Weber>capitalism grew out of protestant values, the protestant work ethic and works as a reflection of justificationMarx>the reformation rather grew out of the emerging capitalist class in order to justify their values and belief they were closer to god than the clergy or aristocracy
you know who
>>25243185Voldemort?
Capitalism grew out of Florence when they invented double entry bookkeeping
>>25243207Banking started with the templars. Weber isn't talking about instances though. He is talking about a social revolution
>>25243179marx, obivously
Gay
>>25243179Correct answer is Marx. The formation of Capitalistic structures lead directly to the breakdown of the Catholic Church
>>25243245But the reformation was the 1500s, and capitalism was founded around the 1600s
Did this material phenomenon happen because of>woobly boobly civilizational zeitgeists nobody can see?or>factual phenomenaCareful now. This question may determine your whole worldview.
>>25243250The seeds were already there. The printing press was invented and the mass production of the Bible was industrialised for the first time. Guilds were forming with ever more specialised labour and wage relationships
capitalism was invented when someone thought to create money
>>25243250The urbanized bourgeoisie are the capitalist class and they started to emerge in ernest after the plague killed many skilled laborers and made the value of the others increase enough that they could set aside money as capital
>>25243179I'm a Weberian not a Marxist
>>25243261Money is not capital. Money can be, many things can be. But just having money is not capital
>>25243283I actually despite most Marxists because its a religion to them, not a science.
i don't even know what capitalism means and the more i read about people who use that word i become more and more convinced that neither do they. i guess it just doesn't mean anything. it's like a magical placeholder word that means different things to everyone using it. So i suppose they're both wrong.
>>25243179>Who was right?Weber. The always underated Weber.
>>25243287This is why I despise most scientists
>>25243292Do you know what capital means? Amd by extension, what a capitalist is?
>>25243287Do you have nothing else going on in your life except opening every thread that tangentially mentions Marx and copy paste your retarded 60iq anti-communist slogans? You do realise that smart people will never take you seriously ever with shitty opinions like "muh religion muh cult" . When YOU are the one acting like a cultist who cannot make good arguments and hates something because some propaganda worked on you.
>>25243308Tbf most Marxists in *America* are followers of CIA-curated "safe Marxism" which grew out of the new left
>>25243306yeah i can read the dictionary, but by that definition it most certainly predates Martin Luther lmao. why are they talking about protestantism?
>>25243319Capitalism predates Martin Luther of course. Capitalists, at least after the fall of the Roman Empire and in Europe, were a small minority. Nobility did not accrue capital, they just lived off the serfs but they didn't set aside wealth for growth and expansion, their idea of expansion was just something done in war. But during what is today called "the early modern era", that is, the period after the middle ages, the capitalist class started to get big and powerful enough to contend against nobles and clergy for power and choice of laws. That is the phenomenon being discussed
>>25243336So weber can be disregarded according to you?
>>25243347Weber is specifically talking about the proliferation of capitalism which he sees as brought about by a new set of mores that encouraged working more than you are inclined to in order to accumulate money you don't need in order to invest it. He doesn't say these mores invented capital
>>25243292I don't understand it either. I read Weber, and he defined Capitalism as a system that seeks profit, which is understandable and something I agree with. However, what separates that from feudalism and pre-feudal systems, since all of those systems saw making a profit as the primary means of a merchant making their livelyhood?
>>25243179Marx. Ideas don't create societies by themselves. It's amazing how anti-Marx dogma blinds so many people to this obvious truth. In American politics James Carville is treated as a savant for acknowledging that "It's the economy, stupid". You don't even have to be a Marxist to understand it.
>>25243358They don't seek to *increase* profit which requires using part of profit as capital, so that you returns on profit get gradually larger and larger
>>25243357sounds quite ancient.
>>25243373It was a major part of the patrician class of ancient Rome, because their primary source of income was lending at interest to the plebs, and then confiscating their lands or persons for failure to pay.
>>25243179basically Did capitalism grow out of the reformation >weberorDid the reformation grow out of capitalism >marxyou have to really stretch the definition of capitalism to say the latter
>Y'all nigga ain't got no bread.
>>25243179>the reformation rather grew out of the emerging capitalist class in order to justify their values and belief they were closer to god than the clergy or aristocracyDid Marx actually believe this?
>>25243285So a smith who owns several furnaces and other things to produce goods, and can set aside some money for winter, is not technically a capitalist?
>>25243526Not until he is using that money as capital.
>>25243179They aren't in complete mutual disagreement though. >Weber explains the ethos behind the origins of the bourgeois class of the protestant world in the 17th century and the foundations of the capitalist worldview from this ethical and cultural perspective. >Marx explains how the bourgeoisie created capitalism as a full socioeconomic model in the late 18th to the early 19th century.Both can be correct.
>>25243179Weber.Read Weber’s Complete Works in German too.Ludwig Lachmann considered himself a Weberian and Hayek, Mises, Rothbard, Hoppe all coped about Lachmann’s Radical Subjectivism
>>25243589No. Weber is clearly an ideas first guy. The gist of dialectical materialism is that material conditions determine everything except what marxists themselves decide to do, to make their revolutionary ideations seem more possible to themselves.
