>>25216919
People who use commie buzzwords like that are a privileged class of midwits too dumb to know they're privileged.

>>25216919
The Marxian use of the term makes less sense than the incel use of it (alienation is when you wageslave so that sexhavers can have sex on your behalf while you remain a depressed virgin)

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>>25216919
Yes. In fact you will see hardcore chuds repeat Marx almost verbatim without even realizing it.

Anyways, he more or less says a worker is alienated when he:
>does not own the product
>does not direct his own work
>has reduced capacity to perform free creative work
>is related to other people as economic rivals rather than as cooperative creators

>>25216947
Because Marx himself isn't necessarily left-wing. You can hold all his opinions and still be against feminism, multiculturalism, etc., which is what the left actually is.

>>25216954
>the left is the new left

>>25216947
>>25216954
I don't hate Marx per se, but Marxism is more or less better taken as an ethical practice rather than some kind of dogma to adhere to

>>25216919
>Was Marx right
No. /thread

>>25216964
Marx's entire philosophy is built on class-interests rather than individualism

>>25216967
yeah he was left. what a retard

>>25216947
>>does not own the product
>>does not direct his own work
>>has reduced capacity to perform free creative work
>>is related to other people as economic rivals rather than as cooperative creators
That's ironically all true about the economic systems of the so-called communist countries with the last point just replaced with "socialist emulation"

>>25216985
sounds like they weren't very communist according to Marx, then.

>>25216976
ethics isn't always individual centered though.

>>25216993
It's individually performed

>>25216994
yeah but see, there's this thing called society....
humans don't live a vacuum.

>>25216919
Alienation is the only thing Marx is universally agreed to be right about, even by anti-marxist academics

>>25217065
That would be historical materialism

I really need the septic tank digging company to be free to perform creative work. Backhoe ballet.

>>25216919

He was mostly right about alienation. Think about how you are surrounded by 100s of commodities in your own house but are completely alienated from the people whose labour made those commodities.

Concurrently you are also alienated from the people who use the commodity your labour built.

Only under capitalism is it possible for a man to live in a two room apartment. Have no social connections whatsoever, just go to work, make money, consoom and repeat.

>>25216947
Nobody gives a shit about any of that. What a stupid criticism. He ended up being wrong about literally everything.

>>25216919
He was prescient enough to understand that things like "justice" are claptraps used by the bourgeoisie to trick the masses but he still fell for Hegelian tripe such as "alienation". He dedicated a whole book making fun of other Hegelians but he never escaped the Hegelian prison.

>>25217140
>He was mostly right about alienation. Think about how you are surrounded by 100s of commodities in your own house but are completely alienated from the people whose labour made those commodities.
Who cares? Why does that matter at all? I've never thought about that once in my life and it couldn't matter less to me
>Concurrently you are also alienated from the people who use the commodity your labour built.
Again, I could not possibly care less. So what?
>Only under capitalism is it possible for a man to live in a two room apartment. Have no social connections whatsoever, just go to work, make money, consoom and repeat.
No, that's possible under any miserable system. And has nothing to do with economics. That's a social problem (not caused by economics, unless you want to argue the West pre ww2 was not capitalist.)

Alienation is probably the weakest part of Marxism, it's completely nebulous and unquantifiable
the idea that backbreaking, monotonous labour will somehow become fulfilling because you now "own your labour" is really kind of just silly

>>25217194
>I've never thought about that once in my life
I didn't either until engaging with Marxist thought pointed it out and it became obvious to me.

>Why does that matter at all?
As long as man is alienated from society he will always be subject to alien forces he himself cannot understand. Call it God, call it fate, call it free hand of the market. Alienation won't tell you why your boss laid you off, but it explains why you don't understand the forces that decide your fate.

>No, that's possible under any miserable system. And has nothing to do with economics. That's a social problem
Economics itself is social. Capitalism induces alienation by replacing actual human connection for economic activity with market exchange of commodities and money. This alienates people from each other. This is the only reason you can live the life of a social recluse and just work and consoom without forming genuine human connection. This was not possible in any other time in history or any other system.

>>25216919
He was right pointing it out, except that it's a good thing. I don't want to "identify" with the products of my labor, and I don't want economic exchanges to be bound up in the personal, like in some primitive tribes where everyone knows you, what you like, what your habits and your hang-ups are, or among peasants that would lynch you for being atypical.
"Alienation" is, contrary to Marx' armchair seething about it, a move away from the animalistic state that needs immediate relation to everything, to the properly human, as in the realization of higher reason.

>>25216919
Alienation is literally what chuds and incels bitch about all day long.

>>25217324
Liberals getting attached to their alienation is something I predicted. What I did not predict was one self aware enough to acknowledge that.

In any case, you will never not be an animal. You will never not be a social creature. Essentially you will never escape your species being.

