Was Moorcock right?
>>25191076Im hiding your thread but first im going to call you a faggot. Faggot.
Hating Tolkien is the fantasy equivalent of hating the Beatles
>>25191085The correct opinion?
Yes.
>>25191076Tolkien is cool but Tolkien's fan aren't. Many such cases!
>>25191087If you wish.It's a perspective. It's alright to flog the sacred cow from time to time.Tolkien's world is, at bottom, bad. Illuvitar is a gross figure.Moorcock just begs the budding writer to not follow the same script. Do something new.
more-cock comes off like a whiny fag jealous that him and his buttbuddies werent as popular
>>25191076>Epic PooYou mean the Mahabharata?
>>25191076Moorcock is the most overrated fantasy author in history. You cannot talk about anything fantasy related without some gay nerd standing up and ranting about how actually Moorcock is the greatest and most influential fantasy author of all time and we basically owe all of modern fantasy to him and him alone, and then you go and actually read his stories and it's the most boring and formulaic garbage you've ever read in your life.He is, at best, a decent idea guy. The black blade would be a cool idea, except that he put it into the hands of someone as whiny and pointless as Elric of Melnibone. The war between law and chaos would be a cool idea, except that he's not skilled enough to portray it as anything other than the same generic battle between good and evil he loves to complain about.And so, Moorcock's dicksuckers are right when they say that modern fantasy is Moorcock's fault. His excessive focus on "worldbuilding" for its own sake while writing predictable plots about lifeless characters is directly responsible for the rise of hacks like Jordan and Sanderson. Tolkienfags love to blame GRRM for ruining fantasy, but the truth is that Moorcock ruined it first.
>>25191119Hardly.
>>25191129You're right, Fritz Lieber is a serious competitor for the title. All he ever did was write tepid sex comedies masquerading as adventure stories and gay nerds all hold him up as THE heroic fantasy guy. At least his stories are occasionally entertaining though, unlike Moorcock.
Tolkien glazers are so thinskinned kek
>>25191119yeah.. moorcock should have handed Stormbringer to Conan.you simple forest turd
>>25191085That is true… but they’re both extremely far from the peak of their medium, something that their fans misunderstand. They’re pop art thought of as high art by those fans and sometimes it doesn’t hurt to school these people, a little bit. I don’t mind either I guess.
>>25191076I think his assessment of Tolkien is correct but it's when he gets to "and that's a bad thing!" that I disagree with.
>>25191172Nah tolkien is high art the same way the illiad is. He set out to build a fundamental component of English civilization and he succeeded, although not exactly the way he thought he might. Moorcock will be forgotten (and likely the Beatles too), Tolkien won't be.
Moor cock is the type of a guy who thinks tolkien is too childish so he wrote something edgy and it turned out to be the most manchild cringe shit imaginable.
>>25191172The argument would have more strength if it were (almost) anyone but Moorcock writing it. It's not even the pot calling the kettle black, it's a junkie who correctly sees that the pretentious artsy fartsy types are all fags, but all he can create in response is a piece of graffiti about how he's so much better and deserves to be more popular than them. Which is itself interesting in a way, but no replacement for the class and quality of the genuine work of art, while Tolkien's work belongs to.
>>25191244Tolkiendrones being delusional once again.Tolkien fanboys know fuck all about english culture and think a catholic hack created a "fundmental component" of its civilization, LMAO
Moorcock was jealous of Tolkien.
>>25191353.....Tolkien was unironically one of the biggest Anglo-Saxon scholars of his time.
I'm taking an le epic pooh rn while I phone post. Also Tolkien created a beautiful, timeless, English mythology, not lame genre fiction like this pooh fag
I don’t care for Tolkien. That kind of stuff just doesn’t appeal to me. But his name is basically More Cock; can’t take a man with that name very seriously.
