>Christianity is perfect and divine>Christianity is also heavily influenced by Neoplatonism Logically, it would seem that Plato is stronger than God. How do Christians deal with this fact?
platonism laid the logical framework, hebrews supplied the mythical historical narrative to make it massively popularthey think the latter is what's REALLY important
>>25192900Christianity is just Platonic metaphysics and Aristotlian ethics with a Jewish rabbit middleman.
>>25192907What? Judaism came before Plato and also they hate Christianity
>>25192913Rabbi*>>25192907The historical narrative is complete hugwash, exodus didn't happen and the jews were just a bunch a southern tribe of pheonecia, demonic child sacrifices included which the mythologies cover up
>>25192914Judiasm as we know is entirely a construct of the consequences of the destruction of the second temple, the near extermination of Judaism that came with it and the scattering of the Jewish people and the subsequent rabbinic and Talmudic traditions. And as it just happens, Christianity arose at the same time entirely dressed up with Greek metaphysics and virtue ethics, down to the resurrection narrative from the Myth of Er, but with a zombie jew to guilt trip you into a slave morality.
>>25192913>>25192924the question is why Jewish rabbit middleman was so popular. Because it was. There seems to have been some kind of greco-roman fascination with the semitics, wheither that be egyptian or Judean. Think they were highly impressed by thier autistic record keeping and tradition of prophecies.>>25192900wouldnt plato be the messanger here interpreting the world of perfect forms (God) rather than being superior to it? Dont think you got your ideas straight, Plato isnt a messiah figure, but a herald a la Moses.
Neoplatonism is an annihilationist bug religion no different to Vedanta. Christianity is far superior.
>>25193045Did you know Hitler waged war on Christianity too
>>25193045Go read platos republic 616a, ignorant fucktard.
>>25192941We do have records of pre-second temple destruction judaism and their messianic prophecies. They are in the Bible.
>>25192941So you basically admitting that Christianity is a strong to keep the masses, why would it be le bad if someone just put the jew aside as it has been for over 1500 years?
>>25193045>Christianity is far superior.Neoplatonism and Vedanta revolve around attaining the superabundant plenitude of the One and remaining as that perfect One, which is a superior state of eternal existence than eternal subservience to and dependence upon another.Both Vedanta and Neoplatonism, being undistilled Aryan metaphysical truth, acknowledge that any kind of dependence is ultimately an imperfection and thus teach a path to complete spiritual & metaphysical perfection that doesn’t depend on any bronze-age tribal diety who got retconned as some kinda bi-polar Super-Zeus
>>25192900Christianity begins *before* Neoplatonism. Origen was an older contemporary of Plotinus. Neoplatonism is just Christianity that has been paganized, pulling from some Jewish wisdom too (Philo was centuries before Plotinus).The core ideas of Plato central to Christianity are in the Hebrew prophets before him as well. This is why plenty of antique Greeks speculated that Plato had learned from the Jews when he was in Egypt.
>>25192941You don't know what you are talking about. 400ish years before Republic was even written Isaiah had already prophesied the martyrdom of Christ, and Daniel and the Psalmist prophesied his resurrection and coming glory. Not to mention the the new testament reiterates themes from the old testament but relating it to Greek and roman audiences. You can make the argument that zoroastrianism may have influenced the foundation of the Bible, but neoplatonism didn't come until nearly 200 years after the death of Christ with the gospels being finished over 100 years before, and Paul's first letters within years of Christ's death.
>>25193256None of that hogwash was written down in a systematic manner till after the temple was destroyed, and Plato preceded Christianity by 400 years. Jesus was nothing but a rebel against the powers to be who then projected all their mystery religion symbols onto him after killing him to create a platonic slave religion for the masses. Worked like a charm.
>>25193145Well that's the point, you can just cut the Jewish middleman out by reading and learning from the ancient Greeks. Doesn't come with a life denying guilt complex that way too.
>>25193277Again, you don't know what you are talking about. You claim that Jesus is a rehash of the Myth of Er from Republic, but the prophecies of Jesus predates Plato by hundreds of years. It is even possible that Plato and Aristotle where influenced by Judaism. What about neoplatonism and Greek metaphysics do you find to have been directly lifted by Christianity? Be specific, because I don't believe you have actually read any Aristotle or Plato, let alone the Bible.