I think it was in "The German Ideology" where Marx criticises the false constructs born from "higher reason" , like the "egoistic MAN"

>>25217286
It should be no surprise that the unfalsifiable parts of Marx's corpus are the only parts that can be salvaged and put to use elsewhere, rescued from their progenitor's invalidation

>>25216991
based manifesto reader

>>25217355
>In any case, you will never not be an animal. You will never not be a social creature. Essentially you will never escape your species being.
No, one will never escape, but distancing or, if you prefer, alienating ourselves from it is what we have been doing since the beginning of civilization and all its "unnatural" institutions, like bureaucracy, currency (an abstract medium of exchange), writing, formal schooling, formalized judicial procedure (instead of gut-instinctual mob punishment) etc etc.

There's a thing all shithole countries have in common, namely the very non-alienatory nature of their corruption: one can always come to "an understanding", one can always, in a very comfy and human way, bend the rules in exchange for money or favors.
It takes some autistic insistence on rules and formalities to build a thriving society, in other words, it takes alienation.

>>25216919
I feel less alienated from my work as a tradesman than i did most of my life. Both labor and product.

If i feel alienated from social conformity at work it's probably more relative to luck of the draw. No way communism can keep me from that. If anything quite the opposite.

I think more now and i feel i understand people better and feel more connected with my species than ever because i learned to understand people.

Alienation seems relative to personal experience imo

>>25217302
None of the socialist states solved alienation because in essence it's a problem of all industrialized societies and not only capitalist ones

>>25217194
Militant midwittery

>>25217399
>all its "unnatural" institutions, like bureaucracy, currency (an abstract medium of exchange), writing, formal schooling, formalized judicial procedure (instead of gut-instinctual mob punishment) etc etc.

And what do you think these are expressions of? Alienation itself is described as the "self alienating tendency of man". You are right in describing it as a "distancing". It's not the schooling or the writing that seperates us from animals. It's labour itself, of which everything else is an emergent form. And no one is getting away from the reality of socially necessary labour. Man is alienated only insofar as labour is alienated.
>There's a thing all shithole countries have in common, namely the very non-alienatory nature of their corruption: one can always come to "an understanding", one can always, in a very comfy and human way, bend the rules in exchange for money or favors.
It takes some autistic insistence on rules and formalities to build a thriving society, in other words, it takes alienation.

Both are borne of the same source. To think that first world people do not engage in humane compromises is absurd. They simply live in a state of alienating themselves from the true brutality of their nature because they have exported that brutality to the third world.

>>25217596
That is true. It is also true that none of the socialist states ever moved beyond capitalistic base relations among it's constituents. Now you might be conflating industrial societies with capitalism itself. And you may not be entirely wrong in that. It's hard to imagine what industrialisation beyond capitalism would truly look like. But as of now capitalism and industrialisation are pretty much two sides of the same coin.

People naturally engage in work when they are not alienated from their labor. People will spend time and money doing crafts, hunting, etc. in their spare time entirely out of their own volition, simply because it is satisfying to them.

But the human brain has a problem with degrees of separation. It's hard to see how what you do will affect people you have never met. It's hard to even see how what you will do will extend beyond your visible sight range.

This is why it is very hard for most people to beat a guy to death with their bare hands, but very easy to pull a trigger. Easier still to push a button and not even see your handiwork. Even easier for a general to send millions to their deaths by giving an order.

It gets worse though. When you are not the sole person responsible for an action, things are even less clear. And when it affects even more people, especially when they are not outright killed or maimed, things are almost totally opaque. A businessman will think nothing of polluting a lake that supplies water to multiple states. A politician will not even consider that their policy will lead to death and suffering for tens of millions of people. A worker will not think much of making a component that is eventually used in a missile targeting system.

This extends to labor. If you cannot see the end goal of your work, it is hard to feel that it is valuable. The further away the end user is from you, the harder it is to calculate the final impact of your work.

>>25216919
Alienation in the original Marxist sense isn't supposed to be normative.
It's descriptive like >>25216947 says. That said I disagree with the general analysis. I don't see why the socialist "democratic" economy is any less alienating than the capitalist. At least capitalism has the bourgeoisie, so someone isn't alienated at least.
Anything more advanced than artisanal capitalism is alienating

>>25216958
The left is what it is, which is fags and womem and foreign scabs

>>25217814
>This is why it is very hard for most people to beat a guy to death with their bare hands, but very easy to pull a trigger. Easier still to push a button and not even see your handiwork. Even easier for a general to send millions to their deaths by giving an order.
This is retarded. It's just physically easier to shoot people than physically beating them to death. Many people are sadistic, but most people are lazy and risk-averse.
People also don't do hobbies for the good of da community. People do hobbies for themselves and their friends and family. You don't learn music or painting as a public service. You do it for yourself.

