Why do Tolkien fans hate Martin and his fans even though Martin and his fans love Tolkien and his works?
They both suck, like all fantasy, no, genre authors.
>>25171973tolkien: catholic univeralist moralfagging cuckthe other guy: realist pornslop
So when are these manchildren going to read actual "older literature" like Shakespeare, Homer, Aeschylus, Moliere.
>>25171978>pornslopThere's like four sex scenes across the entire series.
>>25172011never.
Because Tolkien's world is filled with depth, philosophy and meaning. Meanwhile Martin's world is just alternate history, he has essentially nothing to say, he's just inventing his own fantastical history based on actual historical books, it's as deep as Harry Potter really.
>>25172080>Because Tolkien's world is filled with depth, philosophy and meaningBut mostly walking, lots and lots of walking. Even the fucking trees walked.
The funny thing is they're both crap. It's like watching two cripples fighting.
>>25172080Never read the books award
>>25172038i only saw the netflix series lmao but every episode there is a scene that if you told me was from pornhub i'd believe you (other than incest subtext, etc)
>>25172105My favorite scene is when Theon is fucking the daughter of the captain of a ship and she says to him "please, take me away from here, make me your wife, my father would call me a whore if he found out we had sex" and then he replies "I'm not paying you" lmaoo
>>25172105This is /lit/, we're talking about the books here. The show is basically fanficiton.
>>25172125>>25172038Serious?
>>25171973Its not really "Tolkien fans" generally that make these kind of posts, but a very specific subset within Tolkien fans of pseudo-tradcath chuds that have chosen to make Tolkien the great representative of their rather middling worldview.
>>25172129Tolkien was a traditional catholic, retard.
>>25172128I guess it depends on what you consider a sex scene, seems like wherever you got this table from considers any form of nudity whatsoever as a sex scene
>>25172128/lit/ is the last place I expected to see people using AI as a source of information
>Why do some stupid people enjoy shitty garbage thing but better people like something better and why do both sides agree that better thing is goodHmmmm
>>25171976Is there an easier tell of someone who is ill-read?
>>25171973At the height of GRRM's popularity he was trying to brand himself as the superior version - not to mention American - of Tolkien.The fact he's had such a tremendous fall from grace has opened him up to years and years of mockery. If only we had thousands upon thousands of stories that warn about pride and narcissism, otherwise maybe GRRM would have seen this coming. oh well...
>>25172080>Because Tolkien's world is filled with depth, philosophy and meaning. Meanwhile Martin's world is just alternate history, he has essentially nothing to say, he's just inventing his own fantastical history based on actual historical books, it's as deep as Harry Potter really.
>>25172520This quote is basically the genesis of Tolkien fans hating Martin fans. Martin isn't criticizing Tolkien in this quote, he's just explaining how his writing style is different. Martin loves Tolkien and praises him constantly. Using this quote as evidence that Martin is oppositional to Tolkien is just absurd.
>>25172543gem
>>25172545No, he is explicitly criticizing Tolkien. The full quote begins with "This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with."That same interview also has a section where GRRM says he's never been worried about surpassing Tolkien, and that the template of good vs. evil Tolkien created was a mistake; in another interview went so far as to say it's greatly harmed the genre. In an earlier convention he said that Tolkien fucked up by bringing Gandalf back, and that he should have stayed dead, which is a bad opinion but also brings into question if GRRM understands anything Tolkien wrote.He pays Tolkien lip service because it's expected but it's clear he's been seething at the guy's popularity - and thinking he could do better - for decades.
>>25171973The debate over Tolkien's morality and Martin's immorality is merely a lens through which contemporary discussions of American culture unfold. The shift away from Christian morality in favor of an ideologically established one signaled a lack of morality to the right-wing, which they equate with nihilism. In the same way, woketards see those who don't share his beliefs as -ists. And no one here considers the true nature of moral imperatives, principles, and absolutes, only one system of rules against another.The best part is that literature itself cannot be divided in this way. Authors who postulate good and evil don't always think about these matters in a Christian way, and authors who don't operate on these principles don't always propose nihilism. Martin, for example, doesn't propose nihilism. It is perfectly morally empty, amoral in the sense that there's no trace of moral consciousness.The only thing there is voracity. For sex, for violence, for intrigue. When one urge is satisfied, another is immediately satisfied. That's the whole secret of Martin's success. A "literature" of satisfying fantasies.Personally, however, I have a bigger problem than the moral and spiritual emptiness of this easy literature. From the beginning, I was put off by Martin's failure to bother with studying history beyond the high school textbook on the Wars of the Roses. The mentality of his characters is exemplary American; they sound like wealthy white people from the suburbs (or immigrants from Islamic countries, in the case of the southern continents). It's a common problem with American fantasy, or culture in general, that they can't transcend Americanness. At the same time, this works to Martin's advantage (financially), because he doesn't write for the broadly knowledgeable, but for those whose cultural experience is limited primarily to American cinema and television/streaming. Game of Thrones is simply The Bold and the Beautiful.