>>25191170He should have made Elric someone worth reading about. Moorcock promises this totally edgy anti-hero, and then presents a character who's just unambiguously heroic 99% of the time who just happens to occasionally break character and commit genocide for no reason, or his magic sword will kill someone without his permission so he can angst about how heckin evil and doomed he is. Moorcock promises these exciting adventure stories, but every single time Elric is danger he just pulls some spirit you've never heard of out of his ass and the spirit effortlessly saves him and then you never hear about it again, repeat three times per book. You're assured from the beginning and countless times throughout the series that he's so totally heckin doomed and stuff, so that when he finally dies pointlessly like a dog at the end it's just completely boring and trite.The fact of the matter is that every author who's ever ripped off the idea of the black blade ended up doing it far better than Moorcock. So it's more like Moorcock should have handed Stormbringer to a better author.
Tolkein spoke thirty languages, wrote Lord of the Rings, and fought in WW1. Moorcock could have lived to be 300 and he wouldn't have accomplished what Tolkien did.
>>25191244>Nah tolkien is high art the same way the illiad isThis made my day.
>>25191411Why would you want a totally edgy anti hero anyways though. I mean Moorcock is crap but like. The whole idea is crap.
>>25191244>tolkien is high artR-right, sure, anon.
>>25191119>Moorcock's dicksuckers are right when they say that modern fantasy is Moorcock's fault.No one says this.>His excessive focus on "worldbuilding" for its own sake while writing predictable plots about lifeless characters is directly responsible for the rise of hacks like Jordan and Sanderson.Haha what? First wheel of time is a straight copy of fellowship. These guys are all inspired by Tolkien more than anything else. Curious also if you think Tolkien didn't write predictable plots...?
>>25191427Is the Illiad high art?
>>25191441Also directed at the other 115 IQs ITT: >>25191353>>25191417
>reading or paying any attention to more cock
>>25191423You might have wanted it by way of variety if you were writing back when the Del Reys' slop machine was churning out predictable garbage on the other end of the edginess spectrum. He wasn't wrong to want variety, he just wasn't skilled enough to deliver on it.>>25191429>No one says this.Many say this.>First wheel of time is a straight copy of fellowship.Yeah and the first three WOT books are the only good parts of the series. Later on the series when Jordan decides "all right now the plot is going to come to a screeching halt so I can spend three books explaining the politics of this tribe of seafaring black chicks even though not a single one of them is an important character," that's Moorcock's legacy, it's the fruit of the idea that a fantasy author should be an idea guy first and foremost.>Curious also if you think Tolkien didn't write predictable plots...?A lot less predictable than Moorcock. When Elric encounters a problem, either some spirit just takes care of it or the sword starts swinging on its own, no exceptions, it's the same exact thing over and over and over again.
>>25191441>>25191446It has far greater literary quality than anything Tolkien ever wrote, so yes. Just because it’s fantastical stories does not make it similar. The Iliad is credited with being the catalyst that pushed western literature forward. It explores more complex, and human themes than Tolkien ever touched upon. And as far the writing itself, it far surpasses anything Tolkien ever did. He was a world builder, not a literary genius.
>>25191415Being able to read a language is not the same as fluency. LotR is a bad novel and fails as an epic on every level. Fighting in WWI is great... if you're deeply invested int destroying European civilisation and unleashing another quarter century of madness and violent savagery.
>>25191085I wouldn't say that. The Beatles didn't create nearly as much as Tolkien.
>>25191460>It has far greater literary qualityHave you read it in the original Greek? It's a mishmash of styles spanning centuries and warped by oral tradition. The concept of literary quality did not exist. >The Iliad is credited with being the catalyst that pushed western literature forwardAs did LOTR, but for a far more powerful and likely influential (in the long run) civilization. Our descendents in the stars will think in English, not Greek.>It explores more complex, and human themes than Tolkien ever touched upon.Which?