>>25217855
>...for the good of da community. People do hobbies for themselves and their friends and family
That's literally what a community is bro

>>25217844
The bourgeoisie are themselves alienated because the commodity does not come out of their own labour. They are subject to the same forces of market exchange and the isolation resulting from the alienating nature of private property. They do have a nominal freedom in the liberal sense (but so does the worker to some extent)

>You don't learn music or painting as a public service. You do it for yourself.
Both of these are social activities.

>>25217855
>>25217875

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>>25217875
What if everyone just has a lot of sex and resolves the contradictions of capitalism that way??

>>25217875
The fact that music and art are social doesn't mean that they're altruistic or democratic. Art is tribal and elitist. It's a way of projecting yourself individually. You do it to raise yourself above the community, not to elevate the community itself.
Why wouldn't the bourgeoisie want to be alienated from labour if they still get to enjoy the fruits of labour? Isn't that the ideal, to get the fruits of labour without the work?

>>25216985
Not to indulge in the le true communism hasn't been tried meme but all those nations were in fact just socialist, and socialism still plays by the dictates of the techno-capital machine. It just removes private ownership and upper class interest from the equation, so while the work and conditions can and do result in alienation, it can be more rationally driven and equitable, and if you're still a bleeding heart communist the goal is to developthe system towards communist post scarcity (in theory).

>>25217916
Call it whatever you want. The fact remains that you are doing it for the social validation of other people. This goes for all human activity. It's almost always done for other people. Especially in a complex society with complex division of labour

The idea that you are doing it for yourself (an absurd meaningless notion) is just your alienation talking. Your labour ultimately benefits other people, it's just that you don't feel that way because you get paid for it so it "seems" like you are doing it for "yourself".

This is EXACTLY how market exchange causes alienation.

>>25217699
>Alienation itself is described as the "self alienating tendency of man"
Yes, and I'm saying that's a civilizing tendency and not something that needs to be abolished in a revolution of our system of production.
>It's labour itself, of which everything else is an emergent form. And no one is getting away from the reality of socially necessary labour. Man is alienated only insofar as labour is alienated.
I do not disagree, but I wonder what critique is left after you generalize the concept so much it becomes a shorthand for "what people tend to do in any organized society"?
Marxists seem to posit some paradisal primordial state where we had "genuine connection" to each other and our labour was immediately gratifying. Pretty sure those ideas are spooks meant to be emotionally evocative. But even if not, I'll gladly sacrifice some of that for the boons of civilization. Can't have your cake and eat it, and all that...

>They simply live in a state of alienating themselves from the true brutality of their nature because they have exported that brutality to the third world.
Brutality is the human, and in fact primate, default, and didn't need any imposition from outside. The real miracle is the abandonment of brutality by the enforcement of civilized norms - again, alienation from our nature, a good thing.

>>25217935
Social validation is selfish.

>>25216964
>hmm should i pull the lever that will kill a single person instead of 5... c+v=s says not to...

>>25217855
>It's just physically easier to shoot people than physically beating them to death.
I'm not talking about physically you fucking retard. Autists should be killed. By this I mean I am willing to beat them to death with my bare hands.

>>25217972
My point is that the physical ease is more relevant than the emotional element. If killing was effortless and there was no risk of individual or state retribution, it would happen a lot more just due to the easiness of it. Some would kill for pleasure, more would kill for wealth, power, jealousy, etc.

>>25216947
it's my belief that chuds are basically the true left, and there has been a lot of work to confuse and misdirect people.

How is a group of powerless working class people with an axe to grind against the rich, in any way "the right"? That doesn't make sense.

>>25218099
The original aristocracy was a holy thing.

>>25217972
You sound upset

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>>25217916
>Art is tribal and elitist. It's a way of projecting yourself individually. You do it to raise yourself above the community, not to elevate the community itself.
Bro we have no idea who painted the murals in ancient buildings, they didn't care to attach their names because the whole point was to make their art seem divine and aloof from the human world
Modern art "elitism" only began with Renaissance individualism onwards

>>25217921
They pretty much just imported technocratic management techniques from Ford and Taylor in America but removed private ownership from the equation and replaced it with Gosplan, and then failed to improve on that substantially for 60 years

>>25216919
I'm not a communist, but it is correct that devoting your life to producing a product or service that you don't use or need, and alienated from the realities of suffering required for the products that you do use and don't need, like any western luxury, is soulless and hollow.

>>25218099
Chuds are not leftists because they want some form of petite bourgeois socialism. They are still anti-capitalists.

