I unironically believe Xenogears has the same depth of Brothers Karamazov. Tell me Fei isn't Alyosha, or that Solaris isn't the modern version of the Great Inquisitor. Ivan returns the ticket, Grahf destroys the theater, and Krelian reconstructs it.
>>25192407back to /vg/ faggot, lit is a 199 iq board
>>25192407Xenogears isn't even well-written by video game standards.
>>25192407FFVI is the only video game of literary merit.
>>25192407Why this elitism regarding the TV show medium? I unironically believe Frasier has the same depth of Brothers Karamazov. Tell me Frasier isn't Alyosha, or that Niles isn't the modern version of the Great Inquisitor.
>>25192407Why would you focus on the things that gaming does objectively worse (writing, world-building and so on) instead of the unique qualities inherent to that medium (interactivity, engaging gameplay)?Some of the best, most popular and well known games barely have any story. You don't need an elaborate story to play minecraft yet it will likely be a much more enjoyable experience compared to any narrative-focused game you could ever think of.>>25192412trvthnova
The issue I hold with fans of Xenogears (and, incidentally, Umineko) is that they seem to favour the idea over the execution. Both of these games are very ambitious and seem to carry some great ideas within them, but they both completely and utterly fail in their execution. Poor writing style, horrendous pacing, way too long for their own good. Xenogears on top of that has awful gameplay and its disc 2 is little more than a plot summary of the things the devs wanted to implement but lacked the time to do so.In contrast, literature is mostly the realm of highly polished writing, where every word, every comma has a specific function. Dostoevsky might be considered an exception, as he was often writing under the pressure of time and money, but he had a well-developed ear for speech patterns. Most of the great moments in Dostoevsky are told in dialogue, not in prose, and Nabokov recognised that when he said that Dostoevsky could've been Russia's greatest playwright.
>>25192432Where would /diy/ fall on this chart?
Um to get to xenosaga tech will require escaping the earth’s gravitational field to get to some obsolescent cybernetic collage visions boards from the 90s and I would reckon that ok a lot of the time if you are going to making a pit stop at blue heaven or the xenosaga library satellite you are already headed to the dxm planet’s smugglers moon to like get a ttrpg made or something like that
>>25192415this
>>25192432/po/ is definitely one of the outliers on our end. They just keep to themselves and craft their cute origami. Video game fans want so desperately to have their medium be taken seriously by people who value art as not to be seen as immature for liking them. So what do they do? They steal from artistic mediums, subsuming it into their own medium and ignorant fans will eat it up. Take the new game I see people raving about expedition 33, which has been celebrated for its rich storytelling among other things like its “amazing” visuals and music. I don’t often play video games but I find it dubious that the narrative has anywhere near the amount of thematic, philosophical, emotional human depth as something like The Sorrows of Young Werther; I doubt the music has the same mastery of craft and expertise you’d find in a Bach fugue or the visuals to be as resplendent as a classical painting. They think using art forms to enhance their product makes it art which is wrong. Perhaps there is art to a game, but it’s not going to be found in extraneous elements such as the aforementioned. Instead it would be found in the gameplay. The question is, are there any examples that apply? As I said, I’m not much of a video game player.
>>25192437Agreed, Dostoevsky’s talents lie not in his literature so much as his communication of ideas in a very humanly complex way. He’s not my favourite, but far be it from me to deny his greatness, as many unfortunately do these days. (maybe as a result of his increased popularity among younger people who may or may not have read his work; pretty vain if true)
>>25192432Giving /tv/ and /int/ way too much undeserved credit there.
>>25192407>i believe xenogears has the same depth>here are literal details that might be interpreted to be similarPlease gain a deeper appreciation for high literature before you claim video games, anime, and movies/tv are on the same level. And I say this as someone who got into literature by the gateway of video games and anime, and still harbors a fondness for the latter two.
>>25192432>>25193329This doesn’t make any sense, and is the equivalent of saying that only the prose really matters in reading, or that film is only good for cinematography. Any medium is capable of interesting writing, word building, characters, etc. I find it weird that people take such a myopic view towards gaming as a medium, but don’t do so for stories/characters/worlds of books, movies, tv shows, etc.