>>25243623Marxists are material lil brobro
>>25243252>if I can't see it it don't existFactual phenomena doesn't assume anything, it just is; the point of contention is once you start assuming whether these factual phenomena are the result of ideas or the result of material conditions is. That is to say it's when you start trying to come up with an explanation rather than just a description. Factual phenomena don't prove or explain themselves, that is circular. Furthermore, if the logic of marx were sound we would see his predictions barring out in reality. If he utterly failed in predicting anything and if every communist state utterly failed maybe it's time to go back to the drawing board.
material conditions are only kindling
>>25243665Ideas as a phenomenon are predicated upon matter. Labor in Marx is unique human in that is the process of actualizing the imagination. But reality is matter and the imagination comes from that. Otherwise reality would be whatever you imagined and no labor would be involvedCommunism turned China and Russia from agrarian backwaters intl global powers. If it utterly failed, it wouldn't have done that.Marx's predictions about capitalism are absolutely proven. Percentage of wealth is becoming increasingly concentrated and profit is nearing closer and closer to zero sum, and in fact already is in financial markets
>>25243625I know. Can't you read?
>>25243679>Communism turned China and RussiaI didn't know communism was a stateful and classed society.
>>25243709Sure my guy just thought I would give you a friendly neighborhood reminder that in the English language material conditions means the conditions of material things. Stay cool and keep learning
>>25243712Sorry. This is board for people who read books. It's for discussion of books.
>>25243679What about those times when capitalist societies achieved greater wealth equality and standard of living? Even the most backward third world shithole is better off now than 100 years ago. Might I remind you China’s Gini coefficient is still high, and has been increasing.
>>25243803>is better offby what standard?100 years ago we had the Gilded age in America. We haven't achieved greater wealth equality.
You're welcome. It's crazy that Pope simps have to get on the commie bandwagon just to have a reason to hate on Prochadstants
>>25243679You should be embarrassed to have an understanding of metaphysics this simplistic. This is richard dawkins tier.
The average first world man lives a life of comfort beyond the wildest dreams of previous generations. They have AC, refrigeration, access to food and drink from any corner of the globe, a endless variety of entertainment/information in the palm of their hand, and drinking with the lads while watching sportsball. No one is going to throw that life away shooting at the cops because of some marxoid drivel about surplus value rates.
>>25243596>Read Weber’s Complete Works in German too.No can do
>>25243623Thats why i chose Weber
>>25243314most Marxists are cult members
>>25243679most of it is survivorship bias lmfao
>>25243359Marxism itself is a dogma, people actually died for Marx's ideas, just like how cult members drink kool-aide and pass out. Marx inspired terrorists. Weber did not. so Weber's superior for that sole reason.
>Marxists are cultists
>>25243927>hasn't read Oppose Book Worshipfuck off dumbass
>>25243927marx isnt a religion nor a cult (although in some aspects i kinda dont mind the comparison).marx invents no heaven, no here after, no forgiveess of sins, no guilt alleviating models. it does nothing that a religion does.what it has in common with the best of religions is a commitment to here and now and changing life for the better.you are welcome to be against that all you like.
>>25243884A golden chain is still a chain. The comfortable western worker still have an interest in ending his exploitation just as the filthy rich 16th century merchant have an interest in ending the feudal barriers that prevents the expansion of his capital.
>>25243958>The comfortable western worker still have an interest in ending his exploitation just as the filthy rich 16th century merchant have an interest in ending the feudal barriers that prevents the expansion of his capital.he doesn't, at least not currently. read Lenin and "Settlers" by Sakai. the anon you're responding to is mostly correct.
>>25243964>Read Settlers
>>25243964>Settlers argues that the class system in the United States is built upon the genocide of Native Americans and the enslavement of Africans and that the white working class in the United States constitutes a privileged labor aristocracy that lacks proletarian consciousness. Arguing that the white working class possesses a petit-bourgeois and reformist consciousness, Sakai posits that only the colonized peoples of the United States constitute its proletariat.HOLY TRVKE
>>25243979didn't expect anything else from an amerikan. kys.
>>25243982Not suicidal, faggot. I have way too much self worth to do that. You, on the other hand are probably brown and stink.
>>25243980Whats wrong with slavery honestly?
>>25243980this is a decent take. i mean people think theyre poor, but they dont think theyre the'proletariat' along with others because of race hate and prolonged 'anti-communist' propaganda>muh freedims!!this is what muh freedims looks like: >>25243987
>>25243964>"Settlers" by SakaiWatching that book make Something Awful lose its collective mind was an experience. We still suffer under the consequences of that incident to this day.
>>25243980White people actually built America though. White people were both the capitalists and workers of America while black and natives were welfare leeches and drunks.
>>25244014maybe i'm misunderstanding your post, but Sakai's analysis is that amerikans are not and can't be the proletariat. race is class. obviously not in an essentialist sense, but because of the label of whiteness is inherently tied to imperialism.
>>25244024>carries the south on its back>leechesbro...
>>25244053they can and must be.are they imperialists over themselves, supporting their exploitation because they can see the exploitation of someone else is worse?how long can that go on?kek as long as their masters can keep them from class consciousness. you dont have to be white to have an empire.
History proves that early adopters of protestantism were opportunistic people looking to break free from the Church's hierarchy as to ascend socially. This included not only the early bourgeoisie but also lesser nobles. So Marx is closer to being right.
>>25243884Yet those generations had unlimited access to pussy, the sole treasure of the earth. We are all infinitely poor in the 21st century.