>>25172580Martin and Martin fans love Tolkien, this beef is incredibly one-sided and it clearly just comes from tradcath larpers who are offended by the mere existence of stories that don't operate on biblical morality, as if it's not possible for a reader to like both kinds of stories.
>>25172586>The mentality of his characters is exemplary AmericanCan you give some examples?
>>25172586Another Tolkiendrone who thinks tolkien is "old literature" and thinks grey morality was invented with the publication of game of thronesTolkiendrones are delusional
>>25172589Okay, so be it. In chapter four of the first volume, King Robert came to meet Eddard (by the way, this American fantasy tradition of twisting names and historical names is also hilarious). They go together to the crypt where Lyanna is buried. The following dialogue ensues:>“She was more beautiful than that,” the king said after a silence. His eyes lingered on Lyanna’s face, as if he could bring her back to life. Finally, he rose, made awkward by his weight. “Ah, damn it, Ned, did you have to bury her in a place like this?” His voice hoarse with remembered grief. “She deserved more than darkness".First, this language is typically American ("damn!" after all, historically comes from "damned" and has religious connotations, meaning contexts of use that, like "hell," are used very broadly in contemporary American usage). But what catches my eye is the way of expressing thoughts. It's very modern, individualistic, i.e., a person's fate is their own. This isn't medieval at all, nor was it even known before the European 18th century. The same goes for Ned (by the way, this tendency to shorten words and names is distinctly American). The death of his siter, who is a beloved in the sense of modern individual bond between siblings, is a private matter shared with the king only because she is his friend, that is, for personal reasons.If this conversation were truly medieval in spirit, the king's visit would be perceived primarily as an elderly guardian visiting a vassal under his care. They might even have liked each other, but the primary motifs are care, devotion, and obligation. And this is a cosmic vision, not a contemporary, purely social one.The same is true of death. A person doesn't die just like that. God calls them to Himself. If someone suffers the loss of a loved one, it is a very tragic grief, because it is against God's will. Moreover, these negative feelings were usually projected onto enemies, as those who disturbed the order of things.Incidentally, Lynna is elsewhere described with the epithet "savage" as something positive. Perhaps among the earliest Germanic people, this would have been a compliment, but in the late Middle Ages it was an insult. They had undergone a profound transformation since the Germanic conquests. After all, the word "Gothic," as the name of an architectural style, was intended to denote its barbarity ("like the Goths"), un-Romanness, even un-Christianity.I could go on, but you get the point.
>>25172631I didn't write about what Tolkien is like. I wrote about how he's perceived. If I explained anything, it was the nature of Martin's writing.But hey, let's not kid ourselves that you can read with comprehension.
>"older" literature>it's a novel published at the height of the modern period (1954)Mass literacy was a mistake.
>>25172638>Tolkien fanboys pretends he knows shit about the middle agesThe Term "Gothic" to describe Gothic Architecture didn't come into parlance until the renaissance, after the late middle ages you absolute retard.
>>25172671A Game of Thrones was published in 1996. That makes The Lord of the Rings older.
>>25172675And didn't the Renaissance nobility appear shortly after the late medieval nobility? Isn't this part of the same process of Christianization and Romanization? Wasn't the departure from Romanesque architecture a departure from the model of two cultures christo-barbarian, which, after unification and achieving own identity, could easily return to ancient patterns?And do you know that nitpicking is more of a sign of insecurity than intelligence?
WHAT IS THE IRON THRONE'S TAX POLICY GEORGEWHAT IS IT.>>25172520
>>25172638This is sheer mental illness. America lives rent free in your head and it's not healthy.
