>>25224649
humanities degrees shouldn't be a thing at all. whomsoever desires an education, let him pirate from the archive, and live reclusively or with his local likeminded scholars.

>>25224649
AI killed modern academia. Universities were already gradually becoming obsolete thanks to the internet, but thanks to AI being able to shit out essays like it’s nothing, they’ve lost their last means of gatekeeping the degrees.

The only reason people still go to uni is to network and get laid, and there are cheaper means of doing that.

>>25224663
100 different retards might have 100 different takes. If you understand literature and history there are a finite of sensible takes.

I should get one before the gravy train derails

>>25224676
>to network and get laid, and there are cheaper means of doing that
Individually. Unis bundle it all up into a single package along with a nice shiny qualification which is still necessary for any career worth pursuing

>>25224663
How do we teach history in high school if there aren’t any historians?

>>25224649
More likely that non-online universities will go extinct at online universities just further prove that the modern university doesn't teach you anything and is just a credentialed stamp of approval pointlessly stretched out over 4 years

>>25224719
Historians aren't teaching K-12 anyway, people with "education" degrees (lol) are

>>25224729
You learn knowledge (content) and skills (form) at university. There’s also understanding (interrelated nature of content and form), which you sorely lack. Anyone will learn in any degree; it’s just about what your ceiling is and what your goals are. If you don’t put in work, you’ll get nothing out of it.

>>25224732
You need to have majored in history to teach it in my country. You probably live in a shithole where someone is teaching despite having a college diploma.

>>25224736
Wait, so what history majors are relegated to teaching history to, say, 5 to 10 year olds in your country?

>>25224733
All of that can be done more efficiently outside of the classroom setting. This isn't the pre 1950s where classroom work is difficult or mentorship exists. Even in math, physics, and engineering courses, your professors likely are barely fluent in English and you're doing most of the learning on your own outside of lecture. And humanities courses are absurdly dumbed down and 90% of it is classroom discussion where half the class doesn't do the readings but they all participate because 'discussion participation' is half the grade.

>>25224736
Most history teachers in America have undergraduate history degrees, and masters degress in education. An undergrad degree in history is basically nothing, and a well read highschooler likely knows and has read as much as them, if not more.

>>25224733
>If you don’t put in work, you’ll get nothing out of it.
I'm in a math PhD program and didn't attend a single lecture in undergrad because it's a complete waste of time. Arguably everyone in a high-level PhD STEM program is largely self-taught and not there because of some amazing professor they had that beamed knowledge into their brain.

>>25224733
>pretending jewniversities are anything but capitalist degreemills 81 years after the Second Great Gentile Uprising
ISHYGDDT

>>25224663
Fuck the philosophy, everyone should freely jack off without problem because no one will remember it.

>>25224847
The boldness of the lie is simple:
>largely self-taught
Then how do you find the course material, and plot out what to lean and how?

>>25224649
>devaluing credentials
Lol, lmao even. That is the current problem. What we need is an agnostic skill checker to where it no longer matters if you got a ScamU, Harvard or “self taught at the library” degree. The one thing degrees are supposed to do (eg. act as a verification of attained knowledge and skills) is what they haven’t been doing for half a century. >>25224663
> with his local likeminded scholars.
I mean it’d be nice if we could actually involve only people who actually want to learn something rather than the 90%+ there for the paper chase. Do you have to be living on gibs or loans and going to a university to study humanities? Really? Because in my experience there’s a hell of a lot of reading, some cramming for tests and then seminaries where you pray to get partnered up with halfway intelligent people who actually give a shit. What is the success story of this model exactly?

>>25224885
Self-taught in the sense they aren't learning from the lectures they're supposed to be attending. Usually learning from reading things published in math textbooks written decades ago like Spivaks

>>25224885
> how do you find the course material, and plot out what to lean and how?
Do you think there have been major shifts in how to teach STEM skills effectively? Are you in the business of selling yearly textbook updates to financially ruin students? What exactly about teaching materials and coursework requires universities and tuitions?

>>25224911
No.
What ha shifted is that it doesn't end on a offline paper exam where you need to reach 70-80% to pass. Or the entry exam to the 3 year course is now gone.