>>25244267Go read a Tate book little zoomie
>>25243927>Marx inspired terrorists. Weber did not. so Weber's superior for that sole reason.Anons are so not ready for the coming Weberian revolution. It's gonna happen and some sick shit will definitely go down.https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entzauberung_der_Welthttps://youtu.be/wi7SRWuL4m4
>>25244280NTA but I'm 43 years old and have never been married. He's not exactly wrong. I've also read everything from Aristotle to Descartes to Kant and even sociologists like Simmel and Tonnies.
>>25244280And yet you speak and behave like the absolute worst examples of the younger generation.
>>25244302>reading kantno wonder you get no play
an uncompromising dedication to White Nationalism is the only rational response to reading Settlers
>>25243964>>25243980Lenin didn't believe that and neither did Mao. The CIA keeps pushing 'settlers' as Marxist while Mao said the white working class of America are his comrades and economically have more in common with oppressed minorities in America than with their ruling class.
>>25244358You're white and American arent you?
>>25244358browns will never see you as their "comrade" you deluded faggot, wake up
>>25244362>white AND AmericanHuh?
>>25244358Truth hurts doesnt it burger?
>>25244358why is reddit downvoting your post?
>>25244358fuck off cracker. you are no ones comrade, and the proletariat will get rid of you.
>>25244365Slaves were brought to America because wealthy landowners didn't want to pay white labor and didn't want to have to treat them decently. Denying money from white labor kept them impoverished and uneducated in the south, and they banned slaves from reading and writing for hundreds of years. Meanwhile the wealth landowners didn't even have the decency to use their money to economically build up the south, they just kept throwing balls on their plantations and larping as French aristocracy. I have much more in common with their plantation slaves than I do with them
>>25244389You have noth8ng in common with plantation slaves and I would laugh as they showed you this by caving your skull in.
>>25243292a capitalist is basically a shareholder or owner of a company. he gets the profits, he pays the workers a pittance. now if you extrapolate it to an entire system you get capitalism. market dynamics is not capitalism, a market economy is not capitalism.
>>25243358The difference was the merchants were relegated to overcrowded cities and existed at the whims of the nobility, who sat on land and held power through feudal obligations (literally food, primary resources and land).Capitalism is when the merchant class expands and the feudal obligations break down into financial contracts. Serfs pay money for rent instead of direct labour. Armies are paid a salary instead of being a noble class of knights plus feudal levies.
>>25244401Caving skulls in is mostly done with bombs these days and the American ruling class does it profusely.
>>25243716Sorry, I thought you were being a retard who meant to day "materialists"Anyway, it is not at all a given that marxists see themselves as nothing but pure material. They have a very strange relationship with determinism, because if communism really was inevitable, then all they have to do is wait, but that would make their lives meaningless and so they have to act as if their ideas are more important that base material.
>>25243718Sorry, I didn't know you werent talking about books and that you were just pulling shit out of your ass and munching on it.
>>25244401racist presumption of 'barbarity'same ol dehumanizing racist bullshitfuck off meme cunt
Man, marxists are so lame. Their entire ideology boils down to base hedonism: hounding after pleasure and avoidance of pain.
>>25244417Its just resentment, envy, and wanting to steal all the way down.
>>25244377I think it's pretty clear that reddit is more left-leaning
>>25244377Words mean things, you stupid piece of shit. >>25244389Wealthy capitalists did far more to build up their communities and people than communists ever did. All leftists have ever done with money is dedicate it to the destruction of their civilization.
>>25244389>I have much more in common with their plantation slaves than I do with themyou have nothing in common with slaves. you're disgusting for even thinking so.
>>25244419It's definitely resentment, plus fear and hatred, but it has the goal of creating a base and hedonistic society devoid of any serious and tragic pain, except when you are a dissident who gets bullied by the state, leading to a culture of even more torpid and anxious individuals.
>>25244417Communist would have never have gotten any hold or relevance if people were not willing to suffer and die for it
>>25244389>I have much more in common with their plantation slavesLike what? How are you like a slave?
>>25244421r/the_donald were exiled from reddit and colonized /pol/. You can easily recognize their pedigree because originally 4chan including this board mocked conservatives for calling everyone they didn't like a communist, especially during the Obama years, but r/the_donald does that to everyone to the left of them and keeps trying to equate communism with the pedestrian capitalist left
>>25244432I'm part of the servile class, not the owners of capital.
>>25244431To suffer and die for a vague hedonistic society where fat men shoot deer from their scooters in the morning and pratter about "theory" in the evening. Aside from its vagueness and inherent sordidness, the acts of communists are also motivated by a desire for recognition and meaning in their lives, unable to abnegate and reflect.
>>25244423they do.which is why its funny your post is so pro-marxist.
>>25244435>You can easily recognize their pedigree because originally 4chan including this board mocked conservatives for calling everyone they didn't like a communistYou had literal neonazis on here since /new/ was created. Also, why do you election tourists still think about some hypothetical event that happened ten years ago?
>>25244437Truly we need finance and bankers and debt on our back to find meaning, we should be on our knees thanking them for the grief and bondage they inflict on us
>>25244436How are you a "servile" class? Do you mean, like Plato, that it is in your nature to be servile?
>>25244436You're part of the reason why people dont take first world marxists seriously kek
>>25244437kek this is another dumb fucking postits so funny watching you try flip the criticisms of the left to the right. makes no sense. 'fake news' as you say
>>25244441China has those things. And maybe you should. Have you ever tried thanking them?