>>25172719Yet you nitpicked the swear "Damn" which appears in English in the late 1500s, the late renaissance.So it's fine to conflate the renaissance and late middle ages because according to you they're close enough but Martin is bad for using the swear "damn" despite it being used in the renaissance?And you criticising Martin for using terms like damn and hell is ironic because medieval swears were more focused on blaspheming than modern swears. "God's Bones" was a common swear in medieval england. You claim to know shit about the medieval era when really you know next to nothing about it.
>>25172130Very large difference between a writer being a Catholic and 'tradcaths', which are not really Catholic in any meaningful sense of the word but rather just reactionary dorks that think cathedrals and elaborate lists of dogmas are cool because it looks like warhammer 40k.
>>25172587>LOTR operates on biblical moralityhave you read it? it operates on the morality of northern european sagas and folklore
>>25172741I was asked for an example of Martin's Americana style. A linguistic analysis is in order. Besides, you didn't even demonstrate its inaccuracy or the overall flaw in your argument. All you could do was invent a problem: I suggested the word "Gothic" appeared in the Renaissance, ignoring the nature of my argument, which concerned the cultural transformation of elites in Germanic countries.Ergo, you're simply trying to be intelligent without any real intelligence. I've seen tons of people like you here; you never have anything interesting to say.
>>25172893you suggested*
>>25172893>I suggested the word "Gothic" appeared in the Renaissance, ignoring the nature of my argument, which concerned the cultural transformation of elites in Germanic countries.You suggested the Word "gothic" appeared in the middle ages you retard. It didn't. It appeared in the renaissance.And you ignore that medieval people used curses like "God's Blood" and "God's teeth"Stop coping you pseud.
>>25172128"Semi-explicit" is carrying a lot of weight. By that logic the rapes that are off-page in "Narn i Hin Hurin" and Elrond's wife getting fucked by orcs in the LOTR appendix would count. Not to mention Turin and his sister, "Narn" again."Narn" is Tolkien doing grimdark, if anyone had asked for that.
>>25172080His analysis on power is great.
>>25172638>Finally, he rose, made awkward by his weight.Once you read good fiction, Martin's tendency to tell instead of show gets really hard to endure.
>>25171973Tolkien could actually construct a sentence.Martin writes as though English were his second or third language.
>>25172855Hardly. There is no absolute morality in the Sagas. No Dark Lords, or Angelic Elves. No objective right or wrong.
>>25172833Not really sure why you don't think traditional catholics are catholics aside from baseless insults, but Tolkien was a very traditional catholic
>>25173055>There is no absolute morality in the SagasWhy do you say this? Does "absolute morality" require
>>25173063Angels, ghosts or whatever? Because ghosts do actually appear there.
>>25172912I have a feeling your reading comprehension skills are poor. I'll try to make this as clear as I can: I didn't say there were no curses in the Middle Ages, especially religious ones. I said that Martin uses the curse in way of modern times, without a religious context, as a meaningless interlude. In other words, in the Middle Ages, these curses mean more than in Martin's work, because in Martin's work, they mean nothing.
In Tolkien, characters actively choose to be 'good' or 'evil' and then get punished or rewarded based on that choice. It's the same philosophy as the Torah, I mean, the Bible. In Martin, characters are forced to make choices over what they prioritize (love, honor, power, family, friendship, duty, sex) and then face the punishment for the choice they make. It's a pagan and tragic worldview at odds with Christianity.>>25172080Harry Potter has the exact same philosophic messaging as Tolkien. Although I'd argue Voldemort is a more interesting antagonist than Sauron
>>25172389Why? 4chan has been flooded by nonstop retards since 2016.
>>25172986>tell instead of showIsn't it always "telling", in literature? How are you supposed to "show" in a book? With pictures?
>>25173360>2016I still think it started around 2007 and reached terminal velocity around 2012.
>>25173081Apart from the fact that the word "damn" was used in late 1500s england, not medieval certainly but you yourself consider it a time period you consider no different from the middle ages.
>>25173060He's not insulting "traditional catholics" he's insulting "tradcaths" which are two different things. Tradcaths are basically edgy teenagers who pretend to be Catholic because religion is counter-culture right now in the same way that punk and rock music was 50 years ago, but they don't read the Bible, they don't go to church, they don't go to confession, and they likely wont still call themselves Catholic in five years because they'll have moved on to a different trend by them.