>read multiple "Elric" books>ohhhh my dark and tortured existeeeence>whaaat? a guy who's more evil than me?? we'll see about that!!>takes drugs, falls into convulsing trance, makes contact with elementals>elementals come and fight like clash of the titans>now elric is on a beach>whaaaat? my haunted past???>takes drugs, falls into trance, summons elementals>whaaaat? my evil kingdom i spurned/toppled and my evil nemesis who's basically just me with a beard?>takes drugs, falls into trance, summons elementals>and then there's the time he has 4 people captain planet fusion sex with some other guys and they turn into some kind of 8-armed hindu god thing and prance around to fight a shoggothso this is the great "eternal champion" that inspired all those tortured prog rock artists.... damn.....
>>25191460>It has far greater literary quality than anything Tolkien ever wrote,It really doesn't. You just think it has to, because it occupies a religions place in your mind due to schooling.
Science fiction is superior to fantasy in just a general sense but this modern reddit atheist hatred for Tolkien is so fucking pedestrian.Also: >Ummmm... escapism!? In MY Science fictionisms and fantasies!? YIKES!!Really motherfucker?
>the conservative assumption that if you are a good person you'll try to have a good and just government
>you see, the guy who rapes children and kills people in cold blood is just as bad as you who... wants your wife to stay home >we're all have shades of grey!This has the most stupid ideology of all time.
>Tolkien: Nature, the countryside, traditional English values and honest salt-of-the-earth folk are good, industrialization and men turning into machines to serve totalitarian causes are bad.>reddit: WHAT UTTERLY BANAL TRIPE >:((((>Iliad: We're a bunch of swarthy pederasts who go around buggering each other and throwing hissy fits over our forever-war, something something rosy fingered dawn>reddit: OHHHH!! SUCH BEAUTIFUL PROSE!!!! TRULY THIS IS THE PINNACLE OF ART ;;;_;;; *drips söy latte foam from hipster stache*
>>25191520upboated
>>25191520>Nature, the countryside, traditional English values and honest salt-of-the-earth folk are good, industrialization and men turning into machines to serve totalitarian causes are bad.What utterly banal trite.
When and why did The Eternal Internet Timmy turn against Tolkien? Was it the Amazon series? I bet it was the Amazon series.
>>25191520The problem with this argument is that few of the people who hate on Tolkien have actually read the Illiad or any other classical work, lmao. It's why I brought it up. They're appealing to academia without any direct thought or experience of their own, if that makes sense.>>25191537Probably in reaction to whatever cultural shift caused Palantir and Anduril to be named what they are. It predates the Amazon theories, I remember tumblrcunts starting the "akchually Tolkien was PROBLEMATIC" shit in the 2010s at the latest.
>>25191117heh
>>25191537>When and why did The Eternal Internet Timmy turn against Tolkien?There have never been more thoughtless consumers uncritically consuming Tolkien and labelling him as a deep thinker than ever before.
>>25191568If that's true, then why this trend?
Tolkien fanboys once again expose themselves as illiterate tradlarping ESLsEngland has its own mythology it didn't need some academic hack to "create one" Tolkien fans get filtered by poetry and older literature so they resort to pretending a book written in the 1950s is based trad old literature
>>25191582Why do orders of magnitude more people know Tolkien than your picrel then? What do you think mythology means?
Tolkein fans expose themselves as immature retards by seeing a name that means bird that lives on moor and immediatly equating it with nigger sexual organs.They pretend to be based right wing trad LARPers yet when they see an actual traditional english name they start thinking about negroes
>>25191587>popularity equals mythologySo that means peaky blinders is a modern british mythology? Is James bond a british mythological hero? Is are Greggs sausage rolls a part of british mythology?Stupid fucking ESL
>>25191582Aurthurian shit is lame as fuck and English mythology is just Germanic mythology but gayer.Get rekt, tryhard.
>>25191591No. What do you think mythology means?I'm anglo American btw, my ancestors came from the Midlands in 1640 and mostly bred amongst other English people. Other than one shameful dalliance with a Dutch immigrant.