>>25244440There were "neonazis" prior to /new/, /b/ was always a hive of being as offensive as possible and that included nazism and making nigger jokes. Don't project your tourism on me, I don't vote
Heh it's always the anons who can't be bothered with punctuation or capitalization who make the most smooth brained aggressively ignorant posts.
>>25244442Why refer to Plato? Rejection of Platonism ha completely rejected in Marxism which refers to Hegel and Heraclitus. The least you could do would be to refer to Aristotle>>25244450China has them but doesn't give them priority, that is why they are reprimanded by the world for not doing more to make their housing matket climb in value since it is a major investment of banks and finance there
>>25244449I'm not flipping anything. The left criticize private property and people who own it along the grounds that it does not immediately solve their problems. They are problems because they include pain and suffering. Instead, you propose a society that seeks to eliminate those things in favor of accruing pleasure for yourself and the people you have a desire for, the workers and whatnot.I don't like it.
>>25244439>which is why its funny your post is so pro-marxist.Ok. Explain in clear language what this means. You fucking word manipulating language wizard.>>25244435This sounds like you remembering yourself and two of your friends and as being board culture as a whole.You are a hated and unwanted minority now, as I'm guessing you were then.
>>25244462The entire concept of friendship on 4chan was used purely ironically back then. 4chan "friend culture" arose first among mlp posters, then "fren" posters which either came from the BAP/CIA shit or was quickly assimilated by it
>>25244459>Why refer to Plato?Why not? He talked about inherent natures. Your other sentence does not really make sense. >China has them but doesn't give them priorityWow. If it's that easy then we don't actually need communism, just fascism, which is more like what China actually has, but communists have to be such autists about it because their dogs in history once fought fascist dogs.
>>25244461Nowhere does communism promise to abolish pain and suffering.
>>25244464Do you seriously think that the CIA started or assimilated a non-movement on 4chan? I mean, I know marxists are delusional, but is the delusion inherent to their ideology?
>>25244464What the fuck are you even talking about? What dpes that have to do with what he said?
>>25244469I'm sorry, did I say that or are you just hallucinating?
Only Marxist I fuck with is Damsel from bloodlines and that's only because I want to plap her.
>>25244467Because I obviously reject magical natures. A man is never the same from one minute to the next and is full of contradictions.Fascism is just resumption of war for capitalism and killing communists because they don't want it
>>25243179>>25243185Capitalism: Marx viewed capitalism as a system of exploitation destined for revolution by the working class. Weber viewed capitalism as a form of "rationalization" and "bureaucratization," which created an "iron cage" of stifling efficiency, with no inevitable revolution.
>>25244464>>25244473Communists are just extremely deranged and delusional people, aren't they. I realize this is trite, but when you see those Antifa mugshots and imagine the genetic load those things are carrying, maybe it's best to just treat them like you would streetcorner schizos.
>>25244470Fren like mlp it is an infantilizing movement, a wish to renounce adulthood and become a baby again. BAP and so forth absolutely appropriated it and used fren as synonymous with his supporters, and BAP is 100% adjacent to the CIA. He even wrote a whole book in babyspeak as a sort of manifesto for it>>25244475Then why are you talking about pain and suffering in and of themselves? Leftists mostly complain that capitalism denies us the right to pain, that we have to be in a perpetual amusement park
>>25244488>Leftists mostly complain that capitalism denies us the right to pain, that we have to be in a perpetual amusement parkI have never once seen that complaint in my life, and it makes no sense on the face of it.Lefties spend all their time talking about the miseries "capitalism" inflicts on usHoly fuck you guys are exhausting, you reinvent reality in every new reply
>>25244488blah blah blah le kek lmao kek kek kek lmao>>25244462hur dur I sayz wut halp?!
>>25243179Funny, both those takes are debunked by pointing to Italy. It was parallel and independent.
>>25244488holy kekerinos this is the dumbest shit ive seen ever
>>25244490>I have never once seen that complaint in my lifeIt's a major talking point zizek uses
>>25244496no it isnt. zizek isnt for you.
>>25244496>It's a major talking point zizek usesThe guy in the other thread you were all insisting wasn't a communist?Anyways I wish life was a giant fun amusement park. I don't understand this complaint in the slightest. It doesn't seem to make sense, or reflect reality.
>>25244497Yes it is>>25244501I wasn't insisting that in any thread. I wouldn't say I agree with zizek's politics but he is a Marxist and Bolshevik supporter
>>25244505post a link.also, zizek isnt for you.
>>25244508https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vydwrn_TQow
>>25244508if youre going to link me to some esoteric lacanian bullshit that you dont even understrand except to misquote, i will fuck you in the ass and cum on your mothers broken face.
>>25244480I'd argue that fascism is mainly an authoritarian society with nationalism. Like China.
>>25244519>zizek isn't for you, he's just like me so don't link anything by him I need to actually read books to understand
>>25244488Why do you think that saying "fren" is a movement and why do you think it started on mlp? Were you browsing mlp at the time? And ehat book by BAP are you talking about? You spund deranged.
>>25244524Nationalism without regular war soon ceases to be nationalism
>>25244527I was on 4chan before the mlp board exist, it arose as a containment board because friendship is magic shit was infesting everything Frenposting doesn't come from mlp, I said it is rooted in the same ideology of retvrn to infancy
>>25244496>It's a major talking point zizek usesNo it isn't. Zizek quite notoriously hates buddhism for the simple reason that it instills in people an acceptance of suffering which he sees as being conducive to authoritarianism/fascism. Zizek, like all marxists, thinks that pain is meant to inspire people to avoid it and to revolutionary action.