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>>25218324
>Modern art "elitism" only began with Renaissance individualism onwards
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemiunu
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enheduanna

>>25218335
It's work. How was planting grains so you wouldn't starve so much better? Work has always been a shitty but necessary part of life. The parts that matter happen outside of work, relationships and such.
Marx is criticizing something that just doesn't matter. At worst people compartmentalize, punch the clock then go live their lives. This is so far from being the most burning, necessary question. It just doesn't matter. Back when Marx wrote, all his ideas hadn't been completely falsified. Factories employed most people. Some of these things were not completely absurd and pointless notions. Today though, there's no reason to entertain any of this. It just has nothing to do with real life whatsoever. It was a bunch of guesses that ended up wrong and irrelevant.

>>25218343
Both of those figures are royalty (the former a vizier, the second a literal princess)
Modern art elitism is about the supposed creation of "art for art's sake" (but really just for money)

>>25218343
>>25218354
And on why being royalty is relevant, the ancients considered them gods and exalted literally anything they did including the Phraoah jacking off into the Nile to ensure a good harvest with his coom

>>25218359
>>25218354
Modern art elitism is a natural extension of ancient art elitism. In the ancient world, the nobility took credit for all the art in their realm. They were the artist. In Medieval times, God was the sovereign and all art was to glorify him and he was credited for the art. Renaissance Humanism finally gave credit to the artist for the art that they made and allowed art to be a creative channel for the individual rather than the state or the church.

>>25218345
I unironically think work and life would be way better gardening and doing carpentry and whatnot then sitting around campfires and dancing and stuff than working in cubicles and sterile light all your life with your television and occasional vacation

>>25218404
You mean sitting around campfires with no electricity, medicine, plumbing etc? Because to have those things some people are going to need actual adult jobs beyond woodworking.

>>25218367
Yes and art transitioned from being a collaborative effort to a competitive one
Khufu wasn't competing against anyone else to build the world's biggest pyramid

>>25218416
He was competing with his predecessors and successors.

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>>25218410
AI

>>25218419
To build a tomb? Where he'd be dead? That subsequently got robbed?

>>25218422
Yes

>>25218424
Weird flex but ok

>>25218410
I include trades like plumbing and electrcianing alongside "carpentry and whatnot." Labor is far more of an "adult job" than coding or consulting

>>25216919
>>25216947

I doubt you'd be any less "alienated" in the respects you mentioned as a factory worker if it was run by the proletariat instead of the capitalist. That's just what you get with industrial society, unfortunately if you want civilization then it's going to require people to be highly specialized and "separated" from the product of their work. People may be economic rivals but it's not that rivalry is somehow the result of capitalism, but that competition is inherent. Of course you could argue within certain more primitive societies, that isn't the case. Within these more primitive societies though trust is almost solely in dependence to the extent you are related to the other tribe members, they are kin based societies. In other words, it's entirely ingroup, the saying "I against my brother, I and my brother against my cousin, I and my brother and my cousin against the stranger" illustrates this mindset quite succinctly. These kin based societies are actually low trust, American Indians for example scalped and tortured other tribes. High trust is the product of lower ethnocentrism and communities where you aren't closely related, forcing you to interact with strangers and associate based on common values. Those are the conditions which lead to civilization , to complex social organization and cooperation. Furthermore, it's exactly this development from primitive tribal society to civic based society that you even get people being able to be creatives. A tribes person is a generalist who's time is occupied by survival, who doesn't have the kind of tools at our disposal to be able to create art. This isn't to mention that some people want to be "alienated", I certainly don't want to be part of some ant mound, ie dictatorship of the proletariat. Not that it could even work to scale as evidenced by the fact it turns into an authoritarian dictatorship. You would probably have to literally modify humans to be more eusocial by removing their reproductive ability and individuality, resembling something more like ants. The feeling of alienation probably has more to do with a lack of spirituality than anything, solitary monks who dedicate themselves to live according to "God" are probably not going to feel alienated. A worker drone who's entire life is just the material reality of consuming and producing is going to feel alienated even if you kill all the capitalists.

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>>25218472
>These kin based societies are actually low trust, American Indians for example scalped and tortured other tribes. High trust is the product of lower ethnocentrism and communities where you aren't closely related, forcing you to interact with strangers and associate based on common values.
Disagree

>>25218479
Holy shit yeah what he said is the DIRECT opposite of the truth. That is a sociopathic level of dishonest.