>>25193397You just don’t get it, The Lion King has the same artistic merit as Hamlet because it has a similar basic plotline
>>25193399Your bing bing wahoos will never be art.
>>25193399The quality of the prose and poetry are paramount in literature yes. But the fact that literature too, was conceived as primarily a medium to express ideas, philosophy or otherwise through language as well as storytelling through language; no other medium has ever reached the same heights as literature has when it comes to simply creating a well crafted narrative. Movies and tv shows are the same as video games in the sense that they rely on other artforms to reinforce the final product, though the art with that lies more in the camera and cinematography itself.
>>25193399The best thing about Paradise Lost isn’t story (it’s one we already know the outcome to) nor the didacticism, nor the character depth, nor the theosophy (though it’s definitely important, since it helps to understand). What is the best thing about PL? The poetry itself, that makes every single line spoken, narrated, described evoke feelings of awe in the reader as well as an education in the beauty of blank verse, which I thought little of until reading it. On top of this it is cerebral enough in its now seldom spoken language and descriptiveness that requires you to understand an older form of English to truly grasp.
>>25193399Video games are games, fundamentally they are about interacting with mechanics and overcome challenges. Tell me, if a novel came with a completely unrelated crossword puzzle that you had to solve before reading each chapter, would the reading of the novel be enhanced?A game with lofty ambitions for its story will have to compromise that by lowering the percentage of the game that is actually a game, unless it somehow marries the story into mechanics (western RPGs, or to a lesser extent something like cave story with different story outcomes based on in-game actions), or else makes the mechanics serve the story (visual novels are the prime example). In the middle you have jrpgs where you're reading a novel and in between chapters you have to do completely unrelated gameplay. Xenogears in particular has pretty awful gameplay even for a jrpg (as do most ps1 jrpgs). The "player" is left mashing buttons to grind through braindead and overlong combat sequences wondering; "surely this should have been an anime or a novel."The thing with film is, you wouldn't aim to be "novelistic" by having the majority of the story be delivered by text; it's similarly retarded for games to try to be novels or movies; they are at their best when they deliver their story (as much as possible) through the interactivity and mechanics.The attachment to other media is due, I think, to the same lack of creativity that keeps games from achieving the heights of the media it tries to imitate. Games still haven't really figured out how to tell a story entirely through gameplay quite the way composers found ways to tell stories entirely through instrumental music, so if you want to do it you'll have a lot of work ahead of you. Relying on text and cutscenes is a crutch that becomes its own handicap.
>>25192432/sci/sissies these litchuds are outscoring us....
>>25193400You know, it's quite pathetic to me that almost the entire "animation canon" if you will, the most celebrated and innovative works of animation ever made, are 1) retarded bugs bunny cartoons, pretty much the boomer version of algorithmic brainrot; or 2) dumbed-down fairy-tales made for children with talking animals.Aside from Japanese animation, of course, which is mostly aimed at teenagers
>>25193425No wonder the STEMcels are so deeply insecure.
>>25193329Video game music, especially back in the day, was genuinely good. Composers like Uematsu perhaps don't measure up to Bach, but they are meritous composers in their own right in a way that video game writers never have been. For the simple reason that video game developers had much better taste for who was good at composing music, and knew they couldn't just compose something "good enough" themselves.Most of the time the scenario in a game is written by people who are by profession programmers, artists, or, more recently people who are pretty much failed Hollywood writers (or failed anime writers in Japan I guess).The visuals obviously have to be compromised as well for the sake of communicating what's going on in the game, far more so than music, but there's some incredibly impressive artwork in games; maybe not in terms of artistic expression, but at least skill and style.