>>25244526pretty funny considering only pop culture videos were posted.how does it feel to suck so hard?>>25244517cunt ther eis no 'right to pain' bullshit hereyou are a fake bad faith liartry again.
>>25244537Yes, he like all Marxists dislikes the idea of accept piss down your back as rain. Accepting the suffering capitalism inflicts on you, or gaslighting yourself into saying it doesn't inflict suffering and everything is bingbing wahoo, are two sides of the same coin>>25244538If you are willing to actually read a book, he covers this topic in The Sublime Object of Ideology
>>25244544kek had ziz as a prof and read it years ago.mind updating me?
>>25244554Capitalism as an ideology is now a comprehensive belief system that justifies itself theologically in that it is held to be the Creator of "the best of all possible worlds". To sin against one's Creator is to challenge His authority. What is the challenge to capitalism's authority? Unhappiness, pain, sorrow. These consequently become sin. Just as psychotherapy is the secular replacement for going to confession, mental disorders are the scientific, capitalist version of sins. That is why a mental disorder is defined as something that makes you unhappy, or makes you harmful to the function of the market. That is all mental sickness is. If it doesn't do that, it isn't sinful and thus no disorder. Zizek spoke with many therapists and psychologists in his research and found that the biggest sources of guilt people had was being happy when they shouldn't, very often tied to their own freedom from capitalism, or being unhappy when they shouldn't, very often tied to failure to enjoy what capitalism has to offer. And if capitalism can't make you happy, you have a disorder, something wrong with your brain. This is not of course dismissive of clinical depression, but observing that clinical professionals can never blame conditions of capitalism for causing anything. Labor alienation must be pathologized and so on.
>>25244570that doesnt say what you want to pretend it says.try again
>>25244570This is such fucking derangement. "Capitalism" isn't even a thing, it's the absence of a thing. It's just letting people negotiate what they want. We don't remotely live in the world communists think we do. Leftism makes people who think about it too much insane, because there's no bottom or end to it, every thread pursued far enough ends in madness.
>>25244593Capitalism, as an ideology, is the rule of capitalists who maintain their wealth and status through capital. Capitalism as a practice is just privitized use of capitalIf people could negociate what they wanted then unions would be allowed to make contracts prohibiting the use of scabs by their employers, but such contracts are illegal
>>25244604>Capitalism, as an ideology, is the rule of capitalists who maintain their wealth and status through capital.So nothing describing reality then.>If people could negociate what they wanted then unions would be allowed to make contracts prohibiting the use of scabs by their employers, but such contracts are illegalSounds like an imposition of The State.
>>25244611>So nothing describing reality thenCapital as a concept is well-accepted in orthodox economics. >Sounds like an imposition of The State.Indeed. But it needn't be. In the absence of the state, capitalists used pinkertons. Because unions must be either banned, or the things they can ask for in their contracts must be forcibly curtailed. If this did not happen, labor's leverage would be enormous and continually eat away at capital's.
>>25244389excellent insight
>>25243964>SettlersAnti-Marxist liberal moralizing garbage. The fact that people insist on it today when its thesis has never been less true as much of the american small holders are being proletarianized makes me think it's an op.
>>25244425As a wage slave, you think you are closer to the le gentleman class than the slave class, because, like you said, envisioning yourself as a slave is repulsive, disgusting and painful. This is called false consciousness and prevents class consciousness
>>25244707Whether or not it is an op, its promotion definately is.
>>25244358Baseless post. You're just accepting the great man theory but smuggling it as materialism. Marxism is a science, it's neither dogmatic nor is it essentialistic, it progresses. Sakai's analysis is correct. Moreover like I already said, read Lenin's "Imperialism", it's the groundwork for Sakai's analysis and Lenin does in fact "believe" (which is a silly word to use, but what to expect, you haven't read a single Marxist work) in the existance of the labour aristocracy. Futhermore Engels managed to anticipate the labour aristocracy in the 1850s, so why can't you accept it today? Because you're a retarded fascist amerikan.
>>25244746When I say it's disgusting I mean it's disgusting of the Anon to envision themselves as oppressed, when in fact they're the one oppressing people. It's disgusting because it's racist and Anon is a piece of shit.
>>25243207Wasn't it Venice that invented double entry bookkeeping?
>>25243292>I don't even know what Water means and the more i read about people who use that word i become more and more convinced that neither do they. i guess it just doesn't mean anything. it's like a magical placeholder word that means different things to everyone using it. So i suppose they're both wrong.t. fish
>>25243179they're both wrong, Protestantism and capitalism have literally nothing to do with each other, and they're both brainlets for thinking otherwise.The real red-pill is realizing that it was Spanish Catholics who invented capitalism.
>>25244756Labor aristocracy are not wage slaves, they're salaried and their unions resemble guilds like the American Medical Association. Nothing in this has anything to do with great man theory, your reference of it suggests that you are a fed, or more likely using sone ai for your posts>>25244762He means it is degrading. Many poor blacks in America also identify with "money over everything, fuck broke niggas", they think of themselves like the millionaire rapping it when in fact they have no money themselves
>>25244756>it isn't essentialist>defines prole and race in essentialist ways
>>25244794>Spanish Catholicsthey were the ones that didn't get with the program, the only actual colonial power that tried to build their wealth on plunder and declined into irrelevance, precisely because of this pre-capitalist approach to accumulation without investment and trade
>>25243252Girl, both of these theories are woo-woo stuff.