>>25218479
>>25218487
Europeans, especially Western Europeans are not ethnocentric, they are the least ethnocentric people compared to every other race. Homogeneity =/= ethnocentrism. For centuries Western Europeans have been banned from cousin marriages and it's been the cultural norm to wait until you're able to form an independent household to marry and have kids. This diminished the clan and lead people to forming communities that are civic based not kin based. Of course there are degrees to this, it lowered ethnocentrism but you still had the Germans, the Swedes, etc., then that leads to even more liberal states like the US which expanded this circle of relation to became broadly European instead of just the English, hence the term "white". Of course that leads to expanding to circle to include all of humanity, and that's where the problems actually start. The Western marriage pattern, look it up, it tracks with the rise of civilization. High ethnocentrism =tribal society. When you're thinking that we need to retvrn to ethnocentrism you're not realizing that it's only ethnocentric compared to the modern day, compared to the rest of humanity and the rest of history, the nation states of Europe, or the White nation of the US with it's broadly European people is low in ethnocentrism. You don't know what ethnocentrism actually looks like, nationalism isn't ethnocentrism, high ethnocentrism is the warring amerindians tribes, it's nepotistic Indians who don't care about the trash around them because they have no sense of the common good, something that arises from civic society.

>>25218531
entirely correct trvke thanks for writing all that up

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>>25218531
>it tracks with the rise of civilization.
Should have specified western civilization, obviously other kinds of civilizations exist and have existed, but not the kind you want to live in. It's the kind where there's usually a despotic, nepotistic ruler with hundreds or even thousands of concubines, and every step lower in the hierarchy is just a reflection of that but to a lesser degree because they don't hold as much power. No creativity, no individuality, no science, no sense of justice as being equality before the law. It's why everyone wants to live in the west, but bringing in all those people without the western disposition is going to dilute society and slowly turn it into the shithole they came from.
>>25218536
Thanks

>>25218329
Yup, and now China is rigorously building toward an AI-Automated cybernetic command economy. I have my doubts if itll actually happen but the path to communism lays with where they are going. The west meanwhile is going full posthuman imperial totalitarianism with things.

>>25218099
Chuddies worship the richest man in the world and the president who sucks up the most to Israel.

>>25216919
Yes, the fact of alienation is almost obviously, trivially true and its the basic feeling underpinning most right wing critiques of modernity as well. most RETVRN posts essentially yearn for a simple, non-alienated tight-knit community where one isnt alienated from society and the fruits of ones work are clear and meaningful.

The divergence between left and right is what to do about it. right wing critiques tries to blame it on some outside force (women, immigrants) and tries to solve it with some futile attempt to turn back the clock. Left wing critiques try to blame it on structural factors and try to solve it with a revolution that might never come. I personally prefer the latter.

Woke. 19th century Germany was notoriously crawling with blacks and transsexuals. The first chapter of Capital addresses hair color in video games.

>>25218651
Based alert

>>25218684
The left wing solution is also a futile attempt to turn back the clock, because not only does changing who controls the means of production doesn't change the fact we live in an industrial society, it doesn't change structural factors, you simply go from more owners to less owners. So that wish for having your own land isn't going to pan out in reality, what actually happens is that you turn everyone into workers so no one owns anything except the people in government. The idea that you could go from that, to a stateless society is utterly laughable; state begets more state, you never transition from more state to less state. This is because the type of "economy" that exists within a tight-knit community cannot be scaled to a national level; furthermore, the fact that it's fundamentally coercive and violent means it always leads to authoritarianism. There's a trade off between the simple living of a rural society and the standards of living afforded by industrial society that can't be changed by trying to force the entire populace to live in state-wide commune ruled by a dictator. Instead of trying to, in complete hubris, engineer society in a heavy handed way, the solution is to join or form communties based on voluntary association. Even if the fruit as your work may not be as clear to you as it is to a subsistence farmer, at the very least it's meaningful if it contributes to someone else's well being. Use what you earn to help your family, help your community, instead of causing a violent revolution borne of envy and resentment that will help no one. This is what both sides fail to see, that the time we're living in is one of the best times to form voluntary associations, that a lot of the alienation they feel is an inner mental state due hedonism. If you lived with purpose, according to virtue, developing an inner mental state less dependent on the happenings outside, this time is a great time to be alive. Unless somehow it's preferable to be beholden to whatever group you're born in, to not have the standards of living we do, and to die a brutal death from some disease or from getting tortured by another warring tribe. Unfortunately it may be that retards want to be forced to live a certain way, they wish they were forced to live in scarcity so they weren't addicted to technology or other material things, they wish to be forced to be born into some tribe so they don't have to do the work of forming or joining one. People should be careful what they wish for though, don't romanticize the past.

ITT: mostly midwits who have never cleared 20 pages of Capital

>>25218748
There's a trade off between industrial society with it's high standards of living and rural society with it's simple living*

>>25218684
The right wing complains that they can't get wives, or safe neighborhoods and communities to live in.
They do not complain about their work not being fulfilling or whatever, because they don't care, because nobody cares and it's very low on almost everyone's lists of problems in their life.
It just doesn't matter. It's a stupid thing to worry about.

>>25218795
Most rightist intellectuals don't labor in a Marxist sense, they're closer to Marx's analysis servants/personal chefs on private estates because they're accountable to NGO complexes maintained by moneyed interests. Regardless alienation is not about a personal sense of satisfaction from labor or lack thereof.

