Can we have a TBK thread?It bugs me that Ivan isn't the steelman Dostoevsky and his followers hail him to be, he could have easily padded his atheism with some deontological ethics that barrickade him from doing really anything that is within his might ,which would have stopped Smerdyakov and his sociopathy.The Grand Inquisitor is also partly a specific critique of the institution of the Catholic Church itself, and how in it's worldly actions is trying to achieve something like a world where Christ would given into the Devil. Here there is also a critique of Orthodoxy as they two rely on miracles and state intervention to pacify the civies.I guess only if all of Christianitys global earthly aim is the same then Ivan's argument against Christ is universal.
i have abrahamic fatigue
I also wanted a contrast between an atheist who does live like a Christian not because he is convinced by it's theology but because it's a good utilitarian way to maximize happiness of people, whom he instinctually likes, and a bitter psychopath whose outward actions are the same because of his theological beliefs.I wonder where to go for that.
>>25226364>I wonder where to go for that.Reddit.
>>25226350Im gonna make a thread of the Islamic model of the soul next.
>>25226365It has been done inside the book in TGI somewhat and the Zosima/Ferapont contrast, but why I asked this is that, well, is the question of Alyosha's internal state as to his souls impulses even important, or is the outward manifestation that Christianity gives you really the only sound argument.
The one nagging thing is that Dostoevsky kinda assumes you are from some normie Christian background, you kinda miss the looming Orthodox Church or just Church overlay otherwise.
>>25226504I think he also presumes a young hip socialist audience which is why Ivan is there and also quite popular
>>25226508True, but again you already need to know the basics of the Christian faith which was still normal for the population at that time, and no doubt that many Rakitins would be in the audience among the Readers.
>>25226350Fpwp, >>>/india/>>25226348Ethical systems cannot be self justifying so I don't see how it would have changed anything. But it's been almost a decade since I read this so I'm probably forgetting whatever makes it relevant.
>>25226504Yeah no shit, he was writing for 1800s Europe.
>>25226812>Ethical systems cannot be self justifyingWhy do they have to be justified, you can cling to axioms and appeal to [insert abstract verb], is that justification?
>>25226847Yes, ultimately I think (t. Ignorant autodidact) that's what most beliefs *are* at the end of the day. But once you step outside of reason (and you must) you are immune to it but become, emotionally and socially speaking, subject to far looser rules and expectations. Iirc the latter is the arena in which Dostoevsky mostly operates but again it's been (much over, I forgot it was 2026) a decade for me.
>>25226816Yeah, even if the seeds of atheist materialism were there, the default was Christianity.But surely Dosto had the foresight that Reddit Rakitkins would get the upper hand, so why not make an explicit case for Christianity specifically
>>25226868Dostoevsky is playing with emotions that Christianity operates on, life itself is a good, so Ivan's objections only work in that context. Alyosha's actions as well, obviously, when he is following Zosima's philosophy and being the change to which everything is connected, metaphysics need to get acted out.Ivan's metaphysics acted out end in a catastrophe as shown by what his mini-me does.The orthodoxy doesn't really stand out through the pages, you need to see the icons and smell the incense to be engulfed in it further
I also found Chekov's gun in the opening chapters where the socialite liberal from France says that from all the socialist rabble the Christian Socialists are unique and the most dangerous.This was the plan for Alyosha's route in the planned second book, he would not be exempt from the Dostoevsky's sin yourway to Christ trope, but would likely been done by a more nuanced and believeable way.Too bad we will never get it, hopefully I make it to heaven and read it there.
Bumping with some art. Bros I really can't wait to (hopefully) get to heaven to read the second part. Dostoevsky probably already finished it.
