternal punishment of the reprobate.
>>25168717Preaching about hell is very American. when I mentioned it after moving to Germany, no one knew what I was talking about. That's what you get for living in a country founded by protestants and quakers.
>>25169164This. No one believed in Hell until colonial Protestants made it up in the 1600s because they were stupid poopoo heads.
>>25168717>Autistic Greek dudes debating each other for centuries over philosophies they made up based on a Jewish fairytale anthology based on Mesopotamian and Canaanite myths Give us a break from this shit already
>>25169193No
>>25169169I didn't say that.
>>25169232Sorry, it's hard for my peabrain to understand the musings of those who have experienced enlightened European atheism.
>>25169154we're talking about the Christian God, not the demonic, false god of Calvinism
>>25168722Perhaps it feels like eternity rather than being eternal.
>>25169290its a good thing that we have universalists again. it means people need an off ramp from believing in certainty again. universalism is one step away from agnosticism
>>25169338>believing in certainty again? I am certain that everyone will go to heaven. >one step away from agnosticismNo, it's actual Christianity.
>>25169368you know nothing, and your agnostic fringe nonsense is shared with unlikable meetinghouses of friends societies. this is why i like pentecostalists, their crazy doctrines are in the Bible
Augustine invented infernalism.Another saint pointed this out to him at a council.LITERALLY not a single church father prior to 5th century was an infernalist. Ever single one was universalist
>>25169564We can prove this by asking infernalists to quote a single church father who argued for eternal damnation prior to late 4th century.
Church Daddy said it so it's true. QED.
Catholics worship the church fathers far more faithfully than they do Christ. If there is disagreement between the two they take the Church Fathers side every single time.
>>25169579Someone who lived 300 years after Christ died would know better than (You). Yes there were heresies spreading during the time of the apostles as recorded in Scr*pture (fuck Prots btw, Inquisition when?) so proximity to Christ does not mean someone is correct but in this case it does.
HOW MANY FATHER FIGURES DO CHRISTIANS NEED, lmao
>>25169239I never said I was an atheist either. Protestants fled Europe to America because European protestants of the time were too liberal for them. These were the founders of America and it seeped into the entire culture. The rest of the western world moved on from preaching hellfire and damnation starting around the1700s onward. Bible-belt Christianity is a very specific offshoot, descended from that foundational population, that everyone should be able to agree is very identifiable by their behaviour. You jumpy little shit.
>>25169611>The rest of the western world moved on from preaching hellfire and damnation starting around the1700s onward.And? Why do you think that would have any relevance to anything?
>>25168993ironically universalism presents itself as a philosophy, when no "greek" who approaches Christianity philosophically would believe it, but only the "jews" who grew up with Christianity would follow that maudlin logic. its like epicureanism as a reaction to stoicism>>25169564> And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. 4But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.as you can see, "everlasting contempt" (viz. not fire) and "everlasting life" (viz. only the saved continue to exist) are only for "many of them that sleep", meaning not you. when you die, you just die, the end
>>25169071In the Rule Saint Basil is explicitly arguing against universalism. Saint Augustine also explicitly argued against it. It's far from clear that it was ever a particularly robust position, although it was certainly a more common one. The more modest thesis is that it was a fairly common esoteric doctrine in the monastic communities (but they also were loathe to teach it to the laity).