>>25224649
>"we need more people who tick x box"
>get more people who tick x box
>turn 360 degrees and complain about having too many x box tickers

>>25224649
>>25224676
>>25224729
Nah, there is going to be a return to pre-modern ascetical formation education (the goal being formation in virtue). Monastic retreats are already very popular, and classical educations that relied on this model, although to date 99% of them force it into the post-Enlightenment box.

I'm not saying this will be big, but I bet it will be a thing. There are already successful models for semester plus long service learning or experiential schools, stuff like: https://areteproject.org/

Homeschooling this this vein has blown up but people are going to realize it's a bit limited for teens and young adults, let alone for older adults who want a change in their way of life rather than just a career change.

Actually, the West has a number of these already, it's just that they are, ironically, all Eastern (mostly Buddhist).

For one thing, the zeitgeist today, particularly in the American context, looks in many ways like Rome in Plotinus' day (of course the comparison is loose, I am mostly basing that on feels). That to me says we are ripe from a turn aways from worldly, instrumental success, and the endless grind of the modern "ladder of honors," and ready for a contemplative turn towards the "ladder of virtues."

Plus, this goes along with the success of the traditional Churches as of late. The Orthodox obviously (they are tiny but growth is also shocking in many areas), but the Catholics have also had a surge in adult converts. More to the point though, I know of a lot of discontent over Catholic education basically becoming secular education with light catachesis and occasional prayer. It's become popular to tear it down and begin with a classical virtue approach.

what is even supposed to happen now that genuinely every degree is worthless or on its way to being oversaturated and worthless if not already except for the extreme ones.
like fuck man there's just no chance

>>25224649
and before that theyd pay some nerd to write their essays and do their math hw

This is essentially exposing the fact that "degrees" are little more than a regulatory cartel and cap on jobs.
Speaking to people on /lit/, its pretty obvious college students are stupid and that their degrees were a scam.

>>25224985
>Plus, this goes along with the success of the traditional Churches as of late. The Orthodox obviously (they are tiny but growth is also shocking in many areas), but the Catholics have also had a surge in adult converts
The actual numbers say otherwise unless you're counting third world converts. The growth of Catholicism in the US for instance is just because of SouthAm immigration, not because White people are finding faith again

>>25224885
>Then how do you find the course material, and plot out what to lean and how?
All of it is available for free or a nominal fee on the Internet. Specific degree programs are usually public as well. I can confirm that he's correct, STEM undergrad is mostly useless and anyone serious is almost entirely an autodidact. College is supposed to teach you autodidacism anyway.

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>>25224985
Thoughts on College of St. Joseph the Worker in Ohio?

More context: https://www.newyorker.com/news/annals-of-education/saving-a-lost-generation-of-young-men-with-chop-saws

Non-paywall link: https://archive.is/lCsFK

>>25225183
Thoughts on Hillsdale? Thoughts on Ralston? Thoughts on Williamson? Thoughts on Harmel? Thoughts on St. John? Thoughts on thoughts?

>>25225183
borderline seminary/divinity so why not go all the way don't see how the degree would be worth anything and you can just go to trade school and also church like everyone else

>>25224649
I disagree. The tools to prevent ai cheating already exist; programs that disallow opening any other tabs, rules that cameras need to be on during your work with ai looking for signs of cheating. Online programs just need to implement these more stringently and make a few example expulsions.

>>25224719
Teaching peasants history is a complete waste of time and only leads to a decline in the field. Art, history, literature and all humanities should be reserved only for the wealthy elite. Everyone else should be learning a trade or STEM.

>>25225277
You could just do always to in person examinations, like we still do and have basically always done. Writing is a little bit more tricky, but even then, you could just incorporate an oral element, use shorter prompts, or assign poetry.

>>25225010
There are adult baptisms surging in white European countries like England and France. Gaytheists and Fagnostics just don't like admitting that their globohomo march of secularism is falling apart.

>>25225277
Let's just go back to mail correspondence schools

>>25225183
>no Latin courses
Excuse me?

>>25224649
I think all school as it exists now will go extinct sooner rather than later.
Education as a separate public institution in the modern world is quite stupid. Even stupider is private schools that functionally work the exact same.
If the purpose of school is employment (which by necessity it now is) then there is no longer any need for it be separated from the labor market. In fact the greatest problem of the education system lies in this disconnect.
Most jobs actually require very little real education that isn't simply gained with time in vivo.