>>25218815
Sounds like you're operating with some intellectual dishonesty there. Leftists cannot help it but always think anything the working class does to satisfy transcendent needs which are prior to the material, as always being in the service of capital.

>>25218815
>Most rightist intellectuals don't labor in a Marxist sense
I don't know who you consider a 'rightist intellectual' or why that matters, since I was speaking about right wingers generally. And your characterization is ridiculous.
>Regardless alienation is not about a personal sense of satisfaction from labor or lack thereof.
Then what is it. Why does it matter

>>25218820
The main issue with this is that the need for community and social cohesion are in direct conflict with living in a mcmansion and having two hour daily commute. The intellectual elites of the conservative NGO complex are beholden to real estate and gas oligarchs for their livelihoods so the JD Vance populist distributist realignment project is dead in the water.

>>25218815
>ngos are right wing
And other fantasies the left tells themselves

>>25218684
working with a bunch of retarded indians that stick to themselves is infinitely more alienating than my excel spreadsheet not being personally relevant to me

>>25218843
Right. Plus not being able to advance in your career because of your sex and race. And being ruled over by dumb HR women who conribute nothing but thought and smile policing you. Plus having a bunch of useless diversity coworkers you carry on your back. Plus being unable to get a date because every woman you meet has fucked 20+ guys and is on SSRIs. Plus feeling like an outsider in the city you grew up in. Plus...
But no, marxists are worried about the REAL issues! Marxism is as relevant now as ever!

>>25218832
NGOs don't have any intrinsic political bias any more than cable news channels. The people who own them and keep them running determine their biases. You can squint your eyes and pretend it's all grassroots (democrats do it all the time) but the heritage foundation is writing policy for the Trump admin that will emiserate his base.

>>25216919
GET A JOB AND FIND OUT

Stop posting this garbage

>>25218831
Yeah well they're not real conservatives like you think the Soviet Union wasn't real communism.

>>25218932
whom are you quoting

>>25218961
I'm quoting the person I'm replying to, in the sense that socialists tend to think Stalin betrayed communism which nearly one of them in the west thinks so,

>>25218849
>Plus feeling like an outsider in the city you grew up in
I definitely know how that feels

>>25218849
Take the looksmaxxing pill it solves all of it

>>25218684
based latter preferrer

>>25218748
and yet washington didnt choose a third term did he?

>>25218849
Uhm this is culture war, chud.

>>25218843
>>25218849
What a deeply sad way to think and live. Clearly lonely, not happy in life, but all people in your life get projected onto abstract caricatures of slutty women and incompetent minorities. Human interaction is replaced with basedjack pictures in your mind and now you're suprised that you feel like an outsider.

But this is exactly what alienation from work also entails from a Marxist perspective (although it is admittedly an unusually sad and partially self-imposed version). Its not just 'i dont care about my excel spreadsheet', it is also 'work has been split up into small individual tasks can be done in isolation, and because each worker does just enough of what theyre paid for without caring about the final product or the other workers, there is no social fabric that work is done by and done for'.

Compare this to i.e the harvesting season in a rural village where work has not been splintered and alienated in the same way: people come together, have a harvest festival. People are glad because the work they do guarantees them a comfortable life and a full stomach for the whole community. It is a great occasion of hard work and celebration.

You dislike these people because they feel like they're invading and breaking down what the social fabric: the Indians that stick to themselves, the women do not want to interact with you. But realize that the social fabric is already gone, alienated away. And because of that, people can stick to small cliques, have trouble getting to know each other, only keep superficial relationships,etc. Its a symptom, not a cause.

>>25217941
>Yes, and I'm saying that's a civilizing tendency and not something that needs to be abolished in a revolution of our system of production.
Marxists believe that history is one big continuum. So the question of civilised/uncivilised does not arise. But yes, to put it this way, the development of material forces across time has only lead to more alienation.
>I'll gladly sacrifice some of that for the boons of civilization.
I reckon their belief is that modern material forces are not just compatible with but also necessary for a communal society. Marx himself, in German Ideology, conceives of pre-historic people as a private people confined to their caves, immediate families or farm land. Which is very different from our modern conception of them as a communal people. To Marx, communal society runs parallel to what you call civilisation (materially speaking) . Which manifests in structures such as barracks or prisons.
>The real miracle is the abandonment of brutality by the enforcement of civilized norms - again, alienation from our nature, a good thing.
As we discussed before, this alienation is merely a distancing, not an abolition. As another anon pointed out above, it's one thing to punch your enemy to death. It's another thing to push a button from your headquarter's safety and watch many people burn to death. Or realising that your labour in an aluminum factory is directly responsible for brutal deaths.