>>25191592The Tolkien fan reveals his true form as a latinx ESL who hates traditional english culture.>English mythology is just Germanic mythology but gayerThe English (and lowland scottish) are a Germanic people, ESL.
>>25191520>proseAnon… I…
>>25191597>English mythology is just Germanic mythology but gayer>The English (and lowland scottish) are a Germanic peopleThat's what I just fucking IMPLIED you goddamned idiot.
>>25191594Why do you Tolkiendrones pretend a hack work writen by a philologist has anything to do with english folklore?Guy of Warwick is an english myth. the lord of the rings isn't
>>25191597And Arthurian shit is 99% French cuck shit. LOTR is heavily inspired by old English and Old Norse texts, it's far more Germanic.
>>25191602I didn't say folklore, I said mythology. The Aeniad was *literally* commissioned fanfiction and yet also genuine mythology (eventually). Also are you samefagging lol
>>25191606*Aeneid
>>25191604Arthurian Mythology is not English. It is a pan-British mythology ultimately descending from Romano British myth which was then transported to Brittany, then to France, then to England.England actually has mythology. Guy of Warwick, Bevis of Hampton, Havelok the Dane. Even the Robin Hood ballads count. But you're unaware of those because you're a latinx who gets filtered by old literature.>LOTR is heavily inspired by old English and Old Norse texts, it's far more Germanic.It isn't. It's a philogist tradcucks take on Old English and Old Norse texts. Old English people glorified battle and warfare while Tolkien demonised it.
>>25191606You're coping and seething because you are incapable of reading texts like Guy of Warwick because you are an ESL>The Aeniad was *literally* commissioned fanfiction and yet also genuine mythologyTolkien Fanboys comparing their book written in the 1950s to ancient literature. Peak cope.Spenser's Faerie Queene actually has more in common with the aeneid than it does with lord of the rings
>>25191613Almost everything in Arthurian legend as most people know it came from the French. Go read the Welsh versions, they're almost unrecognizable. And again: I did not say "authentic folklore" I said "mythology". Obviously LOTR isn't folklore or based on it, except maybe Tom Bombadil if you squint (since he started as a bedtime story character for Christopher Tolkien, hence the same while helping his father would have thought of it in the way whoever wrote down Beowulf might have recalled hearing the poem recited as a child) >Old English people glorified battle and warfare while Tolkien demonised it.I don't think you've actually read lord of the rings lmao. The Rohirrim are typified using Old English directly and love violence and combat. They even genocide celt-analogues and annex some of their lands (iirc) after the battle of Helm's deep.
>>25191618We can tell that you haven't read anything you're talking about.
>>25191629I've read the Matter of England the Faerie Queene.You are an ESL who thinks a book written in the 1950s is "Mythology">>25191626>I don't think you've actually read lord of the rings lmao. The Rohirrim are typified using Old English directly and love violence and combat. They even genocide celt-analogues and annex some of their lands (iirc) after the battle of Helm's deep.I've read the Lord of the Rings multiple times. I dont' even think you've read it. If you did you'd know that Tolkien stated>“I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.”Which is a worldview antithetical to the Old English worldview. It's a worldview antithetical to English culture until at least the 1800s.Actual Mythological Epics are actually connected to the land and people they spring from. The Illiad is in ancient greece. The Kalevala is in Finland. Tolkien's LOTR may be set in the ancient past but for all intents and purposes it is a completely different world. A few vaguely Anglo Saxon horsemen (the Anglo Saxons did not ride horses into battle) and British villagers does not make it an English epic. It's morality is completely different from all other Epics. It is a 20th century Catholic englishman's morality, not the morality of ancient people.
>>25191635*The Matter of England AND the Faerie Queene
>>25191635Oh you're just a low functioning autist. Carry on tardraging then.The Illiad took place in Asia Minor btw, not Greece. And I want to say Beowulf was mostly in Denmark but I could be wrong, I haven't read it in a long time.