>the prophecies of Jesus predates Plato by hundreds of years.Aren't those just interpretations of the ot which didn't happen for many years after it was written
>>25193332Everything is down stream of the Egyptians anyway. Plato was obviously influenced by them and the jews never came up with anything original nor true to begin with. All their OT myths are a hodgepodge of stuff they stole from other cultures and specially from their time during Babylonian exile. The myth of Er itself is predated by the Osiris resurrection myth, and Christianity clearly was also influenced by the Dionysian mystery religions of the time which had much the same motifs. Trying to act like I haven't read any Plato, Aristotle, or the bible when the NT blatantly intertwined the metaphysical Absolute God of the former and the virtue ethics of the latter is laughable. The myth of Er is the Christian judgement after death to a T, only with the addition of reincarnation for everyone that doesn't get sent to Tartarus, and Jews didn't and still don't have a concept of an afterlife hell or Tartarus. Odds are the NT was written by Hellenized jews (Do I need to remind you the NT was originally written in Greek?) who were utterly seething over the temple's destruction, which really shows up in the book of revelation which is nothing but an omnicidal revenge fantasy against the Roman empire.
>>25192900What makes Christianity super duper special is Jesus. He is supposed to have been a man who walked the earth and had God in his flesh. He makes the brilliant ideas of the greeks a historical meat-space reality that only useful jews could do.
>>25193430In other words, the Ancient Greeks developed a profound understanding of philosophy and logic (logos) but lacked a proper conception of history as a unfolding divine drama or a coherent linear narrative. Contrasts that with the Biblical narrative, which views history as the development of Logos over time, ultimately culminating in the incarnation of Christ. The Bible (specifically the Old Testament and the Jewish tradition prior to the Gospel of John) lacked the formal, philosophical vocabulary and conceptual framework of "Logos" that the Greeks possessed. The jews needed the greeks and the greeks needed the jews.
>>25193371>All their OT myths are a hodgepodge of stuff they stole from other cultures and specially from their time during Babylonian exileThe Torah was written a thousand years before the exile to Babylon, retard. Judges and Samuel where written 500 years before.>The myth of Er itself is predated by the Osiris resurrection myth, and Christianity clearly was also influenced by the Dionysian mystery religions of the time which had much the same motifs.Great now I know where you get your stupidity from. The movie Zeitgeist makes a bunch of bullshit claims not backed by any actual written history or myths. If you follow the sources cited by the movie and look into where they got their sources, you will find "Works Sited: My Ass."Or you are reading Manny P Hall's larping bullshit.Go ahead, idiot. Tell us how Osiris is proto-jesus. Osiris is reassembled by Isis to be god of the underworld. That is about the closest you will get to a comparison to Jesus as they don't have anything in common.And stop with your bs about the math of er. You didn't read republic or the bible. If you did you would know that in the book of Job he talks about hoping to meet God once he is parted from his flesh, and the psalms talk about being brought saved from the underworld, characters like Enoch being taken up directly to God, and praying for the dead in the apocrypha. Yes, the Old Testament does talk about afterlife with the earliest example being in the Torah.And afterlife in Er and the new Testament are completely opposite. Republic makes the case that people reincarnate with morally good people having wisdom to choose better reincarnation prospects while morally depraved make choices in the afterlife reflecting their bad works and reincarnate poorly. In Christianity, good works doesn't get you into heaven, lest people boast it was by their own virtue. Good works are a sign of life saving faith, but they are from a regenerated heart turned by the lord. The entire Bible is just story after story of shifty people getting chosen by God anyway as he literally polishes shit into diamonds. You don't know what you are talking about. Why do you come to /lit/ when you don't actually read?
>>25193471Seething kike
>>25193474Your momma
where in plato does it say everyone deserves forgiveness though, that a god died for human sins, these are the foundations of christianity and are what made it so popular to normies who worshipped harsher deities
>>25193102And he lost cause Nazis are bugmen
>>25192900The only decent parts of Christianity were poached from the Greeks.
Churches use sciences of architecture developed before their religionOh nooo
>>25193332Please, please shut up jewlover. All the "prophecies" in the bible are just vaguely worded enough to get gullible retards to believe in them. If the prophets were truly given a glimpse into he future they would give actual information instead of vague "descendant of the line of David" type nonsense. Any jew can claim to be the messiah by claiming royal heritage, or his followers can just post hoc claim that. All the gospels were written decades after the alleged event and aren't reliable historical information. The old testament is also filled with historical inaccuracies, and outright propaganda. Please provide actual archaeological information about events in the past and not scripture.
>>25192900>Logically, it would seem that Plato is stronger than God. How do Christians deal with this fact?that's a metaphysical post-hoc fallacy.(Neo)-Platonism was a reaction to the bad Hellenistic Theology of his time; his critique of shitty lesser gods/daemons.Hence his imperative to find "The One", the Logos, the Bridge between the Physical and the Metaphysical that Man (The Real) can relate to the Divine (The Ideal).The Greeks philosophers found this One in Jesus Christ and thus the Greeks as a nation converted to Christianity and switched from producing secular Philosophers to Theologians following God's Logic/Logos/Christ's Way.