>>25219202
No it doesn't

>>25219678
>What a deeply sad way to think and live. Clearly lonely, not happy in life, but all people in your life get projected onto abstract caricatures of slutty women and incompetent minorities. Human interaction is replaced with basedjack pictures in your mind and now you're suprised that you feel like an outsider.
First paragraph, we're already onto insane delusion and projection
>But this is exactly what alienation from work also entails from a Marxist perspective (although it is admittedly an unusually sad and partially self-imposed version). Its not just 'i dont care about my excel spreadsheet', it is also 'work has been split up into small individual tasks can be done in isolation, and because each worker does just enough of what theyre paid for without caring about the final product or the other workers, there is no social fabric that work is done by and done for'.
Segway into something completely unrelated
>Compare this to i.e the harvesting season in a rural village where work has not been splintered and alienated in the same way: people come together, have a harvest festival. People are glad because the work they do guarantees them a comfortable life and a full stomach for the whole community. It is a great occasion of hard work and celebration.
Talking about USSR propaganda posters now
>You dislike these people because they feel like they're invading and breaking down what the social fabric: the Indians that stick to themselves, the women do not want to interact with you. But realize that the social fabric is already gone, alienated away. And because of that, people can stick to small cliques, have trouble getting to know each other, only keep superficial relationships,etc. Its a symptom, not a cause.
You're a delusional retard
The social fabric is in fact gone. Caused by these things and more.
What it's not caused by is capitalism. Unless you want to argue that our parents and grandparents didn't have capitalism. Whereas in reality the world was much MORE capitalist while also having much better culture and society.
Just a terrible take on reality. I can see where you get it. The movies and public school lectures and podcasts and filling in the blanks to come to this conclusion. But you're just wrong. That's all it is. You've heard of being wrong, right?

>>25219833
>What it's not caused by is capitalism. Unless you want to argue that our parents and grandparents didn't have capitalism. Whereas in reality the world was much MORE capitalist while also having much better culture and society.
>Just a terrible take on reality. I can see where you get it. The movies and public school lectures and podcasts and filling in the blanks to come to this conclusion. But you're just wrong. That's all it is. You've heard of being wrong, right?
the opposite of one thing doesn't necessarily make it right.

>>25218849
>List of reactionary PMC cultural gripes
Putting a chud spin on Robin D'Angelo does not make it any more serious.

>>25219833
>The social fabric is in fact gone. Caused by these things and more.
Do you think that social fabric disappeared overnight and that everything was fine before? The tendency of Capitalist alienation is one that gets worse over time. It does not come out of the womb perfectly formed the second a Dutch merchant starts selling stocks. The pre-capitalist rural communities you seem to read as USSR propaganda posters got largely destroyed during the industrial revolution. Those farm laborers got turned into factory workers living in slums, competing for each other's jobs.

In the era of your Grandparents and parents that process of alienation continued. Small grocers, local artisans and small restaurants got folded into large corporations, replacing the local community structure with a Wallmart, a McDonalds, and an Amazon warehouse. Most factory jobs were moved to China and India during the 80s due to cheaper wages, replacing most western labor activity with tertiary industry (excel jobs) and putting many others out of a job. This outsourcing also created an even larger alienation between people and the products with which they build their life: your whole life is now mass-produced, mass-marketed junk from factories in poor countries rather than any expression of local culture.

>>25220220
does it though? I mean what's good for the goose is good for the gander and vice versa and all that

>>25220359
Inspiring! Workers can be radicalized even in the exotic eastern city of istanbul.

>>25220336
>Do you think that social fabric disappeared overnight and that everything was fine before?
NTA but yes I do. If you actually talk to people from those generations it is clear that the regular social fabric they shared was destroyed in a very short time period in many countries. Immigration through the roof, cost of living crises, lockdowns and social distancing (how much more concrete does it have to be?), now the so-called AI boom/bubble that doesn't seem to be going anywhere good. All these things destroyed social practices and institutions that had been part of western culture for centuries. Society is completely atomized and depersonalized now in a way that it wasn't even ten years ago. It's over.

>>25220374
*Berlin

>>25218479
Nice fake graph

>>25218531
>Europeans, especially Western Europeans are not ethnocentric, they are the least ethnocentric people compared to every other race.
White people wouldn't exist if this was true, so no. You're a mentally ill jewish tranny that doesn't understand how genes work.

>>25218479
I really like that this cuts off right before the full migrant crisis which made Swedens crime problem skyrocket.

>>25218472
>>25218531
Civilization is a lie fueled by kabbalistic progress based narratives and capitalism was invented by retards. You will all die of peak oil, NO exceptions.

>>25220377
This progressive alienation has been going on from the start of early industrialization. Of course for each generation different things change that seemed to be part of western culture for centuries, because those are the only ones left that hadn't changed in previous generations yet. I gave some examples in the original post (globalization, disappearance of local industry) but the list is endless, and they were (correctly) decried as the end of a way of life each time.