>>25169164This seems false to me. I went to a heavily immigrant Orthodox Church for a while and they mentioned Hell and the demons all the time.And then common Catholic prayers used in all churches across the world mention it frequently. If anything, it's the opposite. I went to a Protestant retreat in the southern US recently and Hell wasn't mentioned the entire weekend except obliquely. Actually, it was oddly therapeutic and self-esteem focused I thought.Whereas:>O My Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of Hell and lead all souls to Heaven, especially those who are in most need of Thy mercy.Is repeated throughout the Rosary usually and in many masses.Whereas Orthodox daily prayer has stuff like:>O spotless, undefiled, incorrupt, immaculate, pure Virgin, Lady Bride of God, who by thy wondrous conceiving hast united God the Word to man, and joined the outcast nature of our race to heavenly things, O only hope of the hopeless, and succour of the embattled, the ready help of them that have recourse to thee, and refuge of all Christians: abhor me not, the sinner, the accursed one, who have altogether made myself unprofitable by shameful thoughts, words, and deeds, and with the heartsease of life's pleasures am become a thrall in mind. But as the Mother of the man-befriending God, do thou, in man-befriending wise, take pity upon me a sinner and prodigal, and receive my supplication, offered thee on unclean lips. And using thy boldness as a mother, entreat thy Son, our Master and Lord, that He may open even unto me the loving compassions of His goodness, and that, overlooking mine innumerable trespasses, He would turn me to repentance, and make me the approved doer of His commandments. And be thou ever with me, as thou art merciful, and compassionate, and the lover of good, being in this life a fervent protectress and help, to defend me from the assaults of adversaries, and guide me unto salvation; and in the hour of my departure, to care for my wretched soul, and drive far from it the dark countenances of evil demons; and in the terrible day of judgment, to deliver me from eternal torment, and show me forth as an heir of the unspeakable glory of thy Son and our God. This be my lot, O my Lady, most holy Theotokos, by thy mediation and help, through the grace and love for man of thine Only-begotten Son, our Lord and God and Savior Jesus Christ, to Whom is due all glory, honour, and worship, with His Father which is without beginning, and His All-holy and good and life creating Spirit, now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.Every night before prayer.Plus, the great Catholic epic is still pic related.
>>25169766And yet hell isn't mentioned in the Bible even once, Catholics made up a fantasy torture dimension over the span of centuries,
>>25169766the reason for>>hell is americanistis that when harvard and the Masters of Divinity went transcendentalist into universalist, the congregations simply left the church and set up a congregationalist fundamentalist hellfire and damnation church across town with tea and cookies. calling it americanist is the way the coastal elite say these people cling to their guns and their Bibles
>>25169790>hell isn't mentioned in the Bible even oncewow youre right> Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:> And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.> When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 11And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 13And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.no mentions of hell in this text. golly, i never knew that God loved us so much as to compel us to be saved. irresistible grace and total atonement is the best of all possible worlds. also, it wouldnt be fitting for a loving God to make me unable to eat ice cream and cookies for every meal. time for a trip to coldstone creamery
>>25169790This is patently false, and it's important to note that all the Patristic universalists thought Hell was real, they just thought it wouldn't last forever (often making a distinction between the age to come and the end of the ages).Consider the literal rendering of Matthew 25:41:>Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;This and many other passages speak of punishment for the wicked. It's all through the OT and NT. When Hart or Talbot argue for universalism they challenge the reading of it as "infinite temporal duration," not as not existing at all. That would be ridiculous.
>>25169790>Catholics made up.The Eastern and Oriental Orthodox believe in Hell too.Pretty sure it's the Orthodox who first made universalism anathema at their councils actually.
>>25169859>the Orthodox who first made universalism anathema at their councils actually.I'm pretty sure that never happened. David Bentley Hart is ok with the Eastern Orthodox Church, and he's a famous modern universalist.
>>25169850Also, the traditional Churches all accept purgation. The difference is that the Catholic understanding got wrapped up in their satisfaction understanding of the Atonement post-Anselm and got increasingly calcified in later scholastic thought. But the general practice of prayers for the dead and a period of waiting and purgation is common (there are also Toll Houses in some circles).
Anything that contradicts Catholic teaching is heretical and you WILL burn for eternity if you embrace it. Just the way it is.
>>25169866It's explicitly condemned at the Fifth Ecumenical Council (2nd Constantinople), which included the Latin West but was more heavily Eastern."Hopeful universalism" versus dogmatic universalism gives both Catholics and Orthodox some wiggle room here. But Hart is pretty dogmatic and he *has* been roundly criticized by plenty of Orthodox figures. He is hardly mainstream orthodoxy. Pretty sure I've even seen two different metropolitans speak out against Hart.
>>25169871That isn't even Catholic doctrine though... you're stuck in a performative contradiction. Indeed, they even say the Eastern churches have completely valid Apostolic succession and sacraments and have occasionally done communion with them.
>>25169871The Catholic god is not the Christian God, any god that would punish a being for all eternity is not a god worthy of being worshipped, and certainly is not loving and merciful God of Christianity, who is the one true God. >>25169881"hopeful universalists" are those who believe that their own mercy could possibly exceed God's which is impossible.