>>25173623Tradcath is just shortened traditional catholic. It seems you are just raging at people who argued with you online instead of showing understanding and humble compassion.
I remember seeing a version of this meme where Tolkien was depicted as racist. Most right wingers like Tolkien not because he's good but because he was "old" and that would make him (in their eyes) racist and therefore good
Tolkien fans are deep into power worship and see liking Tolkien as a victory in a game of one-upmanship that Martin fans have lost a long time ago and aren't even playing anymore.They're sore winners and egotistical.
>>25171973Patricians will always feel desdain for plebs
>>25174067Kek
>tolkien hates nazis and apartheid >biggest proponent is Stephen Colbert >is beloved on reddit >has funko pops and Lego sets Tradsisters….
>>25173994>Tradcath is just shortened traditional catholic. It seems you are just raging at people who argued with you online instead of showing understanding and humble compassion.
>>25174184I look exactly like this and say this
>>25174184I am not a catholic. I am a sadist who insults people, inflicts his pain on others, and never ever backs down from any slight on shrugs and says "I won't participate in this struggle."It doesn't take much for a mortal like me to increase the overall suffering in the world and contribute to the vicious cycle of resentment and sundering.
>>25174184strangest part of the 4chan mind is the consolidation of things they don't like. hate zoomers, hate tradcath larpers, ah of course, they must be the same people!!!the two have nothing to do with each other, dumbass.
>>25174294>strangest part of the 4chan mind is the consolidation of things they don't like. hate zoomers, hate tradcath larpers, ah of course, they must be the same people!!!>the two have nothing to do with each other, dumbass.
>>25174302Pure A10 Western Hunter Gatherer Scythian Ango-Germanic Aryan Beast destined to save the White Race
why do normies only talk about literature in terms of "good" and "evil"moralfagging has literally nothing to do with the quality of a work
>>25171973"Sunset found her squatting in the grass, groaning. Every stool was looser than the one before, and smelled fouler. By the time the moon came up she was shitting brown water"I don't hate GRRM, as that would require me to think of him often.His short scifi stories are better put together, but he remains a sordid tawdry little man.
>>25173994It seems you don't understand how language works and you think the literal etymology of a word is the same as the definition or connotation of a word. It's obvious that you yourself are catholic and you can't make the distinction between people making fun of tradcath larpers and people making fun of actual catholics so you start getting defensive even when nobody is trying to offend you.
>>25174339>I don't hate GRRM, as that would require me to think of him often.You say this but everything else about your post implies he lives rent free in your head
>>25173065It requires Good and Evil.
>>25171973There is kind of an argument between the fantasy camp who like traditional heroism and flights of fancy and the fantasy camp who like darker fantasy worlds filled with unscrupulous characters. It's the same kind of argument with Tolkien vs Moorcock
>>25171973The gods in GRRM world are not good or evil. The Other is linked to duty, death. It's the Moon. R'hollor is linked to desire, life. It's basically sun worship. Helios, Lucifer. The faith of the seven is the closest to christianity. Even if the polytheistic aspect (seven) can confuse.
>>25171973do people actually believe this dumb meme?
>>25175058i wouldn't call them "people" per se, but yes
>>25173994my god you are an autistic retard. stick to coloring books.
>>25172129>>25174001
>>25171973A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms>A Song of Ice and Fire
>>25175056Martin is an atheist, it's likely that the gods of his universe are not real. Maybe the closest you'd get is a god-like being such as Bloodraven.
>>25175136"I am an atheist" is a cover up for luciferian. He knows way too much about esoteric stuff to be an atheist, with an atheistic upbringing.
>>25175425"esoteric stuff" is two clicks away on the internet, it's hardly a secret to anyone anymore
Why do rightoids do this meme so much? You'd think that of all people they'd love the classics
>>25172389To be entirely fair, we walked down this road the very moment we started allowing thirdies and leftists to speak freely here. There is no verifiable source of information that isn't AI, so why does it matter when people use AI?This is like bitching about AI replacing Paco's job. We already went down the road of hiring Paco, it is still a shit sandwich, just not a soggy one.
>>25175136His gods are 100% going to be either man-made constructs or really powerful wizards. Vocal atheist writers just can't help themselves.
Wouldn't it be lovely if everyone was awful and the world was whimsical and fun, and your fanciful adventures were never bogged down by autistic background lore?