>>25193915The earliest gospel was written within 40 years of Christ, with the oldest being completed within 70. Some of Paul's letters where written even sooner than that. Keep in mind this is taking into account that these are based off of earliest found manuscripts. Theses first and second hand accounts of Christ are backed by further sound historical evidence of early church fathers who where contemporaries of Peter, John, and others. To put this in context, the earliest manuscripts supporting the existence of Plato are from within 1000 years of his death, while with Christ we have only mere decades. No one will blame you for not believing in the supernatural elements of Christ, but only a total smooth brained retard such as yourself doubts his authenticity considering he is the most well documented individual in ancient history.>Muh archeology Samaria, Megiddo, Jericho, Beersheba, Lachish and many other cities where thought to be myths until the actual sites where found and matched historical evidence of many claims in Judges, Samuel, and Kings.Taylor PrismHezekiah's TunneDan SteleCurrency found that verifies descriptions of transactions in GenesisDead Sea Scrolls which shows the accuracy of manuscripts over a thousand year period.That's only naming a few for you. The Bible is a unique work because of how accurately it describes geological conditions and social settings of its time. It doesn't seem to fall into the "Noble Lying" trappings of neoplatonism, a concept definitely borrowed from Egypt who has revised their own history many times over thousands of years to blot out any embarrassing events that don't line up with Pharaoh sponsored propaganda.When Pilate cynically asks the question "what is truth?" He is being rhetorical. He understood fully the neoplatonic concept of "The Noble Lie", and that truth is something that can be sacrificed for "the greater good," aka what is more convenient. But truth and "facts" aren't the same thing. You obviously don't hang your convictions up on facts, otherwise what you believe in would be shattered by merely finding some old coins and scratches on a stone in the desert. And that is why even after giving you the archeological evidence that you asked for it is just going to cause you to shift your goal post to something else, like "where is Noah's ark" or something like that. You ask for facts, but you don't deal in facts yourself. Hence this thread where you obviously have never actually looked into any of the "facts" you believe in. So friend, what is "truth?" It's just your own confirmation bias. You are a hypocrite if you think you are any different then any other bible thumper or cult initiate.
>>25193182Actually intelligent post. Of course it got completely ignored.
>>25193256Jews practicing midrash on a bunch of older vague mystical text and telling you to just trust them is not the same as jesus being "prophesied" long ago. Its all semitic mental illness.
>>25194438Maybe, maybe not. If Psalm 22:16 talks about piercing of hands and feet and I say it is prophetic and you say it is contemporary to king David, there isn't much contextual meat to grapple with other than what we believe. That's why I didn't pick that battle. Pearls before swine, I suppose. Pick the battles you know you can win, fren.Interesting thing about psalm 22: it was written about a thousand years before Christ. The Romans didn't start crucifying people until around 3bc, and so David's hands and feet being pierced, and garments divided, don't seem to be relevant details to his position at the time. Begs the question; why write those details, and who was it written for? Maybe the psalmist is schizo. Maybe he was a prophet. Who knows?
>>25194004Interesting looking book. Is it just we wuz messiah and sheeeit ching chong edition?
>>25194563>The Romans didn't start crucifying people until around 3bcbhahahahaahahahahahaha
>>25194563> Psalm 22:16 talks about piercing of hands and feetI don’t think it does. It’s more something like “like a lion my hands and my feet”
>>25195242Christians lying again as usual
>>25195242>>25195247You know, you could have just looked it up before looking retarded.Psalm 22 16-18Dogs surround me, a pack of villains encircles me; they pierce[e] my hands and my feet.17 All my bones are on display; people stare and gloat over me.18 They divide my clothes among them and cast lots for my garment
>>25195242it is piercing at least in the Greek and Latin(21:17 in their numeration), ὤρυξαν < ὀρύττω and foderunt < fodio
>>25195227The romans where late to the game on crucifixion. They got it from degenerate Carthaginians. By the time Jesus came on the scene it was in peek popularity, but they had not been doing it for very long in the grand scheme of things. Either way, people where not getting crucified in Judea in the time of king david and would be for hundreds of years.
>>25194125The oldest substantial New Testament manuscript is a tiny fragment of John (P52), dated paleographically to roughly 125–175 CE (or possibly a bit earlier/later). Other early fragments (like P66, P75) are from the late 2nd or early 3rd century. The first complete New Testament manuscripts (Codex Sinaiticus, Codex Vaticanus) are from the 4th century (~300+ years after the events). There are no 1st-century New Testament manuscripts, and claims of any from the 1st century remain highly disputed or unaccepted by mainstream paleographers.
>>25193440>The jews needed the greeks and the greeks needed the jewsIn other words, cultural exchange is vital for human development and flourishing
>>25193593Go back to your catamite, Costin.
>>25195357Yeah all that human development and flourishing between the third and thirteenth centuries.
>>25195443Why fix the thousand year of Christ when it was perfect?