>>25225339
Its genuinely psychotic that people just accepted
>yeah I spent 4 years studying shakespeare and chaucer so I could get a job as a manager of my regional grocery store
Fucking retarded. And all these colleges and universities are so bloated too. I remember even thinking that as a kid when I saw their massive lists of majors that don't mean anything

>>25225183
their scope is already too big for what they are what a shame. if you're going to also make people do a trade that means your academic courses need to be real heavy hitters but they already have bullshit like..american founding and they're missing things core to catholicism. their coursework seems so confused and at odds with all the language they use in their goals. the trades they have on offer seem like they just asked around the local town for any tradesmen that feel like teaching

ITT people talking out of their asses


many such cases

>>25225339
As western economies continue to collapse society will be forced to face the obvious truth that proles will never significantly contribute to art, literature etc. The vast majority of their existence should be focused on preparing them for hard labour so that they can avoid being a burden on everyone else.

Eliminating all forms of welfare would fix so many problems.

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>>25224985
>success of the traditional Churches as of late.
Is your name Ngubu or Nguyen?

>>25225385
I do think pathways for the working class to participate in the arts should be left open, but it should be something you have to seek out of your own accord as opposed to being forced on everyone.

>>25225398
That's fine as long as they receive zero government assistance and funding to schools is meticulously tracked and not wasted on these programs.

>>25225326
I'm Christian but I dont think the numbers show adult baptisms outnumbering the people who leave the Church. And this is without getting into the liberalization of every Church under the sun, even Catholics and more rw protestant ones. Christian revival is largely cope

>>25225390
Damn nigga, how did you get numbers from the future?
>>25225592
>I'm Christian
No you're not, Chaim.

>>25224677
>if you get indoctrinated into academia and completely unlearn what normal words mean there's a finite selection of libtarded takes

>>25224676
>The only reason people still go to uni is to network and get laid
this has always been the only real reason to ever go to an institution of higher learning since the beginning of time. The effect of assembling a group of intelligent peers is real and valuable. Connecting people with mentors and like-minded colleagues is the entire value. The information distribution is more a symptom.

>>25224911
>>25224914
I mean bio and chem will always need to be in person because building a barebones lab and running it for a year would be like 150k, a real one with anything like mass spec like $10MM
humanities got replaced by chatGPT
math and physics can be self taught

>>25225631
Yeah I'm a member of a confessional presbyterian church and a staunch calvinist, idk why you're coping about church numbers growing. Also bearing false witness is an 8th Commandment violation even if it's "le heckin online" jsyk

>>25225733
>calvinist
Enjoy hell.

>>25225734
Romans 9 is the most clear articulation of predestination, not sure what your issue is

>>25225734
Pope supports mass immigration and opposes the death penalty now, Confessional Protestantism is the only options for faithful Christians at this point.

I just started a 2 year stem degree and so far its embarassing. The first 3 months of my course seem to have a week or 2 worth of work in them total. I completed the first month of work in 2 days. And if I just wait out for a few years Ill have a degree. Its a fucking joke.

>>25225749
Are you American? American degrees outside of the top 10 universities aren't worth the paper they're printed on. It's embarrassing how much the math education has been dumbed down to accommodate certain minority groups.

>>25225766
Ya but fast food managers in America make as much as software engineers in Europa, it's bleak everywhere

>>25225749
>I just started a 2 year degree
Lol

>>25225749
so when u finish with a high gpa, transfer to a selective four year and find out. good for u dude.

>>25225326
>There are adult baptisms surging in white European countries like England and France
>white European countries

Should we tell him?

>>25224649
I'm way to Wuxiapilled right now to see this as a bad thing

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>>25225748
With all due respect, I believe many "Christianity's gone woke" personal criticisms can be resolved by realizing that said criticisms primarily pertain to HETERODOX Christianity, and by seeking truth in Orthodox rites.

>>25225337
Yeah and I just realized.

Do divinity / Christian studies degrees in the US typically require study of a liturgical or scriptural language?

IMO all serious advanced religious studies programs with their butter ought to offer at least one of Ecclesiastical Latin, Biblical Hebrew, Biblical Aramaic, Koine Greek, Old Church Slavonic, Classical Arabic, or Classical Syriac.