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>>25216985
>>25218472
>>25217286
Its more interesting when you look at what actually happened n the Soviet union
You work at a machine shop.... so you spend half your shift on private projects and trading favors. Why? Because if "they pretend to pay us, we pretend to work"

In this case, the machine shop operator satisfies at the least 3/4 clauses for not feeling alienation.
Similarly in a capitalist economy, a core after rWW2 is that you could buy miniature stuff of the same gigantic machines you would operate at work, and you could still trade favors to get things done for yourself that you can't do.

Its even more interesting in post WW2 for USA.
Is the trade you are doing good enough for your CV, that you realistically can change jobs into a equal or better occupation? Or are you forced to go to the re-ededucation mines for a Diploma and hopefully not getting cucked by a recession?
Can you free yourself and start your own enterprise? Or are you essentially a wageslave to your local Intel cleanroom fab?

>>25218335
Its a little more complex than that.
Lack of human contact is going to lead to insanity. Trading your time for a lack of human contact is fine so long you are getting what you as a worker need to get from it.
Without the wages(and things to trade them for), a real social network where you live, pride/skill development in your craft, and a opportunity to get a different job...

The point Marx is making has to do with chattel slavery, or rather why some things are acceptable to the human mind in extreme conditions.
In Marx time this form of chattel wage slavery started died out due organization vs advancements in planning and automation. But its still happening in a lot of Africa and SEA.

>>25219202
>>25218843
No, but it makes it far easier.
But the flavor is different

The HR won't engage in thought and smile policing, but instead will try to drag you into completely fucked up office politics bullshit because she is bored while having job security. While the few boomer colleges you still have is still going to tell you they got their initial experience doing something that hasn't been physically doable since the late 90s.
And in some ways its going to make the dating worse, because the people you can date are still very boring.

>>25220538
I explained what I meant by that later in the post. I don't mean Europeans have no ethnocentrism, although this may be the case for some demographic of Europeans today ie "leftists"; I mean that they are low in ethnocentrism and have the lowest ethnocentrism compared to every other race, and that there is a reason for that. How could you honestly deny that? Do you think it's possible for people to allow themselves to be replaced if they were highly ethnocentric? Or that it's possible to go from high ethnocentrism to low ethnocentrism in a generation? No, it's like expecting pygmy's who are 7 foot tall, this is to say the reason why there are a demographic of white people who are not only not ethnocentric, but they have an out group bias, is only because they come out of the general population of white people who are on average low in ethnocentrism, and this average has been lowering for centuries. This is Europeans' strength but it's also their weakness when it's in excess. It's a strength because it's conductive for creativity, science, and science philosophy, because Europeans are able to question tradition due to their individuality, they're able to be impartial and objective due to being able to separate themselves from their tribalness. This lack of tribalness is what allows for high trust society to exist, because their morality is more universal and thus even strangers are deserving of some basic decency, that we should care about the common good. Why do you think Europeans developed rules of conduct even in war when other people have no limiting principle in how to treat the "other"? Other people don't have this, other people they're thinking about what they can get out of the "other" for themselves and their kin. That's why American Indians scalped and tortured each other, it's why Indians don't care about the trash around them and why they care so much about "izzat". These kinds of people don't care about the common good, they don't care about meritocracy, they don't care about truth, they care about saving face, they are nepotistic. Europeans even care about non-humans, other people certainly do not, let alone a stranger, that's why you see those videos of someone laying on the street and no one does anything. While this is a strength of Europeans and it's what caused the rise of western civilization, now it's causing their undoing because in extreme degrees you will allow yourself to be replaced because you don't have enough of the part of the mind which recognizes danger and makes distinctions which is necessary for survival.

>>25220688
> that's why you see those videos of someone laying on the street and no one does anything.
From China, meant to specify that.

>>25220688
maybe you eurotrannies are just dysgenic and suicidal.

>>25217699
>Now you might be conflating industrial societies with capitalism itself. And you may not be entirely wrong in that. It's hard to imagine what industrialisation beyond capitalism would truly look like. But as of now capitalism and industrialisation are pretty much two sides of the same coin.
Marxism, when you remove all the bullshit, boils down to Luddite non-sense like this. Even your screeds against alienation is lamenting the amenities of modern civilization that make life easier 99% of people who aren't autistic. This isn't really surprising to me seeing how delusional Marx, Lenin and Mao were in their obsession over rural communes in Russia and other primitive forms of rural living in their day. You also weirdly assume communism is something you can not do right now, when even in Marx's time he was a retard who tried moving to one in Texas. You guys just don't wanna work and want society to take care of you lol

>>25221767
Even though Marxists are wrong for trying to make sense of Capitalism, Capitalism is still retards and profit doesn't exist.