>>25169579Protestants really think their personal (and extremely incorrect btw) interpretations of scripture are always 100% correct and the unequivocal word of God, and that anyone who disagrees is making shit up
>>25169871if only the magesterium was infalliable enough to not declare aquinas was right about everything and also the immaculate conception is a mandatory dogma during the same papacy
>>25168861I'm actually a Christian, pal.
>>25168717How do you reconcile universalism with Matthew 26:24?>The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed: it were better for him, if that man had not been born.This passage is a direct quote from Jesus, and it refers to Judas Iscariot. It is normally interpreted to mean that Judas went to Hell for his betrayal. Note how Jesus says it would be better for Judas if he were never born. If Judas was ever going to go to Heaven, this statement would simply be false. Even if Judas spent a hundred trillion years in Hell, if he eventually got out and spent the rest of eternity with God then his existence would be a net positive, and it would not be accurate to say that it would be better for him to have never been born. You can suppose that some people eventually get out of Hell, but Judas at least will not. And should we suppose that he's the only one? Probably not.The closest thing to universalism that could reasonably be true is that eventually everyone who wants to accept God could get out of hell, but given that there are billions of people, there will probably be some who won't want that.
>>25168928I can.
>>25169881>It's explicitly condemned at the Fifth Ecumenical Council (2nd Constantinople)No it wasn't. https://firstthings.com/saint-origen/
>>25170107That verse is obviously hyperbole, like if someone angry at you were to say to you you'll "rue the day you were born", even though what they might do to you doesn't actually make you regret being born, but it conveys to you how angry they are at you. Many times throughout the bible Jesus speaks in metaphorical language. In any case, trying to conjure proof of eternal torment from that verse is gradping at straws. Besides, if God really did think thst Judas was better off never being born, why did he create Judas?
>>25170129Judas had a role to play. He still has to suffer for eternity for it however.
>>25170107>given that there are billions of people, there will probably be some who won't want that.A being rejecting God is only possible due to either ignorance, or irrationality, neither of which is the fault of that being. God is transcendent being, transcendent goodness, it is not possible for a rational, knowledgeable being to reject God for eternity.
>>25170129>if God really did think thst Judas was better off never being born, why did he create Judasdid God create judas or did Jesus create judas? how is Jesus God if God and Jesus are distinct?
>>25170137If God created Judas only to punish him for all eternity, then God would be utterly evil. Read what Saint Isaac said in the OP pic.
There are plenty of saints that mention hell.
>>25170145>how is Jesus God if God and Jesus are distinct?It's the mystery of the trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all wholly one God, yet they are also distinct from one another. I can't explain the trinity.
>>25170150God by definition cannot be evil. Only humans can.
>>25170172>God by definition cannot be evil.Which is why your assertion that he created Judas knowing that he would eternally torture Judas is evil. God by definition is not evil, so by definition God wouldn't eternally torment anyone in hell.
>>25170175did judas ever doesnt matter had sex
>>25170175Read Job. Whatever God does or doesn't do is above both your comprehension and your judgement, so just because something seems "evil" from your point of view doesn't mean it is.
Have any of you retards heard of the fifteen canons against Origen? This controversy was literally decided in favor of the infernalists in the sixth century by an ecumenical council. You guys are so fucking retarded I can’t believe it.
>>25170583>This controversy was literally decided in favor of the infernalists in the sixth century by an ecumenical councilOh good some old catholic faggots decided it for us. Great load off me mind.
>>25170120Odd of him not to mention that the anathemas were reaffirmed at the Third Council or that consensus opinion is that they were accepted prior to the opening of the Council.
>>25170470You view God as a capricious god completely divorced from Human reason and understanding, no different than an Aztec sun god.>“Some Christians, even some who accept the ancient metaphysical definitions of God as the Good in itself, often affect to obey so exaggerated an apophatic stricture on their reasoning with regard to God as to render all analogy impossible, and thus to reduce all theological statements to sheer assertions emanating from some mysterious source of authority that itself (again, because analogical thinking has been abandoned) cannot be certified by any power of reason at all. ”>“Faith thus becomes nothing but mindless submission to a collection of intrinsically unintelligible oracles arriving from an entirely hidden source.”Faith without reason is no different from nihilism.
>>25170137if Judas had a role to play in a larger plan, why would that lead to eternal punishment rather than something corrective or proportional?
>>25170158Pythagoras would like to have a word with you