>>25192900>>25192907>>25192913Once you realize that Christianity is a greek religion, and not a semitic one, everything makes way more sense.The next step is to realize thatProtestantism was a reactionary movement to make Christianity feel more like the semite apocalyptic cult that existed in the first century. Hence why protestants are increasingly more philosemitic and american evangelicals are essentially a apocalyptic jewish-israeli cult at this point.
>>25195751The judiazers were the first heretics of the church (Acts 15) and the prots are no different.
>>25195769>judiazerNeed I remind you Saul and Jesus were both jews and their ministry was all jews
>>25192900>expecting christfags to know or care about their own religion's history
>>25195771Paul preached against judaizers constantly. It lead to his arrest in Jerusalem.
>>25193182>This is why plenty of antique Greeks speculated that Plato had learned from the Jews when he was in Egypt.Interesting. Does there exist any concrete records of anything pertaining to this, beyond speculation? Not that I doubt the veracity of it, just curious if I can find any more information on this; it would be remiss to assume that it’s complete bullshit considering it would make quite a bit of sense.
>>25195802Plato frequently referred to the people, traditions, and dialogues that influenced his work. He never mentioned the jews.
>>25195802It comes from St Augustine. Plato was a strong influence on him and he borrowed some of Platos concepts that he used to explain Christian concepts. He suspected that Plato may have been familiar with early Jewish writings because certain concepts mirrored each other closely.Too tired to think of a synonym for concept. 14 hours at work today and my brain feels cooked.
>>25195924Augustine got the timeline fucked up, like he got theology fucked up. The fact he was canonized and help up to this day as some great christian apologist is pathetic.
>>25192900>>25192907>>25192913Sub 100 IQsI won't be reading the rest of the thread
>>25195937I don't know what is more cringe; newatheists or the dingus who posts in a thread just to say he isn't going to be in it.
>>25192907Yes, they liked his noble lie concept and ran with it.>>25192914If you trust the system of "noble" liars instead of archaeological evidence.
>>25193135>They are in the Bible.You mean the Tanakh (ie the Torah+ which has several conflicting versions, especially prior to the Council of Jamnia in 90 CE) or are you implying that the thing that wasn't finalized until well after the fall of the temple is definitive proof of what happened centuries beforehand?
>>25196077What conflicting versions from before 90 AD are you talking about? Are you talking about specific books that were removed? If so, which books? Or are you talking about scripual inconsistencies that where edited? If so, can you give examples of edits that where made?
>>25192900>Christianity is also heavily influenced by NeoplatonismBut it's not. Christian theology might be, but most of that theology is bad anyway.
>>25196077The council of Jamnia didn't exclude any books that were already canonical by that point. They debated removing song of songs but determined that it should stay. Also, the discovery of the dead sea scrolls proved that scripture had not been edited. The only significant changes over a thousand year period were spelling and grammar errors.
>>25193471Do you not have a single good faith bone in your body? Firstly, Judaism was by an large an oral tradition until after the 2nd temple, with Mishnah being the oldest fully written constellation in 2nd century century, with dead sea scrolls being only other older written artifacts, which were made after the time of Plato anyway. Secondly, I haven't watched a second of Zeitgeist and haven't read a world of Hall, so all of that is just a giant strawman. You also just flat out denied the resurrection portion of the Osiris myth that predates myth of Er and Christianity, and ignore entirely the widening consensus that the Eluysian and Dionysus deeply influenced the first Christians and their cultural milieu. Thirdly, I didn't say Judiasm doesn't have an afterlife myth, I said it doesn't have a concept of hell, which the Greeks did and Christianity does, and the myth of er details that tyrants get skinned in purgatory before thrown into tartarus. On top of this, you ignore my contradistinction between Platonisn and Christianity in that the formers afterlife does end in reincarnation, but otherwise it's the exact same in that you are judged upon your virtue and vicefulness, with the righteous witness the celestial spheres and the dawned undergoing 1000 fold experience of the suffering they inflicted on earth before reincarnation on both sides. Only the worse of the worse get send to hell. This all the same in Christianity only without the reincarnation and either eternal salvation or damnation. And the distinction between Greek good works and Christian faith is central, because for the Greeks it was through our rational faculty as animated by the Logos that we can know right from wrong and become virtuous agents, where as with Christianity you need to kowtow to a ghostly jew that entirely guilt trips you into a phony faithful meekness. A Jewish middleman plain and simple. Its obvious you're a Christian and just don't want to come with grips that Christianity came from very suspect historical origins and authors who graphed unto hellenic culture their own Jewish take of the old resurrection myth to wage cultural warfare against rome
>>25197538Phone auto word selection butchered this. Also forgot to include that mentioning Job or Pslams is completely besides the point when I didn't say judiasm don't have an afterlife idea.
>>25195681It sucked
Plato no, but Pythagoras remains undefeated.Math wins. All gods bow to math or they are false.