>>25191643Oh you're just an autistic ESL then.>The Illiad took place in Asia Minor btw, not Greece. And I want to say Beowulf was mostly in Denmark but I could be wrong, I haven't read it in a long time.Coastal Asia Minor was a part of Greek Civilisation for thousands of years and was inhabited by ethnic Greeks. Are you genuinely retarded? Do you think the turks were in Asia Minor at the time of Homer?
>>25191613This post smells like fermented cum.
>>25191085Hating anything is the equivalent of hating everything
>>25191076How do you feel about The Worm Ouroboros, OP?
>>25191649You genuinely are bad-autistic, everything you're saying is constrained by the retarded emotionally charged preconceptions (which you probably aren't even aware of) that are causing you screech the same schizo ESL accusation over and over again and argue in bad faith. It's not fun to discuss things with someone like that so I'm not going to engage with you much further.> Coastal Asia Minor was a part of Greek Civilisation for thousands of yearsHave you even read the Illiad? The Trojans are explicitly not Greek and the myths that fused to produce the Illiad predate Greek settlement of Ionia. Fucking dunning krugerite lol.
>>25191673You are genuinely an ESL who knows nothing about English mythology.Imagine pretending to know about English Mythology yet never even hearing of Guy of Warwick, Bevis of Hampton, Athelston, etc.>Have you even read the Illiad? The Trojans are explicitly not Greek and the myths that fused to produce the Illiad predate Greek settlement of Ionia. Fucking dunning krugerite lol.When did I ever state that mythological tales can't involve foreigners? The Mycaneans are the ancestors of the Greeks and by the time of Homer what is now Troy was solidly a part of Greek Civilisation, autistic retard.
>>25191691>Autistic repetition and hysterical doubling-down on inaccuraciesNo thanks
>>25191698I accept your concession, ESL.
>>25191085Beatles were about peace and love, Tolkien is a chud.
Why can’t you faggots just admit you like children’s lit and leave it at that, you fucking teaboo faggots.
This thread
People who genuinely cannot enjoy The Hobbit are literal bug people and I have no desire whatsoever to either associate with, listen to or emulate them in any manner whatsoever.
>>25191085The Beatles were the first big government-controlled band and should be hated.
>>25191618>>25191629>>25191635>>25191643newfags slapping each other with their flaccid dicks
>>25191085wtf I hate tolkein now?
>>25191085Tolkien hated The Beatles.
The criticism about escapism doesn't make any sense. Just because it has morally good characters and a happy ending doesn't mean it's more escapist than any other story. When I read books of Greek myths I was not rolling around in despair about Orpheus' wife or the fate of Oedipus. It just sounds like desperately wanting to be 2deep4u and pretending like uhh well MY book doesn't have elves so it's better
Oh look, a reddit thread on 4chan. Neat!
>>25191903>morally good
>>25192006>hits bong>dude....good is like...relative...or somethingwoooooooaaaaaahhhh
>>25192006>>Morally good
>>25191085>>25191087>>25191474>>25191852
Dem Beepholes got a few toe-tappins.. Not many, but a few.
>>25191085Probably the best bait I have seen on this site
>The Romantics thoroughly felt the blow the very belief in God suffered by the denial of the belief in spirits or ghosts, and sought to remedy the disastrous consequences not only through their reawakened fairy world, but finally, and particularly, through the “intrusion of a higher world"Tolkien was refuted before he even began.
>>25191460Jesus fuckin PSEUD
>>25191076oh, you noble englishmen. tolkein, the john mclaughlin of prose. all that time on equipment, preparation, image, mood: but he whose face gives no light shall never become a star, and he who spends too much time whittling must take care he does not find his arms too noodley to row
>>25192311>read LotR>characters are always coming up with songs like this was some Broadway musical
>>25192322i could barely get 100 pages in. as far as english prose is concerned, it's fucking boring. blake could say in three words what it took tolkein a whole book to not say