>>25244877yeah, nah, I was just shitposting. Really, capitalism was invented by pre-historic germanic tribes. Whole reason it got a revival in the early modern period was a reaction against guido imperialism. Same reason protestantism became a thing, so everyone keeps thinking one caused the other, but really they're both caused by uber-aryans resisting the swarthoids' dominion.
I wonder how Marx and Weber would have reacted to Salafi Islamist capitalist societies like Saudi Arabia or Qatar. They’ve essentially resolved all the contradictions within capitalism with their religion. The people in those countries are loyal to the elite because of the bond of religion. You can’t say it’s a case of labor aristocracy because Arabs aren’t white.
>>25244358Black Marxists will betray you again like they did in the 60s.
>>25244389ADOS don't even think they have anything in common with other Africans, let alone non-blacks.
>>25244958>They’ve essentially resolved all the contradictions within capitalism with their religionAnon, you have no idea how Gulf Arab countries work. It's literally all court politics, and the only reason they appear to be united is because the appearance of factionalism undermines the legitimacy of the state. In reality there are absolutely pro-western/capitalist cliques, and absolutist Salafi cliques which hate each other and work against each other trying to gain influence.
>>25244866You have not read Sakai. Race is class is not essentialist. For example he talks in length about the Italian, Irish and South European immigrants to amerika, how they were the proletariat and how eventually the lable of "white" was extended to them too, whereas before they weren't considered as such.
>>25243245industrial capitalism starts with boyles the skeptical chymist. papism started in the 11th century and started to end in the 16th century but is finally over in 21st
>>25243252ideas are materially consequential
>>25244958Jesus bro you don't know anything at all about the people of those countries, their elites or Salafism. Bin Laden said the king of saudi arabia is an apostate
>>25244999That...doesn't change their relationship to the means of production....
>>25244999This is a painfully fed-coded idea of essentialist taken from some AI-furnished definition. If you redefine prole to mean simply "non-white" instead of by relationship to the means of production, that is essentialist, regardless of admitting the definition of white changes.
>>25243623>mistakes dialectical materialism for historical materialism>doesn't get his definition correct>doesn't know this has been adressed numerous times because people kept making the same mistake as himDialectical materialism is a pedagogy invented by Engels after Marx to bring his poor understanding of dialectics to natural sciences as a framework for marxism to operate in. It's not considered seriously by most *serious* marxists and is mostly used as a pedagogy for non-mechanical materialismHistorical materialism, which you were trying to talk about, is the ideat that every mode of production creates immanent contradictions appearing in the form of opposing and diverging class' interests (i.e. a shareholder wants more profit, an employee wants higher wages, yet both are structurally blocked by competition). Material conditions don't "determine everything", Marx is not making a predictive historicism. Instead, they are simply the main factor to explain ideology, politics, laws etc. >>25243179This >>25244266 guy is right, protestantism mostly developed politically out of trade-cities and the early bourgeoisie seeking to escape the heavy power of the church.>>25244756Dude just fuck off you're a retard and everyone knows that. I'm a marxist too but holy shit you're an embarassment, you don't even know the basics of your own theory. Third Worldism is completely retarded and is literal slop used to feed rich college kids embarassed about their identity.
>>25244958You were in the last thread with this imbecilic idea that the KSA is some contented salafist paradise. Most of the populations of the gulf countries, a literal majority of the people living there, the vast majority of their working class are IMPORTED COOLIES FROM THE THIRD WORLD. There are far better historical examples for strong religious bonds being resistant to socialist movements, but the majority of gulf workers are not gulf arabs nor salafists. They are guest workers from the indian subcontinent, africa, and southeast asia etc. with no rights or representation.
>>25243179You tell me
>>25243179Spengler.
>>25245151Like I said in the last thread these guest workers don’t matter. They do not pose any threat whatsoever to the Saudi society, a counter example to the idea that the proles will overthrow capitalism. Saudi/Qatari society has the potential to carry on as they do today for thousands for years to come. They are capitalist but completely stable.
>>25245171>a counter example to the idea that the proles will overthrow capitalismTheir class interest aligns with the Regime's stability as it enables them to send remittances to their families and to live in better (albeit still terrible) conditions than on their respective native countries. The gulf states are literal client states, Afghanistan is a better showcase of what your argument (fails) to argue.>They are capitalist but completely stableNot quite. Once they run out of oil, it's literally over. Why do you think they're so keen on diversifying ?
>>25244435Thats because reddit doesn't allow any opinions to the right of Bernie Sanders. Blame reddit for that.
>>25244368Don't pay attention to him. He's just trying to kick up dirt.
>>25244333I did, though, for years. Being around women led me to philosophy. Like Schopenhauer said anyone who spends enough time around women starts to not think so highly of them.
>>25245061>hasn't read lenin's imperialismmy fault for wasting time with a dumbass
>>25245192I can’t use Afghanistan as an example bc Afghanistan hasn’t unlocked capitalism yet it’s a tribal/feudal society. The oil thing would be a problem but as you say they’ve diversified their economies so that’s not an issue.
>>25245209Raising the mimum wage to $15 an hour is pretty fucking extreme
>>25245144>It's not considered seriously by most *serious* marxistsXi and co can’t go five sentences without jerking off to dialectical matieralism in their speeches, what are you on about?