>>25193426Yeah, I hate it. Even as a child, I hated Disney and its hackneyed anthropomorphic fairy tales. Well, it’s beloved by grown adults who grew up with this slop mostly these days. I had a girlfriend who is exactly the kind of retard you’d expect, into shitty chick lit, awful music, awful everything. She loved Disney above everything, this love only exacerbated my hatred for it, and she was the one who told me that film is “an adaptation of hamlet”. Of course I thought nothing of that, she hadn’t read or if she had seen hamlet, I doubt she appreciated it or understood it. I never saw the movie anyway, she wanted me to watch it with her and I refused; ah, it feels good to be free of her. But from what I gather, the similarities between lion king and hamlet are extremely superficial since it’s about a vengeful prince and it has a happy ending or whatever. But I highly doubt a Disney film would be spoken in Shakespeare’s masterful style, nor would it explore the intricacies, the madness (or feigned madness) the sorrows, the erratic cruelty, the bitterness, depression, the entire psychological dilemma that Hamlet goes through. I just assume most animation fans who’re adults know nothing of country matters.
>>25193451Yeah there really isn't much; Shakespeare hardly invented "uncle murders king and usurps the throne, prince tries to get revenge" and that's about where the similarities to Hamlet end.I'd have loved a genuine animated adaptation of Hamlet, though, with perhaps a shorter script than the play but making up for it by leveraging the full potential of animation to convey all of it visually.
>>25192437>UminekoI hated this thing, a few weeb friends told me to check it out years ago because apparently it has many references to Dante; they hadn’t read the commedia so the folly is my own. Anyway, I actually got through it and I’ll admit it was a comfy mystery even if I’m not into the genre. But it turned into a really stupid shonen anime but with extra reddit. The writing was awful, the characters awful, the overall message, awful. It seems to be championed among those who haven’t read anything outside of manga for pre teens.
>>25192432>/x/ is lastSome bitter hylic made this. Truly reddit coded image.
>>25193479/tv/ never created a concept that led to the production of a Hollywood movie… /x/ did, that must require acumen of some sort at least.
>>25193421>as do most ps1 jrpgsI dunno anon, out of 3 PS1 RPGs (Xenogears, Vagrant Story, Valkyrie Profile) I'd say 2 had great gameplay, one I enjoyed more than many acclaimed JRPGs, including SMT 3/5. Xenogears is uniquely awful.>Games still haven't really figured out how to tell a story entirely through gameplay Dark Souls 1, Frostpunk, Lobotomy Corporation did IMO. Designers are experimenting with it. Arguably Silksong did too with elements like making the player perpetually broke (paid benches) and Bilewater being ten times worse than anything else in the game.
I haven’t played a video game since 1994 and I think it was sonic the hedgehog. They look far too daunting for me now with their realism and 3d environments.
>>25193451>>25193472Shakespeare in particular didn't come up with a single original plot. He took from Ovid, Plutarch, legends, myths, historical documents, or straight up stole from his contemporaries (plagiarist! people today would say). What he did was rewrite them, change details and scenes at his convenience, and he charged everything with his unique linguistic flair. AFAIK in the original Amleth story, the young prince trusts his father's ghost uncritically and immediately starts to concoct a plot again the king. In Shakespeare, Hamlet starts to wonder if the apparition is truly that of his father's, or if it's one from hell, sent to trick him and send him down the wrong path. Hence all the dawdling, deliberation, philosophising and attempts at verifying the truth. A famous Polish playwright examines the play from this very angle https://pl.wikisource.org/wiki/The_tragicall_historie_of_Hamlet,_Prince_of_Denmark_by_William_Shakespeare
>>25193517>Hamlet starts to wonder if the apparition is truly that of his father's, or if it's one from hell, sent to trick him and send him down the wrong path. Hence all the dawdling, deliberation, philosophising and attempts at verifying the truth.This is to me, what sets apart Shakespeare from all previous playwrights and age old stories he “stole” the plot from. Shakespeare was never about the plot to me, well, it does, inasmuch as the plot serves to provide a basis for Shakespeare to pen his brilliant character studies with some of the most poetic writing you’ll ever read. With Hamlet he took this basic premise and, using his own skill, as well as influence from his contemporaries and his own personal life, which at the time as we know wasn’t particularly ideal, elevated it to unreachable heights. Even today, the character of Hamlet remains more immortal, and more complex than many others inspired by him. I’ll take a look at the link, thanks anon.