>>25226069
A lot of idolatry in that image, pretty pagan and unorthodox as far as the history of the early church is concerned. Wasn't happening when Irenaeus and Justin Martyr were writing.

>>25225277
Yeah, that's what we need, more intrusive surveillence. Great idea!

>>25226069
Christians from the first couple centuries would have burned that ""church"" down for daring to depict Christ

>>25226737
>>25226800
But hailing Mary is a-OK, right?

>>25224649
>worries about devaluing credentials
Pretty much admitting that it was never about the CONTENT of the course, just about the act of sacrificing your time for the sake of it.

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>>25226737
>>25226800
No they wouldn't have. There is a reason iconoclasm was decided to be a heresy.

>>25226838
>But hailing Mary is a-OK, right?
Nope! Marian veneration is entirely unbiblical as well, same with veneration of saints and intercessionary prayer. All 4thC accretions

>>25226890
>232BC
>after the deaths of Justin Maryr and Irenaeus

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>>25226982
Did you know this guy was literally full of shit

>>25226988
Please cite where either of these are inconoclasts.

>>25227025
He's probably disingenuously referring to a section of Ireneus' against heresies where he condemns a gnostic sect that mixes Christian art with Pagan idols (including to philosophers) and then engaged in explicitly Pagan ritual with them. Reading this as a prohibition on Church art, much less that they would schism and "burn down churches" over it is absurd.

Justin Martyr is even less clear because he simply makes reference in an apologetic piece directed at pagans to say that they don't use idols as they do.

Hippolytus would actually be the strongest iconoclast early figure to use, but even he isn't that clear.

Plus, the whole idea relies on this sort of "theology of the gaps" where "my theology is what the Fathers embraced," (largely through their silence, they don't really say anything about intercession one way or another in the earliest sources) and then magically, once the persecutions let up enough that we have a clear historical record, over that single lifetime, literally all of the orthodox became "heretical" proto Catholics/Eastern Orthodox/Coptics in their praxis, out of nowhere.

Note though that when figures like Ireneus speak in extremely explicit terms about the Eucharist as the body and blood of Christ, this is "metaphor" in many settings.

Anyhow, if images are "unbiblical' (which is almost always just a codeword for "not Calvinist," although some Evangelicals have borrowed it), then God is clearly being unbiblical when he tells Moses to make graven images on numerous occasions and to use them in worship, the Ark and alter being the most obvious examples, but the bronze snake in numbers also being an important one as a precursor to Christ.

>>25227061
>largely through their silence, they don't really say anything about intercession one way or another

Saint Ignatius is seen praying for his flock after his martyrdom in visions and inscriptions and traditions seem to have the veneration of the martyrs going back that far. He is close enough to have heard the Apostle John preach and to be taught by his student and fellow martyr Saint Polycarp.

>>25225749
You go to community college in the bronx, not Caltech or MIT
lol

>>25226076
>Classical Syriac
i think there are 5 people in the world that can read syriac

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>>25224649
this article is click bait
it uses people who transfer 75% of their credits or who already work as experts in the field they are studying for as proofs while noting the actual average for online programs is 2.5 years or something

basically op is a cum guzzling faggot retard

>>25228320
>create a system where being persecuted leads to asylum
>people lie about being persecuted
>i renounced my religion and now my retard bronze age brothers back home will surely kill me
>have to verify these stories because of the perverse incentives to lie
>media creates sob stories
>how dare you, how can failing to understand humanism and recognize plato mean he’s not a humanist it’s just a feeling or whatever
Camp of the Saints isn’t a well written book but god damn is it accurate.

>>25225010
No they don't. You're confusing net growth and growth in adult converts. It's possible for there to be a large growth in adult converts (there has been) and static or negative net growth because of people leaving the Church. But the people leaving tend to be people who haven't gone to liturgy in years, or only on holidays, and just checked a box on the surveys, while the people replacing them tend to be very committed.

People have long misinterpreted the rise of the "nones" in demographic polls. Certainly, there has been a large decline in religiosity, but it's been far more even than surveys suggest. The growth of nones has been powered by people who never went to church or young adults whose parents checked a box but never took them to church.

>>25224676
Not to that extent there isn't, no. That's why 4chan is so lonely

>>25224688
it is too late. the names mentioned in the article have cracked down on it. redditors made a subreddit to boast about speedrunning degrees and this exposed the whole scheme.