>>25245227I have, you midwit glowstick. Imperialism is for the ruling class and it lives on the blood of proles. That's why Lenin said WWI was just the capitalist class fighting for markets with each other at the expense of millions of lives. The Russian Revolution came out of Russians being sick of Russian imperialism, and Bolshevism took power to prevent the British and French empires from installing a pro war regime in Russia.
>>25245237Marx never talks about dialectical materialism. Engels was the one who developed in his "dialectics of nature" a theory to bridge hegelian dialectics, which he understood as a general theory of motion iirc, with nature to create a pseudo-metaphysical framework to operate from. After his death, there was a brief repopularization of his work and Lenin wrote a bit on it, which prompted Stalin to declare it as the official ideological apparatus of the USSR. It was and is still used essentially to dismiss theologic and to bring a more robust framework to Marx's works but it's rarely expanded upon like in the "Dialectics of Nature" because it's completely futile and somewhat taken for granted by most materialist philosophers.There was and still is a big debate on whether or not Engels brought a genuine novel theory or if he was responsible for the overly-scientific stereotype of marxism. Sartre, Lukacs and Kolakowsky argued for this iirc but it's hard to know because Marx himself died before the work was published. What he did seem to agree on was the general theory of materialism posited by Engels in the anti-duhring given that he reviewed the scripts but beyond that we don't really know if he really sought to depart from a more socio-political reading of history to a more physical/scientific reading.In any case, the philosophy is still taught mostly in marxist-leninist circles, which Xi definitely attended too in his youth. But it's not taken seriously without major revisitations by serious marxists thinkers
>>25243179rare marx win
>>25243623>>25245144Ffs neither of you understand dialectical/historical materialism or even wtf dialectic is, read Mao's On Contradiction. Holy shit>>25245275Marxist-Leninists ARE the serious Marxists. The CCP is much more "serious" than community college groups or whatever. There is no non-Leninist Marxist movement. Dialectic is the opposite metaphysics
>>25243179Those two really don’t contradict each other
>>25243336>Nobility did not accrue capitalIs their property, both land and peasants, not capital? Just because it was inherited, doesn't make it functionally different.
>>25245689Accrue
>>25245694You think nobility stayed in place and there was no expansion or contraction of the property they owned? There weren't great families, businesses if you will, like today that inherited the greatest amounts of property and used that to acquire more property? That the entire feudal system was built around the acquisition and maintenance of property, investing in its growth to expand the feudal classes power and influence, which itself eventually underwent a revolution? I don't see any functional difference beyond semantics.
>>25245725Families did indeed expand their holdings but it was through war and marriage, almost never through investment.
>>25243526>>25243285Can you image a society where only a person in the field can invest into the field?Where its not possible for a person running a regional exchange services to buy out a automobile startup and then eventually star hire other people tot build rockets?Where the only long term capital is land and slaves/serfs?Where without a large enough social surplus of food, there isn't a will to trade vital ingredients for mere exchange mediums?Its not that different from the difference between being a person or not, is to have bodyguards. While we in modern day in the West can be people, and can even have rights without needing the monopoly of violence to keep them.>>25245725Your nation signs a peace treaty, so you don't get to loot and take neighbor fiefs, and you have to deal with the new war border being non native terrain to your forces, meaning no favors can be traded for valor. At which point the next step is marriage, which is going to outlive you as a person.
>>25245743Certainly capitalism is much better than feudalism. But the capitalist myth that anyone can just save and start a business is bullshit, because it intentionally ignores the fact the majority of businesses fail in the first year, and the vast majority within the first few years. It is just gambling. There is skill involved of course but there is in options trading and poker too. It's like saying anyone can be prosperous if they save up a lot and play the market. No, it's extremely competitive and you are competing against much wealthier and more powerful capitalists who can operate at a loss for years on end
>>25245759>it intentionally ignores the fact the majority of businesses fail in the first year, and the vast majority within the first few years.This isn't true btw. It's a myth. It counts businesses that change their name and stuff like that. Outright failure is a low percentage.
>>25245521Yes, I am aware that dialectics are retarded nonsense for delusional fanatics
>>25243179There's no such thing as capitalism. What you call 'capitalism' is just people living naturally. You're trying to impute an ideology and a concrete history to normal human behaviour. This is like making up a word 'shleppism' to describe how sheep live out their lives. People naturally work, produce, and trade. People naturally feel entitled to what they own and produce. People naturally recognise that they are weak alone, so they naturally set up systems of government to protect private property. 'Capitalism' is a figment of your imagination.
>>25246502>>25244604
>>25246517Lol what. 'Scabs' are just people who decide to go to work for the offered wage. Unions want to prevent 'scabs', ie they want to interfere with that person's free choice to sell their labour for that wage. But if people are willing to sell their labour for the offered wage, it means that the union's demands are unreasonable.
>>25246519Suddenly people just living naturally is "unreasonable"? Suddenly contracts that protect labor are unreasonable? It isn't unreasonable for a man who has to support a family to not want the wages of a man who doesn't. It isn't unreasonable for him to make a contract with a business regarding this consideration
>>25246502holy kek no.you describe a socialist utopia. capitalism is exploitation and hoarding the value created.