I like Xenogears and it is a very good story but it also gets overly convoluted and tons of things did not need to exist as a "story". At the end of the day, it's still a video game
NEKKID LADY
>>25192407If you are alluding to Dostoevsky’s worst novels, then, indeed, I dislike intensely The Brothers Karamazov and the ghastly Crime and Punishment rigamarole. No, I do not object to soul-searching and self-revelation, but in those books the soul, and the sins, and the sentimentality, and the journalese, hardly warrant the tedious and muddled search. Dostoyevsky’s lack of taste, his monotonous dealings with persons suffering with pre-Freudian complexes, the way he has of wallowing in the tragic misadventures of human dignity – all this is difficult to admire. I do not like this trick his characters have of ”sinning their way to Jesus” or, as a Russian author, Ivan Bunin, put it more bluntly, ”spilling Jesus all over the place." Crime and Punishment’s plot did not seem as incredibly banal in 1866 when the book was written as it does now when noble prostitutes are apt to be received a little cynically by experienced readers. Dostoyevsky never really got over the influence which the European mystery novel and the sentimental novel made upon him. The sentimental influence implied that kind of conflict he liked—placing virtuous people in pathetic situations and then extracting from these situations the last ounce of pathos. Non-Russian readers do not realize two things: that not all Russians love Dostoevsky as much as Americans do, and that most of those Russians who do, venerate him as a mystic and not as an artist. He was a prophet, a claptrap journalist and a slapdash comedian. I admit that some of his scenes, some of his tremendous farcical rows are extraordinarily amusing. But his sensitive murderers and soulful prostitutes are not to be endured for one moment—by this reader anyway. Dostoyevsky seems to have been chosen by the destiny of Russian letters to become Russia’s greatest playwright, but he took the wrong turning and wrote novels.
>>25193755I’ll never get bored of seeing “ghastly rigmarole” used as derisive statement while also being true to Crime and Punishment. Though it’s not the only dosto novel that could apply. They each have their own flavour of ghastly rigmarole and I say this caring greatly for TBK.
>>25192407Sure OP you can have TBK theatrical melodramatic tripe.
>>25192432I feel like I distinctly remember /mlp/ placing alot higher and it causing some anal devastation years ago.But then again, this is a random chart with no source so who knows
>>25192407I like reading, but video games are way better than books in almost every aspect, the interactivity gives you a way better experience than any book can give you, also most book readers are absolutely insufferable assholes, show me one book that can give you an experience like playing Subnautica with your headphones on, late night and diving in the deep end, it's unmatched, but booktroons will say otherwise
>>25192407Subnautica, Outer Wolds, Inscryption, Void Stranger are better than pretty much every book ever made, the experience is unparalleled.
>>25196303>every book ever madeInteresting choice of words. You’ve not read a single book. Back to /v/ with you
>>25192432because they are insecure manchildren who know deep down they've wasted their lives with anesthetizing popcorn shlock. so they need to convince themselves some of these games have "literary sensibilities" to dupe people into believing their hobby has more in common with reading tolstoy or joyce, even though it's far closer to playing with action figures and baby rattles
>>25196297name me one game that handles race better than faulkner or baldwin
>>25193508everything about them is braindead simple, they handhold so much that even literal retards can figure them out. the only thing daunting about them is that they can be massive timesinks
>>25197891>tolstoy or joyceCrazy… they probably don’t even know who those two are. They think shit like Disco Elysium is the peak of (what they call) literature. I’ve never played that game, but I’ve seen screenshots and it’s Andy Weir tier slop.>>25192437Umineko is another lauded game that is nothing more than a shonen manga for trannies
>>25197900>Disco ElysiumI played it, it's a solid story with some highlights, but gamers have zero standards so of course something that's akin to a 7/10 novel is treated by those mouth breathers as LITERALLY PEAK FICTION lmao. I respect the fact the writers are fans of Andrei Bely and Vladimir Mayakovsky, but at the same time much of the game feels redundant if you've already read Bely and Mayakovsky.
>>25197909>LITERALLY PEAK FICTIONI hate seeing this term used to describe the sloppiest of slop (E33, One Piece, When They Cry) by a bunch of intellectually atrophied zoomers who would be bored to death if they had to read a single page even of something as simple and accessible as say, The Catcher in the Rye.