>>25245759The gilded age ended because it became impossible to keep up with the geographical stratification and dept creating a intercontinental railroad system created. Towns where popping up at resource extraction junctions, bumfuck nowhere could suddenly be connected to an hours train ride to get to the nearby trading hub.The gilded age started with a bunch of fat cars getting insanely wealthy over being able to expand over the slave economy alongside the building of the railroad. The gilded age ended because the economy got too large to keep centralized under telegraph and courier mail.You also see the same in Europe, but the lack of geographical scale means the fat cats stayed relevant for several generations longer. While in US the initial wealth increase means the Vanderbuilt and other ultra wealthy dynasties are by this point still ultra wealthy with a few exceptions. Which is interestingBecause in this day and age, you are seeing massive competition into tryingto corner the new predictable new fancy market. While a few idiots of the closest high end university can become rich if they don't get scammed by investors into selling out too early, while betting on what is not obvious.
>>25246529>It isn't unreasonable for a man who has to support a family to not want the wages of a man who doesn'tSince a sizeable majority has families to support, nobody will work for wages not allowing them to support a family, thus the companies offering wages high enough to support a family will outcompete the ones not offering such wages.If the majority don't have families, families become a luxury not supported by the average salary, so it's ultimately your choice to have one and impose a burden on yourself.>>25246537A system where people are allowed to do what they want naturally leads to people creating companies. Companies, just like 'capitalism', don't exist, they're just a word for a hierarchically-ordered group of people working together to achieve an objective. Those companies require people to work for them. They pay wages to incentivise that. That's not socialism.
>>25246547It's a choice if companies want to make a contract with a union for their labor as well. If they don't like such demands they should just not sign the contract instead of putting a gun to the head of labor to force them not to ask for such things
>>25246550Yeah if it stipulates in the contract that the union has the power to cease working as they see fit and that moreover the company can't hire strikebreakers then yeah the union is legally and morally in the right
>>25246560But unions are not legally allowed to make such a contract due to the Taft-Hartley act and other such laws. In fact in many loke places "right to work" states and even France, unions are not even allowed to put it in their contract that a company can only hire union labor even outside of strikes
>>25246502>Capitalism does not le existThis has to be one of the most aggressively midwit opinion ever on this board. It's not even downright dumb and retarded. Clearly some thought went into it. It's exactly the kind of take that a 105IQ would delude himself into
>>25246493If you don't read books then why are you even on this board?
>>25246646String of insults is not an argument. 'Capitalism' exists as the natural form of human behaviour in a resource-scarce environment. It's as natural as the social relationships of monkeys, zebras, and ants. The word 'capitalism' is misleading as it implies there is some sort of ideological or concrete history that makes capitalism different from what existed in the past or what will or could exist in the future. >>25246634Alright well those laws are bad.
>>25245759>It's like saying anyone can be prosperous if they save up a lot and play the marketthey can you dipshit faggot.read The Intelligent Investor and One up on Wall-Street and educate yourself, retard
>>25246666This. Also Rich Dad, Poor Dad.
>>25246665>Capitalism' exists as the natural form of human behaviour in a resource-scarce environmentNo.In a tribal society, it belongs to the tribe.Anything larger, and it belongs to the ruling class.Without a legal system and the state having a monopoly of violence, it belongs to the warlord. Capitalism requires barter to exist at a universal level, and for ownership to be separate from violence.
>>25246665Those laws have enormous, incalculable effects on the market. Without such laws, unions would balloon and increase in power with every renewal and therefore revision of their contract. The free market would sift away most of the capitalist class the way guilds and lords were swept away with the abolition of extreme protectionism and serfdom
>>25246681There must be a country without such laws for which we can see empirical evidence proving you wrong. My prediction is companies would stop making contracts with unions and people would leave unions on that basis.>>25246674>Without a legal system and the state having a monopoly of violence, it belongs to the warlord."Without the queen ant, every ant would be equal.""Without the alpha monkey, every monkey would do X"Ok, but the natural form of human behaviour is to set up a state.
>>25246666The function of the market depends on equal access to information and professional investors pour over mountains of consumer reports and countless other factors. Only a dream cooked up by marketers says an average joe can have access to fundamental analysis that they don'tAn average joe can make good investments on his own judgement but they will be good purely by chance, not due to his judgement.
>>25246696Why would companies stop making deals with unions if they depend on them? Companies can take losses for years but not twenty years of losses in one year
>>25246706Well rather than arguing about the mechanisms is it possible to find a country without such laws (if any exist) and see if your empirical prediction is confirmed or not?
>>25246696>but the natural form of human behaviour is to set up a state.No.Its more of a consequence of having 9000IQ, and realizing living without long term energy storage is not viable. And then the economies of scale WILL force a state to exist, because herding is not effective past a certain scale. And agriculture requires long term landscape management. The "state" is very deep down this rabbit hole. At this point the Saudi's and a lot of MENA rulerships are still in the tribalism stage, where the state has not existed for long enough to try to salvage itself.
>>25246715These are fine distinctions. Go to Saudi Arabia and break the king's law, you will see how quickly the 'state doesn't exist' over there.
>>25246724I seeYou are dishonest, and have low reading comprehension. I'd even recommend reading up on Laurance of Arabia if you have the time.
>>25246714Not any developed country, no. Except we saw what the situation was in America prior to those laws: unions were gaining enormous power and businesses felt the only way to stop them was to lobby for such laws. If unions could be stopped otherwise, why the laws?
>>25246763Well you may be right then, I support the abolition of all laws impeding upon the freedom of men to voluntarily enter contracts, of whatever kind, providing their actions do not present a social harm
